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Game of Thrones

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Game of Thrones

#321

Post by outdoorcats » September 2nd, 2017, 12:16 am

I think the show and books have been existing in completely different parallel universes for some time now. That's often a very good thing, since from interviews it was implied the ingenious opening to "The Winds of Winter" episode and the destruction of the Sept of Baelor was dreamed up by Benioff and Weiss. It also means that virtually nothing from upcoming books is really being spoiled. I'm guessing Jon will be resurrected, Stannis will die in a similar fashion, Bran will have a similar journey, and Sansa will rescue Jon with the army of the Vale in a battle with Ramsey (and in the books that will be their first reunion)...but overall I think the showrunners are charting their own course, likely a completely different journey but arriving at a similar ending.

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#322

Post by brokenface » September 2nd, 2017, 12:37 pm

outdoorcats on Sep 1 2017, 03:55:31 PM wrote:I'm on the side that liked Littlefinger's death scene, overall...but like the above poster, slightly disappointed with some aspects of the show after episode four. Really just the one thing, and that's the show's sudden toothlessness. A few years ago in Season 5 this was the most ruthless show on television. The threat of that ruthlessness made episodes like "Battle of the Bastards" a year later as terrifying and nail biting as they were, and it was still working for episode 4 of this season, which left me breathing like I had just sprinted a couple of miles if I remember correctly.

But after the umpteenth "last minute rescue" scene things are starting to feel a little cheesy and not as suspenseful. Like how many times did the show build up a character's death this season only to back away? Yara in Ep. 2, Bronn in 4, Jaime (twice! in 4 and 7), Tormund and Beric twice (6 and 7), everyone else who went north of the wall in 6 (Jorah twice in one episode), Tyrion in 7, Sansa in Ep. 6, Arya in Ep. 7, Drogon the Dragon in Ep. 4...am I forgetting anyone? Not counting they were definitely trying to fake-foreshadow a Grey Worm death with his sex scene. Don't they need to thin the herd a little?

It might seem like a weird complaint to say, "I want this show to hurt me more," but there you go. :shrug: But it ties into the overall problem of the show not being as surprising as it was in seasons past. To be fair, there were lots of little surprises this season, but no big ones.

With 6 (possibly feature-length) episodes to go, I'm still hoping for another Red Wedding...sick bastard that I am.
Indeed. For all its ruthlessness, by this point it certainly feels like its main core of characters who've been in it since the start are going to be there till the end (i.e. Jon/Arya/Sansa, Cersei/Jaime/Tyrion and Daenerys) so it's hard to believe they're in real danger. Some of them may die right at the end, but can't see any of them going before.

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#323

Post by Cynical Cinephile » September 2nd, 2017, 2:01 pm

I have to agree with you outdoorcats, but after all this time, it's a lose-lose situation. It wouldn't make sense to kill of characters just for the sake of shock. Looking back at all those horrible deaths in prior seasons, one can see how each of them lead to the moment where we're at now. Now that it's coming closer to the end, more deaths like that would only serve one purpose, to shock the audience, and that just feels cheap. On the flip side, you're still correct, the show has lost some of its edge and certainly isn't as suspenseful as it used to be. I knew Jon Snow would survive this season all along (same with other big players). However, I have no idea what the next season holds; the fact that we're coming to an end means that even protagonists are vulnerable again.

Btw, I'm not too sure Tormund and Beric survived the end of this season, but if I had to bet, I'd say they did.
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#324

Post by outdoorcats » September 9th, 2017, 5:44 pm

Tormund and Beric definitely survived. If you watch the scene carefully, you see the wall collapsing behind them as they run and then stop collapsing right behind their feet (again, a little too "Indiana Jones" for this show, no?) right before it cuts.

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#325

Post by funkybusiness » April 15th, 2019, 5:06 am

my boy Dolorous Edd stealing the show

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#326

Post by outdoorcats » April 15th, 2019, 11:33 pm

I actually thought Bran was the surprise MVP. "I'm waiting for an old friend." Old friend turns out to be
SpoilerShow
Jaime
. LOL.

Also props to the acting chops of John Bradley, who doesn't get credit often enough.

