The quest to rescue the IMDb lists

[Fergenaprido]

Yeah, I've been noticing the changes on took too. Older films dropping dramatically, and foreign films rising dramatically. Older foreign films seem to bounce up and down. I suspect they're changing which users they use to collate the Top 250; didn't realize that some of the other lists were being affected too. It went from 6 to 15 Indian films in the top 250, among other changes. A lot of films that had always been in the Top 250 since the list was first created have now dropped off (mostly Classic Hollywood). I'm thinking it will take another few weeks before the dust settles. The list has had drastic changes before, but usually that was sorted after a day or two, not prolonged like this over a month. Makes me think that they're still making tweaks.

Here are the changes on August 8th compared to two weeks before:

Spoiler

And the changes as of today compared to one month ago:

Spoiler

[PeacefulAnarchy]

It isn't the just the Top 250 ratings, the core ratings are changing. It could be a change in balancing foreign vs US votes, or it might just be a change in how they balance older votes so the older the vote the lower the weight. Since older votes are more likely to be US based it will drop US films and classics more.

[xianjiro]

the important thing is THAT IT'S A BIG FAT SECRET (whatever is happening behind the algorithms at IMDb)

[monclivie]

We need a spy.

[maxwelldeux]

We need a spy.

I'll look into it...

[albajos]

[Cippenham]

I stopped working on these lists a long time ago as the are discredited despite best efforts.

[PeacefulAnarchy]

New entry in the Top 250 https://beta.icheckmovies.com/movies/25 ... no+katachi
It's on ICM's most favourite list as well, so maybe some crossover appeal

[mightysparks]

Boulderman only gave it an 8/10 unless he gives it a 14, I don’t think it’s worth watching.

[Onderhond]

Guess it pays when some madman burns down your animation studio. Good film though, but very weird entry.

[Fergenaprido]

It's been popping in and out of the bottom of the Top 250 for the past few months.

[PeacefulAnarchy]

Really? I hadn't noticed until today.

[Fergenaprido]

Really? I hadn't noticed until today.

Yep, since mid-April actually: https://250.took.nl/title/tt5323662
Though it's often been only for a few days at a time, so it might be in between icm updates since those only happen twice a week. I don't know if it's been on the icm list yet, but I think it was in mid-September.

[Torgo]

I like to play around with IMDb Top 250 History and came to notice what of course none of you missed last summer ..:

Yeah, I've been noticing the changes on took too. Older films dropping dramatically, and foreign films rising dramatically. Older foreign films seem to bounce up and down. I suspect they're changing which users they use to collate the Top 250; didn't realize that some of the other lists were being affected too. It went from 6 to 15 Indian films in the top 250, among other changes. A lot of films that had always been in the Top 250 since the list was first created have now dropped off (mostly Classic Hollywood). I'm thinking it will take another few weeks before the dust settles. The list has had drastic changes before, but usually that was sorted after a day or two, not prolonged like this over a month. Makes me think that they're still making tweaks.

Here are the changes on August 8th compared to two weeks before:

Spoiler

And the changes as of today compared to one month ago:

Spoiler

It isn't the just the Top 250 ratings, the core ratings are changing. It could be a change in balancing foreign vs US votes, or it might just be a change in how they balance older votes so the older the vote the lower the weight. Since older votes are more likely to be US based it will drop US films and classics more.

.. well observed.

Look at the drop for Casablanca in August 2019 - it's massive, I never witnessed something like this before (in my 13 years of actively stalking the Top 250).
The same occurred to Citizen Kane, another American classic which is widely adored, I mean, it's the Citizen Kane of movies! .. um.
As two more examples: The bend of Aug 19 is clearly visible for Psycho or Rear Window.

As some of you said: We'll never know what is happening behind the scenes. It's a mystery.
But I for one didn't like the outcome.


.nl's 10 Year Comparison for the IMDb Top 250 is also fun to look at. As in, bizarre in a few cases, satisfying in others (look at all these anime ^^).

[Torgo]

Now that is interesting - stumbled upon a 2020-movie which looks a little suspicious to me - 0 checks on ICM, 8.7 at 46000 votes, not a too known film with 58% / 12 reviews on Rotten Tomatoes .. mhm. Wanting to further investigate the ratings, I got this screen:



.. which I've never seen before. Sounds reasonable to me.
Of course, 44,300 of 45,900 votes are 10/10s.

[Fergenaprido]

Wow, I've never seen that message before either. About time they acknowledged stuff like this happens, even if they don't actually do anything to prevent it.

I can't comment on the content of the film since I haven't seen it, but to me the voting manipulation reminds me of other films that stirred up nationalistic feelings among a population, like Aynabaji and Dağ II. Maybe Mario's got some insight into the response to the film since the it's from his region.

