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The quest to rescue the IMDb lists

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xianjiro
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#881

Post by xianjiro »

My first reaction is a tweak to the algorithm. Have you poked around at the IMDb support site to see if there was any recent discussion on the topic? Other than that, not sure where, publicly, anything but conjecture could be found.

My gut says someone felt there was something off and needed addressing. Who and what? Well, those are both rather £64 000 questions. :think:
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#882

Post by Torgo »

Radhe (2021)

Indian film with 1.8 at over 130,000 votes .. which it managed to collect 5 days after release. :rolleyes: Yeah of course.

For reference: Films from India after 2015, sorted by votes - the only film to get more is Dangal as of now, a Top 250 title. Dil Bechara (2020), the third-highest (after Radhe), is already flagged vor vote manipulation. :facepalm: Then come both the Bãhubali movies with 105k and 77k votes .. collected in years, not days.
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#883

Post by kongs_speech »

Torgo wrote: May 18th, 2021, 8:40 pm Radhe (2021)

Indian film with 1.8 at over 130,000 votes .. which it managed to collect 5 days after release. :rolleyes: Yeah of course.

For reference: Films from India after 2015, sorted by votes - the only film to get more is Dangal as of now, a Top 250 title. Dil Bechara (2020), the third-highest (after Radhe), is already flagged vor vote manipulation. :facepalm: Then come both the Bãhubali movies with 105k and 77k votes .. collected in years, not days.
Who did this movie piss off and what makes it any different from the ones that get positive manipulation?
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#884

Post by Torgo »

Yeah Ferg, tell us! :p
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#885

Post by xianjiro »

Well, interesting only 17 of the Top 1000 have seen it and there the highest rating is only a 6 and there are also 6 1s. Usually vote manipulation is done through new accounts, or at very least, accounts that aren't active enough to be in the Top 1000. This leads me to wonder if there really is fire in this smoke filled room. But clearly there is something - I did a quick search and two things stand out: 1) fans are calling the movie derivative and 2) the film was leaked and widely shared on SM and Khan has asked the Cyber Cell to go after everyone involved. Not sure either raise to the level of a serious attack, but clearly someone's pissed off.
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#886

Post by Fergenaprido »

Torgo wrote: May 18th, 2021, 8:56 pm Yeah Ferg, tell us! :p
:teehee:
xianjiro wrote: May 18th, 2021, 11:02 pm Well, interesting only 17 of the Top 1000 have seen it and there the highest rating is only a 6 and there are also 6 1s. Usually vote manipulation is done through new accounts, or at very least, accounts that aren't active enough to be in the Top 1000. This leads me to wonder if there really is fire in this smoke filled room. But clearly there is something - I did a quick search and two things stand out: 1) fans are calling the movie derivative and 2) the film was leaked and widely shared on SM and Khan has asked the Cyber Cell to go after everyone involved. Not sure either raise to the level of a serious attack, but clearly someone's pissed off.
Yeah, I'd say xian is right. It's probably backlash against the backlash against the piracy: https://www.glamsham.com/bollywood/news ... khna-radhe
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#887

Post by xianjiro »

Fergenaprido wrote: May 19th, 2021, 12:11 am
Torgo wrote: May 18th, 2021, 8:56 pm Yeah Ferg, tell us! :p
:teehee:
xianjiro wrote: May 18th, 2021, 11:02 pm Well, interesting only 17 of the Top 1000 have seen it and there the highest rating is only a 6 and there are also 6 1s. Usually vote manipulation is done through new accounts, or at very least, accounts that aren't active enough to be in the Top 1000. This leads me to wonder if there really is fire in this smoke filled room. But clearly there is something - I did a quick search and two things stand out: 1) fans are calling the movie derivative and 2) the film was leaked and widely shared on SM and Khan has asked the Cyber Cell to go after everyone involved. Not sure either raise to the level of a serious attack, but clearly someone's pissed off.
Yeah, I'd say xian is right. It's probably backlash against the backlash against the piracy: https://www.glamsham.com/bollywood/news ... khna-radhe
while we can rely on some coverage in English language media, it might be more telling if we could delve into Hindi and other languages.
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#888

Post by brokenface »

Isn't Salman Khan also somewhat controversial also due to the whole hit-and-run thing?
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#889

Post by tommy_leazaq »

I haven't seen the film, but I can tell from the teasers, trailers and actor and director's reputation, reaction of people who have seen etc that it is very well a 1.8 worthy film. All those news about piracies , Salman's reputation and all had little to nothing to its rating.