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#327

Post by funkybusiness » April 16th, 2019, 12:22 am

the dialogue was, for the most part, pretty atrocious, sub-soap opera level bullshit, like they're writing exclusively for meme captions or something, so the best acting was done when they weren't speaking, such as Sam, Theon, Jorah chillin' in the background, or Cersei once Euron left the room for like 2 seconds. Bran is about the only one capable of spinning his shit lines into gold. Tyrion/Varys was atrocious and Davos was there with them, but being not terrible? It was like they stitched two different scenes together, that's how wildly different the levels of acting were.

and am I the only one who is bewildered when all these characters are saying Sansa is the smartest one in the room? because her performance over the course of the show has been so bad, easily the worst of anyone, that I can't believe them when they say that. the gap is just too large between what the writers are trying to achieve with the character and what the actor is capable of achieving for there to be any cohesion.

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#328

Post by ChrisReynolds » April 16th, 2019, 1:01 am

funkybusiness wrote:
April 16th, 2019, 12:22 am
and am I the only one who is bewildered when all these characters are saying Sansa is the smartest one in the room? because her performance over the course of the show has been so bad, easily the worst of anyone, that I can't believe them when they say that. the gap is just too large between what the writers are trying to achieve with the character and what the actor is capable of achieving for there to be any cohesion.
I think Sophie Turner is one of the weakest actors of any of the main characters, but it would be nice if the show could at least give us an example of her being smart. Her not falling for Littlefinger's dumb plan to make her think Arya was plotting against her doesn't count. This is another case where the show's deviation and merging of characters has hurt character arcs. Book!Sansa will presumably reach the point of becoming a brilliant player of the Game of Thrones after being personally tutored by Littlefinger. Show!Sansa reaches that point by being abused by Ramsay Bolton.

Oh well, episode was mediocre by Game of Thrones standards, but these opening episodes always are, because they're about reacquainting the audience with the characters and moving everybody into their starting position for this season. I did like some of the interesting reunions and meetings. The best of these was Dany meeting Samwell. No surprise to see that her intolerant and imperious manner is making her few friends in The North. And Jon is back to his old ways of turning his closest allies against him by taking unilateral decisions and making weak speeches about how it was the right thing to do afterwards.

Even the writing has got slapdash ever since they were no longer able to pull things out of the book, there's still the pleasure of seeing fantasy characters having to grapple with realistic political and logistical ramifications of their actions. Hopefully the remaining five episodes will be heavy on the action, as that's the area where the show now truly shines.

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#329

Post by outdoorcats » April 16th, 2019, 1:19 am

funkybusiness wrote:
April 16th, 2019, 12:22 am
the dialogue was, for the most part, pretty atrocious, sub-soap opera level bullshit, like they're writing exclusively for meme captions or something, so the best acting was done when they weren't speaking, such as Sam, Theon, Jorah chillin' in the background, or Cersei once Euron left the room for like 2 seconds. Bran is about the only one capable of spinning his shit lines into gold. Tyrion/Varys was atrocious and Davos was there with them, but being not terrible? It was like they stitched two different scenes together, that's how wildly different the levels of acting were.

and am I the only one who is bewildered when all these characters are saying Sansa is the smartest one in the room? because her performance over the course of the show has been so bad, easily the worst of anyone, that I can't believe them when they say that. the gap is just too large between what the writers are trying to achieve with the character and what the actor is capable of achieving for there to be any cohesion.
Well that was uh, an extremely negative reaction. :shrug: What are we comparing the dialogue to here, Shakespeare? The prose of Cormac McCarthy? What's an example of a show with great writing?

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#330

Post by funkybusiness » April 16th, 2019, 2:38 am

I'm not saying I hated it, just that some elements of it were poor. the show, since becoming a worldwide phenomenon and not being able to base itself entirely off the books, has shifted dramatically towards being a broader-appealing, visually based spectacle, and from that perspective, it's still one of the best shows on television.

I'm with ya Chris on all of that.

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#331

Post by mightysparks » April 16th, 2019, 2:54 am

I’m in the middle of season 7 now, and I don’t really care how the show ends or who ends up on the throne as long as that arrogant hypocritical little brat Daenerys dies a painful death. She has been the weakest character and actor in the show, and the books, since the beginning and has never improved. She is basically a poorly written and acted Joffrey but with dragons and some patience. I don’t buy the love and respect anyone has for her because she is just so awful and stupid. The way she is described in the books makes it clear that she is Martin’s dream girl and she is a pointless and boring Mary Sue that needs to go away. Every other character has grown and is interesting in some way or has something to offer no matter how unlikable they are but all she has are dragons. Ugh.
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#332

