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PeacefulAnarchy
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#3521

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

Quartoxuma wrote: January 12th, 2021, 6:59 pm
joachimt wrote: January 12th, 2021, 6:54 pm
kongs_speech wrote: January 12th, 2021, 6:53 pm

See, this is the kind of hateful speech that shouldn't be allowed online. :lol:
Ignore me then. :P
Okay, but going through the list, I noticed at least one mistake I made. So I will quickly check the list I posted above just to make sure the impact is clear.
I got a copy of the book, I am going through it and the whole list should be fixed by the end of the month. There was a discussion on the other forum about this and someone compiled a spreadsheet that I will go through to double check and verify the English language reprint copy I have.

Edit: Oh it was you on the other forum. Your list is very helpful. What I've checked looks good but I've had less time than I'd hoped.
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#3522

Post by Quartoxuma »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: January 12th, 2021, 7:26 pm
Quartoxuma wrote: January 12th, 2021, 6:59 pm
joachimt wrote: January 12th, 2021, 6:54 pm
Ignore me then. :P
Okay, but going through the list, I noticed at least one mistake I made. So I will quickly check the list I posted above just to make sure the impact is clear.
I got a copy of the book, I am going through it and the whole list should be fixed by the end of the month. There was a discussion on the other forum about this and someone compiled a spreadsheet that I will go through to double check and verify the English language reprint copy I have.

Edit: Oh it was you on the other forum. Your list is very helpful. What I've checked looks good but I've had less time than I'd hoped.
I will post my corrections here later. Some films I presumed missing were just hiding in plain sight.

And thanks for working through it. That is amazing to hear! Thanks a bunch!
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#3523

Post by Torgo »

joachimt wrote: January 12th, 2021, 6:52 pm
Quartoxuma wrote: January 12th, 2021, 6:45 pm
WalterNeff wrote: January 12th, 2021, 5:47 pm I'm fine with
A: Does not cost me an official check
B: Does not cost me an official check AND adds an official check, preferably an obtainable short.
I haven't looked at it from a 'losing checks' perspective. I just created the list of the films that drop off this morning, but I can go over it and figure out 'why' they would drop off and maybe find a solution that is more check-friendly while still keeping the integrity of the book.
Never mind him. The importance is the best representation of the book. Losing checks is not a concern to mods.
:thumbsup:

We want to have the ultimate perverse Amos canon, not a disorganised long list of random atrocities. That's what the 1000 Noir list is for :whistling:
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#3524

Post by xianjiro »

WalterNeff wrote: January 12th, 2021, 6:58 pm
joachimt wrote: January 12th, 2021, 6:54 pm
kongs_speech wrote: January 12th, 2021, 6:53 pm

See, this is the kind of hateful speech that shouldn't be allowed online. :lol:
Ignore me then. :P
We pretty much do
that would change though if you dressed like Bogie, chased a bunch of foreigners around trying to find a bird statue, or your wife wore a slinky dress while standing in a darkened corner smoking

(we need a smokin femme fatale emoji)
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#3525

Post by xianjiro »

Torgo wrote: January 12th, 2021, 8:21 pm
joachimt wrote: January 12th, 2021, 6:52 pm
Quartoxuma wrote: January 12th, 2021, 6:45 pm

I haven't looked at it from a 'losing checks' perspective. I just created the list of the films that drop off this morning, but I can go over it and figure out 'why' they would drop off and maybe find a solution that is more check-friendly while still keeping the integrity of the book.
Never mind him. The importance is the best representation of the book. Losing checks is not a concern to mods.
:thumbsup:

We want to have the ultimate perverse Amos canon, not a disorganised long list of random atrocities. That's what the 1000 Noir list is for :whistling:
:cowbow:
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#3526

Post by kongs_speech »

Torgo wrote: January 12th, 2021, 8:21 pm
joachimt wrote: January 12th, 2021, 6:52 pm
Quartoxuma wrote: January 12th, 2021, 6:45 pm

I haven't looked at it from a 'losing checks' perspective. I just created the list of the films that drop off this morning, but I can go over it and figure out 'why' they would drop off and maybe find a solution that is more check-friendly while still keeping the integrity of the book.
Never mind him. The importance is the best representation of the book. Losing checks is not a concern to mods.
:thumbsup:

We want to have the ultimate perverse Amos canon, not a disorganised long list of random atrocities. That's what the 1000 Noir list is for :whistling:
The noir list seemed excessive at first. I've grown quite fond of it. Wouldn't rule out a completion sometime in the next ... I dunno, 5-10 years? :lol:
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#3527

Post by WalterNeff »

xianjiro wrote: January 12th, 2021, 8:26 pm
WalterNeff wrote: January 12th, 2021, 6:58 pm
joachimt wrote: January 12th, 2021, 6:54 pm
Ignore me then. :P
We pretty much do
that would change though if you dressed like Bogie, chased a bunch of foreigners around trying to find a bird statue, or your wife wore a slinky dress while standing in a darkened corner smoking

(we need a smokin femme fatale emoji)
My wife does wear slinky dresses, and I already have the Maltese Falcon
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#3528

Post by Knaldskalle »

Torgo wrote: January 12th, 2021, 8:21 pm
joachimt wrote: January 12th, 2021, 6:52 pm
Quartoxuma wrote: January 12th, 2021, 6:45 pm

I haven't looked at it from a 'losing checks' perspective. I just created the list of the films that drop off this morning, but I can go over it and figure out 'why' they would drop off and maybe find a solution that is more check-friendly while still keeping the integrity of the book.
Never mind him. The importance is the best representation of the book. Losing checks is not a concern to mods.
:thumbsup:

We want to have the ultimate perverse Amos canon, not a disorganised long list of random atrocities. That's what the 1000 Noir list is for :whistling:
:lol:

"perverse Amos" is a bit redundant, isn't it?
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Please don't hurt yourself, talk to someone.
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#3529

Post by xianjiro »

WalterNeff wrote: January 12th, 2021, 8:34 pm
xianjiro wrote: January 12th, 2021, 8:26 pm
WalterNeff wrote: January 12th, 2021, 6:58 pm

We pretty much do
that would change though if you dressed like Bogie, chased a bunch of foreigners around trying to find a bird statue, or your wife wore a slinky dress while standing in a darkened corner smoking

(we need a smokin femme fatale emoji)
My wife does wear slinky dresses, and I already have the Maltese Falcon
Image
of course she/you do, that was never in question, but I was actually thinking joachimt

why am I now fascinated by the concept of a blonde in a slinky dress, standing in a darkened corner, eating a tangerine

Walter: (caresses falcon) "Why aren't you smoking?"

