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Apu
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#4201

Post by Apu »

flavo5000 wrote: June 1st, 2021, 8:38 pm
joachimt wrote: June 1st, 2021, 7:43 pm
Apu wrote: June 1st, 2021, 4:27 pm Please update the Amos Vogel list:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=211&start=1040#p713484

Scheiss-Kerl (1969)
Do you propose only to add this title or also remove Sodoma? There's no feature for Sodoma on IMDb.
The passage in Amos Vogel definitely sounds like he's intending to include a feature called Sodoma that encompasses several "episodes" or shorts including Scheiss-Kerl. It's unclear though what the other episodes of what he considers Sodoma are. Is Sodoma as a short an episode of Sodoma the feature? Or is Sodoma the short the same thing as Scheiss-Kerl? I think more digging should be done on this one to sort it out. Not sure I wanna be the one to dig though :satstunned:
I propose to keep Sodoma and add Scheiss-Kerl.

In the entry for Sodoma, Scheiss-Kerl is the only title explicitly mentioned and described by Vogel apart from Sodoma, and even a photo from Scheiss-Kerl is featured in the book. If say Oh Sensibility (1970) was mentioned along with Scheiss-Kerl, it should also be added of course. Vogel probably reviewed a programme back in the day titled Sodoma that consisted of several Muehl shorts, otherwise he would not list it as a feature I guess. We will probably never know what the other titles were, but at least we can be sure regarding Scheiss-Kerl and Sodoma. It would make more sense to include Scheiss-Kerl than Love Story imo, the latter of which Vogel mentions very casually in the book.
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#4202

Post by kongs_speech »

Solution: get rid of every goddamn Otto Muehl thing.
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#4203

Post by joachimt »

Sounds reasonable, Apu. I'll add Scheiss-Kerl.
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#4204

Post by kongs_speech »

Noooooooooooo
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#4205

Post by joachimt »

kongs_speech wrote: June 2nd, 2021, 5:09 am Noooooooooooo
Come on...... you know you want to watch this!
for here Muehl goes beyond
hardcore sex (no longer so daring nowadays) and enters
into the still forbidden realms of coprophilia. ("This film is
dedicated to shit eaters.") As one nude woman administers
an enema to another, a man lying beneath her waits, with
open mouth; not for long. Gagging under the sudden riches,
his nude body is lovingly smeared by the second woman
who then fellates, masturbates, and fucks him until he
lies in utter exhaustion, an inert, motionless object.
:P :P :P
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#4206

Post by kongs_speech »

joachimt wrote: June 2nd, 2021, 5:12 am
kongs_speech wrote: June 2nd, 2021, 5:09 am Noooooooooooo
Come on...... you know you want to watch this!
for here Muehl goes beyond
hardcore sex (no longer so daring nowadays) and enters
into the still forbidden realms of coprophilia. ("This film is
dedicated to shit eaters.") As one nude woman administers
an enema to another, a man lying beneath her waits, with
open mouth; not for long. Gagging under the sudden riches,
his nude body is lovingly smeared by the second woman
who then fellates, masturbates, and fucks him until he
lies in utter exhaustion, an inert, motionless object.
:P :P :P
Make them related and that's a decent Aristocrats joke.
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#4207

Post by Ebbywebby »

I couldn't even tell if he orgasmed or not. How anti-climactic.

Can anyone make out the words at 2:08? I'd just type them into Google Translate, but I can't even read the letters.
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#4208

Post by Torgo »

kongs_speech wrote: June 2nd, 2021, 5:09 am Noooooooooooo
:lol:
Ebbywebby wrote: June 2nd, 2021, 8:37 am Can anyone make out the words at 2:08? I'd just type them into Google Translate, but I can't even read the letters.
I tried, and now my eyes hurt. :wacko:
Took me long to decipher the upper third. It's kinda rough to read with the handwriting and the horrid rip quality, but you get "used" to it after a while (like with the Muehl content :ph43r: )

Unser Film ist einer sexuellen [?M.....?!] gewidmet.
Die Psychotherapie nennt sie die Koprophagen. Bei uns heißen sie einfach Kotfresser.


-> Our film deals with / is dedicated to a sexual [?...].
Psychotherapy calls them coprophages; among us, they're just called shit eaters*.

