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Official lists updates

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Re: Official lists updates

#2881

Post by Onderhond » April 24th, 2020, 8:44 pm

It's a better list than the previous one, just keep it.

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#2882

Post by xianjiro » April 24th, 2020, 11:29 pm

One user's better is another's pos. :cowbow:

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#2883

Post by Onderhond » April 24th, 2020, 11:37 pm

xianjiro wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 11:29 pm
One user's better is another's pos. :cowbow:
True, and with 190 passes, I think I deserve a better :hug:

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#2884

Post by xianjiro » April 24th, 2020, 11:42 pm

Onderhond wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 11:37 pm
xianjiro wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 11:29 pm
One user's better is another's pos. :cowbow:
True, and with 190 passes, I think I deserve a better :hug:
:hug: :hug: :hug: with :cheers:

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#2885

Post by joachimt » April 25th, 2020, 7:34 am

joachimt wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 8:28 pm
mjf314 wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 8:01 pm
How many people participated in the FOK poll in past years?
I'll dig tomorrow.
This is what I could find:

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#2886

Post by erde » April 25th, 2020, 7:49 am

Thank you for the stats! With those numbers, I also definitely think that the FOK list should be reverted to the original adoption, like the other closed-down tribute lists (Moviesense and Filmtotaal).
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#2887

Post by Fergenaprido » April 25th, 2020, 9:49 am

I remember FilmTotaal reverting... I didn't realize Moviesense did as well; there's only one version of the list on icm so I think it's always been a static list.

FOK was first added to icm in 2009, which I'm guessing is the same list as the 2009 version with 120 voters. Not sure when it became official, or which version was active when the switch happened. Dwindling numbers does indeed suggest reverting is an option, but not sure which version would be the best to revert to: Most recent (2017), version at adoption (20??), version at addition to icm (2009), or first version ever [and with the most participants] (2006)?

Also the laptop issue explains why I haven't seen Lakigigar around for a while.

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#2888

Post by erde » April 25th, 2020, 9:57 am

Fergenaprido wrote:
April 25th, 2020, 9:49 am
I remember FilmTotaal reverting... I didn't realize Moviesense did as well; there's only one version of the list on icm so I think it's always been a static list.

FOK was first added to icm in 2009, which I'm guessing is the same list as the 2009 version with 120 voters. Not sure when it became official, or which version was active when the switch happened. Dwindling numbers does indeed suggest reverting is an option, but not sure which version would be the best to revert to: Most recent (2017), version at adoption (20??), version at addition to icm (2009), or first version ever [and with the most participants] (2006)?

Also the laptop issue explains why I haven't seen Lakigigar around for a while.
I just made an assumption about Moviesense; I thought that it was like the other, yearly updated tribute lists. I was probably wrong.
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#2889

Post by Traveller » April 25th, 2020, 11:15 am

Systemsprenger (2019) won the Lola Award yesterday.

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#2890

Post by joachimt » April 25th, 2020, 12:07 pm

Traveller wrote:
April 25th, 2020, 11:15 am
Systemsprenger (2019) won the Lola Award yesterday.

Source
Done. Thanks.
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#2891

Post by joachimt » April 25th, 2020, 12:08 pm

Fergenaprido wrote:
April 25th, 2020, 9:49 am
FOK was first added to icm in 2009, which I'm guessing is the same list as the 2009 version with 120 voters. Not sure when it became official, or which version was active when the switch happened. Dwindling numbers does indeed suggest reverting is an option, but not sure which version would be the best to revert to: Most recent (2017), version at adoption (20??), version at addition to icm (2009), or first version ever [and with the most participants] (2006)?
Maybe Erik knows. I'll ask him.
Not saying we have decided to revert, btw. Let's discuss it with the other mods.
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#2892

Post by joachimt » April 25th, 2020, 12:18 pm

joachimt wrote:
April 25th, 2020, 12:08 pm
Fergenaprido wrote:
April 25th, 2020, 9:49 am
FOK was first added to icm in 2009, which I'm guessing is the same list as the 2009 version with 120 voters. Not sure when it became official, or which version was active when the switch happened. Dwindling numbers does indeed suggest reverting is an option, but not sure which version would be the best to revert to: Most recent (2017), version at adoption (20??), version at addition to icm (2009), or first version ever [and with the most participants] (2006)?
Maybe Erik knows. I'll ask him.
Not saying we have decided to revert, btw. Let's discuss it with the other mods.
First edition on iCM is the edition that was added as official list. Erik added it himself in the first place.
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#2893

Post by Lonewolf2003 » April 25th, 2020, 12:48 pm

I support the decision to freeze the FOK! list. The first edition than seems to be the best edition to revert it back to. Or the 2014 one, cause that's the last there was a reasonable amount of voters still.