Post by funkybusiness » April 16th, 2019, 3:05 am

she's the obligatory "Golden Age of Television" anti-hero, but she's a pertty girl so they've fooled the audience into thinking she's a good guy and go ahead and name your children after her. I think her character (not her performance) is a little more nuanced than what you imply, mighty, like what Chris was talking about earlier re: political implications, but she's obviously a bad dude, esp. regarding Jon Snow's speech at the end of last night's episode, it seems pretty clear that the writers will attempt (but maybe not follow through with...) a more democratic, "no one gets the throne"-type ending. which definitely doesn't cohere with the books, but, yeah, tv dun give a fuck.

also, there's loads of speculation about Arya's blueprint, but I have no idea considering her drawing didn't give much to work with re: scale. was it a small dart thing or a big stick/spear thing? who she gonna kill with it? TNK, zombie dragon or Jaime? I like the idea (in theory but not in practice) of her faceless man-ing her way into some climatic scene (the one I've seen most frequently is that she disguises herself as a white walker but... they'd know, right? they're magical creatures, I think they'd notice). GRRM loves re-using ideas over and over again, cyclical recurring elements, so maybe the show would do it considering she's done it before, the Freys and all that.

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#333

Post by Carmel1379 » April 17th, 2019, 10:31 pm

Guys, can you explain this meme to me (specifically the interaction in the bottom half (though I can already guess what happens...))

Image


Please, it's important.


(for the record I've seen the first 2 GoT seasons and know Bran is now some sort of psychic superman in a wheelchair)
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whom shall we find
Sufficient? who shall tempt with wand’ring feet
The dark unbottom’d infinite Abyss,
And through the palpable obscure find out
His uncouth way, or spread his aerie flight,
Upborn with indefatigable wings,
Over the vast abrupt, ere he arrive
The happy Ile?

Nur dein Auge – ungeheuer / Blickt michs an, Unendlichkeit!
Close the world. ʇxǝu ǝɥʇ uǝdO.
t o B e c o n t i n u e d

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#334

Post by flaiky » April 17th, 2019, 10:43 pm

It's the last moment of the episode: Jaime shitting a brick as Bran stares him out ominously. Bran spent half the episode waiting for him, knowing he was coming.

The meme gets a thumbs-up :thumbsup:
Last edited by flaiky on April 17th, 2019, 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#335

Post by Carmel1379 » April 17th, 2019, 10:49 pm

Thanks. The fact no one yet exactly knows what will happen kinda makes me like this meme even more.
IMDb, letterboxd, tumblr
Image
whom shall we find
Sufficient? who shall tempt with wand’ring feet
The dark unbottom’d infinite Abyss,
And through the palpable obscure find out
His uncouth way, or spread his aerie flight,
Upborn with indefatigable wings,
Over the vast abrupt, ere he arrive
The happy Ile?

Nur dein Auge – ungeheuer / Blickt michs an, Unendlichkeit!
Close the world. ʇxǝu ǝɥʇ uǝdO.
t o B e c o n t i n u e d

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#336

Post by Ivan0716 » April 18th, 2019, 5:49 am

mightysparks wrote:
April 16th, 2019, 2:54 am
The way she is described in the books makes it clear that she is Martin’s dream girl and she is a pointless and boring Mary Sue that needs to go away. Every other character has grown and is interesting in some way or has something to offer no matter how unlikable they are but all she has are dragons. Ugh.
She doesn't come across as a Mary Sue to me, she has some pretty obvious flaws and is often criticised by other characters. Plus, she's been in full entitled-bitch-mode since last season. I can't see her sitting on the throne at the end with the way they're handling her.

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#337

Post by mightysparks » April 18th, 2019, 6:00 am

Ivan0716 wrote:
April 18th, 2019, 5:49 am
mightysparks wrote:
April 16th, 2019, 2:54 am
The way she is described in the books makes it clear that she is Martin’s dream girl and she is a pointless and boring Mary Sue that needs to go away. Every other character has grown and is interesting in some way or has something to offer no matter how unlikable they are but all she has are dragons. Ugh.
She doesn't come across as a Mary Sue to me, she has some pretty obvious flaws and is often criticised by other characters. Plus, she's been in full entitled-bitch-mode since last season. I can't see her sitting on the throne at the end with the way they're handling her.
Every character comments about how 'beautiful' and 'amazing' she is constantly, even when they don't seem to like her and pretty much every dude is in love with her for no good reason. Her 'humility' and 'smart' decisions are always being praised, her followers act like she's the new Christ. She's been an entitled bitch since her first appearance so no growth or change there lol. I feel like she is also Mary Sue like because every time she wants something she just pulls out her dragons and no-one stands a chance so she can overpower everyone purely out of luck. She is obviously flawed because she's horrible, but most characters only seem to dislike her because she's an enemy player (or just instantly bow to her, like Jon Snow who's a weak little idiot now).
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#338

