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Mothravka
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#4281

Post by Mothravka »

Apart from the shorter runtime, there is a quote on its entry on the TSPDT page that specifically mentions that it is the film version someone is talking about. The IMDb link there also goes to it.

But what is strange is that the pages on BFI for the people who voted for it in the Sight & Sound polls list it as a release from 1995.
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#4282

Post by kongs_speech »

That BFI site is riddled with errors. It's not a credible source.
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#4283

Post by Mothravka »

kongs_speech wrote: July 6th, 2021, 4:44 pm That BFI site is riddled with errors. It's not a credible source.
I know, but that's where the individual votes are sourced from.
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#4284

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

Mothravka wrote: July 6th, 2021, 4:53 pm
kongs_speech wrote: July 6th, 2021, 4:44 pm That BFI site is riddled with errors. It's not a credible source.
I know, but that's where the individual votes are sourced from.
BFI is weird. The page for the movie has the correct date. My guess is they fixed the date, but their data is not linked, so the voter pages have the old data. https://www2.bfi.org.uk/films-tv-people ... ndpoll2012
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#4285

Post by monk-time »

I seem to be missing a significant chunk of the discussion. Is the theatrical version that much more popular than the mini-series? I thought it was self-evident that the majority of sources counted by TSPDT voted for the mini-series. But it seems like my assumption was wrong (?).
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#4286

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

monk-time wrote: July 6th, 2021, 9:34 pm I seem to be missing a significant chunk of the discussion. Is the theatrical version that much more popular than the mini-series? I thought it was self-evident that the majority of sources counted by TSPDT voted for the mini-series. But it seems like my assumption was wrong (?).
I wouldn't say "that much more popular" but for Scenes of a Marriage the movie is probably the main entry, yeah. None of the S&S voters specify. I think the general view is that the series is just more, not necessarily better. Unlike F&A where the film cuts change the form and content more meaningfully.
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#4287

Post by Fergenaprido »

So the miniseries would be on 5 lists and the film on 2? It just seems.... convoluted, and unnecessarily so.
PeacefulAnarchy wrote: July 6th, 2021, 9:46 pm
monk-time wrote: July 6th, 2021, 9:34 pm I seem to be missing a significant chunk of the discussion. Is the theatrical version that much more popular than the mini-series? I thought it was self-evident that the majority of sources counted by TSPDT voted for the mini-series. But it seems like my assumption was wrong (?).
I wouldn't say "that much more popular" but for Scenes of a Marriage the movie is probably the main entry, yeah. None of the S&S voters specify. I think the general view is that the series is just more, not necessarily better. Unlike F&A where the film cuts change the form and content more meaningfully.
Well, the mini-series has 3x the number of votes on imdb (15K vs 5K), and 14X the number of checks on icm (2743 vs 190). While the latter is definitely controlled by the official status of the two entries, the former would lead me to believe that the mini-series one is the main entry, given that in almost all other cases of a film-version vs. mini-version that I've seen, the film version is far more popular with the general movie-going public.

Looking at the other lists the two are on, BFI doesn't really distinguish between the two for the S&S poll, I cannot find info on the Halliwell and NYT books, and the FLM poll seems to indicate the 1974 film is the correct version: https://flm.nu/tag/flm-topp-25/ (listed in 4 ballots). Should all of them be for the film, then, and just have both of them on the Criterion list (essentially a reverse of the current situation)?

I don't think that the lists should be split with some for the film and some for the mini-series, unless we explicitly know which one belongs on which.
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#4288

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

Fergenaprido wrote: July 7th, 2021, 12:44 am Well, the mini-series has 3x the number of votes on imdb (15K vs 5K), and 14X the number of checks on icm (2743 vs 190). While the latter is definitely controlled by the official status of the two entries, the former would lead me to believe that the mini-series one is the main entry, given that in almost all other cases of a film-version vs. mini-version that I've seen, the film version is far more popular with the general movie-going public.
The miniseries has more votes and checks for the same reason on both. There was only one entry for decades, when imdb split the entries the old entry became the miniseries, the new entry with nothing on it became the movie. So anyone who rated on imdb before a few years ago rated the mini even if they meant to rate the movie.
Fergenaprido wrote: July 7th, 2021, 12:44 am Should all of them be for the film, then, and just have both of them on the Criterion list (essentially a reverse of the current situation)?
Probably, yeah. I haven't looked.
I don't think that the lists should be split with some for the film and some for the mini-series, unless we explicitly know which one belongs on which.
They shouldn't have different entries in the first place.
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#4289

