Game of Thrones

[outdoorcats]

Spoiler

Sam is pretty much the one character I'm sure will survive this series. He's a stand in for Martin, and someone has to write all this shit down. (ok...I'm like 60% sure. but that's WAY higher than anyone else)

Depending on how closely they follow GRRM's original plan, I'm assuming some minor characters like Davos and Brienne will survive when bigger characters - the Starks, Jon, Daenerys, Tyrion, Jaime - get surprise deaths. His whole thing is about subverting expectations regarding character deaths.

[Ivan0716]

I think it's too late in the game for any deaths to be surprising anymore.

[outdoorcats]

I don't know, I think a lot of people (at least ones I know who watch the show in RL) are certain Tyrion and Daenerys are safe for instance. I'm pretty sure they're going to get their hearts broken on both counts.

[outdoorcats]

[funkybusiness]

I have only one comment on the episode:
PREACHES
PREACHES
MOTHER OF LEECHES
THE LORD OF LIGHT
DONE HER RIGHT

[ChrisReynolds]

I thought this recent George R. R. Martin interview was pretty funny in the light of the last few episodes.

At 4:00, GRRM says:

What amazing fascinating creatures human beings are with all these contradictions inside themselves. That’s the sort of characters I want to explore, not the guy who’s just “I am Joe Hero”, or his alternate, “I’m the Dark Lord, I’m here to bring darkness over the Earth.” What a job description.

[ChrisReynolds]

[flaiky]

Wait, why are we all using spoilers? I'm sure anyone who cares about them will avoid this thread.

I think you're all jumping the gun on judging the show overall without seeing the final 3 (feature length) episodes. Especially regarding A-list deaths

Well I hope they can bring it back, and I love Cersei as a character so I'm excited to see how all that plays out, but however good the next three episodes are I think I'll struggle to forgive the whimper ending to the White Walker storyline. I find it bizarre that it was built up from the very first episode, increasing in importance to the point that it was all the characters could focus on, only for it to be over with one big battle - no twists, no surprises, not even any stakes if virtually everyone we cared about survived. It's not like I was desperate for the thrill and shock of a big death, but I definitely wanted the severity of the battle - after so much hype over the unprecedented, horrifying danger they faced - to be realistically handled. The amount of characters who were inches away from death only to be saved by a sudden hero appearance was pretty ridiculous. How did Sam survive? He's never been a fighter. If the writers weren't ready to kill him off yet, put him in the crypt. If Brienne and Jaime needed to survive, show them fighting ferociously until the end - or even running and hiding ffs - rather than being overwhelmed (yet not ravaged?) and teasing us with their deaths. It was just cheap dramatics that served to undermine the threat.

If Arya posed as Bran she'd have to kill him and skin him first lol. Pretty dark even for Arya.

Bran could have sacrificed himself. If he knows everything then he knows about Arya's powers, and he could have insisted that she use them because the world will come to an end otherwise. Real threat, real stakes, real consequences for the Starks, and a moral conflict that is pretty perfect for GoT. It would have been more effective near the very end of the show (which is where I think the final showdown with the Night King should have been anyway) but shocking and powerful nonetheless. I expected both Arya and Bran's powers to be used in the episode. Where was Bran the whole time he was 'ravening'? (I'm sure there's a GoT universe word for his skill, anyone?) He didn't get any useful information at all, from what I could tell?

"They literally could have sent everyone south to fight Cersei and just left Theon's force, Bran, and Arya (waiting in ambush) in the Godswood and achieved the same victory." is just hindsight speaking. They didn't even have a plan for dealing with the Night King after drawing him to the woods, no one in-universe planned for Arya to be there and for her to kill the Night King, except apparently the ones with foresight.

But the 'lack of plan' is just another problem with the episode. We used to get whole scenes of characters discussing their battle tactics and analysing their opponents. Why hadn't they thought about it more? Jon has seen the Night King raise battle casualties from the dead to join his army; how did he forget that? They said outright that the only way to defeat the undead army was by killing the NK himself, and they purposely stuck Bran in the woods as bait, so why even bother sending their entire army into battle to be slaughtered? I swear GoT used to be smarter than this.

To be fair, this episode(and the finale to the White Walker arc) couldn't have been anything other than a huge disappointment, once they got 90% of the surviving cast to Winterfell there was only two possible outcomes: the White Walkers get wiped out, or they kill (almost)everyone, and those that survived would be too depleted to play any further roles in the storyline(the battle for the throne), and I would argue that's even more anti-climatic.