FF: "I gave it up for the pandemic!"

Walter: "The bird approves."

wipe to little clay sheep doing fan kicks

:cowbow:
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#3530

Post by Quartoxuma »

While I am certainly taking this to far, here is a little run-down on what movies might leave the list and the context:

You can find a detailed description for every movie and relevant quotes on a cheat sheet I made.

The good news is: 5 entries were my mistake and should stay on the list (Between Two Worlds, Camps of the Dead, Wilmington, Jan 69, Selective Service System).

---

For the rest, it gets more complicated. As I said before, I think it would be truest to the book to limit the list to those films that have a dedicated section (either as a picture with text or just text). Including every film that gets mentioned to me seems random, since some of those movies are actually mentioned to point out their flaws and why they are not included in the sections.

Take this quote on 'Deep Throat':
A 1972 newcomer to the scene, Gerard Damiano's Deep Throat, turned a $24,000 production budget (three days shooting in motel rooms) into a multi-million dollar profit that increased every time the police or would-be censors went after it without (at least initially) succeeding. However while this latter film -- now world-famous as the prototype of "fellatio" films -- is unique in no respect except for the impossible anatomical talents of its star, Linda Lovelace (there has never been deeper penetration anywhere) -- Mona must be recorded as the pioneer and in every respect a superior work.

In this film, unlike Deep Throat, the challenge of the topic is taken seriously and the sexual activity riveted on it, as we observe the heroine in action in bedrooms, cinemas, back yards, wherever the opportunity can be created. There is an edge of abandon and desperation to her that whets the appetite of frustrated men and helps to define the film as a commercial product, in disproportionally large demand solely because society will not freely accept human activities as human.
There are no further mentons of that film. It is obvious that 'Deep Throat' shouldn't be on that list.

---

Similiarly, there are some historical references. Vogel points out that
Hitler called upon Leni Riefenstahl, whose earlier mystic 'Das
Blaue Licht' he had greatly admired.
That's it. 'Das blaue Licht' is not part of that canon for sure.

Now, Vogel mentions some films and it might be argued that in a more extensive list, they might have made the cut. For example he comments on some Polanski shorts:
In retrospect, this and Polanski's other short films (An Angel Has Fallen, The Fat and The Lean, Mammals), all made before he turned to features, emerge as his most personal, most subversive works.
Apart from that, there is nothing else. I would argue against it, but in comparison to most of the other films, these at least get the 'sign of approval' from Uncle Amos.

---

For 'A Free Ride' and 'Smart Alec' we would need to find a consistent rule. It is a compilation film and those two are part of that film. From a short research it seems that the cartoon classic 'Eveready Harton in Buried Treasure' is also part of the compilation, but Vogel went the extra mile and included that film explicitly. On the other hand, 'A History of the Blue Movie' features spoken commentary so these are different versions from the originals. I think it would be most consistent to add either all the films in the compilation or none and let the compilation stand for itself (Except for Everready since that one got a dedicated section).

---

'Que Viva Mexico' is mentioned in the book as context for 'Time in the Sun'. Since the 1979 version wasn't available at the time, I don't think it should be added. But since this probably has more material, it could be argued either way.

---
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#3531

Post by Armoreska »

joachimt wrote: January 12th, 2021, 6:52 pm Never mind him. The importance is the best representation of the book. Losing checks is not a concern to mods.
Maybe we should ask concerned parties. Let's say, list's top 25 users.
he or A. or Armo or any

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currently working towards a vegan/free world + thru such film lists: GODARD,
Spoiler
ANARCHISTS, 2010s bests, Yasujiro Ozu, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, 17+ sci-fi lists on watchlist, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
imaginary awards | youtube channels | complaint lounge | explain how big a fan of slavery you are here, ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1535 and here: ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4484
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#3532

Post by WalterNeff »

Armoreska wrote: January 16th, 2021, 1:12 am
joachimt wrote: January 12th, 2021, 6:52 pm Never mind him. The importance is the best representation of the book. Losing checks is not a concern to mods.
Maybe we should ask concerned parties. Let's say, list's top 25 users.
Better make it #1 through #18, and #20 through #25.
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#3533

Post by Torgo »

WalterNeff wrote: January 16th, 2021, 4:19 am
Armoreska wrote: January 16th, 2021, 1:12 am Maybe we should ask concerned parties. Let's say, list's top 25 users.
Better make it #1 through #18, and #20 through #25.
I'm afraid your comment doesn't work the way it was intended anymore, rankings just have been updated - is it common that 2 users in the Top 25 go dark / get removed? :blink:
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#3534

Post by WalterNeff »

Torgo wrote: January 16th, 2021, 5:00 am
WalterNeff wrote: January 16th, 2021, 4:19 am
Armoreska wrote: January 16th, 2021, 1:12 am Maybe we should ask concerned parties. Let's say, list's top 25 users.
Better make it #1 through #18, and #20 through #25.
I'm afraid your comment doesn't work the way it was intended anymore, rankings just have been updated - is it common that 2 users in the Top 25 go dark / get removed? :blink:
At least you got my meaning. Unusual for two Top 25 users to go dark. Doubt it will last long, but who knows.
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#3535

Post by flavo5000 »

WalterNeff wrote: January 16th, 2021, 4:32 pm
Torgo wrote: January 16th, 2021, 5:00 am
WalterNeff wrote: January 16th, 2021, 4:19 am

Better make it #1 through #18, and #20 through #25.
I'm afraid your comment doesn't work the way it was intended anymore, rankings just have been updated - is it common that 2 users in the Top 25 go dark / get removed? :blink:
At least you got my meaning. Unusual for two Top 25 users to go dark. Doubt it will last long, but who knows.
I mean, it bumped me up to #24 so I don't mind. :D
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#3536

Post by Ebbywebby »

Whew, I am really thirsting for the annual TSPDT update. More so than in past years, for whatever reason. Maybe it's partly because I hope the 2020 edition's extreme, overcompensating turn toward female directors will be corrected. Or maybe it's because the bottom of the list is finally in sight for me and my unseen films stick out more notably. Or maybe it's because there's no KG freeleech to distract me?

