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#3961

Post by Fergenaprido »

dirty_score wrote: ↑April 4th, 2021, 2:40 pm Also the 2021 update of The Spaghetti Western Database's Essential Top 50 Films is out. Dead Men Ride a.k.a. Anda muchacho, spara! becomes official check!
And it kicks out https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/ognuno+per+se/ which becomes unofficial again.
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#3962

Post by Torgo »

Fergenaprido wrote: ↑April 4th, 2021, 10:27 pm
dirty_score wrote: ↑April 4th, 2021, 2:40 pm Also the 2021 update of The Spaghetti Western Database's Essential Top 50 Films is out. Dead Men Ride a.k.a. Anda muchacho, spara! becomes official check!
And it kicks out https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/ognuno+per+se/ which becomes unofficial again.
IN: Dead Men Ride: IMDb 7.0 at 281 votes; 21 checks on ICM, 4 favs, 0 dislikes
OUT: The Ruthless Four: IMDb 6.7 at 640 votes; 64 checks on ICM, 3 favs, 1 dislike

You may conclude from these stats what you want.
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#3963

Post by dirty_score »

Godzilla vs. Kong (2021) will be official in tomorrow's WWBO update even with a simultaneous release in HBOmax.

Signs of normalcy ahead? :unsure:
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#3964

Post by Torgo »

Most of Europe should be far from normal. :blink: Really surprised about that one.
Too bad BO Mojo only lists a few regions for now; with the 28 million domestic, this would hardly enter any list. Figures for European countries shouldn't be that obscure and would color me curious.
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#3966

Post by joachimt »

done
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#3967

Post by yllow »

Only 130 left now, I wonder the estimated completion date
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#3968

Post by dirty_score »

yllow wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 3:30 pm Only 130 left now, I wonder the estimated completion date
Bill should have used quarantine time to finish the list. He's just picking 5 at random from the More Noirs from TSPDT (outdated)
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#3969

Post by OldAle1 »

dirty_score wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 3:54 pm
yllow wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 3:30 pm Only 130 left now, I wonder the estimated completion date
Bill should have used quarantine time to finish the list. He's just picking 5 at random from the More Noirs from TSPDT (outdated)
Seems like it. I had hope when he did this that he was going to do a really significant re-vamping and re-thinking of the original project - hoping for more foreign noir in particular, and not just from the UK, France and Japan - and also at least a few more from recent years. Neither has really happened.
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#3970

Post by WalterNeff »

Five regained official checks. Still Platinum.
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#3971

Post by flavo5000 »

Fergenaprido wrote: ↑April 1st, 2021, 6:04 pm @flavo - mjf's brought it up in the mod forum. Should have an answer for you in a week or so. I think some people are offline for Easter.
Any updates on this one?
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#3972

Post by Fergenaprido »

flavo5000 wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 8:49 pm
Fergenaprido wrote: ↑April 1st, 2021, 6:04 pm @flavo - mjf's brought it up in the mod forum. Should have an answer for you in a week or so. I think some people are offline for Easter.
Any updates on this one?
Still discussing, mostly logistics of it (i.e. where each film should go). Still unsure about some of the iffy cases, though. The first 5 you mentioned have no objections, thus far.
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#3973

Post by Onderhond »

Fergenaprido wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 9:02 pm The first 5 you mentioned have no objections, thus far.
Nobody objected against adding a TV series? :down:
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#3974

Post by Fergenaprido »

Onderhond wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 9:07 pm
Fergenaprido wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 9:02 pm The first 5 you mentioned have no objections, thus far.
Nobody objected against adding a TV series? :down:
Personal objections aside, it very clearly is discussed in the text and is included in the index. I see no valid reason not to include it since the precedent of TV series has already been set by other lists long before I became a mod. Aside from the fact that it is a TV series, on what basis would you exclude it from the list?
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#3975

Post by Onderhond »

Fergenaprido wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 9:19 pm I see no valid reason not to include it since the precedent of TV series has already been set by other lists long before I became a mod.
I'm not aware of all the cases and their history, but I know there's an important difference between exceptions and precedent. The first is a one-time occurrence that is allowed for a very specific reason, the other is the slippery slope in full effect. I know that something like the recent Twin Peaks series for example is considered a film by some and might've been included for that reason. I don't think that's the case with Cowboy Bebop, as series as plain Jane TV as they come, which would just give more room to other basic TV series entering the lists.
Fergenaprido wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 9:19 pm Aside from the fact that it is a TV series, on what basis would you exclude it from the list?
I don't think other reasons are needed on a site called ICheckMovies. I think the very edges of the discussion might stretch to the Mini-series list we have (which is at least contained, separate and non-invasive), anything beyond that is just gibberish.
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#3976

Post by flavo5000 »