Not necessarily, I thought it was possible that the surviving core characters would panic in the face of the chaos, regroup and escape for shelter at a planned location. From there it could have been exciting to see them defeat Cersei and the Night King, not with armies but through cerebral planning and using the skills/powers they have learned over the show. With Bran, Arya, and the dragons, they still had a legitimate chance. Personally I don't need another huge battle episode.

One thing I do love is that Arya has become the undeniable, badass MVP of the show. Her storyline, with everything she went through as an adolescent, has been compelling and moving from start to finish so it's satisfying as hell to see it pay off. Are we to believe that she's the prince(ss) who was promised?

[ChrisReynolds]

Where was Bran the whole time he was 'ravening'? (I'm sure there's a GoT universe word for his skill, anyone?) He didn't get any useful information at all, from what I could tell?

It's known as "warging", and it's a big thing in the book, with Jon Snow and Arya also sometimes able to warg into their direwolves in their dreams. For whatever reason, this has been downplayed in the show. I really did think Bran's warging was going to be a crucial part of the battle, but he warged into the ravens, looked at the Night King, and did nothing else. He didn't even let anybody know where the Night King was. I suppose the idea was that he already knew everything that was going to happen and he wanted to look vulnerable for the Night King.

[Ivan0716]

...

I think you might be looking at things from the perspective of a viewer rather than the characters. It's easy to entertain these theories now that we have seen how easily the Night King was dispatched, but everyone who went to Winterfell expected it to be a last stand, they didn't even have an escape plan, it was literally win or die. In the first two episodes how many times have we heard something like "This is a pointless battle and we're all gonna die, but either we fight now or we wait and get fucked anyway".

I think the lack of a battle plan was a result of the state of desperation they were in and uncertainty regarding what they were up against: there couldn't have been a lot of time between their arrival at Winterfell and the attack; and sure, some of them have experiences fighting against wights and white walkers, but against their entire army and the Night King himself? It was obvious from the last episode that no one had any idea how they were going to kill the NK(maybe except Bran*?), they even had doubts whether or not he could even be harmed by dragonglass and whatever weapons they have at their disposable. Can you really imagine someone pitching the idea of leaving a few people to face the entire Night Army while everyone else march down South? It would be an extremely risky move even they were confident that it would work...if it doesn't, they lose Bran and the North(the last line of defence between the dead and rest of Westeros).

But let's say it happened exactly as you say, they "outsmarted" the Night King by the way of an ambush using Arya and Bran, would that really make for a more satisfying conclusion to the Night Walker arc than what we got?

*I think there's still a lot we don't know about Bran's power/purpose, how much of the future can he really see? IIRC it was his idea to lure the Night King to the woods so we can assume he knew how it was going to play out, and why did he send Theon to his death? To give Arya an extra minute to get there? It seems to me like he's been trying to maintain some degree of neutrality, maybe he's some kind of overseer of time whose job is to make sure everything happens as he saw in his visions? I hope not, that would be such a cliche. Maybe he's just a friggin' tease who doesn't know as much as we think he does.

[Ivan0716]

I don't know, I think a lot of people (at least ones I know who watch the show in RL) are certain Tyrion and Daenerys are safe for instance. I'm pretty sure they're going to get their hearts broken on both counts.

I think for Daenerys it's the throne or the tomb, I'm betting on the latter as well. I don't even know who I WANT on the throne anymore, both Daenerys and Jon have proved themselves to be terrible rulers/leaders, and I feel like they put Cercei on it too early for her to still remain on it by the end.

[monty]

I don't even know who I WANT on the throne anymore

I vote for this lovely couple:

[Ivan0716]

Fuck yeah! Kill whoever needs to be killed, just make it happen.

[mightysparks]

They made a poll on Reddit some weeks ago about who we wanted on the throne and I voted for nobody. Daenerys somehow had the most votes (still don’t know how anyone can like that cow), but I think if I like anyone on the throne it’s Cersei, though she’s a conniving bitch. She just knows how to get things done. She might be enemy to all my favourite characters but I would be much happier with that kind of villain ‘winning’ than a snotty little brat like dragon girl.

[Lilarcor]

Ugh, hate to see so much effort go into such a stupid episode. I'm agreeing a lot with flaiky, the show used to be smarter in battles and for some elements there are no excuses here. If you're meeting an unknown enemy in a short time, you should stick to tactics that at least make sense within the logics of the show. The Dothraki cavalry obviously isn't a frontline unit, they have always been shown as flanking units and that's were you get to use their benefits of swift movement. Charging them into the unknown dark is reckless. They put siege weapons behind the Dothraki, and in front of the trench, what the fuck is that, it doesn't make any sense! Why is the trench so close to the fort??