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#2894

Post by joachimt » April 25th, 2020, 3:15 pm

joachimt wrote:
April 25th, 2020, 7:34 am
joachimt wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 8:28 pm
mjf314 wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 8:01 pm
How many people participated in the FOK poll in past years?
I'll dig tomorrow.
This is what I could find:

Image
2018 had 36 votes. I just ran into it on the mods-board.
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#2895

Post by GruesomeTwosome » April 25th, 2020, 6:29 pm

Traveller wrote:
April 25th, 2020, 11:15 am
Systemsprenger (2019) won the Lola Award yesterday.

Source
Nice, I watched that on Netflix a month or two ago and really liked it.
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#2896

Post by xianjiro » April 25th, 2020, 11:07 pm

GruesomeTwosome wrote:
April 25th, 2020, 6:29 pm
Traveller wrote:
April 25th, 2020, 11:15 am
Systemsprenger (2019) won the Lola Award yesterday.

Source
Nice, I watched that on Netflix a month or two ago and really liked it.
Thanks for mentioning it's on Netflix - just added to my watchlist. :thumbsup:

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#2897

Post by Onderhond » April 28th, 2020, 11:05 am

Just noticed that we could scrap the Sight & Sound's The Greatest Films of All Time list and not a single film would lose official status.

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#2898

Post by joachimt » April 28th, 2020, 11:16 am

Onderhond wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 11:05 am
Just noticed that we could scrap the Sight & Sound's The Greatest Films of All Time list and not a single film would lose official status.
And what's your point? :P
Are you surprised by this?
Do you propose to remove official status on this list?
Or do you plan to work on this list, because no movie will lose official status if it falls off in 2022 and that's very important for a checkwhore like you? :lol:
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#2899

Post by Onderhond » April 28th, 2020, 11:22 am

Answer A: I'm surprised by this. I know there's a lot of overlap, but never realized there was a list that didn't have a single unique entry on it. Especially not a big one like that. Even TSPDT has a unique check!

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#2900

Post by Teproc » April 28th, 2020, 11:35 am

Well, S&S is basically doubled by TSPDT specifically, since S&S ballots are very heavily weighted there. I can think of a few other lists that would fit this definition though. Some IMDb lists and the Empire World Cinema list for example, but S&S is probably the longest like that.

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#2901

Post by Onderhond » April 28th, 2020, 12:52 pm

Even the Empire 100 has one unique.

The IMDb ones are mostly full overlaps too, but since they are there are as short entry-level lists, that's pretty normal (probably even expected. An 800+ films giant though, doesn't sound like it adds much.

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#2902

Post by Teproc » April 28th, 2020, 1:04 pm

Right, should have checked that.

S&S is really one of the most famous films lists, one I knew about long before hearing of ICM. It's not derivative, it's everything else that's derivative of it, and specifically TSPDT which is clearly modeled after it.

AFI 100 is another example that's similar (and I did check this time, and no it's not just other AFI lists), although it is obviously much shorter.

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#2903

Post by mjf314 » April 28th, 2020, 1:21 pm

Onderhond wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 12:52 pm
Even the Empire 100 has one unique.

The IMDb ones are mostly full overlaps too, but since they are there are as short entry-level lists, that's pretty normal (probably even expected. An 800+ films giant though, doesn't sound like it adds much.
To say that S&S doesn't add much misses the point. S&S is THE definitive list of the most critically acclaimed films. Or in the words of Roger Ebert, "it is by far the most respected of the countless polls of great movies--the only one most serious movie people take seriously." Lists like S&S are the ones that attract people to iCM.