Onderhond wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 9:34 pm
Fergenaprido wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 9:19 pm I see no valid reason not to include it since the precedent of TV series has already been set by other lists long before I became a mod.
I'm not aware of all the cases and their history, but I know there's an important difference between exceptions and precedent. The first is a one-time occurrence that is allowed for a very specific reason, the other is the slippery slope in full effect. I know that something like the recent Twin Peaks series for example is considered a film by some and might've been included for that reason. I don't think that's the case with Cowboy Bebop, as series as plain Jane TV as they come, which would just give more room to other basic TV series entering the lists.
Fergenaprido wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 9:19 pm Aside from the fact that it is a TV series, on what basis would you exclude it from the list?
I don't think other reasons are needed on a site called ICheckMovies. I think the very edges of the discussion might stretch to the Mini-series list we have (which is at least contained, separate and non-invasive), anything beyond that is just gibberish.
There are quite a few others beyond just Twin Peaks that are already official. I really don't see this as a slippery slope. It isn't as if there is discussion of including a TV-specific list. I'm sure that would never get approved.
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#3977

Post by Onderhond »

flavo5000 wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 9:40 pm There are quite a few others beyond just Twin Peaks that are already official. I really don't see this as a slippery slope. It isn't as if there is discussion of including a TV-specific list. I'm sure that would never get approved.
If you're allowing TV series in regular lists, I don't see a reason why you'd want to exclude a TV-series list? I find that a very random place to draw a line.

Like I said, I don't know all the cases and the specifics why they were allowed, but unless there's a very good reason to allow a TV series, I just don't think they belong anywhere. Not when they have a Criterion spine number, not when Rosenbaum happens to like it, not when 2000 TSPDT critics vote it into their list, not when a famous director happened to work on it.
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#3978

Post by Fergenaprido »

Onderhond wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 9:34 pm
Fergenaprido wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 9:19 pm I see no valid reason not to include it since the precedent of TV series has already been set by other lists long before I became a mod.
I'm not aware of all the cases and their history, but I know there's an important difference between exceptions and precedent. The first is a one-time occurrence that is allowed for a very specific reason, the other is the slippery slope in full effect. I know that something like the recent Twin Peaks series for example is considered a film by some and might've been included for that reason. I don't think that's the case with Cowboy Bebop, as series as plain Jane TV as they come, which would just give more room to other basic TV series entering the lists.
Fergenaprido wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 9:19 pm Aside from the fact that it is a TV series, on what basis would you exclude it from the list?
I don't think other reasons are needed on a site called ICheckMovies. I think the very edges of the discussion might stretch to the Mini-series list we have (which is at least contained, separate and non-invasive), anything beyond that is just gibberish.
If I understand clearly, your position is to simply exclude it because it's a TV series? I'm not entirely against that stance, but I'm of the opinion that if we take that stance, it should be applied to all TV series across all lists, not just this one. I'm not convinced that's the best decision for the site overall, though.

The first TV show that came to mind was The Wire, and then the recently adopted Shaun the Sheep series.
Checking icm filters, I see Twin Peaks (1990), Twin Peaks (2017), 24, Monty Python's Flying Circus, The Sopranos, and The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles. There may be others, but icm doesn't distinguish between series and miniseries.

And while the site is indeed called "icheckmovies" I think that's merely a reflection of how the site started, and no longer a reflection of the fluidity between different forms of visual media. Similarly, you could say that imdb is called "internet movie database", but they stopped being exclusively about movies at least 20 years ago, if they ever were. I acknowledge your viewpoint, but I don't think that argument holds up.
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#3979

Post by Onderhond »

Fergenaprido wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 9:54 pm And while the site is indeed called "icheckmovies" I think that's merely a reflection of how the site started, and no longer a reflection of the fluidity between different forms of visual media. Similarly, you could say that imdb is called "internet movie database", but they stopped being exclusively about movies at least 20 years ago, if they ever were. I acknowledge your viewpoint, but I don't think that argument holds up.
But it does, since we're clearly not getting lists centered around TV-series. Or music videos. Or games for that matter. IMDb has those too. And when we generate our own IMDb lists, don't we also filter out mini-series? So in certain places on ICM, these barriers are still very much in effect. I mean, If there's no objection against adding TV-series to a list, what's the objection against a TV series list?

Consistency clearly isn't the main argument here.
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#3980

Post by Knaldskalle »

If we're going to make a distinction between TV shows and movies, we should also single out art installations like "Line describing a Cone" (v. 1 and 2).
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#3981

Post by Fergenaprido »

Onderhond wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 10:10 pm
Fergenaprido wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 9:54 pm And while the site is indeed called "icheckmovies" I think that's merely a reflection of how the site started, and no longer a reflection of the fluidity between different forms of visual media. Similarly, you could say that imdb is called "internet movie database", but they stopped being exclusively about movies at least 20 years ago, if they ever were. I acknowledge your viewpoint, but I don't think that argument holds up.
But it does, since we're clearly not getting lists centered around TV-series. Or music videos. Or games for that matter. IMDb has those too. And when we generate our own IMDb lists, don't we also filter out mini-series? So in certain places on ICM, these barriers are still very much in effect. I mean, If there's no objection against adding TV-series to a list, what's the objection against a TV series list?