Post by outdoorcats » April 22nd, 2019, 3:41 am

I was a really big fan of this episode (#2, which was apparently titled "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms" ... the whole no-episode-title-until-after-it-airs is admittedly intriguing, but is there a point?). I think the past two episodes have been doing a good job correcting one of the two main issues of Season 7, which was rushing past the meaty character interactions to get to the big plot points, which resulted in some of the weirdness last season like Tyrion only seeming slightly annoyed at his niece's murderer. Now that it's becoming clear that the final season will seemingly be centered around two big set-pieces (a Winterfell battle and some kind of battle with Cersei I'm guessing?) it was important to re-invest stakes in these characters and remind us why we don't want any of them to die. And damn, I could feel the tension in the pit of my stomach throughout this episode. Kudos to David Nutter.

That knighting scene (and including all the interactions in front of the fireplace preceding it) is also maybe my favorite dialogue-based scene since maybe season 3 or 4. Maybe I'm biased as a Brienne fan though. Great to see her re-emerge as a key player since she's been kind of an afterthought for a few seasons now.

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#339

Post by funkybusiness » April 22nd, 2019, 7:05 am

any knight can make a knight
you pullin' that outta yer butt, Jaime!

but no, I also quite liked that scene. Big Dick Podrick's song was one of those moments where you go "oh shit, book readers are gonna flip and everybody else is gonna shrug". in before Daniel Portman stars in whatever ripoff/sequel they come up with to that Danny Boyle film aka which 60s/70s band can we ruin and turn into a terrible movie next after Queen and the Beatles.

Jorah's "to guard the realms of men" when he accepted Sam's sword was the best line in like four seasons, and they didn't make a fuss over it. execution was perfect on that, all around.


but in a hundred years the only thing anyone will ever remember about Game of Thrones will be SHE SUCKLED ME AT HER TEAT. excellent adaptation that outshines the original book material, which does happen every once in a while.

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#340

Post by outdoorcats » April 22nd, 2019, 1:04 pm

The episode title and the fact that it referred to Brienne was a nice Dunk & Egg connection too, considering Brienne is supposed to be descended from Dunk. Of course Bryan Cogman wrote this episode.

Admittedly I had forgotten that song was from the books until I googled it afterwards. Daniel Portman + Djawadi's version >>> Florence and the Machine's, btw, though her version isn't bad.

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#341

Post by Ivan0716 » April 22nd, 2019, 1:27 pm

My predictions on who will perish in the upcoming Battle of Winterfell:
SpoilerShow
Jorah
Theon
Davos
Brienne
that other Night's Watch dude whose name continues to elude me
that annoying little northern bitch

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#342

Post by outdoorcats » April 22nd, 2019, 2:36 pm

I'm going to wildly guess (I really have no idea, these are hail marys):
SpoilerShow
Bran (some sort of strategic sacrifice which he's already planning), Grey Worm, Gendry, Tormund, Podrick, Beric, Lyanna Mormont, Gilly + Baby Sam, Dolorous Edd, Lord Royce, one more dragon--possibly Rhaegal, and the scared ginger dude with the bow
.

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#343

Post by ChrisReynolds » April 22nd, 2019, 3:21 pm

My predictions on deaths and battle outcomes (before looking at anyone else's)
SpoilerShow
Grey Worm
Missandei
Podrick Payne
Tormund Giantsbane
Lyanna Mormont
Edd
Jorah Mormont
Beric Dondarrion
Theon Greyjoy
One of the dragons (probably Rhaegal)

I'm predicting the Night King to win and the remaining characters to retreat to the Iron Islands.

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#344

Post by ChrisReynolds » April 22nd, 2019, 3:34 pm

One more prediction
SpoilerShow
Bran wargs into a dragon, probably Drogon, and airlifts some characters to safety. I feel this needs to happen to fulfil the "you will fly" prophecy about him.
With regards to the episode. I liked it overall, and there were a series of strong scenes -- Jaime's trial, Sam giving Jorah heartsbane, Jon revealing his heritage to Dany, Tormund's origin story, Podrick's song and Jaime knighting Brienne -- but there were also a lot of scenes that were checking in with characters. I feel that this week's and last week's episode both essentially filled the same function of being a prelude to the big battle so there's a slight feeling of the show spinning its wheels.