Anyone know when the update is coming? Last year's was on January 17th....
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#3537

Post by Torgo »

Ebbywebby wrote: January 21st, 2021, 9:43 pm the 2020 edition's extreme, overcompensating turn toward female directors
Oh boy. This gonna become another politics thread soon :ph43r:

I'm anticipating it, too, and was almost afraid to ask. The 2020-update shouldn't shatter up things as much and the 2021 even less (judging by the inflow of new material - of course don't know about any method changes). For what it's worth, why not let a few "older" (00s) film return there.
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#3538

Post by kongs_speech »

Torgo wrote: January 21st, 2021, 10:29 pm
Ebbywebby wrote: January 21st, 2021, 9:43 pm the 2020 edition's extreme, overcompensating turn toward female directors
Oh boy. This gonna become another politics thread soon :ph43r:
Ebby knows I strongly disagree with him on this issue.
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#3539

Post by Torgo »

kongs_speech wrote: January 21st, 2021, 10:30 pm
Torgo wrote: January 21st, 2021, 10:29 pm
Ebbywebby wrote: January 21st, 2021, 9:43 pm the 2020 edition's extreme, overcompensating turn toward female directors
Oh boy. This gonna become another politics thread soon :ph43r:
Ebby knows I strongly disagree with him on this issue.
That's great, because we're sooner ready to move on then.
:D
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#3540

Post by Fergenaprido »

Torgo wrote: January 21st, 2021, 10:29 pm
Ebbywebby wrote: January 21st, 2021, 9:43 pm the 2020 edition's extreme, overcompensating turn toward female directors
Oh boy. This gonna become another politics thread soon :ph43r:

I'm anticipating it, too, and was almost afraid to ask. The 2020-update shouldn't shatter up things as much and the 2021 even less (judging by the inflow of new material - of course don't know about any method changes). For what it's worth, why not let a few "older" (00s) film return there.
Actually, this update might still be large, given that a number of decade lists were published since the last update (though many were also published before 2019 was over). I think the next big shakeup probably won't be until 2023, though, after Sight & Sound do their decade poll in 2022, since that list seems to have a large influence on the outcome of TSPDT.
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#3541

Post by Ebbywebby »

Glad kongs_speech popped into the forum between rewatches of "Near Dark" and "Point Break." Certainly among the 850 greatest films ever made. :)
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#3542

Post by kongs_speech »

Plenty of unworthy films by men on the list too.
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#3543

Post by Torgo »

Fergenaprido wrote: January 21st, 2021, 10:48 pm
Torgo wrote: January 21st, 2021, 10:29 pm
Ebbywebby wrote: January 21st, 2021, 9:43 pm the 2020 edition's extreme, overcompensating turn toward female directors
Oh boy. This gonna become another politics thread soon :ph43r:

I'm anticipating it, too, and was almost afraid to ask. The 2020-update shouldn't shatter up things as much and the 2021 even less (judging by the inflow of new material - of course don't know about any method changes). For what it's worth, why not let a few "older" (00s) film return there.
Actually, this update might still be large, given that a number of decade lists were published since the last update (though many were also published before 2019 was over). I think the next big shakeup probably won't be until 2023, though, after Sight & Sound do their decade poll in 2022, since that list seems to have a large influence on the outcome of TSPDT.
:unsure: .. yes, that sounds reasonable. All I wanted to say is "not too many films with their production, premiere date and wide release in the second half of 2020 or 2021 should pop up", but the list could always change, anyway, of course. And maybe 2020 in the end did have more fine, artsy & TSP-friendly films worthy of the top 1000 than 2019, 2018 or, say, 2007. BUT James Bond and Fast & Furious were delayed!! So my point stays valid.
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#3544

Post by OldAle1 »

Ebbywebby wrote: January 21st, 2021, 9:43 pm extreme, overcompensating turn toward female directors will be corrected.
By my count - and I could be off, I just went through the list fairly quickly - not sure if there's an easier way to do it, if somebody actually made a list of this - there are 32 films directed wholly or partly by women, including THREE out of 31 new entries. So we're now at just over 3% of the list being directed by women, and just under 10% of the new entries. ONE film in the top 100 is directed by a woman. Yes a bunch of films went up, but most of them are from extremely highly-respected directors like Varda and Akerman, so no more surprising than the big leaps that occur elsewhere from time to time - and several went down, including a couple by Huillet-Straub which are certainly part of the canon at this point. I don't see the big deal; if that's "extreme overcompensating" in your mind, I'll just assume that every hyperbolic use of adjectives coming from you in the future is utter nonsense.

For the record, not enough of a fan of Bigelow overall that I can see why she gets so much love, but I can think of a few dozen other women directors who I'd like to see get TSP recognition as much or more. So I look forward in the future to many, many times the extreme overcompensation we've seen so far.
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#3545

Post by Fergenaprido »

OldAle1 wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 12:58 am
Ebbywebby wrote: January 21st, 2021, 9:43 pm extreme, overcompensating turn toward female directors will be corrected.
By my count - and I could be off, I just went through the list fairly quickly - not sure if there's an easier way to do it, if somebody actually made a list of this - there are 32 films directed wholly or partly by women, including THREE out of 31 new entries. So we're now at just over 3% of the list being directed by women, and just under 10% of the new entries. ONE film in the top 100 is directed by a woman. Yes a bunch of films went up, but most of them are from extremely highly-respected directors like Varda and Akerman, so no more surprising than the big leaps that occur elsewhere from time to time - and several went down, including a couple by Huillet-Straub which are certainly part of the canon at this point. I don't see the big deal; if that's "extreme overcompensating" in your mind, I'll just assume that every hyperbolic use of adjectives coming from you in the future is utter nonsense.

For the record, not enough of a fan of Bigelow overall that I can see why she gets so much love, but I can think of a few dozen other women directors who I'd like to see get TSP recognition as much or more. So I look forward in the future to many, many times the extreme overcompensation we've seen so far.
Ebby likes to troll every now and then. Just ignore him when he's in one of his moods.