Coincidentally enough, I just added this film to my database last week (along with a bunch of other recent films that have over 10,000 votes), and on January 31st it was rated 9.2 with only 12,160 votes.

[Cippenham]

I basically ignore IMDb lists as if they did not exist nowadays but if you don’t you end up watching some films you should not feel you have to watch

[dirty_score]

I think we should replace the imdb lists with ICM ones, using the favorites/checks ratio formula of "most favorited" (or a different one).

[Teproc]

I think we should replace the imdb lists with ICM ones, using the favorites/checks ratio formula of "most favorited" (or a different one).

Do we know what those would look like? Certainly sounds good, especially since they are already search filters as it is.

[Coryn]

I think we should replace the imdb lists with ICM ones, using the favorites/checks ratio formula of "most favorited" (or a different one).

Do we know what those would look like? Certainly sounds good, especially since they are already search filters as it is.

I made a list a few days ago for this:

>100 Checks
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/top+ ... cks/coryn/

>1000 Checks
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/top+ ... cks/coryn/

If someone could show me how to include movies that are not on official lists yet it would be doable but I really don't know how.

[Torgo]

>1000 Checks
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/top+ ... cks/coryn/

Yeah, you guys realize how this has nothing to do with the original lists. Also it promotes running in circles even more.
Someone should do other examples for the genre lists, though. This is where it might get interesting - I actually enjoy having a few non-canon films in the IMDb lists for Sport, Music or such.

[Coryn]

Just providing the list, I don't agree it should be official although I would argue ICM poll list are better than IMDB's

[dirty_score]

top 250 is the one that would stay official. the rest could be replaced.

The most favorites movies are calculated by picking the movies with the highest favorite/checked count ratio. The exact formula used to determine the ratio of a movie is as follows: ratio(M) = F(M) ÷ (C(M) + 50)

Where:

M (A movie)
F(M) - Number of times movie M has been favorited
C(M) - Number of times movie M has been checked

The number at the end of the formula could change, perhaps, in some lists since we have threesholds for the current lists.

The only thing the mods would have to worry is if movies of mismatched genres enter X genre list. (example: A few years ago, Kes was in the sports lists. Although it has like 5 minutes of football training match between students, it's not a sports movie.)

[Onderhond]

I still don't understand why you'd want to dismiss the ratings of one of the biggest movie sites in the world and replace it with those of a niche site that doesn't even have ratings.

[Teproc]

I still don't understand why you'd want to dismiss the ratings of one of the biggest movie sites in the world and replace it with those of a niche site that doesn't even have ratings.

The issue with the IMDb lists is that they're entirely artificial, they're just an arbitrary search filter that doesn't correspond to an actual list. I agree that IMDB is a valuable source, but those lists specifically are a bit of an anachronism.

[Onderhond]

The issue with the IMDb lists is that they're entirely artificial, they're just an arbitrary search filter that doesn't correspond to an actual list. I agree that IMDB is a valuable source, but those lists specifically are a bit of an anachronism.

Yeah, but how are lists based on ICM/favorites any different?

I mean, the only way to get rid of this "problem" is to get rid of the lists altogether. Which would be a shame imo.

[Torgo]

I still don't understand why you'd want to dismiss the ratings of one of the biggest movie sites in the world and replace it with those of a niche site that doesn't even have ratings.

This.

How many people do even consequently use the fav & dislike feature?

[dirty_score]

I still don't understand why you'd want to dismiss the ratings of one of the biggest movie sites in the world and replace it with those of a niche site that doesn't even have ratings.

I'm not dismissing anything. The Top250 would remain official. It's a niche site but it's still its own thing, doesn't need to be reliant on IMDb hence the proposal of the formula. But if you like ratings so much maybe we could petition Marijn to add that as a feature, but then, the site would have to be renamed to Icheckandratemovies.com

I still don't understand why you'd want to dismiss the ratings of one of the biggest movie sites in the world and replace it with those of a niche site that doesn't even have ratings.

This.

How many people do even consequently use the fav & dislike feature?

If you pay attention you'll see that a LOT of people actually use those features.

[Onderhond]

I'm not dismissing anything. The Top250 would remain official. It's a niche site but it's still its own thing, doesn't need to be reliant on IMDb hence the proposal of the formula. But if you like ratings so much maybe we could petition Marijn to add that as a feature, but then, the site would have to be renamed to Icheckandratemovies.com

It doesn't need to "rely" on IMDb, it's just that IMDb gives you the aggregated opinion of one of the biggest film-based users bases on the internet, which imo holds more value than what the much more limited ICM crowd thinks are great films. We already have 2.5 lists for that.

