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The quest to rescue the IMDb lists

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#841

Post by Fergenaprido »

pitchorneirda wrote: February 25th, 2021, 9:01 pm https://www.imdb.com/list/ls089640142/

Can somebody have access to my list?
I'm 100% sure I've set the privacy settings to "Public" but it doesn't work if I'm not connected...
Anybody aware of this issue?
Nope. Says it's private to me.
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#842

Post by xianjiro »

OldAle1 wrote: February 25th, 2021, 8:48 pm
xianjiro wrote: February 25th, 2021, 8:43 pm
Torgo wrote: February 25th, 2021, 4:46 pm

While you are correct and we still remember the misogynistic attacks on Captain Marvel (still 6% 1-star ratings) or how Black Panther got relatively many 1-star votes, the Cuties case is extreme. A not too audacious Cahiers-type of film which usually would score somewhere between 6.3 and 7.5 (my wild guess) bombed town to 3.0 - never seen that before.

Regarding the marketing effect .. might be true, you never know :)
Wish I could remember the name of the Indian film that was similarly targeted by Bangladeshi "patriots" so we could add it to the list. If I can remember it, I'll post.
I believe you're thinking of Gunday, #36 on the Bottom 100.

I've said it before, and I won't go into it in any great deal at this time (unless someone else wants to), but it's shit like this that makes me not respect IMDb lists at all. There is very little integrity to the ratings, particularly when it comes to anything recent with a lot of press, good or bad.
Yup, absolutely! I didn't think to look at that list even though I brought it iCM. d'oh!

82% are 1 star though Top 1000 voters only give 28% 1 star and they traditionally are harder on most movies than the 'average' user. On top of that, there are almost 900 reviews many (most?) like this:
[ 1/10
Wrong information
mukut-4572527 July 2019
They exhibit wrong information in their movie, they said '71 war was betweens India and Pakistan but it's totally wrong. It was between India nd Bangla join force vs Pakistan army.
btw, the offending "wrong information" is in the prologue if I remember correctly and has little bearing on the overall film.

I've seen Gunday, but it's been quite a lot of movies ago. I gave it a 5/10 as an honest rating.

As I remember, we tried to get IMDb to address this on (don't)GetSatisfaction to no avail. And given that review is dated 2019, I'm guessing that the bots are still hard at work. They even seem a bit more sophisticated now.

Anyway, I'd call this as bad as Cuties, but these are the only two examples I'm aware of.
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#843

Post by xianjiro »

Fergenaprido wrote: February 25th, 2021, 9:06 pm
pitchorneirda wrote: February 25th, 2021, 9:01 pm https://www.imdb.com/list/ls089640142/

Can somebody have access to my list?
I'm 100% sure I've set the privacy settings to "Public" but it doesn't work if I'm not connected...
Anybody aware of this issue?
Nope. Says it's private to me.
same for me as well
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#844

Post by Torgo »

"This list is not public", indeed
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#845

Post by pitchorneirda »

This is driving me crazy
"Art is like a fire, it is born from the very thing it burns" - Jean-Luc Godard
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#846

Post by xianjiro »

pitchorneirda wrote: February 25th, 2021, 9:44 pm This is driving me crazy
how can I help? I've got IMDb open ...
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#847

Post by pitchorneirda »

xianjiro wrote: February 25th, 2021, 10:05 pm
pitchorneirda wrote: February 25th, 2021, 9:44 pm This is driving me crazy
how can I help? I've got IMDb open ...
Don't worry, I bypassed the problem, thanks anyway
"Art is like a fire, it is born from the very thing it burns" - Jean-Luc Godard
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#848

Post by xianjiro »

pitchorneirda wrote: February 25th, 2021, 10:25 pm
xianjiro wrote: February 25th, 2021, 10:05 pm
pitchorneirda wrote: February 25th, 2021, 9:44 pm This is driving me crazy
how can I help? I've got IMDb open ...
Don't worry, I bypassed the problem, thanks anyway
:thumbsup:
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#849

Post by Torgo »

Ah - spotted another one. Dil Bechara (2020) is odd: stumbled upon it as part of the Top 1000, which start at a rating of 7.6, and the film has a displayed 6.6 - huh? At the same time, arithmetic mean is 9.3 (at 112,000 votes!), 84% of the ratings are a perfect 10/10. Top 1000 voters give it 5.5. :ermm:

It's an Indian remake of The Fault in Our Stars (2014), by the way.
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#850

Post by Fergenaprido »

I think we discussed this a few months ago. It was released shortly after the male lead committed suicide, which his fans largely attribute to nepotism in Bollywood. That's an oversimplification, I know, but this film was upvoted a lot while some other contemporary films starring/produced by those perceived to have benefitted from the nepotism at the expense of others were downvoted (I think).
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#851

Post by xianjiro »

Well at least IMDb did something about it. If what Ferg says is a complete picture - ie: real fans over-voting - I have to wonder why IMDb cares to "adjust" this but ignore films which have been impacted by bots. And over 7700 reviews! That's pretty incredible. But this suggests IMDb cares more about correcting the upside.