I checked the Main list, 1001-2000 list, and 21st Century list, and this is what I came up with. I may have missed a film here or there (especially on the latter two lists).
TSPDT main list - 36 films
rank change title
84 11 Jeanne Dielman, 23, quai du commerce, 1080 Bruxelles
118 36 Beau travail
162 38 The Piano
248 84 ClÈo de 5 ‡ 7
264 -9 Meshes of the Afternoon
291 102 Sedmikr·sky
332 21 Khaneh siah ast
333 42 Wanda
377 70 Lost in Translation
388 56 Les glaneurs et la glaneuse
478 194 Sans toit ni loi
479 26 Grey Gardens
483 43 Triumph des Willens
490 21 India Song
500 89 Orlando
514 -14 Gimme Shelter
577 156 La CiÈnaga
579 96 Harlan County U.S.A.
609 -18 Salesman
612 123 Voskhozhdenie
640 79 An Angel at My Table
650 111 La mujer sin cabeza
730 191 Near Dark
736 100 D'Est
755 -54 Chronik der Anna Magdalena Bach
768 Portrait of Jason
786 45 Olympia 1. Teil - Fest der Vˆlker
787 45 Olympia 2. Teil - Fest der Schˆnheit
802 124 Le bonheur
805 100 News from Home
838 21 L'intrus
847 Point Break
861 -8 Sicilia!
959 Die Abenteuer des Prinzen Achmed
999 -27 Trop tÙt/Trop tard
1001 ¿ ma soeur!
TSPDT 1001-2000 list - 61 films
rank change title
3 13 The Hurt Locker
4 27 Clueless
8 213 Daughters of the Dust
14 214 Fish Tank
16 Toni Erdmann
18 Stories We Tell
19 32 Paris Is Burning
34 73 White Material
44 88 Leviathan
68 415 Morvern Callar
73 188 Je tu il elle
103 64 Persepolis
114 92 M‰dchen in Uniform
116 Dalla nube alla resistenza
119 274 Mikey and Nicky
131 158 La niÒa santa
146 561 Wendy and Lucy
157 -22 Trouble Every Day
173 178 Il portiere di notte
200 157 A New Leaf
204 152 The Arbor
208 118 SharasÙju
212 12 Dolgie provody
222 American Psycho
224 245 Ratcatcher
259 107 35 rhums
295 186 Sib
297 -51 Sweetie
327 Astenicheskiy sindrom
329 397 Die bleierne Zeit
339 57 Samt el qusur
371 124 Pasqualino Settebellezze
382 -139 A Portrait of Ga
395 Dong fu ren
409 Meek's Cutoff
449 -21 Fast Times at Ridgemont High
471 133 Monsoon Wedding
504 -24 Moses und Aron
520 -65 On Dangerous Ground
524 195 Boys Don't Cry
533 Desperately Seeking Susan
550 88 My Brilliant Career
558 93 Salaam Bombay!
567 -181 Krylya
569 Dance, Girl, Dance
584 235 The Heartbreak Kid
631 -110 Born in Flames
646 151 Star Spangled to Death
705 103 Ici et ailleurs
768 Niu pi
781 184 La captive
782 155 Le go˚t des autres
804 123 Rue Cases NËgres
848 -58 Old Joy
849 -116 Little Fugitive
850 -74 Big
865 -20 Under the Skin
914 Outrage
964 La coquille et le clergyman
968 -233 A Hora da Estrela
1001 The Virgin Suicides
TSPDT 21st C list - 127 films
rank change title
12 -1 Lost in Translation
36 66 Toni Erdmann
38 -10 Les glaneurs et la glaneuse
47 4 The Hurt Locker
61 178 Zama
68 3 La mujer sin cabeza
83 21 Leviathan
85 22 La CiÈnaga
113 86 Stories We Tell
120 13 Zero Dark Thirty
121 2 Winter's Bone
128 -15 35 rhums
140 72 Lady Bird
144 -19 L'intrus
149 -9 La niÒa santa
153 42 Fish Tank
158 18 Wendy and Lucy
159 -6 White Material
168 11 ¿ ma soeur!
184 -16 Persepolis
186 103 The Babadook
187 44 Morvern Callar
190 68 We Need to Talk About Kevin
191 41 Meek's Cutoff
193 Portrait de la jeune fille en feu
195 312 No Home Movie
197 -49 American Splendor
199 34 The Arbor
200 -25 The Kids Are All Right
212 154 Certain Women
213 71 Visages villages
215 The Souvenir
230 321 Cameraperson
236 131 You Were Never Really Here
258 141 The Rider
262 146 American Psycho
276 32 SharasÙju
277 -53 Trouble Every Day
281 46 Selma
288 126 Whale Rider
308 205 American Honey
310 351 Lazzaro felice
326 19 Les plages d'AgnËs
327 -71 Old Joy
331 24 Bright Star
341 -17 Monsoon Wedding
343 116 Grave
373 354 Un beau soleil intÈrieur
378 7 Leave No Trace
386 -98 Shrek
395 26 Marie Antoinette
400 171 Bande de filles
413 High Life
415 -24 Western
417 -19 Star Spangled to Death
418 -83 Little Miss Sunshine
428 20 Roozi ke zan shodam
432 -21 Citizenfour
436 -3 La captive
445 Atlantique
470 -3 Red Road
476 5 Away from Her
479 73 Alle Anderen
484 The Farewell
487 14 Le go˚t des autres
491 147 Attenberg
525 72 Niu pi
531 -39 Me and You and Everyone We Know
549 76 Tomboy
550 163 Eden
552 -3 Pariah
571 81 Bend It Like Beckham
575 -30 Vendredi soir
596 137 Frozen
602 -32 Innocence
604 83 A Girl Walks Home Alone at Night
607 Little Women
608 64 Monster
620 4 Wuthering Heights
629 -7 Lady Chatterley
646 133 L'avenir
655 Madeline's Madeline
656 241 Love & Basketball
661 96 Wadjda
666 225 TakhtÈ siah
687 202 …volution
702 Oh! Uomo
711 135 The Savages
723 234 Heart of a Dog
728 10 The Corporation
731 -99 The Diary of a Teenage Girl
737 222 The Love Witch
744 Somewhere
752 24 Les salauds
753 -109 Une visite au Louvre
755 76 The Selfish Giant
756 -91 Can You Ever Forgive Me?
763 -66 Quei loro incontri
766 13th
773 30 The Loneliest Planet
777 67 Mustang
780 Booksmart
789 -132 An Education
796 -72 Melancholian 3 huonetta
798 -123 Trolˆsa
800 -137 Lovely & Amazing
802 38 Mudbound
809 81 Lourdes
811 59 Dreams of a Life
833 106 Private Life
842 42 Manakamana
857 Archipelago
862 Wonder Woman
863 -73 Frozen River
881 -185 The Kid Stays in the Picture
896 -69 Que Horas Ela Volta?
908 72 In the Cut
932 59 The Fits
943 38 Operai, contadini
944 -95 Day Night Day Night
945 -49 Enough Said
950 El cielo gira
955 The Future
964 Le meraviglie
969 Hustlers
970 -104 Girlfight
976 Une vieille maÓtresse
987 Shirkers
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#3546