[xianjiro]

Do we have any concrete examples of how an iCM derived history or romance list would compare to the IMDb lists? How about decades? Say 1930, 1970, and 2000?

The other thing, have any mods weighed in on what their thinking is? I know there was some talk in the past about genre and decade list changes though I've no idea where the discussion is on this subject at present. But I'm somewhat suspicious that nothing has overwhelmed the group as screaming: this is it! this is the way we need to go.

[Torgo]

Yeah, were are the examples if those lists are so cool?

There's news on the Jasenovac front ..

Now that is interesting - stumbled upon a 2020-movie which looks a little suspicious to me - 0 checks on ICM, 8.7 at 46000 votes, not a too known film with 58% / 12 reviews on Rotten Tomatoes .. mhm. Wanting to further investigate the ratings, I got this screen:

Spoiler

.. which I've never seen before. Sounds reasonable to me.
Of course, 44,300 of 45,900 votes are 10/10s.

As of yesterday, the film is down to only 21,000, so more than half of the votes have been deleted in 10 days! That's something, eh. Ratings page of that film is still flagged as dubious.

[xianjiro]

In order to respond to another question, I ended up visiting my IMDb page and as is usually the case, still have three titles to see before I get my 2020 250 badge. One I'll probably just get on ILL if and when the other two become possible, but that brings up a question: has anyone seen any information about Disney's plans for disc releases now that they've got a streaming platform? Both Soul and Hamilton only seem available on Disney+, to which I have no access and probably the one I'd be least willing to cough up for. At this stage, my priority would be for Prime, Hulu, and maybe Hulu bundled with HBO Max if I suddenly won the lottery.

I realize that discs will become increasingly scarce and have noticed the move to R/W discs for 'less popular' titles. I know FOX tried to ax discs for The Simpsons, but that didn't last more than a year or two, so I guess I'll be able to play catch up for a number of season I haven't seen yet. However, I've yet to see much formally stated other than either going to dual release (streaming/theatrical) and obviously some titles will just go directly to streaming (replacing the old direct to VHS/DVD, (not sure I've run across a direct to BRD, but why not, right?)

[Torgo]

Yeah, were are the examples if those lists are so cool?

There's news on the Jasenovac front ..

Now that is interesting - stumbled upon a 2020-movie which looks a little suspicious to me - 0 checks on ICM, 8.7 at 46000 votes, not a too known film with 58% / 12 reviews on Rotten Tomatoes .. mhm. Wanting to further investigate the ratings, I got this screen:

Spoiler

.. which I've never seen before. Sounds reasonable to me.
Of course, 44,300 of 45,900 votes are 10/10s.

As of yesterday, the film is down to only 21,000, so more than half of the votes have been deleted in 10 days! That's something, eh. Ratings page of that film is still flagged as dubious.

Just had to think of the Jasenovac case; curious how the relentless 1-star assault on Mignonnes (Cuties) wasn't curtained at all - and I doubt that these were all regular IMDb users.

[xianjiro]

Yeah, were are the examples if those lists are so cool?

There's news on the Jasenovac front ..

Now that is interesting - stumbled upon a 2020-movie which looks a little suspicious to me - 0 checks on ICM, 8.7 at 46000 votes, not a too known film with 58% / 12 reviews on Rotten Tomatoes .. mhm. Wanting to further investigate the ratings, I got this screen:

Spoiler

.. which I've never seen before. Sounds reasonable to me.
Of course, 44,300 of 45,900 votes are 10/10s.

As of yesterday, the film is down to only 21,000, so more than half of the votes have been deleted in 10 days! That's something, eh. Ratings page of that film is still flagged as dubious.

Just had to think of the Jasenovac case; curious how the relentless 1-star assault on Mignonnes (Cuties) wasn't curtained at all - and I doubt that these were all regular IMDb users.

Absolutely correct. I'm sure I've said it before, IMDb should have some sort of minimum number of votes before the count. This isn't the first film it's happened with and I'm sure won't be the last, but clearly IMDb doesn't care and no one has even thought of suing their asses (that I know of) which would certainly make the point in a way they would actually understand.

Hard to say what Netflix thought about the 'scandal'. As the saying goes - there's no such thing as bad publicity.

[brokenface]

In order to respond to another question, I ended up visiting my IMDb page and as is usually the case, still have three titles to see before I get my 2020 250 badge. One I'll probably just get on ILL if and when the other two become possible, but that brings up a question: has anyone seen any information about Disney's plans for disc releases now that they've got a streaming platform? Both Soul and Hamilton only seem available on Disney+, to which I have no access and probably the one I'd be least willing to cough up for. At this stage, my priority would be for Prime, Hulu, and maybe Hulu bundled with HBO Max if I suddenly won the lottery.