It's still pretty amazing that it made the I Top 250 with such numbers.

IDK, I think I blame what has become of the Internet more than anything.
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#852

Post by Gorro »

Another brigaded movie is this Brazilian one, which is an official check: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7825208/
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#853

Post by Torgo »

Gorro wrote: February 26th, 2021, 11:08 am Another brigaded movie is this Brazilian one, which is an official check: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7825208/
Good find, Gorro!
It's different in that there is no warning on the ratings section of the film, something I have until now only encountered with Jasenovac and the Bollywood-Fault-one.
You instantly recognize that Marighella isn't exactly a trash film, though, lol. With 3.1 at over 30k votes, it should be deep in the Bottom 100, but isn't, that's where you know that something is off.

Fergenaprido wrote: February 26th, 2021, 3:44 am I think we discussed this a few months ago. It was released shortly after the male lead committed suicide, which his fans largely attribute to nepotism in Bollywood. That's an oversimplification, I know, but this film was upvoted a lot while some other contemporary films starring/produced by those perceived to have benefitted from the nepotism at the expense of others were downvoted (I think).
Ah, I only remember the other half of the story, namely a film of the "bad side" being bombarded with 1-star-votes. Well ..

xianjiro wrote: February 26th, 2021, 5:58 am ie: real fans over-voting - I have to wonder why IMDb cares to "adjust" this [...] IMDb cares more about correcting the upside.
Probably true. The Top 250 is sacred, you know.
In the years around 2010, so many films disappeared from the list within a day or a few, mostly Bollywood. Folks got lazy in Jeff's headquarter. :rolleyes:
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#854

Post by WalterNeff »

Seven years is a hell of long quest, just sayin'. World War II didn't even last that long.
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#855

Post by xianjiro »

Afghanistan might be more to your liking then. ;)
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#856

Post by Torgo »

WalterNeff wrote: February 27th, 2021, 2:38 am Seven years is a hell of long quest, just sayin'. World War II didn't even last that long.
IMDb is more like our 'nam.
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#857

Post by brokenface »

How long's there been both Drishyam and its remake both on the IMDB top 250 right next to each other?! Kind of bizarre coincidence.
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#858

Post by OldAle1 »

I just noticed that too, and I usually look at the list about once a month or so, maybe once every 2 months. So I don't think that long, plus the 2013 only has 32k votes so it hasn't been eligible for all that long I think.

Really makes me excited to try to complete the list!
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#859

Post by dirty_score »

I suppose the release of the sequel has to do something about it
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#860

Post by Fergenaprido »

It happened last week, and yes, the sequel is likely the reason it popped back in. In general, when a sequel or a remake is released, the original film often gets a bump in the Top 250 (or reenters for a while). It happened with Beauty and the Beast and Aladdin, for example.
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#861

Post by xianjiro »

Torgo wrote: February 27th, 2021, 3:35 am
WalterNeff wrote: February 27th, 2021, 2:38 am Seven years is a hell of long quest, just sayin'. World War II didn't even last that long.
IMDb is more like our 'nam.
the is iCM our America and porn/bo lists/Bollywood/some other things our Civil War/wedge issues?
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#862

Post by Torgo »

Watch out Breaking Bad & The Wire:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11992526/ratings
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#863

Post by kongs_speech »

Fuck fuck fuck fuck, I hate these troll raters, whether it's positive or negative meddling. Just fucking give movies an honest score.
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#864

Post by Onderhond »

Torgo wrote: May 6th, 2021, 4:47 pm Watch out Breaking Bad & The Wire:
I can definitely imagine some Arabic film fan watching Breaking Bad, roll his eyes and utter the Arabic equivalent of jeez louise. I mean, lolzies
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#865

Post by Torgo »

Look at the numbers yourself. 90,5% 10/10 vs. 66% 10/10 for BB; 98% (!) ratings of 9 or 10 points for Harga and "only" 86% for BB. And yeah, this might look similar to each other, but you very much are aware of how damn hard to impossible it is to squeeze out the last missing percents and permille for IMDb ratings .. they're the equivalent of crystal meth, yo. :P

(Not even going seriously for that silly argument of US/non-US, because you can see at your very own vote breakdown that more than 75% of votes come from outside of America *sigh* (And that Heisenberg stuff could also be seen in the non-Western hemisphere))

But we will see - maybe Harga truly is fantastic, how would I know. Could be. The numbers just look too absurd for now. Usually, they turn out to be bogus figures.
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#866

Post by xianjiro »

Bogles the mind, it does.