*"Kot" is a quite neutral, yet not scientific word for fecal matter, while "fresser" is a strong wording either from the animal world or a slur and translates to someone who is devouring, gorging.


Something like that.
Yeah, you weren't missing out big. It's not the introduction to lift this art into 9/10 territory.
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#4209

Post by Dolwphin »

Wow, you guys are obsessed about coprophilia. I wonder why?
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#4210

Post by Torgo »

The things we'll translate for a check .. :facepalm:
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#4211

Post by kongs_speech »

Well, I watched it. That was actually pretty funny to me. It's the juxtaposition of that incredible obscenity with beautiful classical music. It's the only Muehl thing I've seen that actually approaches satire. I'm still super glad he's dead though.
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#4212

Post by Lammetje »

Torgo wrote: May 31st, 2021, 2:17 pm Aamir Khan flick PK (2014) crossed the 1500-check-threshold and enters 4 IMDb lists: Musical, Sci-fi, Comedy and 2010s.
Before, it lurked around the very bottom of the Top 250 for a while but hasn't been official since a year. Now it will stay. :geek:
:party:
mightysparks wrote: May 31st, 2021, 3:13 pm I watched PK earlier today to reclaim my platinums and I was thinking of OldAle’s quote the whole time :( absolute trash.
No, you're absolute trash! :'(
tommy_leazaq wrote: May 31st, 2021, 8:36 pm I kinda liked 3 Idiots but PK is absolute garbage
No it isn't! :'(
beasterne wrote: May 31st, 2021, 8:58 pm There goes my Musical platinum award, which I only earned about 2 weeks ago :down: . My last film to complete the list was Dancer in the Dark. Now it will be...PK :(
Something to look forward to! :thumbsup:
flavo5000 wrote: May 31st, 2021, 9:27 pmPK? Sigh...
Its official status is well deserved. :folded:
Teproc wrote: June 1st, 2021, 6:23 am The notion that the musical part of Bollywood movies is what makes them a "patience test for Western audiences" is so strange to me. The musical part is what they're best at, really. In terms of Aamir Khan movies, it's the constant self-aggrandizment and moralizing that makes them tough to watch at times, and generally his acting.
No, you're tough to watch at times! :'(
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#4213

Post by Torgo »

You really need to change that avatar.
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#4214

Post by joachimt »

Torgo wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 1:21 am You really need to change that avatar.
That avatar is my favorite movie with him. It's short. :)
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#4215

Post by kongs_speech »

Bo Burnham: Inside is official. That didn't take long. Debuted at #109 on Most Favorited.
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#4216

Post by Torgo »

Wow, it's one of the very rare entries from IMDb's "TV Special" category to do so (at 9.0 so far, btw). I wonder how many of those we got on ICM.

Is it, like, mindchanging good?
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#4217

Post by kongs_speech »

Torgo wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 8:02 pm Wow, it's one of the very rare entries from IMDb's "TV Special" category to do so (at 9.0 so far, btw). I wonder how many of those we got on ICM.

Is it, like, mindchanging good?
According to people I follow on Letterboxd, apparently.
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#4218

Post by Teproc »

According to the Slashfilmcast hosts as well. Admittedly not the podcast hosts whose tastes I value the most, but still. Bo Burnham in general seems to have quite the rabid following, his specials have extremely high ratings on LB as well.
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#4219

Post by GruesomeTwosome »

I just watched that new Bo Burnham special today...it bummed me out (don’t expect a typical laugh-fest, though there’s still some funny stuff). Quite impressive though.
I’m to remember every man I've seen fall into a plate of spaghetti???

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#4220

Post by kongs_speech »

You guys lied about Bo Burnham: Inside.

It's better than anyone said. Fucking wow.
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#4221

Post by Apu »

René Clair's Entr'acte (1924) should be added to Amos Vogel's Film as a Subversive Art:

See third images here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Film-Subversiv ... 297766740/ - the image is a still from the film.

In one of the book's first pages, Vogel writes:

"BACK JACKET: The End - but not the end. The daring destruction of the otherwise inviolable end-title subversively disrupts the illusion of cinema and visually reaffirms the openness of experience. (René Clair, Entr'acte, France, 1924)."
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#4222

Post by joachimt »

done
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#4223

Post by kongs_speech »

Apu wrote: June 7th, 2021, 8:22 am René Clair's Entr'acte (1924) should be added to Amos Vogel's Film as a Subversive Art:

See third images here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Film-Subversiv ... 297766740/ - the image is a still from the film.