Not every extremely rated films are the result of vote manipulation. Sometimes you gotta trust the data. :)
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#890

Post by Torgo »

Hehe. I am less concerned about the IMDb score itself, but the insane amount of votes in a matter of days. It's more than any international blockbuster hit does in such a short time span and even more than Indian Top 250 hits gathered over years. So either it's an extremely well orchestrated legit shitstorm of people who indeed have seen the film and want to shit on it or ... it's sock puppet accs. :pinch:
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#891

Post by OldAle1 »

All I see is yet more evidence that the IMDb bottom 100 is even less meaningful/reliable/honest than the top 250.
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#892

Post by Torgo »

Hehe, and here I am again ..
We've witnessed a few targeted operations to bomb films into the Bottom 100 over the years, that's true. But in the end, as someone who constantly had 40-60% completion of this list (the old and new, "more popular" editon): It does a pretty good job of gathering a ton of bad, TRULY bad films, some of them arguably among the worst of their decade and maybe worst of all time. I hardly ever made it through one of these and thought: "Neat film actually, above average, was this just a shitstorm?"
The system can be cheated here and there, but overall, it works. -_-
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#893

Post by Torgo »

Bottom 100 sorted by your rating

I currently have 3 times given a 4/10 here, all of which must have been VERY generous. :lol: (Looking at you, Nic Cage!)
Otherwise, it's equally 1, 2 and 3 out of 10 for me. A few of them are so bad they're good (and this probably was how The Wicker Man got my good grade), seldom good films. The absolutely most terrible and most painful to stomach are the bad comedies from the 00s there. You need no vote stuffing to bomb Friedberg & Seltzer, the worst "filmmakers" in the history of film, into the bottom 20. :X
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#894

Post by ChrisReynolds »

Torgo wrote: May 19th, 2021, 2:46 pm Bottom 100 sorted by your rating

I currently have 3 times given a 4/10 here, all of which must have been VERY generous. :lol: (Looking at you, Nic Cage!)
Otherwise, it's equally 1, 2 and 3 out of 10 for me. A few of them are so bad they're good (and this probably was how The Wicker Man got my good grade), seldom good films. The absolutely most terrible and most painful to stomach are the bad comedies from the 00s there. You need no vote stuffing to bomb Friedberg & Seltzer, the worst "filmmakers" in the history of film, into the bottom 20. :X
I've seen 26/100, and actually given two 8/10s (The Room and Troll 2). There are definitely mostly truly bad movies on that list, but it does also have some of the effect of people rushing to give 1/10s to a famously bad film to give it the "glory" of being worst of all time. I think of it as the MST3K effect, where all the films screened on MST3K have a noticeably different vote distribution that spikes on 1/10.

I have avoided the obviously awful Friedberg & Seltzer comedies. Rule of thumb is that comedies generally deserve to be there. It's very difficult for a comedy to be unintentionally funny.
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#895

Post by Onderhond »

Highest for me is a 7 for Batman & Robin. Best Batman live action flick.
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#896

Post by OldAle1 »

Torgo wrote: May 19th, 2021, 2:46 pm Bottom 100 sorted by your rating

I currently have 3 times given a 4/10 here, all of which must have been VERY generous. :lol: (Looking at you, Nic Cage!)
Otherwise, it's equally 1, 2 and 3 out of 10 for me. A few of them are so bad they're good (and this probably was how The Wicker Man got my good grade), seldom good films. The absolutely most terrible and most painful to stomach are the bad comedies from the 00s there. You need no vote stuffing to bomb Friedberg & Seltzer, the worst "filmmakers" in the history of film, into the bottom 20. :X
I have three 4/10 myself. As I've mentioned before elsewhere I find it very difficult to rate a "so bad it's good" film and I tend to reflexively rate a lot of them between 3 and 5 for whatever reason (though my Ed Wood ratings are all 1 or 2 - then again I saw all of those for the first time long ago before I really thought about this stuff much). It's not so much for me about whether the films on the list are merely bad, so bad it's good, or just plain terrible, but again - how they got there. In the bad old IMDb forum days over and over it would be brought up that an "urban" film had suffered a worse ratings shellacking than a typical, similarly bad film without an all-black cast; this issue seems to have largely disappeared, to be replaced with vast numbers of recent Bollywood films, which may well be terrible but I suspect no closer* to "worst ever" than the Drishyam films are to "best ever". And there are other trends, like every Paris Hilton film getting bottom-of-the-barrel ratings, every Uwe Boll. What I've seen of these two categories don't merit the hate, though they're not good by any means. Friedberg/Selzer films probably do - the one I saw (the current #1) is certainly one of the very worst films I've ever seen and what I've read indicates that the rest are much the same - I won't be finding out for myself.

But overall the list has much the same problem as the top 250 - too America/India/Turkey dominated, too many recent films (only four pre-1987), and all the obvious "trends" I mentioned in the first paragraph that really make it a fairly useless list to me for finding enjoyably terrible films. And I suppose that's not it's purpose. But in any case, I just can't take it seriously because the campaign voting or fake voting is simply too widespread, and the minimum vote requirement of 10k keeps nearly everything interesting (from my perspective) ineligible.