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#345

Post by Lilarcor » April 22nd, 2019, 4:27 pm

SpoilerShow
Brienne is the only one that feels absolutely certain to me based on how episode 2 turned out.

Hoping the Night King wins for two reasons:
1) Improves the stakes of the show
2) I can barely see what is going on sometimes in the night scenes in Winterfell

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#346

Post by mightysparks » April 22nd, 2019, 11:43 pm

Hadn’t thought about who might die and now I feel kind of sad about it lol
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#347

Post by flaiky » April 23rd, 2019, 10:39 pm

Yeah I really liked the recent episode too, I was completely caught in the tension and actually felt pretty damn emotional about the characters. Ugh, the impending doom and finality is working on me.

I'll join the cheery death prediction game:
SpoilerShow
Brienne (definitely) :(
Grey Worm (definitely)
Theon
Jorah
Sam :(
The Hound
Lyanna
Tormund

A few big names will depart but the core characters don't seem to be leaving yet. I'd love them to shock us though, masochistic as that is. If anyone, I guess it will be Jaime but that seems too obvious...
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#348

Post by funkybusiness » April 23rd, 2019, 10:45 pm

I know there's a whole buncha shit with Cersei and Bronn as a hitman left, but no one else thinks it a possibility that Jaime will die and Brienne will be the next head of the Knights clique?

I won't be predicting anything for the death pool. I don't think there's a 100% chance of anyone dying for sure.


except Grey Worm. he so dead.

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#349

Post by Lilarcor » April 24th, 2019, 12:34 am

funkybusiness wrote:
April 23rd, 2019, 10:45 pm
but no one else thinks it a possibility that Jaime will die and Brienne will be the next head of the Knights clique?
If you are right, my wild guess is that
SpoilerShow
Jaime will turn undead and Brienne will have to save the day by killing him with Oathkeeper.

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#350

Post by outdoorcats » April 29th, 2019, 4:37 am

Anyone's hands stopped shaking yet?

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#351

Post by funkybusiness » April 29th, 2019, 4:51 am

I had to stop it I've like 20 minutes left I was gonna throw up

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#352

Post by mightysparks » April 29th, 2019, 6:46 am

SpoilerShow
Arya is such a boss. I didn’t know how this whole thing was gonna end and I thought the war with the dead was gonna take a few more eps, but if anyone deserves that win it was her. Looking forward to the clean up next week though.
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#353

Post by ChrisReynolds » April 29th, 2019, 3:00 pm

It was a very good episode for entertaining action, but disappointing in some ways.
SpoilerShow
I'm assuming this is the final climax and resolution of the Night King storyline, and the remaining three episodes will be dedicated to resolving the Iron Throne storyline.

What I've loved about Game of Thrones is its commitment to questioning the tropes and traditions of epic fantasy, but this episode was about as traditional as it's possible to get. A final battle between good guys and bad guys, where there are a cast of hero good guys who play out their redemptive or triumphal arcs.

None of the characters who died were surprises, it was all the ones who were telegraphed (apart from Melisandre, and that was because she turned up out of nowhere. As soon as I realised Carice van Houten was in the episode, it was clear that she was being brought back to kill her off.

Night King ended up just being a generic fantasy villain. No reason for his actions other than he was created to kill humans, and he represents a force evil that can be defeated by force of arms with no repercussions, which runs opposite to the show's usual commitment to a representation of good and evil that is blurred and messy.

Even with all those problems, there were great moments:
  • Melisandre returning to give magical assistance and walk out in the snow to die after achieving her purpose of defeating the forces of darkness.
  • All the Dothraki being slaughtered in the night.
  • Lyanna Mormont vs. the zombie giant (even though it was a bit silly)
  • Jon running at the Night King to duel him only for the Night King to raise another army of dead and walk off.
  • The Night King slow-motion advancing on Bran and then getting stabbed by a pouncing Arya, although I think even this would have been more effective if Arya had died in the process. It would have given us a shock A-list character death that wasn't predicted, a great sacrifice to achieve the victory, and the feeling of dashed hope and reversal would have been even greater if Arya had been run through by the Night King before dropping and catching the dagger.