I wonder if people actually get bot programmers to spam their productions. I mean, why wouldn't they, especially if they had people in their circle who had such skills. Or, I could see, "hey everyone, get on IMDb and rate us a 10" to all the crew. "And don't forget to tell your friends!" That also seems in the realm of possible to me.

If it is released with English subs, I'd probably be willing to give it a go just to see if it really is the best thing since the discovery of oral sex, but let's just say I ain't gunna be holding my breath for any TV series no how.
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#867

Post by Onderhond »

Torgo wrote: May 7th, 2021, 1:27 am Look at the numbers yourself.
Well yes, but Harga is super recent, so there's always that bias. Once it becomes "popular" enough to grow beyond its local popularity, you'll see the 1s fly in.
This is a vote over 8000 voters, Breaking Bad has 1.5 million votes. With 66%+ giving it a perfect score. In what world? :shrug:
Torgo wrote: May 7th, 2021, 1:27 am US/non-US
It was a Western/Arabic region argument. Not quite the same.
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#868

Post by OldAle1 »

xianjiro wrote: May 7th, 2021, 5:02 am Bogles the mind, it does.

I wonder if people actually get bot programmers to spam their productions. I mean, why wouldn't they, especially if they had people in their circle who had such skills. Or, I could see, "hey everyone, get on IMDb and rate us a 10" to all the crew. "And don't forget to tell your friends!" That also seems in the realm of possible to me.

If it is released with English subs, I'd probably be willing to give it a go just to see if it really is the best thing since the discovery of oral sex, but let's just say I ain't gunna be holding my breath for any TV series no how.
This kind of thing used to happen all the time - on both IMDb and Amazon - and back when both sites had forums, people would bring this up all the time, rarely to any avail at all, no matter how obvious the fraud. This is really why I have probably bored a lot of people here with my carping about the complete lack of value of IMDb lists - they simply cannot be trusted as fairly voted on at all. Numerous films almost got into the top 250 - or even very rarely did get into the top 250 briefly - as a result of deliberate campaign voting, with individuals blatantly making up thousands of fake accounts to vote their favorites up and competitors down. And the #1 film on the list the past 14 years benefitted from a war waged by partisans of the films currently at #2 and #4.

On Amazon it was a little different because (at the time) you had to write reviews, and the goal was a little different - to get people to buy your product and to get it onto the bestseller list at least for a moment. Still, one rather infamous low-rent director managed for a while to have his extraordinarily terrible and amateurish film spotlighted with close to 99% 5-star reviews, which did not go unnoticed in the forums (it was also talked about a bit on IMDb); and it was quite obvious that he or a couple of his associates had written virtually all of the 500+ adoring reviews themselves. This was a good 10-12 years ago and the ratings are no longer quite so extreme but still - over 50% top ratings for a film that probably couldn't win any awards in a high school competition.
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#869

Post by xianjiro »

Yeah, my writer's group talked quite a bit about how people gamed the Amazon system. I get it, you're a small timer in Podunk wherever and you're just trying to make back your expenses and maybe start to earn something off your writing. You have to get creative. Some people/companies can afford to spend hundreds/millions on marketing. If you don't have that kind of budget, but lots of friends or friends who program bots, or bots who are friends ...

I'm not sure I agree that because one or two movies have made this or that list because of manipulation that means the lists have no value. The Oscars have been - not sure the best word - used and misused, slanted, skewed, whatever to the detriment of some and the benefit of others. That's also known. It happens. Maybe it's better to have that front and center as a part of the lists, so everyone realizes what the issues with that kind of list are. Use that to judge the list's quality if one cares enough.
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#870

Post by OldAle1 »

Oh, I don't disagree with your second paragraph - I'm mostly talking about the value of the lists to me, personally. I can't take them seriously, which is why despite having been on the IMDb forums for 12 years and having seen close to 12k films, I never made any effort to finish off the top 250, and still haven't. I don't necessarily think there are loads of films on there that even I would call "illegitimate" at any particular moment, but I know it's happened so often over time, and I've seen the way the process played out, so I just consider the whole process and the lists that come from it a failure. But for people starting out as cinephiles and interested in what's popular, I guess they aren't the very worst lists around, and some like the decades lists from earlier years and a few of the genre lists (film noir for example) are decent enough for what they are.