Consistency clearly isn't the main argument here.
Consistency is indeed an argument from my point of view. I cannot speak for other people who have commented in this thread.

I never stated an objection to a TV series list (or a music video list, or a games list - and yes, imdb does have those two types now, but those are more recent additions in the last few years, and I believe Marijn has a No Games policy for icm, though I know some have gotten through the barrier and been imported). Imdb lists also filter out documentaries and shorts (and these lists were inherited from imdb and then recreated to be the closest approximation to what they previously were). Having these "barriers" in certain places doesn't mean something isn't allowed; I'm not understanding your argument there.
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#3982

Post by Onderhond »

Fergenaprido wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 10:34 pm Having these "barriers" in certain places doesn't mean something isn't allowed; I'm not understanding your argument there.
Can you explain why there are barriers in place for things that are allowed. That makes zero sense to me.

The consistency is purely with the source then (or the spirit of the source, in the case of the IMDb lists), not with the internal logic of what is/isn't allowed on ICM?

Edit: and btw, this is also the first time I hear ICM would be open to adding a TV-series list.
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#3983

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Onderhond wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 10:40 pm
Fergenaprido wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 10:34 pm Having these "barriers" in certain places doesn't mean something isn't allowed; I'm not understanding your argument there.
Can you explain why there are barriers in place for things that are allowed. That makes zero sense to me.

The consistency is purely with the source then (or the spirit of the source, in the case of the IMDb lists), not with the internal logic of what is/isn't allowed on ICM?
Basically yes, consistency with the source is the holy grail/standard of iCM, which what is always sought after and can’t be deviated from.

There is difference between what type of visual media are allowed on iCM to be added and which official lists are chosen (and how those are made in case of the IMDb lists), there is no relation between both. Maybe Ferge can explain it better.
Edit: and btw, this is also the first time I hear ICM would be open to adding a TV-series list.
First time for me too. While contrary to you I have no objection to add series to what still at its core is a movie lists, I would draw the line at adopting of full fledge tv series list.
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#3984

Post by WalterNeff »

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds
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#3985

Post by Knaldskalle »

Come on... You know you want to...

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/1001 ... +2015/apu/

It has "Days of Our Lives" on it. 14,263 episodes and counting. Each episode is 60 minutes.That's 1 1/2 years of nonstop TV. For one check out of 1001.
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#3986

Post by Knaldskalle »

WalterNeff wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 11:09 pm A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds
Unfortunately Emerson never expanded on just what is foolish and what isn't.
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#3987

Post by Fergenaprido »

Onderhond wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 10:40 pm
Fergenaprido wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 10:34 pm Having these "barriers" in certain places doesn't mean something isn't allowed; I'm not understanding your argument there.
Can you explain why there are barriers in place for things that are allowed. That makes zero sense to me.

The consistency is purely with the source then (or the spirit of the source, in the case of the IMDb lists), not with the internal logic of what is/isn't allowed on ICM?

Edit: and btw, this is also the first time I hear ICM would be open to adding a TV-series list.
My understanding is that those barriers were inherited from the original imdb lists. IMDb chose to exclude shorts, documentaries, and television from their original decade and genre lists back in the early 2000s. If you look at the imdb Top 250 history, you can see that shorts like The Wrong Trousers used to be in the list until they were purged in July 2001. So ICM was just continuing with those barriers to maintain consistency with the original imdb lists. It seems that those lists were originally intended to highlight the top-rated feature films from those genres and decades (as that's what the userbase wanted? the owners decided?).

As for internal logic of what is/isn't allowed on icm, I'm only aware of the "No Games" rule from Marijn/The Guys. But yes, my understanding of consistency is that we should stay as true to the source (or spirit of the source) as possible (I suppose this has parallels to the "lost films" discussion that's been had here often), and not edit the list to our own likings. The only "exceptions" I can think of are when we've extended a Top 10 to a Top XX when we've had access to the original ballots, or where we've combined a few lists into a single list (Grindhouse and Pixar are the two I'm aware of). But even in those instances, we're not picking and choosing which individual entries to include or exclude.

N.B: I said that I'm open to a TV-series list, but that doesn't mean ICM/Marijn/the mods are. I don't know if the topic's actually been discussed or not prior to me becoming a mod.
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#3988

Post by Torgo »

Knaldskalle wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 11:11 pm Come on... You know you want to...