Not really known. I'm sure they'll still release discs if they see profit in it but they may wait longer to give the streaming service more exclusivity. They may also focus on expensive collector's editions. The mass market for physical media is dying.

Other thing with this is with Disney now owning Fox catalogue it may become rarer to get those titles on disc too. Disney are known for not licensing titles out.

Fwiw, i don't know how it works where you are, but the way i use streaming services is to jump around between them. do a month or two until I've watched most of what I'm interested in then move on to another. Doesn't work out too expensive if you only subscribe to one at a time, esp as you can get trials with some.

[Torgo]

Just had to think of the Jasenovac case; curious how the relentless 1-star assault on Mignonnes (Cuties) wasn't curtained at all - and I doubt that these were all regular IMDb users.

Absolutely correct. I'm sure I've said it before, IMDb should have some sort of minimum number of votes before the count. This isn't the first film it's happened with and I'm sure won't be the last, [...]

While you are correct and we still remember the misogynistic attacks on Captain Marvel (still 6% 1-star ratings) or how Black Panther got relatively many 1-star votes, the Cuties case is extreme. A not too audacious Cahiers-type of film which usually would score somewhere between 6.3 and 7.5 (my wild guess) bombed town to 3.0 - never seen that before.

Regarding the marketing effect .. might be true, you never know

[xianjiro]

In order to respond to another question, I ended up visiting my IMDb page and as is usually the case, still have three titles to see before I get my 2020 250 badge. One I'll probably just get on ILL if and when the other two become possible, but that brings up a question: has anyone seen any information about Disney's plans for disc releases now that they've got a streaming platform? Both Soul and Hamilton only seem available on Disney+, to which I have no access and probably the one I'd be least willing to cough up for. At this stage, my priority would be for Prime, Hulu, and maybe Hulu bundled with HBO Max if I suddenly won the lottery.

Not really known. I'm sure they'll still release discs if they see profit in it but they may wait longer to give the streaming service more exclusivity. They may also focus on expensive collector's editions. The mass market for physical media is dying.

Other thing with this is with Disney now owning Fox catalogue it may become rarer to get those titles on disc too. Disney are known for not licensing titles out.

Fwiw, i don't know how it works where you are, but the way i use streaming services is to jump around between them. do a month or two until I've watched most of what I'm interested in then move on to another. Doesn't work out too expensive if you only subscribe to one at a time, esp as you can get trials with some.

Thanks - all makes sense and I've certainly seen nothing about plans for discs going forward.

I still have barriers to signing up with any services, but that's a personal issue and unrelated.

It will be interesting to see how libraries adapt to the decline of discs and continued rise of siloed media in the future.

[xianjiro]

Just had to think of the Jasenovac case; curious how the relentless 1-star assault on Mignonnes (Cuties) wasn't curtained at all - and I doubt that these were all regular IMDb users.

Absolutely correct. I'm sure I've said it before, IMDb should have some sort of minimum number of votes before the count. This isn't the first film it's happened with and I'm sure won't be the last, [...]

While you are correct and we still remember the misogynistic attacks on Captain Marvel (still 6% 1-star ratings) or how Black Panther got relatively many 1-star votes, the Cuties case is extreme. A not too audacious Cahiers-type of film which usually would score somewhere between 6.3 and 7.5 (my wild guess) bombed town to 3.0 - never seen that before.

Regarding the marketing effect .. might be true, you never know

Wish I could remember the name of the Indian film that was similarly targeted by Bangladeshi "patriots" so we could add it to the list. If I can remember it, I'll post.

[OldAle1]

Absolutely correct. I'm sure I've said it before, IMDb should have some sort of minimum number of votes before the count. This isn't the first film it's happened with and I'm sure won't be the last, [...]

While you are correct and we still remember the misogynistic attacks on Captain Marvel (still 6% 1-star ratings) or how Black Panther got relatively many 1-star votes, the Cuties case is extreme. A not too audacious Cahiers-type of film which usually would score somewhere between 6.3 and 7.5 (my wild guess) bombed town to 3.0 - never seen that before.

Regarding the marketing effect .. might be true, you never know

Wish I could remember the name of the Indian film that was similarly targeted by Bangladeshi "patriots" so we could add it to the list. If I can remember it, I'll post.

I believe you're thinking of Gunday, #36 on the Bottom 100.

I've said it before, and I won't go into it in any great deal at this time (unless someone else wants to), but it's shit like this that makes me not respect IMDb lists at all. There is very little integrity to the ratings, particularly when it comes to anything recent with a lot of press, good or bad.

[pitchorneirda]

https://www.imdb.com/list/ls089640142/

Can somebody have access to my list?
I'm 100% sure I've set the privacy settings to "Public" but it doesn't work if I'm not connected...
Anybody aware of this issue?