Post by Torgo »

Fergenaprido wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 2:05 am 969 Hustlers
Ah. Now I see what Ebby's rant was about. tehe
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#3547

Post by flavo5000 »

Fergenaprido wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 2:05 am
OldAle1 wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 12:58 am
Ebbywebby wrote: January 21st, 2021, 9:43 pm extreme, overcompensating turn toward female directors will be corrected.
Ebby likes to troll every now and then. Just ignore him when he's in one of his moods.

I checked the Main list, 1001-2000 list, and 21st Century list, and this is what I came up with. I may have missed a film here or there (especially on the latter two lists).
TSPDT main list - 36 films
rank change title
84 11 Jeanne Dielman, 23, quai du commerce, 1080 Bruxelles
118 36 Beau travail
162 38 The Piano
248 84 ClÈo de 5 ‡ 7
264 -9 Meshes of the Afternoon
291 102 Sedmikr·sky
332 21 Khaneh siah ast
333 42 Wanda
377 70 Lost in Translation
388 56 Les glaneurs et la glaneuse
478 194 Sans toit ni loi
479 26 Grey Gardens
483 43 Triumph des Willens
490 21 India Song
500 89 Orlando
514 -14 Gimme Shelter
577 156 La CiÈnaga
579 96 Harlan County U.S.A.
609 -18 Salesman
612 123 Voskhozhdenie
640 79 An Angel at My Table
650 111 La mujer sin cabeza
730 191 Near Dark
736 100 D'Est
755 -54 Chronik der Anna Magdalena Bach
768 Portrait of Jason
786 45 Olympia 1. Teil - Fest der Vˆlker
787 45 Olympia 2. Teil - Fest der Schˆnheit
802 124 Le bonheur
805 100 News from Home
838 21 L'intrus
847 Point Break
861 -8 Sicilia!
959 Die Abenteuer des Prinzen Achmed
999 -27 Trop tÙt/Trop tard
1001 ¿ ma soeur!
TSPDT 1001-2000 list - 61 films
rank change title
3 13 The Hurt Locker
4 27 Clueless
8 213 Daughters of the Dust
14 214 Fish Tank
16 Toni Erdmann
18 Stories We Tell
19 32 Paris Is Burning
34 73 White Material
44 88 Leviathan
68 415 Morvern Callar
73 188 Je tu il elle
103 64 Persepolis
114 92 M‰dchen in Uniform
116 Dalla nube alla resistenza
119 274 Mikey and Nicky
131 158 La niÒa santa
146 561 Wendy and Lucy
157 -22 Trouble Every Day
173 178 Il portiere di notte
200 157 A New Leaf
204 152 The Arbor
208 118 SharasÙju
212 12 Dolgie provody
222 American Psycho
224 245 Ratcatcher
259 107 35 rhums
295 186 Sib
297 -51 Sweetie
327 Astenicheskiy sindrom
329 397 Die bleierne Zeit
339 57 Samt el qusur
371 124 Pasqualino Settebellezze
382 -139 A Portrait of Ga
395 Dong fu ren
409 Meek's Cutoff
449 -21 Fast Times at Ridgemont High
471 133 Monsoon Wedding
504 -24 Moses und Aron
520 -65 On Dangerous Ground
524 195 Boys Don't Cry
533 Desperately Seeking Susan
550 88 My Brilliant Career
558 93 Salaam Bombay!
567 -181 Krylya
569 Dance, Girl, Dance
584 235 The Heartbreak Kid
631 -110 Born in Flames
646 151 Star Spangled to Death
705 103 Ici et ailleurs
768 Niu pi
781 184 La captive
782 155 Le go˚t des autres
804 123 Rue Cases NËgres
848 -58 Old Joy
849 -116 Little Fugitive
850 -74 Big
865 -20 Under the Skin
914 Outrage
964 La coquille et le clergyman
968 -233 A Hora da Estrela
1001 The Virgin Suicides
TSPDT 21st C list - 127 films
rank change title
12 -1 Lost in Translation
36 66 Toni Erdmann
38 -10 Les glaneurs et la glaneuse
47 4 The Hurt Locker
61 178 Zama
68 3 La mujer sin cabeza
83 21 Leviathan
85 22 La CiÈnaga
113 86 Stories We Tell
120 13 Zero Dark Thirty
121 2 Winter's Bone
128 -15 35 rhums
140 72 Lady Bird
144 -19 L'intrus
149 -9 La niÒa santa
153 42 Fish Tank
158 18 Wendy and Lucy
159 -6 White Material
168 11 ¿ ma soeur!
184 -16 Persepolis
186 103 The Babadook
187 44 Morvern Callar
190 68 We Need to Talk About Kevin
191 41 Meek's Cutoff
193 Portrait de la jeune fille en feu
195 312 No Home Movie
197 -49 American Splendor
199 34 The Arbor
200 -25 The Kids Are All Right
212 154 Certain Women
213 71 Visages villages
215 The Souvenir
230 321 Cameraperson
236 131 You Were Never Really Here
258 141 The Rider
262 146 American Psycho
276 32 SharasÙju
277 -53 Trouble Every Day
281 46 Selma
288 126 Whale Rider
308 205 American Honey
310 351 Lazzaro felice
326 19 Les plages d'AgnËs
327 -71 Old Joy
331 24 Bright Star
341 -17 Monsoon Wedding
343 116 Grave
373 354 Un beau soleil intÈrieur
378 7 Leave No Trace
386 -98 Shrek
395 26 Marie Antoinette
400 171 Bande de filles
413 High Life
415 -24 Western
417 -19 Star Spangled to Death
418 -83 Little Miss Sunshine
428 20 Roozi ke zan shodam
432 -21 Citizenfour
436 -3 La captive
445 Atlantique
470 -3 Red Road
476 5 Away from Her
479 73 Alle Anderen
484 The Farewell
487 14 Le go˚t des autres
491 147 Attenberg
525 72 Niu pi
531 -39 Me and You and Everyone We Know
549 76 Tomboy
550 163 Eden
552 -3 Pariah
571 81 Bend It Like Beckham
575 -30 Vendredi soir
596 137 Frozen
602 -32 Innocence
604 83 A Girl Walks Home Alone at Night
607 Little Women
608 64 Monster
620 4 Wuthering Heights
629 -7 Lady Chatterley
646 133 L'avenir
655 Madeline's Madeline
656 241 Love & Basketball
661 96 Wadjda
666 225 TakhtÈ siah
687 202 …volution
702 Oh! Uomo
711 135 The Savages
723 234 Heart of a Dog
728 10 The Corporation
731 -99 The Diary of a Teenage Girl
737 222 The Love Witch
744 Somewhere
752 24 Les salauds
753 -109 Une visite au Louvre
755 76 The Selfish Giant
756 -91 Can You Ever Forgive Me?
763 -66 Quei loro incontri
766 13th
773 30 The Loneliest Planet
777 67 Mustang
780 Booksmart
789 -132 An Education
796 -72 Melancholian 3 huonetta
798 -123 Trolˆsa
800 -137 Lovely & Amazing
802 38 Mudbound
809 81 Lourdes
811 59 Dreams of a Life
833 106 Private Life
842 42 Manakamana
857 Archipelago
862 Wonder Woman
863 -73 Frozen River
881 -185 The Kid Stays in the Picture
896 -69 Que Horas Ela Volta?
908 72 In the Cut
932 59 The Fits
943 38 Operai, contadini
944 -95 Day Night Day Night
945 -49 Enough Said
950 El cielo gira
955 The Future
964 Le meraviglie
969 Hustlers
970 -104 Girlfight
976 Une vieille maÓtresse
987 Shirkers
Yea, I mean Near Dark & Point Break do seem a little high but otherwise I think every female-directed film is justified. If anything, I see several in the 1001-2000 list that should probably be bumped up into the main list as well.