* except that I did see one of them, Tees Maar Khan, and it was truly, truly awful. So maybe IMDb voters have something there after all. Not rushing to get more evidence soon.
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#897

Post by Fergenaprido »

OldAle1 wrote: May 19th, 2021, 6:07 pm But overall the list has much the same problem as the top 250 - too America/India/Turkey dominated, too many recent films (only four pre-1987), and all the obvious "trends" I mentioned in the first paragraph that really make it a fairly useless list to me for finding enjoyably terrible films. And I suppose that's not it's purpose. But in any case, I just can't take it seriously because the campaign voting or fake voting is simply too widespread, and the minimum vote requirement of 10k keeps nearly everything interesting (from my perspective) ineligible.
Regarding the recent films, that actually makes sense to me, since in earlier years bad movies simply wouldn't have been able to be made (excluding B-movies) without funding from the studios willing to sign off on it and/or they couldn't get distribution. Nowadays anyone and their dog can release a film. :D
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#898

Post by Torgo »

(Oh, I could have added more to the bottom movies conversation .. maybe another time)

Isn't our Mini-series Top 50 as calculated from IMDb a beauty?

#1 Planet Earth II
[#4 Band of Brothers]
#5 Planet Earth
#6 Cosmos 2
#7 Our Planet
#8 Blue Planet II
#9 Cosmos
#14 The Vietnam war
#18 Apocalypse: The Second World War
#19 The Civil War
#20 Frozen Planet
#21 Human Planet
#22 The Blue Planet
#23 The War

Yep .. these are 14 of our 23 best series there. Both 2 Cosmos docs, 4x war docs (+a fictional war mini-series) and not less than SEVEN nature docs to bear Planet in their title.


Then of course there are even more docs and then also a little bit of Dekalog, Das Boot, I Claudius, Heimat, Pride and Prejudice.

I'm not content with this list. :unsure:
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#899

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What's the issue exactly? Is the idea that nature or historical docs shouldn't count for some reason?
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#900

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Pather Pachali is now less than 50 votes from crossing the threshold to be eligible for the imdb Top 250. It's currently at an 8.6 rating, which, assuming it doesn't get weighted down like many other foreign-language films, would place it somewhere between #16 and #25 in the list. Films with a weighted 8.5 rating are #26-47. So it seems destined to debut in a Top 50 spot, perhaps even a Top 25. I believe the last non-recent film to debut* that high was Seppuku coming in at #29 two years ago, and it's rank has been relatively stable since then (it's #32 now).

*Seppuku actually returned to the Top 250 after a 7-year hiatus due to the increased in the threshold from 3,000 votes to 25,000.

In other news, Drishyam (2013) reentered the list, followed by Drishyam 2 (2021) the next day. Drishyam (2015) dropped off a few weeks ago in that massive Top 250 shift.
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#901

Post by Fergenaprido »

Fergenaprido wrote: May 28th, 2021, 12:00 am Pather Pachali is now less than 50 votes from crossing the threshold to be eligible for the imdb Top 250. It's currently at an 8.6 rating, which, assuming it doesn't get weighted down like many other foreign-language films, would place it somewhere between #16 and #25 in the list. Films with a weighted 8.5 rating are #26-47. So it seems destined to debut in a Top 50 spot, perhaps even a Top 25.
And there it is, two days later. Faster than I expected. #71 with an 8.3 rating, which is lower than I expected. I guess the weighting will change over time as more people seek it out now that it's in the list. And it knocks out Anand, which debuted just over a year ago at #60, suffering a steady decline since then. It will drop to 2 official lists (both Indian ones).
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#902

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By the number of official lists it seems a much better entry. Havent checked either one.
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#903

Post by Torgo »

Found another case of vote stuffing: Wheels (2014)

Fergenaprido wrote: May 29th, 2021, 5:12 pm
Fergenaprido wrote: May 28th, 2021, 12:00 am Pather Pachali is now less than 50 votes from crossing the threshold to be eligible for the imdb Top 250. It's currently at an 8.6 rating, which, assuming it doesn't get weighted down like many other foreign-language films, would place it somewhere between #16 and #25 in the list. Films with a weighted 8.5 rating are #26-47. So it seems destined to debut in a Top 50 spot, perhaps even a Top 25.
And there it is, two days later. Faster than I expected. #71 with an 8.3 rating, which is lower than I expected.
That's still pretty cool. :thumbsup:
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#904

Post by Fergenaprido »

Torgo wrote: June 6th, 2021, 11:39 pm Found another case of vote stuffing: Wheels (2014)
Yeah, that's one I've been aware of for a few years, and it's always baffled me. It didn't seem to get any sort of release, it's not from a "mafia" country, and I've never seen anyone mention the film aside from the (probably fake or from friends of the filmmakers) review on imdb. It has started to drop in ratings recently, however, so perhaps it will normalize over time. It's at 8.5 now, but it was over 9.0 a year ago with only a few thousand votes fewer. Maybe it's become widely available now? Not that I really have any interest in seeing it.
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#905

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Teproc wrote: May 25th, 2021, 6:18 am What's the issue exactly? Is the idea that nature or historical docs shouldn't count for some reason?
Yeah, seconding this. I'm guessing that some people are turned off by the number of nature documentaries, but I've seen most of them and they are really good. Advances in camera sizes and digital processing power has resulted in some of the most amazing high-definition footage of, let's be honest, a rapidly disappearing subject matter. Plus, most of them have the narration of David Attenborough which is pedigree British class.

The downside is that they are absolutely formulaic. Each series is broken up the same way, each episode has pretty close to the same outline. But the formula works and it seems to be tough to point at a specific one and say it's not as good as the rest.
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