The same questionable voting is true for the Oscars as well, sure, and if I've made more effort to watch those films it's mostly because on the whole the "genre" of the Oscar film appeals to me more than the "genre" of the IMDb favorite - and also there are only a handful of new films to watch every year if you want to keep up-to-date with any given Oscar category, whereas pre-COVID there were dozens of short-lived entries in the top 250 every year, and keeping up meant watching a hell of a lot of terrible-looking Bollywood and Hollywood films not geared at all to tastes like mine.
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#871

Post by Torgo »

OldAle1 wrote: May 7th, 2021, 11:56 am This is really why I have probably bored a lot of people here with my carping about the complete lack of value of IMDb lists - they simply cannot be trusted as fairly voted on at all.
That's why the universe created me, only to balance things out and utter on a monthly basis how perfect and reliable those very scores are. :teehee:

More seriously, and I really am writing this regularly .. I believe things get evened out after a while. At the latest when they rose high enough.


Exceptions prove the rule, yadda yadda, and so on, Ozy has a legit score believe it or not, et cetera, ad infinitum
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#872

Post by Fergenaprido »

OldAle1 wrote: May 7th, 2021, 4:56 pm and also there are only a handful of new films to watch every year if you want to keep up-to-date with any given Oscar category, whereas pre-COVID there were dozens of short-lived entries in the top 250 every year, and keeping up meant watching a hell of a lot of terrible-looking Bollywood and Hollywood films not geared at all to tastes like mine.
Actually only about 10-20 new films enter the Top 250 each year (a mix of recent releases and older films crossing the threshold for the first time). The rest are films reentering the list after crossing the new threshold, or the same 4-6 films that bounce around the bottom ranks swapping places with each other. The last time there were more than 20 was in 2016 when a shift in the imdb algorithms caused the explosion of Indian films on the list, and 11 of them entered the list (albeit briefly) for the first time.
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#873

Post by Lammetje »

OldAle1 wrote: May 7th, 2021, 4:56 pm Oh, I don't disagree with your second paragraph - I'm mostly talking about the value of the lists to me, personally. I can't take them seriously, which is why despite having been on the IMDb forums for 12 years and having seen close to 12k films, I never made any effort to finish off the top 250, and still haven't.
But if someday you'll be at 249/250, I know you're going to watch that last movie. Even if a certain famous Indian actor is in it. :P But please don't do that other thing mentioned in my sig!
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#874

Post by OldAle1 »

Lammetje wrote: May 9th, 2021, 9:58 pm
OldAle1 wrote: May 7th, 2021, 4:56 pm Oh, I don't disagree with your second paragraph - I'm mostly talking about the value of the lists to me, personally. I can't take them seriously, which is why despite having been on the IMDb forums for 12 years and having seen close to 12k films, I never made any effort to finish off the top 250, and still haven't.
But if someday you'll be at 249/250, I know you're going to watch that last movie. Even if a certain famous Indian actor is in it. :P But please don't do that other thing mentioned in my sig!
Anything's possible. I sort of decided years ago that if I ever got to 240 films left without really trying, I'd go ahead and finish off the list, whatever was on it. But I haven't come all that close to 240 for a while - I'm at 233 right now and have fluctuated between 231-234 for years. I look at the list about once a month I suppose out of habit and there are never enough films that I actually want to see left for me to bother. I just don't have enough completion-obsession to go there, not when there are dozens of better official lists and hundreds of other lists that are more interesting.
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#875

Post by OldAle1 »