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#354

Post by Ivan0716 » April 29th, 2019, 3:27 pm

Ivan0716 wrote:
April 22nd, 2019, 1:27 pm
My predictions on who will perish in the upcoming Battle of Winterfell:
SpoilerShow
Jorah
Theon
Davos
Brienne
that other Night's Watch dude whose name continues to elude me
that annoying little northern bitch
SpoilerShow

4/6 :lol: RIP Melisandre, Beric and all the beautiful Dothraki men too.

Jorah, Theon and Edd went out exactly the way you expected them to, Lyanna was a champ, I'm surprised Wight Lyanna didn't score a big kill though. Where the hell was Davos during the whole battle? Has the Davos lives meme gotten to the point where viewers just know he'd live through anything so they don't even need to show us how he did it? :lol:

Happy for Grey Worm, everyone was ready to write him off. Both dragons survived too, fucking RIP Cercei and the Jon vs Dani dragon duel dream lives on. I was worried for Sansa for a moment, glad nothing happened to her as I'm still hoping for that fist fight and/or sex scene between Dani and her.

That said, I'm surprised the body count wasn't higher, especially given what they were up against, I guess they want to give all the named characters proper goodbyes.

As for the battle, I know it was do or die but it's still kind of disappointing that it ended that way after 8 seasons of build up, though at the same time I didn't care much for the Nightwalker arc so I'm glad we have 3 whole episodes left on the fight for the throne.

Obviously, this needs to be said: holy shit Arya. :poshclap:

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ChrisReynolds
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#355

Post by ChrisReynolds » April 29th, 2019, 6:07 pm

SpoilerShow
Robett Glover last season: There will be more fights to come; House Glover will stand behind House Stark as we have for a thousand years, and I will stand behind Jon Snow, the King in the North!

Robett Glover should be executed for his second weaselling out of a big battle, especially since the loss of this one would inevitably have resulted in the destruction of his house anyway. Tim McInnery does cowardly characters well, so I look forward to watching him pleading for his life.

I also don't see how Cersei is going to pose much threat for the last three episodes. She has pirates and mercenaries (neither of whom are known for their steadfastness in battle), plus one large zombie. Meanwhile Dany and Jon's forces, still have two dragons (admittedly in injured condition). Aegon I conquered the seven kingdoms with three, so this shouldn't even be much of a fight.

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#356

Post by flaiky » April 29th, 2019, 9:33 pm

I was thoroughly gripped throughout the episode, of course (while desperately trying to make out what was happening half the time), but by the end I was disappointed. I couldn't believe how safe they played it or how minimal the consequences were.

...Now I've read this dead-on review, and I'm not just disappointed, I'm pissed off.
Core paragraphsShow
"Where do I even start? I guess with the fact that it seems like Game of Thrones, the show, has just missed the point of the entire series: that the squabbles between the great houses of Westeros are nothing compared with the unstoppable force of nature slowly bearing down on them from the wintery north. Game of Thrones was never supposed to actually be about the battle for the throne--it's supposed to be about the characters coming together to realize what was really important. The quintessential human fallacy, according to the brain of George R.R. Martin, is believing with absolute certainty that your personal battles are the most important fights that exist. It's a failure of perspective."

--

"There's no catharsis or payoff in anything that happened in "The Long Night." Yes, it was cool to see Jon and Dany tearing through the sky on their dragons laying waste to the army of the dead with massive gouts of flame. But this episode felt weirdly self-contained, like everything that's happened leading up to it didn't matter. Every fan theory I've seen about the battle with the dead--whether it's a theory from the books 20 years ago or from Reddit last week--is immeasurably more interesting than what actually happened.

One of my favorites until now was that the Night King wouldn't actually show up at this battle--that the attack on Winterfell was a feint, and he was flying to King's Landing to roast Cersei on her throne. There was a ton of evidence for it, but it still would have been a shock. And even better, it would have fit that ultimate series theme--that the fight for the throne was a petty squabble, and the people who failed to see the big picture (i.e. Cersei) would pay a price for it. Instead, the Night King took the bait at Winterfell and died like an idiot. He took his entire race with him, and we never learned anything about them besides "White Walkers=bad."