Post by Fergenaprido »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: July 7th, 2021, 1:11 am
Fergenaprido wrote: July 7th, 2021, 12:44 am Well, the mini-series has 3x the number of votes on imdb (15K vs 5K), and 14X the number of checks on icm (2743 vs 190). While the latter is definitely controlled by the official status of the two entries, the former would lead me to believe that the mini-series one is the main entry, given that in almost all other cases of a film-version vs. mini-version that I've seen, the film version is far more popular with the general movie-going public.
The miniseries has more votes and checks for the same reason on both. There was only one entry for decades, when imdb split the entries the old entry became the miniseries, the new entry with nothing on it became the movie. So anyone who rated on imdb before a few years ago rated the mini even if they meant to rate the movie.
Fergenaprido wrote: July 7th, 2021, 12:44 am Should all of them be for the film, then, and just have both of them on the Criterion list (essentially a reverse of the current situation)?
Probably, yeah. I haven't looked.
I don't think that the lists should be split with some for the film and some for the mini-series, unless we explicitly know which one belongs on which.
They shouldn't have different entries in the first place.
Ah, okay. Didn't realize that about the imdb entry.

Well, unfortunately, they do have separate entries, as do other films on imdb/icm (Fanny & Alexander, Das Boot, etc.). Should we come up with a solution for all instances like this?
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#4290

Post by Torgo »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: July 7th, 2021, 1:11 am
Fergenaprido wrote: July 7th, 2021, 12:44 am Well, the mini-series has 3x the number of votes on imdb (15K vs 5K), and 14X the number of checks on icm (2743 vs 190). While the latter is definitely controlled by the official status of the two entries, the former would lead me to believe that the mini-series one is the main entry, given that in almost all other cases of a film-version vs. mini-version that I've seen, the film version is far more popular with the general movie-going public.
The miniseries has more votes and checks for the same reason on both. There was only one entry for decades, when imdb split the entries the old entry became the miniseries, the new entry with nothing on it became the movie. So anyone who rated on imdb before a few years ago rated the mini even if they meant to rate the movie.
I have to stress this. In this case, the amount of votes really is deceptive.

I actually like having different entries for vastly different renditions of a work; it's just quite rare and completely inconsistent on IMDb's part.
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#4291

Post by xianjiro »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: July 7th, 2021, 1:11 am
Fergenaprido wrote: July 7th, 2021, 12:44 am I don't think that the lists should be split with some for the film and some for the mini-series, unless we explicitly know which one belongs on which.
They shouldn't have different entries in the first place.
makes me wonder what the "alternate versions" field is currently meant for on IMDb

also, don't believe we can assume anything based on checks/ratings, especially for those made before the separation. Additionally, it wouldn't surprise me if people didn't even know which version they had seen (and subsequently checked/rated)
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#4292

Post by Torgo »

xianjiro wrote: July 7th, 2021, 3:13 am makes me wonder what the "alternate versions" field is currently meant for on IMDb
Usually, just different cuts, especially for censored releases where we're talking on a few scenes/minutes missing. Or stuff like Director's Cut, which can mean really everything from 2 scenes changed to a fundamentally other film.

Das Boot is a pretty good example for a film I prefer to be able to rate in different ways; the film-cuts of 140 (!) to 200 minutes of course will be a different beast than the mini-series edition of 310 minutes. That's quite obvious.

Too bad it's inconsequentially executed on IMDb ..
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#4293

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

xianjiro wrote: July 7th, 2021, 3:13 am
PeacefulAnarchy wrote: July 7th, 2021, 1:11 am
Fergenaprido wrote: July 7th, 2021, 12:44 am I don't think that the lists should be split with some for the film and some for the mini-series, unless we explicitly know which one belongs on which.
They shouldn't have different entries in the first place.
makes me wonder what the "alternate versions" field is currently meant for on IMDb
https://help.imdb.com/article/contribut ... KCAAVFXCXH#

Here's the page explaining when a new title, rather than just an alternate version notation is warranted.
https://help.imdb.com/article/contribut ... #alternate
Sometimes, a title exists and is released in more than one versions; typically this happens when a film premieres at festivals or other limited release and then undergoes changes before wider distribution, or when a film is re-released in an extended version (such as a director's cut, or special edition). This is not uncommon, and we typically document the differences between two or more versions of the same work by adding an entry to the title's Alternative Versions section.