And I mean, as far as men-directed films that I'd put as worse than Near Dark in the main list, here's a few I noticed at a quick glance:
Forrest Gump (1994)
Avatar (2009)
The Breakfast Club (1985)
Sound of Music (1965) [FIGHT ME]
Starship Troopers (1997)

I'm sure there's more as well.
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#3548

Post by GruesomeTwosome »

flavo5000 wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 4:24 pm
Fergenaprido wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 2:05 am
OldAle1 wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 12:58 am
Ebby likes to troll every now and then. Just ignore him when he's in one of his moods.

I checked the Main list, 1001-2000 list, and 21st Century list, and this is what I came up with. I may have missed a film here or there (especially on the latter two lists).
TSPDT main list - 36 films
rank change title
84 11 Jeanne Dielman, 23, quai du commerce, 1080 Bruxelles
118 36 Beau travail
162 38 The Piano
248 84 ClÈo de 5 ‡ 7
264 -9 Meshes of the Afternoon
291 102 Sedmikr·sky
332 21 Khaneh siah ast
333 42 Wanda
377 70 Lost in Translation
388 56 Les glaneurs et la glaneuse
478 194 Sans toit ni loi
479 26 Grey Gardens
483 43 Triumph des Willens
490 21 India Song
500 89 Orlando
514 -14 Gimme Shelter
577 156 La CiÈnaga
579 96 Harlan County U.S.A.
609 -18 Salesman
612 123 Voskhozhdenie
640 79 An Angel at My Table
650 111 La mujer sin cabeza
730 191 Near Dark
736 100 D'Est
755 -54 Chronik der Anna Magdalena Bach
768 Portrait of Jason
786 45 Olympia 1. Teil - Fest der Vˆlker
787 45 Olympia 2. Teil - Fest der Schˆnheit
802 124 Le bonheur
805 100 News from Home
838 21 L'intrus
847 Point Break
861 -8 Sicilia!
959 Die Abenteuer des Prinzen Achmed
999 -27 Trop tÙt/Trop tard
1001 ¿ ma soeur!
TSPDT 1001-2000 list - 61 films
rank change title
3 13 The Hurt Locker
4 27 Clueless
8 213 Daughters of the Dust
14 214 Fish Tank
16 Toni Erdmann
18 Stories We Tell
19 32 Paris Is Burning
34 73 White Material
44 88 Leviathan
68 415 Morvern Callar
73 188 Je tu il elle
103 64 Persepolis
114 92 M‰dchen in Uniform
116 Dalla nube alla resistenza
119 274 Mikey and Nicky
131 158 La niÒa santa
146 561 Wendy and Lucy
157 -22 Trouble Every Day
173 178 Il portiere di notte
200 157 A New Leaf
204 152 The Arbor
208 118 SharasÙju
212 12 Dolgie provody
222 American Psycho
224 245 Ratcatcher
259 107 35 rhums
295 186 Sib
297 -51 Sweetie
327 Astenicheskiy sindrom
329 397 Die bleierne Zeit
339 57 Samt el qusur
371 124 Pasqualino Settebellezze
382 -139 A Portrait of Ga
395 Dong fu ren
409 Meek's Cutoff
449 -21 Fast Times at Ridgemont High
471 133 Monsoon Wedding
504 -24 Moses und Aron
520 -65 On Dangerous Ground
524 195 Boys Don't Cry
533 Desperately Seeking Susan
550 88 My Brilliant Career
558 93 Salaam Bombay!
567 -181 Krylya
569 Dance, Girl, Dance
584 235 The Heartbreak Kid
631 -110 Born in Flames
646 151 Star Spangled to Death
705 103 Ici et ailleurs
768 Niu pi
781 184 La captive
782 155 Le go˚t des autres
804 123 Rue Cases NËgres
848 -58 Old Joy
849 -116 Little Fugitive
850 -74 Big
865 -20 Under the Skin
914 Outrage
964 La coquille et le clergyman
968 -233 A Hora da Estrela
1001 The Virgin Suicides
TSPDT 21st C list - 127 films
rank change title
12 -1 Lost in Translation
36 66 Toni Erdmann
38 -10 Les glaneurs et la glaneuse
47 4 The Hurt Locker
61 178 Zama
68 3 La mujer sin cabeza
83 21 Leviathan
85 22 La CiÈnaga
113 86 Stories We Tell
120 13 Zero Dark Thirty
121 2 Winter's Bone
128 -15 35 rhums
140 72 Lady Bird
144 -19 L'intrus
149 -9 La niÒa santa
153 42 Fish Tank
158 18 Wendy and Lucy
159 -6 White Material
168 11 ¿ ma soeur!
184 -16 Persepolis
186 103 The Babadook
187 44 Morvern Callar
190 68 We Need to Talk About Kevin
191 41 Meek's Cutoff
193 Portrait de la jeune fille en feu
195 312 No Home Movie
197 -49 American Splendor
199 34 The Arbor
200 -25 The Kids Are All Right
212 154 Certain Women
213 71 Visages villages
215 The Souvenir
230 321 Cameraperson
236 131 You Were Never Really Here
258 141 The Rider
262 146 American Psycho
276 32 SharasÙju
277 -53 Trouble Every Day
281 46 Selma
288 126 Whale Rider
308 205 American Honey
310 351 Lazzaro felice
326 19 Les plages d'AgnËs