If the show made a point of the battle plans being dumb, that the chain of command with Daenerys/Jon/+++ isn't working AND that that led to lots of sacrifice of important characters, it would have been a lot more interesting to watch even if they won against the Night King. But giving characters so much plot armor that they survive tremendously stupid things like this (how many times were all these characters stabbed??) just removes all tension in these otherwise aesthetically pleasing moments. Previous battles, that took obvious inspiration from the battle of Cannae and Thermopylae, had more going for them in this regard, stupid actions had consequences there. In this episode, surviving and dying is written to satisfy later plots, not for the moments they are in the present. This is just bad storytelling.

Having so many survivors means so fragmented time with each going forward, I don't think they will be able to pull of this to a satifying conclusion. PLEASE make the final battle smarter at least.

[funkybusiness]

"EVEN IF THE TRUTH DESTROYS US!?!"



also,
Dany: don't tell Sansa, for real, she ain't trustworthy
Jon: Okay yeah totally, brb I gotta go tell Sansa

also-also,
Tormund: what kind of person rides a fucking dragon? a madman or a king!
"hello this is Benioff and Weiss, your friendly neighborhood telegraph operators".


and I forgot to mention it last week, but that slow motion moment when Sansa and Tyrion are behind the crypt and she pulls out Arya's knife, was I the only one who thought that little nod between them was like a suicide pact and that Sansa was going to stab Tyrion then herself? and then that didn't happen at all, like, not even close.

[mightysparks]

The whole Brienne and Jaime thing was so highschool and cringey. As soon as they were playing that drinking game I knew he was gonna ask if she was a virgin. Of course Jaime is then like oh good she’s a virgin and she’s drunk so this is my chance. Bye rapey douchebag.

And Dany: I came to free this world of tyrants.

Lol deluded idiot. Oh and ‘I’ve never asked you for anything’ yea coz you demand it or you’ll burn people with dragons, bitch

Glad Missandei is dead because that subplot was the worst and needed to go.

[flaiky]

Of course Jaime is then like oh good she’s a virgin and she’s drunk so this is my chance. Bye rapey douchebag.

I'm pretty sure he is genuinely into Brienne (he wasn't embarrassed telling Tyrion, and was going to stay in Winterfell before he heard that Daenarys had been attacked), and is going south to try and kill Cersei. He didn't want Brienne to stop him and probably has legitimate fears about hurting her in the long run. But I felt for my girl Bri, that was the only time she's failed to hold it together.

--

If I pretend that the White Walker storyline and Long Night battle never happened (not only did all those characters survive, but they're not even injured beyond a scratch on the face? ) then I liked the episode. The character dynamics are really juicy, and I love how we're increasingly realising that Dany may be just as ruthless and blindly ambitious as her father. I'm foreseeing her death at the hands of one of our top good guys. Could it even be Jon? I'm on board for that. I don't know if the show is still into subverting expectations and tropes to that degree, but it would be a good ending if so.

--
Back to episode 3, have you guys seen this? It's brutal but hilarious.


Or a more succinct version of essentially the same thing (the second vid, I can't link it separately)

[mightysparks]

Of course Jaime is then like oh good she’s a virgin and she’s drunk so this is my chance. Bye rapey douchebag.

I'm pretty sure he is genuinely into Brienne (he wasn't embarrassed telling Tyrion, and was going to stay in Winterfell before he heard that Daenarys had been attacked), and is going south to try and kill Cersei. He didn't want Brienne to stop him and probably has legitimate fears about hurting her in the long run. But I felt for my girl Bri, that was the only time she's failed to hold it together.

Yea I was half joking, I know they’re genuinely into each other but just a bit triggery and a douchey moment to make his move.

[outdoorcats]

Even glancing at social media reaction to this season, I feel like I'm watching a completely different season than everyone else. I don't want to get bogged down in back and forth arguments over specific criticisms, because that's a waste of energy, but I'm always just surprised how I watch another episode of this season, think it's one of my new favorites, and go online expecting a lot of people to agree and I just encounter waves of people on Twitter all saying the show is trash now (but everyone I know who watches the show in RL loves this season). This was also how I felt about Westworld Season 2; I'm starting to wonder if rival networks are pouring a lot of money into downvoting bots and social-media influencing bots against HBO's biggest shows. Or maybe I just have weird and wacky taste, I don't know (granted, Westworld Season 2 was pretty out there, but so was Season 1?).