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#2904

Post by Onderhond » April 28th, 2020, 1:30 pm

mjf314 wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 1:21 pm
To say that S&S doesn't add much misses the point. S&S is THE definitive list of the most critically acclaimed films. Or in the words of Roger Ebert, "it is by far the most respected of the countless polls of great movies--the only one most serious movie people take seriously." Lists like S&S are the ones that attract people to iCM.
TSPDT's 1,000 Greatest Films
Favorited 949 times, disliked 12 times, added to 916 watchlists.

Sight & Sound's The Greatest Films of All Time
Favorited 275 times, disliked 1 time, added to 275 watchlists.

These stats are pretty much in line with how I feel about both lists, especially in terms of clout.

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#2905

Post by mjf314 » April 28th, 2020, 1:49 pm

Onderhond wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 1:30 pm
mjf314 wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 1:21 pm
To say that S&S doesn't add much misses the point. S&S is THE definitive list of the most critically acclaimed films. Or in the words of Roger Ebert, "it is by far the most respected of the countless polls of great movies--the only one most serious movie people take seriously." Lists like S&S are the ones that attract people to iCM.
TSPDT's 1,000 Greatest Films
Favorited 949 times, disliked 12 times, added to 916 watchlists.

Sight & Sound's The Greatest Films of All Time
Favorited 275 times, disliked 1 time, added to 275 watchlists.

These stats are pretty much in line with how I feel about both lists, especially in terms of clout.
I mean in the entire movie community, not just iCM. I think more people have heard of S&S than TSPDT.

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#2906

Post by Onderhond » April 28th, 2020, 1:59 pm

Could be. I knew about TSPDT way before I knew about S&S, then I again I don't regularly frequent the arthouse communities (which is who these lists cater to really). I would say that in the broader film community, especially nowadays, TSPDT has the upper hand.

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#2907

Post by Fergenaprido » April 28th, 2020, 2:06 pm

I wouldn't say that TSPDT is modelled after the S&S poll, but the S&S decennial list (and/or the ballots used to make that list) do have a large influence on the TSPDT rankings, as evidenced by the entry of Enaiois (sp?) (that unfinished Greek film that's been screened every four years in parts) into the latter.

I'm pretty sure I knew about S&S first, but only because a) I think it was before TSPDT existed and b) it was only the decennial top 10 that I'd read about. In terms of the larger list, I'm definitely more inclined to care if a film is on TSPDT than S&S, and I think it's a more accessible list to new cinephiles and those of us whose interests lie more mainstream than arthouse. I also think that the fact that it's an even 1000 films and is updated yearly attracts more people in this internet age when everything older than a day is forgotten.

S&S feels like it's just for the critics, while the TSPDT list is for the every(wo)man.

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#2908

Post by Teproc » April 28th, 2020, 2:08 pm

Onderhond wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 1:59 pm
Could be. I knew about TSPDT way before I knew about S&S, then I again I don't regularly frequent the arthouse communities (which is who these lists cater to really). I would say that in the broader film community, especially nowadays, TSPDT has the upper hand.
I doubt that this is the case, and even if it is, it will change in 2022 when S&S holds their new poll, which is sure to be a pretty big deal for many cinephiles on the Internet. Yes, primarily the ones that look towards the arthouse, but I'm not sure TSPDT has that much broader appeal.

I mean I wasn't even really a cinephile in 2012 and I remember hearing a lot about it. I've basically never heard about TSPDT outside of ICM and this forum.

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#2909

Post by Lonewolf2003 » April 28th, 2020, 4:14 pm

Both lists are very important for the cinephile community and both list therefor have (great) value for iCM Both lists are very important for the cinephile community and both list therefor have (great) value for iCM. The value of a list is derived from the value and quality of the source, not the number of unique movies it has.

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#2910

Post by Onderhond » April 28th, 2020, 4:59 pm

Lonewolf2003 wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 4:14 pm
The value of a list is derived from the value and quality of the source, not the number of unique movies it has.
Well, I beg to differ (about the first part that is).

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#2911

Post by Lonewolf2003 » April 28th, 2020, 6:50 pm

Onderhond wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 4:59 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 4:14 pm
The value of a list is derived from the value and quality of the source, not the number of unique movies it has.
Well, I beg to differ (about the first part that is).
I’m sure you do, doesn’t make it truth though.