327 -71 Old Joy
331 24 Bright Star
341 -17 Monsoon Wedding
343 116 Grave
373 354 Un beau soleil intÈrieur
378 7 Leave No Trace
386 -98 Shrek
395 26 Marie Antoinette
400 171 Bande de filles
413 High Life
415 -24 Western
417 -19 Star Spangled to Death
418 -83 Little Miss Sunshine
428 20 Roozi ke zan shodam
432 -21 Citizenfour
436 -3 La captive
445 Atlantique
470 -3 Red Road
476 5 Away from Her
479 73 Alle Anderen
484 The Farewell
487 14 Le go˚t des autres
491 147 Attenberg
525 72 Niu pi
531 -39 Me and You and Everyone We Know
549 76 Tomboy
550 163 Eden
552 -3 Pariah
571 81 Bend It Like Beckham
575 -30 Vendredi soir
596 137 Frozen
602 -32 Innocence
604 83 A Girl Walks Home Alone at Night
607 Little Women
608 64 Monster
620 4 Wuthering Heights
629 -7 Lady Chatterley
646 133 L'avenir
655 Madeline's Madeline
656 241 Love & Basketball
661 96 Wadjda
666 225 TakhtÈ siah
687 202 …volution
702 Oh! Uomo
711 135 The Savages
723 234 Heart of a Dog
728 10 The Corporation
731 -99 The Diary of a Teenage Girl
737 222 The Love Witch
744 Somewhere
752 24 Les salauds
753 -109 Une visite au Louvre
755 76 The Selfish Giant
756 -91 Can You Ever Forgive Me?
763 -66 Quei loro incontri
766 13th
773 30 The Loneliest Planet
777 67 Mustang
780 Booksmart
789 -132 An Education
796 -72 Melancholian 3 huonetta
798 -123 Trolˆsa
800 -137 Lovely & Amazing
802 38 Mudbound
809 81 Lourdes
811 59 Dreams of a Life
833 106 Private Life
842 42 Manakamana
857 Archipelago
862 Wonder Woman
863 -73 Frozen River
881 -185 The Kid Stays in the Picture
896 -69 Que Horas Ela Volta?
908 72 In the Cut
932 59 The Fits
943 38 Operai, contadini
944 -95 Day Night Day Night
945 -49 Enough Said
950 El cielo gira
955 The Future
964 Le meraviglie
969 Hustlers
970 -104 Girlfight
976 Une vieille maÓtresse
987 Shirkers
Yea, I mean Near Dark & Point Break do seem a little high but otherwise I think every female-directed film is justified. If anything, I see several in the 1001-2000 list that should probably be bumped up into the main list as well.

And I mean, as far as men-directed films that I'd put as worse than Near Dark in the main list, here's a few I noticed at a quick glance:
Forrest Gump (1994)
Avatar (2009)
The Breakfast Club (1985)
Sound of Music (1965) [FIGHT ME]
Starship Troopers (1997)

I'm sure there's more as well.
Agreed with this...not sure what Ebby’s deal is, but I think he’s way off-base with those comments.

But flavo, I WILL fight you on Starship Troopers. :D Agreed about the rest of those films you mention.
I’m to remember every man I've seen fall into a plate of spaghetti???

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#3549

Post by Ebbywebby »

I didn't expect my single sentence to cause this much clamor but, OK, if you insist....

What's exasperating about this ongoing "female director" issue is that it's all post-game show. Instead of worrying about giving female directors more chances to make great films, people worry about straining to praise (or overpraise) the female-directed films that do come out. Or the Oscar nominations for Best Director are announced, and people howl about the shortage of female nominations "in theory" without making a nuts-and-bolts case for whichever male nominations they believe were undeserved. Because that's how the Hollywood hype machine goes. Praise everything, but be sure not to step on any toes.

I quickly scanned last year's TSPDT list, and it looks like every female-directed film on the list except "Meshes of the Afternoon" (which ranks so high that there isn't much room to grow) rose on the list between 2019 and 2020. Many of them shot up about 100 slots! The two Straub/Huillet films dipped a little bit, but those have a male co-director (and am I NOT a fan).

If the TSPDT list has 36 female-directed films out of 1,000 (Ferg's tally), this instinctively sounds like, wow, very few. But if you re-state this as "In the entire course of film history, there were about 27 great male-directed films released for every great female-directed film," this sounds pretty reasonable. Considering the hard facts of who has been able to direct major films. You can protest that the gap is unfair, but it's about what happened.