In one of the book's first pages, Vogel writes:

"BACK JACKET: The End - but not the end. The daring destruction of the otherwise inviolable end-title subversively disrupts the illusion of cinema and visually reaffirms the openness of experience. (René Clair, Entr'acte, France, 1924)."
Is this one scat porn too?
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#4224

Post by Apu »

You bet
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#4225

Post by Apu »

This should also be added to the Amos Vogel list: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13837002/

Prune Flat
Robert Whitman, USA, 1965
"The most fully-realized work of the noted American mixed-media artist - a desperate attempt to destroy the distinction between film and reality. Live actors perform with and in front of their filmed images which may or may not duplicate, precede or follow their actions. Most fascinating is the projection of film on the actor's body - such as a nude footage of a dancer superimposed on to her dressed body. The complex orchestrations and interrelationships create a mysterious, multi-dimensional sensory overload."

Film as a Subversive Art (1974), page 82.
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#4226

Post by Ebbywebby »

Apu wrote: June 7th, 2021, 9:43 pm This should also be added to the Amos Vogel list: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13837002/

Prune Flat
Robert Whitman, USA, 1965
"The most fully-realized work of the noted American mixed-media artist - a desperate attempt to destroy the distinction between film and reality. Live actors perform with and in front of their filmed images which may or may not duplicate, precede or follow their actions. Most fascinating is the projection of film on the actor's body - such as a nude footage of a dancer superimposed on to her dressed body. The complex orchestrations and interrelationships create a mysterious, multi-dimensional sensory overload."

Film as a Subversive Art (1974), page 82.
Huh, nice catch. I'll watch it soon.

ICM had no director credit for the film, but I updated the info and now it's there.
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#4227

Post by xianjiro »

Talk about subversive - take a dump, then your prunes? What's the world coming to?!? :circle:
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#4228

Post by kongs_speech »

xianjiro wrote: June 8th, 2021, 1:00 am Talk about subversive - take a dump, then your prunes? What's the world coming to?!? :circle:
Cut out the middleman. Prune juice enema.
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#4229

Post by flavo5000 »

Apu wrote: June 7th, 2021, 9:43 pm This should also be added to the Amos Vogel list: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13837002/

Prune Flat
Robert Whitman, USA, 1965
"The most fully-realized work of the noted American mixed-media artist - a desperate attempt to destroy the distinction between film and reality. Live actors perform with and in front of their filmed images which may or may not duplicate, precede or follow their actions. Most fascinating is the projection of film on the actor's body - such as a nude footage of a dancer superimposed on to her dressed body. The complex orchestrations and interrelationships create a mysterious, multi-dimensional sensory overload."

Film as a Subversive Art (1974), page 82.
Wasn't it decided that the art installations mentioned in the book (which I think this would fall under) wouldn't be included on the ICM list?
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#4230

Post by Fergenaprido »

flavo5000 wrote: June 8th, 2021, 2:22 am
Apu wrote: June 7th, 2021, 9:43 pm This should also be added to the Amos Vogel list: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13837002/

Prune Flat
Robert Whitman, USA, 1965
"The most fully-realized work of the noted American mixed-media artist - a desperate attempt to destroy the distinction between film and reality. Live actors perform with and in front of their filmed images which may or may not duplicate, precede or follow their actions. Most fascinating is the projection of film on the actor's body - such as a nude footage of a dancer superimposed on to her dressed body. The complex orchestrations and interrelationships create a mysterious, multi-dimensional sensory overload."

Film as a Subversive Art (1974), page 82.
Wasn't it decided that the art installations mentioned in the book (which I think this would fall under) wouldn't be included on the ICM list?
The book is a bit of a mess to go through. Someone on the official forum went through their German copy. I got through the first third of the original English copy (the one in the PDF), and then PA got a copy of the actual book and was going to go through it so I stopped. I've been busy with a bunch of mod stuff in the meantime, so I put the Vogel list on the backburner, but I can get back to it thus summer, perhaps. Doesn't make sense to do these piecemeal updates, rather to do them all in one fell swoop. Lots of patience required with this list, though.