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#2912

Post by Onderhond » April 28th, 2020, 8:47 pm

Lonewolf2003 wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 6:50 pm
I’m sure you do, doesn’t make it truth though.
Don't think there is "a truth" really, unless you mean "the current set of rules that mods use". If so, it surely explains the lack of diversity.
Last edited by Onderhond on April 28th, 2020, 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#2913

Post by Lonewolf2003 » April 28th, 2020, 9:25 pm

Onderhond wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 8:47 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 6:50 pm
I’m sure you do, doesn’t make it truth though.
Don't think there is "a truth" really, unless you mean "the current set of rules that mods use". If so, it surely explain the lack of diversity.
It doesn’t. In theory there could be an amount of high quality lists according to our criteria with a high degree of diversity.

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#2914

Post by Onderhond » April 28th, 2020, 9:30 pm

Yeah, and in theory God could exist.

With criteria like these, you're always going to end up with intersubjectivity and a self-reinforcing canon, which is exactly what we're seeing on ICM today.

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#2915

Post by Lonewolf2003 » April 28th, 2020, 9:56 pm

Onderhond wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 9:30 pm
Yeah, and in theory God could exist.

With criteria like these, you're always going to end up with intersubjectivity and a self-reinforcing canon, which is exactly what we're seeing on ICM today.
That’s indeed an (unfortunate) side-effect. And we are trying to balance this by adding niche lists and lists with different views (that fit our criteria) to increase the diversity on iCM, like we did last round with f.e, the Black Canon or the European horror list. Although I’m sure that isn’t diverse for you enough yet.

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#2916

Post by Onderhond » April 28th, 2020, 11:05 pm

The European horror list that stopped in the beginning of the 2000s :facepalm:

But no, as long as the "majority votes" or "reputable sources" are the norm, I'm guessing that diversity will be little more than scraping the corners or the same old tired niches.

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#2917

Post by mightysparks » April 29th, 2020, 12:05 am

Maybe, but if the alternative is having lists with dodgy sources just because they have lots of unique choices then I’ll take the canon. I don’t want random Joe Blo’s list of the best films only 3 people have seen; what am I supposed to get out of that? The slightly dodgier lists work for something like TSZDT where weightings and stuff are important, but not iCM (and the goal of TSZDT was to build a horror canon so..). I like that all these lists on iCM build a canon, even if I usually only like 1/3 or so and don’t really like critics. But I don’t really like anyone’s tastes, so it’d impossible to build an iCM perfect for any individual.

I’ve also never understood the obsession with the ‘unique’ films as a quality test, or the complaints about the FOK lists etc just because they’re ‘the same’. I think iCM could of course have more niche lists but I think there’s a big variety of official lists already available for an average ‘cinephile’.
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#2918

Post by Onderhond » April 29th, 2020, 6:43 am

mightysparks wrote:
April 29th, 2020, 12:05 am
I don’t want random Joe Blo’s list of the best films only 3 people have seen; what am I supposed to get out of that?
Films that might be better than the ones in the canon because they were overlooked, for whatever reason? Random mister Joe Blo might be more knowledgeable about "film" than many critics (whose job it is to be good writers and who are driven by commercial motives/availability), directors (who are often very focused on craft and technical aspects) or big user polls (who often just recite/rehash canon). I don't see what makes his list any less valuable.

A canon has as many advantages as it has disadvantages. The biggest problem is that it is self-reinforcing and built by people whose passion for film is not solely driven by quality and enjoyment. A canon can only be valuable if it is constantly challenged, otherwise it just becomes a token of tradition that has no real meaning. Just a bit of navel-gazing that serves no real film fan. Unique films are not a perfect measure of "challenger status" of course, but it's one of the best measure we have. Rather than just build another layer of canon reinforcement (which it really doesn't need), it would be nice if ICM could also be a canon challenger at the same time. ICM is more than big enough to fulfill both roles.

Nobody needs ICM to be perfect, nor does anyone expect "perfect" lists, but it would be nice if ICM spoke to more/different kinds of film fans. Now it feels like it's 75% for the average cinephile, 15% for the hardcore average cinephile and 10% for "all the rest".