Anyway, last night's was another one of my favorites. Harington wasn't lying and it did indeed have a strong Shakespearean vibe to it. I'd place much higher betting odds on a Tyrion betrayal now. We're starting to see seeds of scenes from seasons past bearing fruit.

Such as this one:

Spoiler

and this one:

Spoiler

and this one:

Spoiler

"When my dragons are grown...we will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground."

And this one:

Spoiler

Is that a burnt and utterly destroyed throne room?

[flaiky]

Well yes, despite my major disappointment with certain things that I've made clear, I agree that calling the entire show trash is an overreaction. There is still a great deal to appreciate; it seems like those extreme complainers forget actually how far we've come with this show. GoT now gets an unprecedented level of scrutiny and the good qualities are almost taken for granted at this point. But when you focus on the big picture, specifically how brilliantly each individual character has been shaped throughout the show, it's still doing something special. Episodes 1, 2 + 4 have done enough to remind me of that. The more the series has been pushed into spectacle (largely by HBO, I suspect) the more the cracks have appeared and that is frustrating but...yeah, I haven't given up on it and I'm going to do my best to see the final two episodes as positively as possible.

They need to start using Bran properly though, and quick. His whole (heavily invested in) arc is the only one that's looking pointless right now.

[funkybusiness]

his line about his 120 year old chair design that he enjoys was the most he's said in like 3 seasons.

[mightysparks]

I’m still enjoying the show, despite it being a bit rushed. I’d read all the other books before their respective seasons and all that extra info helps fill in the gaps but the show has always brushed over a lot of things. It’s just now we don’t have the backup of finding that extra info.

[outdoorcats]

I do wonder why they kept Bran alive. It's hard to imagine he has any kind of role to play in the last two episodes.

[Carmel1379]

i don't watch it, but i enjoyed this summary:

[Lonewolf2003]

That was insightful

[Ivan0716]

LOL

[monty]

Here's the ending I'm rooting for: Far north of the Wall, a small cottage nestled by a brook.
Here Tormund & Brienne and their offspring (all with great bushy red beards)are living happily. Ghost is helping watch the kids.

[brokenface]

Definitely felt a bit of Come & See influence in how that one was shot, 2nd half.

All in all, pretty great blockbuster action spectacle, but plotwise, all feeling rather rushed to conclusion and that thread Carmel posted does indeed describe quite well how they seem to have approached the writing for the final 2 seasons. It's certainly cut some corners to get to a position where it can conclude things. But probably that's the only way to do it when you're trying to wrap up something which always benefited from its sprawl and ability to hop between the many characters & threads.

[outdoorcats]

Reminded me of reading John Hershey's account of the aftermath of Hiroshima as well (or non-fiction accounts of various historical bombings). Miguel Sapochnik did amazing work on this show. As did Ramin Djawadi.

Really want to hear mightysparks' take on this one.

Man, a lot of people HAAAAAATED that episode. I keep hearing people say it ruined 8 years of character development for Dany (it definitely didn't IMHO, but there's an interesting psychological phenomenon here of how when people perceive certain characters as ones they root for, they only selectively focus on certain information to fit the narrative of them they want). The only thing that bothered me about it was the somewhat anticlimactic end of the Lannister twins. I definitely hoped both of them would go out in a more dramatic fashion rather than the eerily muted way they shot their last moments. It's an artistic choice, I guess.

Strangely, more than anything for the next episode, more than who lives or who dies and who rules, I just want to find out if Dany's decision was an emotional one based on madness/rage, or a calculated decision realizing if she lets the city surrender Jon becomes king. It's dark but I kind of hope a little of the latter. But I also hope that she's not a moustache-twirling villain in the series finale. Martin's always had a perverse genius for finding the complexity in seemingly unforgivable characters; hopefully the show stays true to that.

[mightysparks]

I thought the episode was alright. I can't believe the people complaining about Dany's character development -- I don't know what show any of her supporters were watching, but she has been the villain ever since she got her dragons and became the spoilt bratty rich girl who screams when her daddy doesn't get her the car she wants, but instead of crying she just burns people with dragons. I've never understood why everyone in the show and the audience loved her so much, the show kind of seemed to idolize her for so long and it pissed me off but finally they’ve removed the mask. I thought her impulsive and selfish reaction made perfect sense and I think her reaction was an emotional one, but that probably also took into account Jon getting the throne because power is all she cares about. The main thing I've cared about since the start of the show is watching her die, and that's still what I'm looking forward to. And I want Jon to die now too. I really liked Jon at the beginning but man he has turned into an idiot. All of Dany's supporters are so stupid. And Tyrion wtf. He was just an interesting and complex character and has gone stupid too, the whole dobbing in Varys thing was dumb and out of character.

