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Official lists updates

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PeacefulAnarchy
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Re: Official lists updates

#2761

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » March 13th, 2020, 8:38 pm

We considered that, but then The Great Movies (Roger Ebert) or Annual Top 10 Lists (Cahiers du Cinéma) have the opposite problem.

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#2762

Post by joachimt » March 13th, 2020, 8:54 pm

I'm done!!

Spreadsheet coming up......
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#2763

Post by joachimt » March 13th, 2020, 9:07 pm

Here are spreadsheets of the changes:
https://we.tl/t-ratfNiEUE7

The one that says "COMPLETE" includes all official lists. In some cases the title changed, but the url didn't (change of capitalization).
The one that says "ONLY NEW URLS" contains all lists of which the url changed.
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#2764

Post by blocho » March 13th, 2020, 9:52 pm

Great work, Joachim and PA and anyone else involved.

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#2765

Post by Onderhond » March 13th, 2020, 9:58 pm

Ebbywebby wrote:
March 13th, 2020, 8:32 pm
I would have chosen the format of "100 Classic Martial Arts Films (Wei Jun Zi)" rather than "Wei Jun Zi's 100 Classic Martial Arts Films."
To me these sound like two different things. With the name in front it becomes a very personal, taste-based list, with the name behind it becomes more editorial and canon-like.

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#2766

Post by PGonzalez » March 13th, 2020, 10:12 pm

Phenomenal work :) I particularly enjoyed how you changed some names to specify the particular intentions of those lists (e.g. Cahiers du Cinéma's 100 Films for an Ideal Cinematheque, or Público's Top Portuguese Films to Show in Schools).

Thanks a lot!

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#2767

Post by Panunzio » March 13th, 2020, 10:55 pm

I see the Turkish list has been changed as well! Good shout. The new list is much more comprehensive (and recent).

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#2768

Post by mjf314 » March 13th, 2020, 11:14 pm

In case anyone still wants to work on the Ekolay list, I made an unofficial list:
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/ekol ... ms/mjf314/

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#2769

Post by 72aicm » March 13th, 2020, 11:32 pm

You forgot to remove the old source.

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#2770

Post by mjf314 » March 13th, 2020, 11:42 pm

I just updated the source link.

The mods decided to count the new Turkish list as an update (and therefore keep the favorites/watchlists) because Ekolay seems to have merged with Hurriyet. If you go to Ekolay's website, it redirects to Hurriyet.

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#2771

Post by sol » March 14th, 2020, 1:43 am

Thanks for all the hard work, however, the design of the website (or at least the My Progress page) does not really support these much longer titles. I just took a screenshot of the top part of my progress list, and over 50% of the titles are too long to fit. :blink: Are there any plans to alter the progress page to solve this issue? Maybe make the columns wider (lots of blank space on the left and right) or change the font or font size? :ermm:

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#2772

Post by xianjiro » March 14th, 2020, 2:23 am

If you use tampermonkey/iCMEnhanced, see this post for help with the display of the progress page. Clearly, if @mjf314 went to the trouble to write a script that displays the progress page as a single column (so full titles display more fully), then one can safely assume the mods are aware of this issue. :)

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#2773

Post by mightysparks » March 14th, 2020, 2:24 am

I wasn't sure how I felt about the change, but I was just updating the titles in my spreadsheet and I actually really like it. The consistency is good, but it's also nice having more clarification on where the lists come from and, as PGonzalez mentioned, seeing the actual intention. I agree the readability in the progress tab is an issue though.
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#2774

Post by mjf314 » March 14th, 2020, 2:30 am

Marijn knows about the issue. He wants to do something about it, but I'm not sure what his solution will be, or how long it'll take.

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#2775

Post by sol » March 14th, 2020, 4:40 am

Okay; thanks. It is not the biggest in the world, I just have to think twice before doing a Cltr+F.
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#2776

Post by albajos » March 14th, 2020, 6:36 am

xianjiro wrote:
March 14th, 2020, 2:23 am
If you use tampermonkey/iCMEnhanced, see this post for help with the display of the progress page. Clearly, if @mjf314 went to the trouble to write a script that displays the progress page as a single column (so full titles display more fully), then one can safely assume the mods are aware of this issue. :)
But that are not something that 99% of the icm users can't do. Extremely bad solution.