As to your question, I don't recall if there was a definitive answer.
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#4231

Post by Ebbywebby »

I'd go through my copy of the Vogel book and check for omissions, if someone explains exactly what the criteria is. It's not every film mentioned in the book, is it?
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#4232

Post by xianjiro »

kongs_speech wrote: June 8th, 2021, 1:04 am
xianjiro wrote: June 8th, 2021, 1:00 am Talk about subversive - take a dump, then your prunes? What's the world coming to?!? :circle:
Cut out the middleman. Prune juice enema.
Film it and send a copy to Vogel and Anthology. :lol:
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#4233

Post by joachimt »

Fergenaprido wrote: June 8th, 2021, 3:27 am
flavo5000 wrote: June 8th, 2021, 2:22 am
Apu wrote: June 7th, 2021, 9:43 pm This should also be added to the Amos Vogel list: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13837002/

Prune Flat
Robert Whitman, USA, 1965
"The most fully-realized work of the noted American mixed-media artist - a desperate attempt to destroy the distinction between film and reality. Live actors perform with and in front of their filmed images which may or may not duplicate, precede or follow their actions. Most fascinating is the projection of film on the actor's body - such as a nude footage of a dancer superimposed on to her dressed body. The complex orchestrations and interrelationships create a mysterious, multi-dimensional sensory overload."

Film as a Subversive Art (1974), page 82.
Wasn't it decided that the art installations mentioned in the book (which I think this would fall under) wouldn't be included on the ICM list?
The book is a bit of a mess to go through. Someone on the official forum went through their German copy. I got through the first third of the original English copy (the one in the PDF), and then PA got a copy of the actual book and was going to go through it so I stopped. I've been busy with a bunch of mod stuff in the meantime, so I put the Vogel list on the backburner, but I can get back to it thus summer, perhaps. Doesn't make sense to do these piecemeal updates, rather to do them all in one fell swoop. Lots of patience required with this list, though.

As to your question, I don't recall if there was a definitive answer.
In that case I'll stop updating and wait for you to go through it.
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#4234

Post by joachimt »

Ebbywebby wrote: June 8th, 2021, 3:51 am I'd go through my copy of the Vogel book and check for omissions, if someone explains exactly what the criteria is. It's not every film mentioned in the book, is it?
To be honest, I have no idea.
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#4235

Post by Dolwphin »

joachimt wrote: June 8th, 2021, 7:04 am
Ebbywebby wrote: June 8th, 2021, 3:51 am I'd go through my copy of the Vogel book and check for omissions, if someone explains exactly what the criteria is. It's not every film mentioned in the book, is it?
To be honest, I have no idea.
To be fair this list only became official very recently ... :$
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#4236

Post by Apu »

If you decide not to add Prune. Flat, this one should be removed as well: https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/dead+movie/

Either include both or don't include neither of them.
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#4237

Post by xianjiro »

Dolwphin wrote: June 8th, 2021, 8:17 am
joachimt wrote: June 8th, 2021, 7:04 am
Ebbywebby wrote: June 8th, 2021, 3:51 am I'd go through my copy of the Vogel book and check for omissions, if someone explains exactly what the criteria is. It's not every film mentioned in the book, is it?
To be honest, I have no idea.
To be fair this list only became official very recently ... :$
yeah, somewhere between the porn and pre-code lists, right?
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#4238

Post by Apu »

I've gone through Part One of Film as a Subversive Art.

Films that really should be added to the list:

Ivan the Terrible Part 2 (year(s) of release for Ivan the Terrible is, according to the book, "1944-46", so Vogel clearly refers to both films; and while Part 2 was first released in 1958, it was completed in 1946).
The Boston Strangler (page 78)
Soft Rain (Ken Jacobs, page 100).
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#4239

Post by Fergenaprido »

Apu wrote: June 8th, 2021, 8:33 pm I've gone through Part One of Film as a Subversive Art.

Films that really should be added to the list:

Ivan the Terrible Part 2 (year(s) of release for Ivan the Terrible is, according to the book, "1944-46", so Vogel clearly refers to both films; and while Part 2 was first released in 1958, it was completed in 1946).
The Boston Strangler (page 78)
Soft Rain (Ken Jacobs, page 100).
To save you the trouble of going through it all, you should check out the Vogel thread on the other forum. I appreciate the work, but don't want you to waste your time.

Also, which version of the book do you have?
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#4240

Post by Apu »

The original 1974 version, of course.

I don't mind going through the book, it's great fun.
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