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/1001 ... +2015/apu/

It has "Days of Our Lives" on it. 14,263 episodes and counting. Each episode is 60 minutes.That's 1 1/2 years of nonstop TV. For one check out of 1001.
The things we'll do for a check ..
Fergenaprido wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 11:17 pm I'm only aware of the "No Games" rule from Marijn/The Guys.
Well, at least there's that.
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#3989

Post by WalterNeff »

Knaldskalle wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 11:12 pm
WalterNeff wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 11:09 pm A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds
Unfortunately Emerson never expanded on just what is foolish and what isn't.
That's for us to decide. My threshold is more than three paragraphs in a post, or more than 4 posts in a row on a topic.
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#3990

Post by xianjiro »

Knaldskalle wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 10:23 pm If we're going to make a distinction between TV shows and movies, we should also single out art installations like "Line describing a Cone" (v. 1 and 2).
and "projects" which haven't been completed yet

and if we're going to start this, then I say pornos should also be excised
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#3991

Post by xianjiro »

Knaldskalle wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 11:11 pm Come on... You know you want to...

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/1001 ... +2015/apu/

It has "Days of Our Lives" on it. 14,263 episodes and counting. Each episode is 60 minutes.That's 1 1/2 years of nonstop TV. For one check out of 1001.
well you know, this has some good candidates for cheetahs
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#3992

Post by kongs_speech »

xianjiro wrote: ↑April 10th, 2021, 1:35 am and if we're going to start this, then I say pornos should also be excised
Whoa, whoa! Hold the phone! :angry:
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#3993

Post by flavo5000 »

xianjiro wrote: ↑April 10th, 2021, 1:35 am
Knaldskalle wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 10:23 pm If we're going to make a distinction between TV shows and movies, we should also single out art installations like "Line describing a Cone" (v. 1 and 2).
and "projects" which haven't been completed yet

and if we're going to start this, then I say pornos should also be excised
Ok, cool. In the Realm of the Senses gets to be dropped from its 16 official lists. :P
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#3994

Post by dirty_score »

flavo5000 wrote: ↑April 10th, 2021, 1:19 pm
xianjiro wrote: ↑April 10th, 2021, 1:35 am
Knaldskalle wrote: ↑April 9th, 2021, 10:23 pm If we're going to make a distinction between TV shows and movies, we should also single out art installations like "Line describing a Cone" (v. 1 and 2).
and "projects" which haven't been completed yet

and if we're going to start this, then I say pornos should also be excised
Ok, cool. In the Realm of the Senses gets to be dropped from its 16 official lists. :P
Your sleazoid list won't ever be official tehe

ps: by the way, you didn't get by any chance an adoption request for the strange list, did you? :shifty:
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#3995

Post by Torgo »

dirty_score wrote: ↑April 10th, 2021, 1:27 pm ps: by the way, you didn't get by any chance an adoption request for the strange list, did you? :shifty:
Don't kill my excitement in advance :ph43r: Still waiting for the day of adoptions.
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#3996

Post by xianjiro »

Torgo wrote: ↑April 10th, 2021, 6:19 pm
dirty_score wrote: ↑April 10th, 2021, 1:27 pm ps: by the way, you didn't get by any chance an adoption request for the strange list, did you? :shifty:
Don't kill my excitement in advance :ph43r: Still waiting for the day of adoptions.
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#3997

Post by flavo5000 »

dirty_score wrote: ↑April 10th, 2021, 1:27 pm
flavo5000 wrote: ↑April 10th, 2021, 1:19 pm
xianjiro wrote: ↑April 10th, 2021, 1:35 am

and "projects" which haven't been completed yet

and if we're going to start this, then I say pornos should also be excised
Ok, cool. In the Realm of the Senses gets to be dropped from its 16 official lists. :P
Your sleazoid list won't ever be official tehe

ps: by the way, you didn't get by any chance an adoption request for the strange list, did you? :shifty:
Nope. I get the feeling the mods don't seem to care too much about more genre lists... :(
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#3998

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

They do, (or at least did when I was mod.) But the adoption process moves slower than most European vaccination programs. So that the change of it being adopted this round was always extremely slim. So don’t feel discouraged yet.

Also all of the last few adoptions rounds had a genre list
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#3999

Post by xianjiro »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: ↑April 11th, 2021, 3:55 am They do, (or at least did when I was mod.) But the adoption process moves slower than most European vaccination programs. So that the change of it being adopted this round was always extremely slim. So don’t feel discouraged yet.

Also all of the last few adoptions rounds had a genre list
so what about this adoption round? :think:
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#4000

Post by TiRex »

Sorry for the intermission, but shouldn't My Octapus Teacher be at least considered for the IMDb's Documentary Top 50 list? It has way over the 400 checks and 2000 votes thresholds. I don't know if it would become official because it would be tied with 8.2 for the #38-60 spot but it should at least be in the IMDb list, no?
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