Make it the standard ICM layout or it is no solution at all

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#2777

Post by joachimt » March 14th, 2020, 7:26 am

albajos wrote:
March 14th, 2020, 6:36 am
xianjiro wrote:
March 14th, 2020, 2:23 am
If you use tampermonkey/iCMEnhanced, see this post for help with the display of the progress page. Clearly, if @mjf314 went to the trouble to write a script that displays the progress page as a single column (so full titles display more fully), then one can safely assume the mods are aware of this issue. :)
But that are not something that 99% of the icm users can't do. Extremely bad solution.

Make it the standard ICM layout or it is no solution at all
So this is one of the options we're discussing with Marijn.
This problem existed before as well. Some lists didn't have the CRTL-F problem and now they do, others the other way around.
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#2778

Post by joachimt » March 14th, 2020, 7:35 am

One additional change:

I just changed...
BBC's 100 Greatest Films Directed by Women
old link: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/bbcs ... +by+women/
into...
BBC's The 100 Greatest Films Directed by Women
new link: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/bbcs ... +by+women/

Source uses "The" and this way it is also consistent with the other BBC lists.
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#2779

Post by Onderhond » March 14th, 2020, 8:01 am

sol wrote:
March 14th, 2020, 1:43 am
Maybe make the columns wider (lots of blank space on the left and right) or change the font or font size? :ermm:
At least get rid of that archaic piece of code and just use CSS to do the ellipsis (...). Will help with search too (since the actual text will be on the page), although you might not see highlights for the hits (because they'll still be hidden).
mjf314 wrote:
March 14th, 2020, 2:30 am
Marijn knows about the issue. He wants to do something about it, but I'm not sure what his solution will be, or how long it'll take.
The site isn't even responsive, this can't take longer than 10 minutes to fix. Literally 4 changes in the CSS file and printing the full title instead of the shortened one.
Last edited by Onderhond on March 14th, 2020, 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#2780

Post by brokenface » March 14th, 2020, 8:06 am

Mixed feelings. Some are improvements I totally get. The awards in particular look better and suit the consistent format.

Others are just utterly baffling to me, particularly ones from books. Like why are we giving headline credits to editors for book lists such as 'Emma Beare's 501 Must See Movies'? What does that add? It's really not consistent with the source to credit a list like that to a single author. Besides, different editions appear to have different editors credited.

And I really think some are actively unhelpful when they now mean you see the author but not the title/subject of the list on the film pages e.g. aforementioned martial arts list or the Guide to African cinema which now shows as "Sharon A. Russell's Guide...". Unless the film pages are getting changed soon, that's just irritating. It's like putting the director first on all the films on a list and then not having enough characters to see the film titles.

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#2781

Post by sol » March 14th, 2020, 8:15 am

brokenface wrote:
March 14th, 2020, 8:06 am
I really think some are actively unhelpful when they now mean you see the author but not the title/subject of the list on the film pages e.g. aforementioned martial arts list or the Guide to African cinema which now shows as "Sharon A. Russell's Guide...". Unless the film pages are getting changed soon, that's just irritating. It's like putting the director first on all the films on a list and then not having enough characters to see the film titles.
+1 on that (good analogy too with directors)
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#2782

Post by albajos » March 14th, 2020, 11:49 am

Clearly Harry Potter is Arthur Levine's Harry Potter

Editors are a technical job. I will not shut up about this

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#2783

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » March 14th, 2020, 3:05 pm

albajos wrote:
March 14th, 2020, 11:49 am
Clearly Harry Potter is Arthur Levine's Harry Potter

Editors are a technical job. I will not shut up about this
I get what you're saying, and I don't entirely disagree about changing it, but editors of multi section books, like 1001 before you die, are more like movie producers than movie editors. Copy editors who do the actual editing of the book are not who's credited on the cover in such books.

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#2784

Post by albajos » March 14th, 2020, 3:22 pm

Q: Explain your job as an editor and how you do it?
Arthur Levine: Well, my lucky job as the editor is to be the first reader and also, I try to be what I call the "ideal reader." An ideal reader is somebody who reacts as any reader would, but with a great deal of sympathy and understanding for the author immediately.

My first job is to tell Jo [J.K. Rowling] what I was thinking or feeling the whole way through the book. It is my job with any author to say, "Well, this is the first point at which my mind kind of wandered, maybe this section is too long."