Fergenaprido wrote: May 7th, 2021, 10:41 pm
OldAle1 wrote: May 7th, 2021, 4:56 pm and also there are only a handful of new films to watch every year if you want to keep up-to-date with any given Oscar category, whereas pre-COVID there were dozens of short-lived entries in the top 250 every year, and keeping up meant watching a hell of a lot of terrible-looking Bollywood and Hollywood films not geared at all to tastes like mine.
Actually only about 10-20 new films enter the Top 250 each year (a mix of recent releases and older films crossing the threshold for the first time). The rest are films reentering the list after crossing the new threshold, or the same 4-6 films that bounce around the bottom ranks swapping places with each other. The last time there were more than 20 was in 2016 when a shift in the imdb algorithms caused the explosion of Indian films on the list, and 11 of them entered the list (albeit briefly) for the first time.
That's interesting, thanks. Huh. I see that there was higher volitility in 2015 also, and in most years through 2009. I suppose it seems like more either because I'm remembering the old days, and/or because so little of what I haven't seen looks interesting, and it just always seems like there are new and crappy-looking things to avoid.
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#876

Post by xianjiro »

Lammetje wrote: May 9th, 2021, 9:58 pm
OldAle1 wrote: May 7th, 2021, 4:56 pm Oh, I don't disagree with your second paragraph - I'm mostly talking about the value of the lists to me, personally. I can't take them seriously, which is why despite having been on the IMDb forums for 12 years and having seen close to 12k films, I never made any effort to finish off the top 250, and still haven't.
But if someday you'll be at 249/250, I know you're going to watch that last movie. Even if a certain famous Indian actor is in it. :P But please don't do that other thing mentioned in my sig!
The only thing standing in my way is Hamilton!
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#877

Post by Torgo »

Just noticed by chance how a few films on the IMDb decade lists had more movement in their ranks than usual, so I decided to go to the famous .nl-site to take a closer look ..
IMDb Top 250 of 13 May 2021

It's no extreme raid like we have all Bollywood vanishing, but it does stand out how a handful of rather uncommon Top 250 films leave the list and how almost exclusively a handful of acclaimed classics switch in for that.
It's almost like .. if I had to guess, I'd say a few teenage accounts have been terminated and respected elder voters of classic cinema were pushed. Don't you think?

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.. okay, can confirm there's a ton more movement than regular.

Up:
+10 8.3 North by Northwest (1959)
+7 8.2 Metropolis (1927)
+9 8.2 Double Indemnity (1944)
+6 8.2 The Treasure of the Sierra Madre (1948)
+8 8.1 Det Sjunde inseglet (1957)
+10 8.1 The Bridge on the River Kwai (1957)
+9 8.1 Sherlock Jr. (1924)
+7 8.1 To Be or Not to Be (1942)
+8 8.1 Les Quatre cents coups (1959)

Down:
−4 8.3 Hamilton (2020)
−4 8.3 Taare Zameen Par (2007)
−9 8.2 Dangal (2016)
−5 8.2 Green Book (2018)
−5 8.2 Batman Begins (2005)
−5 8.1 Shutter Island (2010)
−5 8.1 Kill Bill: Vol. 1 (2003)
−6 8.1 Andhadhun (2018)


What do ya say?
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OldAle1
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#878

Post by OldAle1 »

Yeah I noticed it - seemed like more movement on the top lists update page than usual, so I went to IMDb and - wow, went from 233 to 238 overnight. So yeah, much bigger movement than usual. Your reasoning certainly seems plausible on the surface but really I have no idea how/why they tweak their algorithm or mess around with the voting database. One can be assured that it's ultimately all about money, because everything IMDb is all about money, but how this fits into it, no clue.

Getting perilously close to the magic 240, where I have to decide whether I actually want to bother trying to finish off the list or not.
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Torgo
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#879

Post by Torgo »

OldAle1 wrote: May 14th, 2021, 12:04 am Yeah I noticed it - seemed like more movement on the top lists update page than usual,
Come to think of it .. that would be a very easy way to spot a difference - if only I got those update PNs in time or at all, that is. :facepalm: :D
It was completely by accident for me, was checking something in the 1940s.

I can calm you down about the 240-threshold - as often as I noticed quality steps and improvements on this damn list over the last 13 years, they get back to where they came from OR WORSE every time so far. :lol: We'll see. Often it's indeed just the algorithm, like the average IMDb rating across all the page going from 6.8 to 6.9 or 7.0, it has a strong impact on the formula. Apparently it isn't disclosed anymore at the bottom of the Top 250 page, hm.
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Fergenaprido
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#880

Post by Fergenaprido »

Heh, I also noticed it about 20 minutes ago and was going to post about it on here. :D Definitely some sort of change to their algorithm, will be interesting to see if the changes are temporary or long-lasting. Likely they just sped up the inevitable for some films dropping off (like Anand) or delayed it for others (It Happened One Night)

Also, they don't disclose the site-wide mean on their FAQ anymore either.
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