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#2919

Post by mightysparks » April 29th, 2020, 7:27 am

Onderhond wrote:
April 29th, 2020, 6:43 am
mightysparks wrote:
April 29th, 2020, 12:05 am
I don’t want random Joe Blo’s list of the best films only 3 people have seen; what am I supposed to get out of that?
Films that might be better than the ones in the canon because they were overlooked, for whatever reason? Random mister Joe Blo might be more knowledgeable about "film" than many critics (whose job it is to be good writers and who are driven by commercial motives/availability), directors (who are often very focused on craft and technical aspects) or big user polls (who often just recite/rehash canon). I don't see what makes his list any less valuable.

A canon has as many advantages as it has disadvantages. The biggest problem is that it is self-reinforcing and built by people whose passion for film is not solely driven by quality and enjoyment. A canon can only be valuable if it is constantly challenged, otherwise it just becomes a token of tradition that has no real meaning. Just a bit of navel-gazing that serves no real film fan. Unique films are not a perfect measure of "challenger status" of course, but it's one of the best measure we have. Rather than just build another layer of canon reinforcement (which it really doesn't need), it would be nice if ICM could also be a canon challenger at the same time. ICM is more than big enough to fulfill both roles.

Nobody needs ICM to be perfect, nor does anyone expect "perfect" lists, but it would be nice if ICM spoke to more/different kinds of film fans. Now it feels like it's 75% for the average cinephile, 15% for the hardcore average cinephile and 10% for "all the rest".
I don't disagree with the first point, but it's just no-one really cares about Joe Blo or Joe Blo's credentials and most would have no way of judging his prespective on anything. Just because his list has films that you/me/someone likes, doesn't mean his perspective is important/relevant/interesting etc to cinephiles on a whole. I find critics to be pretty repetitive and monotonous in their tastes but we can generally get a sense of where they're coming from and what they're trying to achieve and if someone says 'hey I have this list of films from my random neighbour or [insert critic here]', I'm likely to go with the person who is most likely going to have considerable knowledge about film -- the neighbour might be more knowledge or have a more interesting taste, but why would I be more inclined to trust him? When I've looked at lists for TSZDT, the random Joe Blo's are generally just as bad as the critics, it's the genre fans that really stand out with interesting lists but there aren't many of them, and often the lists aren't done in any meaningful way (ie, they're often post on a forum or an IMDb/Letterboxd list) which would fail another credibility test. I wouldn't really be happy if something like that was official, even if I liked the list.

I used to be annoyed there weren't enough genre/horror lists on iCM but I'm not as bothered anymore (and we actually have more than one now, so that's good). Those types of films are always off to the side in the film world anyway so I'm used to it. I don't really know how to balance it out fairly, but I do think credible sources are important.
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#2920

Post by Onderhond » April 29th, 2020, 8:36 am

mightysparks wrote:
April 29th, 2020, 7:27 am
the neighbour might be more knowledge or have a more interesting taste, but why would I be more inclined to trust him?
Because you know that at least his list of films comes from the heart and is driven by passion. With critics lists, you're never really certain what guided them when making the list. Did they exclude films by the same director to look more versatile? Did they restrict themselves to films that are available to a certain public (that of the publication)? Did they include certain films to improve their clout? You can be sure though that they skipped watching certain films because reviewing them wouldn't bring bread to the table. Like directors and other film crew, critics are mostly driven to their profession because of their love for film, but their professions are actually commercially driven, so even when they're publicizing personal lists, you can always be sure there's a underlying commercial motive in their selection process. That's already a shitty start for building any kind of serious canon.
it's the genre fans that really stand out with interesting lists but there aren't many of them, and often the lists aren't done in any meaningful way (ie, they're often post on a forum or an IMDb/Letterboxd list) which would fail another credibility test
It's this idea that I find weird ... because some knowledgeable film fans lack a way to officially make their lists known, they're deemed less credible? It's weird that form seems to matter so much (though I get that its an easy, albeit lazy way to quickly establish seeming credibility). It's also a bit ironic, considering the average cinephile's vision on commercial film making.
I don't really know how to balance it out fairly, but I do think credible sources are important.
Well I can agree with that statement, only I don't think popularity contests or critics lists inspire much credibility.
For every canon genre/country/era/whatever list, it would be amazing to see a DtC alternative by an avid fan.

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