TCM has been pushing female-directed films HARD in recent times, but I looked up the less-known films I hadn't seen and found few that enticed me. I watched "Born in Flames" and "The Watermelon Woman," hoping to be enthralled. Nah. The only ones coming to mind that solidly impressed me were "Daughters of the Dust," "Salaam Bombay," "Loving Couples," "Araya" and "My Brilliant Career." And I wouldn't boldly insist those be TSPDT'ed -- certainly not the obscure "Loving Couples." I still have "Krane's Confectionery" unwatched in my DVR, but who's going to claim that's one of the 1,000 greatest films?

I seem to like Lina Wertmuller more than most folks do, and would be happy with "Seven Beauties," "Swept Away" or "Love & Anarchy" being added. But not much else comes to mind that isn't already ranked. I love Varda, but four TSPDT slots is enough. I thought "Monsoon Wedding," "Mustang," "The Lure," "Heart of a Dog," "Big," "Fruit of Paradise," "Winter's Bone," "Antonia's Line" and "Proof" were great (among others), but they may not have enough enduring renown to demand inclusion. I just skimmed my 750-ish checks from ICM's three large "Directed by Women" lists, but not many of them seem like top-drawer historical landmarks. A lot of them were shorts, even.

From the ICM forum's female-director poll, these are the top 20 films not on the TSPDT list.

American Psycho
The Meetings of Anna
Lady Bird
Fish Tank
Clueless
My 20th Century
Toni Erdmann
Araya
Stories We Tell
Little Miss Sunshine
Persepolis
Wadjda
Ratcatcher
Tomboy
Meek's Cutoff
Shrek
Vendredi Soir
The Beaches of Agnes
The Hurt Locker
Mustang

Doesn't seem to me like more than three or four of those have the clout to be TSPDT contenders. And that's the top of the poll!

I also thought "Portrait of a Lady on Fire" was woefully overrated (oh, what a boring, boring lead actress) and dread the likelihood of it being added to the new list.

Saw "First Cow" in recent weeks and liked it a lot.
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#3550

Post by xianjiro »

Ebbywebby wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 11:23 pm Instead of worrying about giving female directors more chances to make great films, people worry about straining to praise (or overpraise) the female-directed films that do come out.
I think this is really the key.

And while this has nothing to do with TSPDT and the like, I do find myself wondering about casting choices when watching movies. The same can be said for actors of color: Instead of worrying about giving actors of color more chances to make great films, people worry about straining to praise (or overpraise) the actors of color in films that do come out.

Maybe some of this "blame" lies at the feet of the whole awards industry and it's too often made-for-TV spectacle.
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#3551

Post by Onderhond »

xianjiro wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 12:27 am people worry about straining to praise (or overpraise) the actors of color in films that do come out.
But it is what people are "directed" to do, no? Make the studios know you love to see minority representation and they'll answer the call.
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#3552

Post by Knaldskalle »

Onderhond wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 8:16 am
xianjiro wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 12:27 am people worry about straining to praise (or overpraise) the actors of color in films that do come out.
But it is what people are "directed" to do, no? Make the studios know you love to see minority representation and they'll answer the call.
It seems like we're entering chicken and egg territory, no?
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#3553

Post by xianjiro »

Knaldskalle wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 5:02 pm
Onderhond wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 8:16 am
xianjiro wrote: January 23rd, 2021, 12:27 am people worry about straining to praise (or overpraise) the actors of color in films that do come out.
But it is what people are "directed" to do, no? Make the studios know you love to see minority representation and they'll answer the call.
It seems like we're entering chicken and egg territory, no?
Well yes, absolutely. Hollywood, while they do do it, hates to lose money and I think that's often the reason for the hiring/casting decisions that are made. They want to go with people who are box office because first and foremost, they want to make money off the film. But if others (POC, women, LGBTQ) don't have experience, they can't be hired.

I think that critics and the audience make a big deal, well, first off, it is a big deal when you see people like you. I can't tell you how exciting and mind-blowing it was when Christopher Eccleston and John Barrowman had their Big Gay Kiss on Dr Who. Sure, that doesn't mean much unless 1) you're queer and 2) your a fan of the show, but to those of us who are both 1 & 2, it was a bit mind-blowing. So some of the excitement is real and doesn't depend on the film being good (like Tangerine was, it was a big deal to see a trans actor in a trans role) and clearly there were too reasons why Black Panther got so much buzz: 1) people enjoyed it, but 2) for the first time Black people saw people like themselves on the screen exactly where dozens of white character usually are. It might not be right or the best, but it's a step.

So, people make lots of fuss. Maybe some critics decided to reevaluate some movie or maybe TSPDT decided to look for different critics/lists to include more examples of the work women are doing. I just don't see how and why that's a bad thing. After all, on a list of 1000 titles (plus the next 1000 as well), there is undoubtably going to some stuff everyone won't agree with. Is Shawshank still #1 on IMDb? INSANITY! :circle:
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#3554

Post by Lilarcor »

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#3555

Post by max-scl »

Lilarcor wrote: January 25th, 2021, 9:11 pm New Guldbagge winner:
https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/spring+uje+spring/
Thanks, updated!
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#3556

Post by Nathan Treadway »

Da 5 Bloods named best film by National Board of Review.

https://nationalboardofreview.org/2021/ ... d-winners/
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#3557

Post by joachimt »

Nathan Treadway wrote: January 26th, 2021, 7:02 pm Da 5 Bloods named best film by National Board of Review.

https://nationalboardofreview.org/2021/ ... d-winners/
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Coryn
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#3558

Post by Coryn »

Not sure if this was known yet but: Belgium's Magritte awards cancels 2021 edition due to Covid-19.

Which means no new addition this year to this list:
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/belg ... best+film/
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#3559

Post by hurluberlu »

Nathan Treadway wrote: January 26th, 2021, 7:02 pm Da 5 Bloods named best film by National Board of Review.

https://nationalboardofreview.org/2021/ ... d-winners/
:blink:
seems no one in the US dares to tell Spike Lee he made a very average film
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#3560

Post by dirty_score »

Coryn wrote: January 26th, 2021, 7:17 pm Not sure if this was known yet but: Belgium's Magritte awards cancels 2021 edition due to Covid-19.

Which means no new addition this year to this list:
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/belg ... best+film/
What about the Ensor's? That list is quite a mess.
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