In some rare cases two versions of the same title may differ significantly enough to warrant the creation of two separate title pages. When this happens, the two versions can linked via an entry in the 'Movie Connection' section through the appropriate "version of" connection. This is however a very rare exception that is made only when we determine that two separate title pages are warranted. The decision to create a separate new title page instead of an alternate version entry is exclusively made on a case-by-case basis by our editors.

To provide some guidance, these are some of the criteria that are typically considered when determining whether a new version of the film justifies the creation of a separate title page:

+Storyline: Does the plot differ significantly between versions (e.g. different endings, different story outcome for some characters), or are the differences limited to additional scenes/content (e.g. insertion of additional material originally left out of the first release or other minor story changes)?

+Co-existence: Are/were both versions of the same title available for viewing at the same time, or did one version effectively replace the other upon release?

+Running time: Does the new version include a substantial amount of new footage (e.g. there's a significant difference from the original running time)?

+Cast: Do the two versions feature different cast members playing the same role (e.g. scenes were reshot with different actors after the release of the initial version)?

+Different above the line talent: Are there notable differences in the main creative credits (e.g. director, writer) or is the new version a re-edited cut of the same film with only a few new cast or crew members (e.g. a different editor or music composer)?

+Wide vs. Limited distribution: How widely was each version distributed? Was the first version of a film seen by only a few people before being re-cut/re-edited later for theatrical distribution or was the film was widely released and then re-released in a different version?

+Changes caused by release timing: Was a new version of a film created to include changes or additional footage because of events occurring during the time elapsed that from the original release (e.g. a documentary that required changes to include new information about events that transpired after it originally premiered)?

Unless the new version of a title is significantly and verifiably different from the original one in several of the above areas, we will not create a separate title page, and details the new version should be submitted as an "Alternate Versions" entry for the original film.
This is very vague. I'd Snyder's Justice League and Superman II are clear examples of something that fits. I don't know if Apocalypse Now or Fanny and Alexander should fit, I guess the first makes it because Redux got a big release in theatres along with its significant edits and F&A because of the plot and runtime differences? I'm not sure SfoaM or Das Boot really make sense given how many director's cuts don't make it. Is the difference between the film and mini series versions of those really bigger than Kingdom of Heaven or Blade Runner and their director's cuts? None of them have cast or above the line talent differences which would seem to me to be the real line between a different version and a different film.
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#4294

Post by xianjiro »

Well, if by "is exclusively made on a case-by-case basis by our editors" (end of ¶2) they are referring to staff and not mere contributors, then there might be a possibility for some consistency in applying the rules, but I'm guessing it's one of those situations of how strongly and well the case is made for doing/not doing the second entry. And since this all happens over time and staff changes ... we end up with crap like Heimat Season 3. Yeah, I know that is a whole different issue, but bottom line is these are editorial decisions IMDb staff are making. Won't be at all surprised to see things revert at some point in the future. Or not.
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#4295

Post by joachimt »

In the meantime......

https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/cruella/
https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/the ... a+new+age/
https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/the ... +me+do+it/

I'm going to see the new Croods this Friday, because I promised my youngest to go to the cinema.
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#4296

Post by Torgo »

Good omen for Candyman & Cinderella this summer and especially Paul Schrader's Card Counter .. tehe
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#4297

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#4298

Post by beavis »

Ah, so they didn't forget, i had given up hope. Nice find!
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#4299

Post by mjf314 »

I updated the official list: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/biff ... inema+100/

I also added the 2015 version as a separate list: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/biff ... 15/mjf314/
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#4300

Post by kongs_speech »

mjf314 wrote: July 8th, 2021, 12:02 pm I updated the official list: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/biff ... inema+100/

I also added the 2015 version as a separate list: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/biff ... 15/mjf314/
Did anything go unofficial?
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#4301

Post by mjf314 »

kongs_speech wrote: July 8th, 2021, 12:16 pm
mjf314 wrote: July 8th, 2021, 12:02 pm I updated the official list: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/biff ... inema+100/

I also added the 2015 version as a separate list: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/biff ... 15/mjf314/
Did anything go unofficial?
3 films are no longer official:
Beshkempir
Mukhsin
Puisi Tak Terkuburkan
Ilo Ilo

But don't worry, you're still allowed to watch them, if you want.
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#4302

Post by zuma »

Mukhsin is still on the list
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#4303

Post by beavis »

I'm going from 11 unseen to 5 unseen... don't know if that means anything ;)

I have been looking forward to Beshkempir for ages now, and of course will still seek it out. New official entry Sel'kincek is from the same director... hadn't heard of that one before.