The next phase, and this is particularly complicated with the Harry Potter books, is to make sure that things are consistent from book to book. For that I have the help of my assistant editor, Cheryl Klein, and my managing editor, Manuela Soares, and a couple of very good copy editors as well.

---

In short: Collecting text and be sure that the text are not too different from each other.

I have worked in publishing, maybe an idea to actually ask before doing stuff, rather than you mods are in your little bubble.


Also Box Office Mojo: It's not their numbers, It's official facts. Any other Box Office site would have the same numbers. It's like calling a list of all the presidents Wikipedia's US presidents.

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#2785

Post by joachimt » March 14th, 2020, 3:39 pm

albajos wrote:
March 14th, 2020, 3:22 pm
maybe an idea to actually ask before doing stuff, rather than you mods are in your little bubble.
Can you try to find a way of making your point without talking so negative about us?

For most books, the one who's printed on the cover is the one who wrote it. I just checked a few (again) and as far as I can see Geoff King, Sharon A. Russell, Marshall Julius and Leonard Maltin for example wrote the book so I think they should be credited as source for the list. Maybe we made a mistake with Emma Beare, but please explain then how the book was made and who compiled the list of movies that is in it.
Maybe an idea to actually be constructive, rather than just complaining about stupid mods.
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#2786

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » March 14th, 2020, 4:22 pm

albajos wrote:
March 14th, 2020, 3:22 pm
Also Box Office Mojo: It's not their numbers, It's official facts. Any other Box Office site would have the same numbers.
The two Box office Mojo lists, worldwide and adjusted, are not official facts. They are official (incomplete) facts adjusted through standardized but not at all universal means. Currency conversion and inflation adjustment are not facts in this context, and bomo is missing a ton of data which makes the adjusted list very much not a fact.

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#2787

Post by albajos » March 14th, 2020, 4:51 pm

BOM's numbers come from Rentrak which is the sole provider of Box Office Data in the US and many other territories. The lack of data is that there were no formal agreement on sharing box office results between the studios and Rentrak (it was called EDI back then, later Nielsen EDI) before 1991. So from 1980 to 1991 they only reported the biggest grossing pictures, and before 1980, Variety was the only source.

But yes. Rentrak is the source, in it's incomplete form.

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#2788

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » March 14th, 2020, 5:08 pm

But even in that case the inflation adjustment formula is mojos, other sites use different formulas. I'm pretty sure the worldwide data collation and currency conversion is also mojos.

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#2789

Post by albajos » March 14th, 2020, 5:39 pm

PeacefulAnarchy wrote:
March 14th, 2020, 5:08 pm
But even in that case the inflation adjustment formula is mojos, other sites use different formulas. I'm pretty sure the worldwide data collation and currency conversion is also mojos.
It's not. Rentrak is a global firm. It's now part of comscore. And collect data from all over the world with offices in 20 countries in all parts of the world. All BOM's data is bought from comscore.

The only thing that is their own are the news stories.

For the adjusted box office it's just math, BOM don't come up with change in ticket prices themselves. It's all historic data. I really don't understand you. It's a factual non-biased data, why are you tryiing to make seem like these stats are opinion-based. That would make them worthless in my eyes.

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#2790

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » March 14th, 2020, 6:08 pm

They aren't opinion based, but they are manipulated. The source data isn't made up, it comes from factual sources. But the way mojo chooses to use it is absolutely an editorial decision. They choose not to include readily available data on older films, they choose the way they convert money from one currency to the other and they choose how to adjust ticket prices. A mathematical formula is consistent, that doesn't make it objective. There's no more obvious display of this than
116 Frozen $459,514,170 $400,738,009 49,041,000 2013
118 Iron Man 3 $457,717,941 $409,013,994 48,849,300 2013
Two films, released the same year, IM3 made over 8 Million more yet adjusts below Frozen (probably because Frozen had more kids and their adjustment formula counts (presumed) tickets not money).

This doesn't make it worthless, but it does mean it's source dependent and not acknowledging the source and pretending the source has no impact on the list would be a mistake. A different source would make a different list.

Edit: they also chose the list length to much joy/chagrin/frustration.