--

"Even within the confines of this episode's story--Night King is just a dumb Big Bad Guy after all, he comes to Winterfell, he gets killed--there are endless more rewarding ways it could have gone down. Remember when Dany magically survived Khal Drogo's funeral pyre in Season 1? Now imagine Jon hadn't told Dany about his true identity last season, and instead she had realized there was more to him than she thought when he stepped into her dragonfire, unharmed, and stabbed the Night King in the back. Or it's Arya--but instead of nonsensically jumping onto the Night King's back, she employs her Faceless Men magic to pose as Bran. Bran stabs the Night King, removes his face, bam, it's Arya.

That's payoff. This was boring."

--

"With three episodes left, Game of Thrones has pulled one of its final twists: It subverted all our expectations in the worst ways possible. We expected some real, impactful main character deaths in this episode, and it turned out the stakes weren't nearly as high as we thought. We expected some payoff for things Game of Thrones has spent seven seasons setting up, and the reality is much of it was simply pointless. And worst of all, we expected the culmination of Game of Thrones' most important storyline--the literal battle between life and death--to matter."
Seasons 1-6 consisted of brilliantly complex, intricate, brave storytelling and I really trusted that it would come to a suitably satisfying conclusion, even if last season was a bit wobbly. How the hell did they get it so wrong?

:(

Edit - Another alternative way of resolving the plot, from the comments section, that sounds much more like the smart GoT of old:
SpoilerShow
For example: the army did absolutely nothing but die and swell the Night King's ranks; their biggest mistake was even fighting a pitched battle in the first place, since they knew he and his generals have the ability to raise dead people. Guerilla style skirmish attacks and assassination attempts on the White Walker leadership, while always attempting to evade pitched combat, is the only reasonable strategy.

They literally could have sent everyone south to fight Cersei and just left Theon's force, Bran, and Arya (waiting in ambush) in the Godswood and achieved the same victory.
This would have kept the two main conflicts going until the end of the show. Much better. :angry:
Last edited by flaiky on April 29th, 2019, 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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funkybusiness
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#357

Post by funkybusiness » April 29th, 2019, 9:42 pm

funkybusiness wrote:
April 29th, 2019, 4:51 am
I had to stop it I've like 20 minutes left I was gonna throw up
nevermind I was just sick.

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#358

Post by outdoorcats » April 29th, 2019, 10:41 pm

I think you're all jumping the gun on judging the show overall without seeing the final 3 (feature length) episodes. Especially regarding
SpoilerShow
A-list deaths
. They're coming. Maybe I'm wrong though, we'll see.

@ Chris
SpoilerShow
couldn't you just as well say the more typical fantasy trope is saving the battle against an ancient evil for last? As surprised as I am, I think I like the left-field twist of Cersei being the big bad (though it depends how it plays out), and aside from 2 dragons (one seemed badly wounded?) things are going according to plan for her to decimate everybody. Dragons or no, Daenerys lost her entire army - unsullied, dothraki, all gone. As well as most of the northerners and wildlings. It feels very true to the focus of the show, which is war, politics and human nature.
@flaiky
SpoilerShow
If Arya posed as Bran she'd have to kill him and skin him first lol. Pretty dark even for Arya.

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MATT: That's the guy I was telling you about.

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#359

Post by Ivan0716 » April 29th, 2019, 10:56 pm

flaiky wrote:
April 29th, 2019, 9:33 pm
I was thoroughly gripped throughout the episode, of course (while desperately trying to make out what was happening half the time), but by the end I was disappointed. I couldn't believe how safe they played it or how minimal the consequences were.

...Now I've read this dead-on review, and I'm not just disappointed, I'm pissed off.
Core paragraphsShow
"Where do I even start? I guess with the fact that it seems like Game of Thrones, the show, has just missed the point of the entire series: that the squabbles between the great houses of Westeros are nothing compared with the unstoppable force of nature slowly bearing down on them from the wintery north. Game of Thrones was never supposed to actually be about the battle for the throne--it's supposed to be about the characters coming together to realize what was really important. The quintessential human fallacy, according to the brain of George R.R. Martin, is believing with absolute certainty that your personal battles are the most important fights that exist. It's a failure of perspective."

--

"There's no catharsis or payoff in anything that happened in "The Long Night." Yes, it was cool to see Jon and Dany tearing through the sky on their dragons laying waste to the army of the dead with massive gouts of flame. But this episode felt weirdly self-contained, like everything that's happened leading up to it didn't matter. Every fan theory I've seen about the battle with the dead--whether it's a theory from the books 20 years ago or from Reddit last week--is immeasurably more interesting than what actually happened.