Mukhsin is indeed still on the BIFF list! another one I haven't seen, thankfully smaller films/countries like that have survived the update
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#4304

Post by kongs_speech »

mjf314 wrote: July 8th, 2021, 12:21 pm
kongs_speech wrote: July 8th, 2021, 12:16 pm
mjf314 wrote: July 8th, 2021, 12:02 pm I updated the official list: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/biff ... inema+100/

I also added the 2015 version as a separate list: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/biff ... 15/mjf314/
Did anything go unofficial?
4 films are no longer official:
Beshkempir
Mukhsin
Puisi Tak Terkuburkan
Ilo Ilo

But don't worry, you're still allowed to watch them, if you want.
Jeez, I just asked. I watch unofficial films every day, so I added these to my watchlist. If they were considered good enough to make the list at one time, I'd still like to see them.
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#4305

Post by mjf314 »

beavis wrote: July 8th, 2021, 12:26 pm I'm going from 11 unseen to 5 unseen... don't know if that means anything ;)
The old list seems to be slightly more obscure. The old list has 8 films with <100 checks, and the new list has 4.
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#4306

Post by Torgo »

lolwat, we just made the list official like a week ago .. :D
I gained 5 checks on it the last week, don't they dare remove them!

How did they think of Swing (1993)? It has a whole 2 checks so far. :blink: From Kyrgyzstan - challengers of July should watch out .. if they find it.

Lav Diaz' Norte (2013) is a pretty interesting addition, given this is a only 100-title canon list many people will work on. 4 hours are as quick a Diaz check as you will get, hehe. - The old edition had Melancholia, so that's half the watching to do for a check.

New one has Grave of the Fireflies instead of Empire of the Senses. Dersu Uzala is gone for Ran & High And Low, mh. Mother India vanished. .. lol, Abbas' "And Life Goes On" indeed doesn't go on for this list (one of my checks of yesterday!), and also his "The Wind Will Carry us" is history. Panahi's The Circle & White Balloon, too, and also Gabbeh and Color of Paradise. I'm MAD!
RIP Devils On The Doorstep (but new Chinese input via Yellow Earth and Center Stage). India's Gaav (The Cow), Awaara (The Tramp), Paper Flowers all removed.

Quick analysis, going by my guts: Iran has to take some hits, India too, allowing even more China & Japan into the list.
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#4307

Post by kongs_speech »

Torgo wrote: July 8th, 2021, 6:12 pm Awaara (The Tramp) ... removed.
Aw, that's fucking lame. Raj Kapoor rules. Classic Indian cinema in general is under-appreciated in the west.
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#4308

Post by Mothravka »

Torgo wrote: July 8th, 2021, 6:12 pm India's Gaav (The Cow)
That's an Iranian film.
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#4309

Post by Fergenaprido »

And with this BIFF update Parasite hits 21 official lists... only 2 years after it's initial release. That's quite a feat, imo.
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#4310

Post by Torgo »

Absolutely.
And not only the 20+ lists as a stat are impressive, but also their nature: "only" 5x IMDb and 4x Academy, but many so important ones: Cannes, TSPDT (2000), TSP21, 1001BYD, Cahiers, Rotten, Most Favorite .. often with new films with high counts, it's just a number of IMDb genre lists plus all the fansites (Reddit, FOK, you name it).
Mothravka wrote: July 8th, 2021, 7:54 pm
Torgo wrote: July 8th, 2021, 6:12 pm India's Gaav (The Cow)
That's an Iranian film.
Oops, my bad. The other loser country of this update then ;)
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#4311

Post by Knaldskalle »