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#2791

Post by brokenface » March 14th, 2020, 6:25 pm

This is a petty point but it should be 'The Times' not 'Times', for the 100 Best French Films list. No-one calls it just Times.

Personally I so much prefer s' to s's for possessive s-endings (The Times' not The Times's). Just noticed "Rotten Tomatoes's" :yucky:

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#2792

Post by joachimt » March 14th, 2020, 7:07 pm

brokenface wrote:
March 14th, 2020, 6:25 pm
This is a petty point but it should be 'The Times' not 'Times', for the 100 Best French Films list. No-one calls it just Times.
Agreed. This is a mistake. Updated. New link:
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/the+ ... nch+films/
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#2793

Post by maxwelldeux » March 14th, 2020, 7:20 pm

Are we done with the changes yet? This tinkering is kinda pissing me off - enough that if I weren't a part of this forum, I would have been entirely put off the site and quit.

Like I spent my entire morning slowly going through all the changes to update my spreadsheet and learn the new names of lists, something I had been putting off until all the changes have been implemented. And now I have to go back and fix more shit.

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#2794

Post by Onderhond » March 14th, 2020, 7:23 pm

I don't think ICM should stop finetuning the names of the list because you have some weird tic where you want to keep the list names in a local spreadsheet.

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#2795

Post by maxwelldeux » March 14th, 2020, 7:27 pm

Onderhond wrote:
March 14th, 2020, 7:23 pm
I don't think ICM should stop finetuning the names of the list because you have some weird tic where you want to keep the list names in a local spreadsheet.
That's fine - but maybe have some fucking communication about the changes, and don't say you're done when you're not.

Literally, if you want to the Progress page and hadn't been following this one very specific thread, it would be nigh impossible to figure out what's going on.

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#2796

Post by maxwelldeux » March 14th, 2020, 7:28 pm

joachimt wrote:
March 13th, 2020, 8:54 pm
I'm done!!

Spreadsheet coming up......
joachimt wrote:
March 13th, 2020, 9:07 pm
Here are spreadsheets of the changes:
https://we.tl/t-ratfNiEUE7

The one that says "COMPLETE" includes all official lists. In some cases the title changed, but the url didn't (change of capitalization).
The one that says "ONLY NEW URLS" contains all lists of which the url changed.
Out of date.

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#2797

Post by Fergenaprido » March 14th, 2020, 7:59 pm

brokenface wrote:
March 14th, 2020, 6:25 pm
This is a petty point but it should be 'The Times' not 'Times', for the 100 Best French Films list. No-one calls it just Times.
Agree. :) That looks like an error.
brokenface wrote:
March 14th, 2020, 6:25 pm
Personally I so much prefer s' to s's for possessive s-endings (The Times' not The Times's). Just noticed "Rotten Tomatoes's" :yucky:
Disagree. :) If it's a plural s-ending (like Archives) then yes, it should be s'; but it it's singular s-ending (like RT) then it should be s's.

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#2798

Post by Fergenaprido » March 14th, 2020, 8:08 pm

maxwelldeux wrote:
March 14th, 2020, 7:27 pm
Onderhond wrote:
March 14th, 2020, 7:23 pm
I don't think ICM should stop finetuning the names of the list because you have some weird tic where you want to keep the list names in a local spreadsheet.
That's fine - but maybe have some fucking communication about the changes, and don't say you're done when you're not.

Literally, if you want to the Progress page and hadn't been following this one very specific thread, it would be nigh impossible to figure out what's going on.
To be fair to Joachim, he did publicly announce that the changes were coming a week or so before they were made, and the only changes that have been made since he said he was done have been because people here have pointed out errors or inconsistencies. There's no need for such uncouth language, even if you're frustrated.

Collectively, could we all agree to maintain/bring back a certain level of civility in this thread (and on this forum in general)? I think the foul and condescending language from some users is totally uncalled for.

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#2799

Post by blocho » March 14th, 2020, 8:38 pm

Agree with above. Let's all take a deep breath. There are bigger problems out there.

I've got just the thing to make everyone feel better. Here's a picture of a baby rhino making friends with a baby hippo. I sent it to a friend who needed a pick-me-up, and he said it didn't work at all. But maybe it'll do better with you guys.

Image

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#2800

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » March 14th, 2020, 8:41 pm

That angle makes it look like the rhino is impaling the hippo with its horn.

It's cute though.

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