One of my favorites until now was that the Night King wouldn't actually show up at this battle--that the attack on Winterfell was a feint, and he was flying to King's Landing to roast Cersei on her throne. There was a ton of evidence for it, but it still would have been a shock. And even better, it would have fit that ultimate series theme--that the fight for the throne was a petty squabble, and the people who failed to see the big picture (i.e. Cersei) would pay a price for it. Instead, the Night King took the bait at Winterfell and died like an idiot. He took his entire race with him, and we never learned anything about them besides "White Walkers=bad."

--

"Even within the confines of this episode's story--Night King is just a dumb Big Bad Guy after all, he comes to Winterfell, he gets killed--there are endless more rewarding ways it could have gone down. Remember when Dany magically survived Khal Drogo's funeral pyre in Season 1? Now imagine Jon hadn't told Dany about his true identity last season, and instead she had realized there was more to him than she thought when he stepped into her dragonfire, unharmed, and stabbed the Night King in the back. Or it's Arya--but instead of nonsensically jumping onto the Night King's back, she employs her Faceless Men magic to pose as Bran. Bran stabs the Night King, removes his face, bam, it's Arya.

That's payoff. This was boring."

--

"With three episodes left, Game of Thrones has pulled one of its final twists: It subverted all our expectations in the worst ways possible. We expected some real, impactful main character deaths in this episode, and it turned out the stakes weren't nearly as high as we thought. We expected some payoff for things Game of Thrones has spent seven seasons setting up, and the reality is much of it was simply pointless. And worst of all, we expected the culmination of Game of Thrones' most important storyline--the literal battle between life and death--to matter."
Seasons 1-6 consisted of brilliantly complex, intricate, brave storytelling and I really trusted that it would come to a suitably satisfying conclusion, even if last season was a bit wobbly. How the hell did they get it so wrong?

:(

Edit - Another alternative way of resolving the plot, from the comments section, that sounds much more like the smart GoT of old:
SpoilerShow
For example: the army did absolutely nothing but die and swell the Night King's ranks; their biggest mistake was even fighting a pitched battle in the first place, since they knew he and his generals have the ability to raise dead people. Guerilla style skirmish attacks and assassination attempts on the White Walker leadership, while always attempting to evade pitched combat, is the only reasonable strategy.

They literally could have sent everyone south to fight Cersei and just left Theon's force, Bran, and Arya (waiting in ambush) in the Godswood and achieved the same victory.
This would have kept the two main conflicts going until the end of the show. Much better. :angry:
Ugh...this is why I never read fan theories.
SpoilerShow
Admittedly I would have loved to see the Night King march down King's Landing and tear Cercei off her throne, but even if we ignore the fact that he wants Bran, it makes no sense for him to have to have to stage a feint on Winterfell when he(and everyone else) believes they can just level it to the ground.

"They literally could have sent everyone south to fight Cersei and just left Theon's force, Bran, and Arya (waiting in ambush) in the Godswood and achieved the same victory." is just hindsight speaking. They didn't even have a plan for dealing with the Night King after drawing him to the woods, no one in-universe planned for Arya to be there and for her to kill the Night King, except apparently the ones with foresight.

To be fair, this episode(and the finale to the White Walker arc) couldn't have been anything other than a huge disappointment, once they got 90% of the surviving cast to Winterfell there was only two possible outcomes: the White Walkers get wiped out, or they kill (almost)everyone, and those that survived would be too depleted to play any further roles in the storyline(the battle for the throne), and I would argue that's even more anti-climatic.

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#360

Post by Ivan0716 » April 29th, 2019, 11:08 pm

outdoorcats wrote:
April 29th, 2019, 10:41 pm
I think you're all jumping the gun on judging the show overall without seeing the final 3 (feature length) episodes. Especially regarding
SpoilerShow
A-list deaths
. They're coming. Maybe I'm wrong though, we'll see.
SpoilerShow
Oh, I'm sure they're coming. I just expected the death count to be higher in this "battle to save the world" :pinch: . Especially considering how they spent the first two episodes finally giving us some closure to certain character arcs. I think there are a few more characters they could have killed off that (IMO)don't really have much left to offer to the story anymore, like Davos, Brienne and Sam(how the fuck did he get out of this completely unscathed???? They were literally piling on top of him, and he's not exactly a slippery target).

EDIT: Actually now that I think about it I'm glad Sam survived, maybe soon his list of titles will rival Daenerys': Samwell Tarly - Lover of Ladies, Slayer of White Walkers, Dodger of Swords...

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