My biggest complaint was, like outdoorcats, the treatment of Cersei and Jaime. It kind of worked for Jaime, but not for Cersei as she just kind of went out with a whimper after all this build-up with her prophecy thing - technically her younger brother (both of them) killed her in a sense, but it felt cheap. I didn't like the Arya just riding off into the sunset thing either; at first I was happy The Hound got rid of her and stopped her fulfilling her revenge but then after the lame way Cersei met her end, I think I would've preferred Arya getting to her. I don't know where Arya has to go from there.

[outdoorcats]

The younger brother prophecy wasn't included in the show, which makes me think GRRM has a different ending for Cersei planned in the books.

I'm assuming Arya is going for Dany now. Not sure though.

I wonder how the moms who named their daughters Daenerys or Khaleesi are feeling lately.

[max-scl]

I loved the last episode! Best of this season so far for me. And don't know what to expect for the last one.

[mightysparks]

The younger brother prophecy wasn't included in the show, which makes me think GRRM has a different ending for Cersei planned in the books.

I'm assuming Arya is going for Dany now. Not sure though.

I wonder how the moms who named their daughters Daenerys or Khaleesi are feeling lately.

I thought that was part of the reason she was always suspicious about Tyrion. But maybe she only mentioned the thing about losing all her kids and I mixed up the rest with the books. Idk it's been a while

[Ivan0716]

but she has been the villain ever since she got her dragons and became the spoilt bratty rich girl who screams when her daddy doesn't get her the car she wants

I don't know, I feel like she really made her daddy proud. I loved it, it was oddly satisfying, and I agree with you regarding her character development, I didn't expect her to go full on murderous psycho bitch on us but I don't think it's that far-fetched at all given she way she's been handled over the past couple of season.

Pretty sure her decision was an emotional one based on what the creators said in the "Inside the Episode":


None of the deaths in this season had any weight to them, I keep forgetting characters(even Cercei) have died until people mention it.

[monty]

And still nobody here has mentioned Cleganebowl...

[flaiky]

I like the idea of Daenerys becoming a villain, and I don't mind the concept of her going full "mad queen". It's not out of the blue and it's an interesting twist for a major character. But I must say, watching it play out in this episode, it did not feel earned or right. It only made me long for the story to be properly paced and developed. What we have been given is too extreme, too rushed.

I was really disappointed with the Cersei-Jaime death. Incredibly disappointed.

Arya's storyline has not been utilised properly, to add to Bran's. Why was she even there in the end?

"Cleganebowl"? It felt like dumb fan service tbh. Almost as dumb as the dumb Euron fight, but no-one even wanted that one.

Yeah, uh, the optimistic mindset I had a few days ago has gone.





I'll wait for the final episode and see if this all sinks in better, but at the moment I feel like most of the core GoT threads have tied up poorly. It's incredibly sad.

[Lonewolf2003]

I agree with flaiky. The idea of Daenerys going full villain is interesting and, like so often said, not without precedent in the previous seasons. But it’s a prime example of how character development this season is rushed to get the character were they need to be for the plot instead of natural character progress. Especially the moment she goes mad makes no sense; she is victorious, looks at the red keep and just snaps? It would have made sense if she snapped if somehow the fight didn’t go her way and she suffered major (personal) losses again.

The Jaime-Cersei death was very inconsistent with Jaimes development the whole series long. I really thought he was going to kill Cersei, that would have made sense to me.

Cleganebowl was pure fanservice. But cool forgivable fanservice.

But all in all in the way the first the fighting and then the destruction on the ground was displayed, this was the best episode of the season.

[brokenface]

I agree with flaiky. The idea of Daenerys going full villain is interesting and, like so often said, not without precedent in the previous seasons. But it’s a prime example of how character development this season is rushed to get the character were they need to be for the plot instead of natural character progress. Especially the moment she goes mad makes no sense; she is victorious, looks at the red keep and just snaps? It would have made sense if she snapped if somehow the fight didn’t go her way and she suffered major (personal) losses again.

Basically I saw it as her seeing the one thing that had been driving her throughout was finally there for the taking and realising it was never going to be enough. Like, she'd gone through all that personal loss and imagines herself sitting in that tower by herself as queen - and what was it all for?

[outdoorcats]

@ flaiky - I think the point for Arya was to either A) show her trying to protect people and not just kill them which might be a pivotal turning point for her endgame, or B ) just giving her a really good reason to personally want to kill Dany.