Torgo wrote: July 4th, 2021, 11:40 pm Oh, look: Demon Slayer: The Movie entered the IMDb Top 250. That was bound to happen; it constantly had like an 8.7 at 10k votes, besides also being the #256 most successful movie of all time (unadjusted).
Can't say anything about it yet as I will have to watch the series, but having broken so many Box Office records, it can't be bad, right? .. Right? :$
I haven't seen it either, but I recently had to host a couple of teenage girls (sigh) for a sleepover and they talked about the show - or was it the movie? Anyway, they definitely mentioned Demon Slayer, so I'm guessing it did make some sort of impression.
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#4312

Post by beasterne »

Fergenaprido wrote: July 8th, 2021, 8:58 pm And with this BIFF update Parasite hits 21 official lists... only 2 years after it's initial release. That's quite a feat, imo.
Is there any way to easily determine which film is on the most lists per year of release? I think it would be interesting to see such a list broken down by year. I'm sure it could be done manually but I'd rather not duplicate work if I don't have to :)
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#4313

Post by Fergenaprido »

beasterne wrote: July 8th, 2021, 9:26 pm
Fergenaprido wrote: July 8th, 2021, 8:58 pm And with this BIFF update Parasite hits 21 official lists... only 2 years after it's initial release. That's quite a feat, imo.
Is there any way to easily determine which film is on the most lists per year of release? I think it would be interesting to see such a list broken down by year. I'm sure it could be done manually but I'd rather not duplicate work if I don't have to :)
Easiest way I can think of is to go to the List of all films and filter by year (or filter by decade and use CTRL+F to search for each year on the first page).

Of course, someone probably has already calculated this somewhere, knowing the data enthusiasts we have on this forum :)
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#4314

Post by beasterne »

Fergenaprido wrote: July 8th, 2021, 9:30 pm
beasterne wrote: July 8th, 2021, 9:26 pm
Fergenaprido wrote: July 8th, 2021, 8:58 pm And with this BIFF update Parasite hits 21 official lists... only 2 years after it's initial release. That's quite a feat, imo.
Is there any way to easily determine which film is on the most lists per year of release? I think it would be interesting to see such a list broken down by year. I'm sure it could be done manually but I'd rather not duplicate work if I don't have to :)
Easiest way I can think of is to go to the List of all films and filter by year (or filter by decade and use CTRL+F to search for each year on the first page).

Of course, someone probably has already calculated this somewhere, knowing the data enthusiasts we have on this forum :)
Thank you for the link! Since I didn't want to wait around for one of those data enthusiasts to check this thread, I went ahead and created the list myself by plugging and chugging: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/film ... beasterne/
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#4315

Post by kongs_speech »

beasterne wrote: July 8th, 2021, 10:50 pm
Fergenaprido wrote: July 8th, 2021, 9:30 pm
beasterne wrote: July 8th, 2021, 9:26 pm

Is there any way to easily determine which film is on the most lists per year of release? I think it would be interesting to see such a list broken down by year. I'm sure it could be done manually but I'd rather not duplicate work if I don't have to :)
Easiest way I can think of is to go to the List of all films and filter by year (or filter by decade and use CTRL+F to search for each year on the first page).

Of course, someone probably has already calculated this somewhere, knowing the data enthusiasts we have on this forum :)
Thank you for the link! Since I didn't want to wait around for one of those data enthusiasts to check this thread, I went ahead and created the list myself by plugging and chugging: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/film ... beasterne/
beasterne is allowed to plug and chug, but I can't have an official porn list? :hmph:
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Quartoxuma wrote: A deeply human, life-affirming disgusting check whore.
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PeacefulAnarchy
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#4316

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

In a move that is sure to matter to no one, I replaced one zero check films with another on the S&S hidden gems list. Apparently the director had mad multiple films that year and the wrong film was on the list.
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Tim2460
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#4317

Post by Tim2460 »

So it was very well hidden ;)
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Mothravka
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#4318

Post by Mothravka »

Since we had the discussion, soon we will have another marriage and its scenes:

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Onderhond
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#4319

Post by Onderhond »

Ah, finally, the prequel to Marriage Story.
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Tim2460
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#4320

Post by Tim2460 »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: July 9th, 2021, 12:54 am In a move that is sure to matter to no one, I replaced one zero check films with another on the S&S hidden gems list. Apparently the director had mad multiple films that year and the wrong film was on the list.
I was able to find the other one ... (wihout subs :facepalm: ) and it's true ... also @ 0 checks
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