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Westworld

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Westworld

#41

Post by mightysparks » June 15th, 2018, 7:48 am

I thought it was ok, but didn't really stand out that much to me. Kind of felt out of place to me, like it doesn't really fit with the rest of what's been happening and it felt like the wrong time to have it.
Spoiler: click to toggleShow
Also, though it made sense since he hadn't died in like 10 years, his awakening takes place over one episode. Whereas with Maeve and Dolores, we watched them waking up over the course of 30 years, and that fragmentation and repetition in the narrative made it effective. I guess I almost felt like he hadn't suffered enough to deserve my empathy.
Still an interesting character and story, but surprised at the intense reception here. After we watched it, my boyfriend was just like 'do you think Westworld will keep getting worse?' lol.
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#42

Post by Cynical Cinephile » June 15th, 2018, 8:53 am

Out of place, yes, but I figured that's partly what made it great. It was unexpected.
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mightysparks on wrote:Also, though it made sense since he hadn't died in like 10 years, his awakening takes place over one episode. Whereas with Maeve and Dolores, we watched them waking up over the course of 30 years, and that fragmentation and repetition in the narrative made it effective. I guess I almost felt like he hadn't suffered enough to deserve my empathy.
My impression was that he was the first host that woke up and it took a long time for that. Just because it took one episode to show us that, it doesn't mean that it happened over night. He was becoming more and more conscious over time (a span of 10 years) maybe exactly because he wasn't being reset like most hosts that get killed quite often. Number of years passed even after that death of his as well. I believe that implication is that there are more ways than one to achieve self-awareness, not only through physical pain.
Although it has nothing to do with how he started becoming aware, I would argue against him not suffering. Quite like Maeve, his whole existence revolved around the person he loved, and she was snatched from him twice, then replaced by an impostor. I'd say he suffered quite a bit.

I also loved the twist that the episode provided. We assumed him and his tribe were ruthless killers, especially from Maeve's perspective, her flashbacks always showed them taking her daughter away. Little did we know that he was always trying to protect her from William.
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#43

Post by mightysparks » June 15th, 2018, 9:05 am

Cynical Cinephile on Jun 15 2018, 02:53:33 AM wrote:Out of place, yes, but I figured that's partly what made it great. It was unexpected.
Spoiler: click to toggleShow
mightysparks on wrote:Also, though it made sense since he hadn't died in like 10 years, his awakening takes place over one episode. Whereas with Maeve and Dolores, we watched them waking up over the course of 30 years, and that fragmentation and repetition in the narrative made it effective. I guess I almost felt like he hadn't suffered enough to deserve my empathy.
My impression was that he was the first host that woke up and it took a long time for that. Just because it took one episode to show us that, it doesn't mean that it happened over night. He was becoming more and more conscious over time (a span of 10 years) maybe exactly because he wasn't being reset like most hosts that get killed quite often. Number of years passed even after that death of his as well. I believe that implication is that there are more ways than one to achieve self-awareness, not only through physical pain.
Although it has nothing to do with how he started becoming aware, I would argue against him not suffering. Quite like Maeve, his whole existence revolved around the person he loved, and she was snatched from him twice, then replaced by an impostor. I'd say he suffered quite a bit.

I also loved the twist that the episode provided. We assumed him and his tribe were ruthless killers, especially from Maeve's perspective, her flashbacks always showed them taking her daughter away. Little did we know that he was always trying to protect her from William.
Spoiler: click to toggleShow
yeah I get that, what I meant was because we didn’t experience it structurally the same way (three fragmented narratives vs one linear narrative), I didn’t like, feel it.

But yea I did like the twist on the bad guys being the protectors.
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#44

Post by Cynical Cinephile » June 15th, 2018, 11:47 am

mightysparks on Jun 15 2018, 03:05:24 AM wrote:
Cynical Cinephile on Jun 15 2018, 02:53:33 AM wrote:Out of place, yes, but I figured that's partly what made it great. It was unexpected.
Spoiler: click to toggleShow
mightysparks on wrote:Also, though it made sense since he hadn't died in like 10 years, his awakening takes place over one episode. Whereas with Maeve and Dolores, we watched them waking up over the course of 30 years, and that fragmentation and repetition in the narrative made it effective. I guess I almost felt like he hadn't suffered enough to deserve my empathy.
My impression was that he was the first host that woke up and it took a long time for that. Just because it took one episode to show us that, it doesn't mean that it happened over night. He was becoming more and more conscious over time (a span of 10 years) maybe exactly because he wasn't being reset like most hosts that get killed quite often. Number of years passed even after that death of his as well. I believe that implication is that there are more ways than one to achieve self-awareness, not only through physical pain.
Although it has nothing to do with how he started becoming aware, I would argue against him not suffering. Quite like Maeve, his whole existence revolved around the person he loved, and she was snatched from him twice, then replaced by an impostor. I'd say he suffered quite a bit.

I also loved the twist that the episode provided. We assumed him and his tribe were ruthless killers, especially from Maeve's perspective, her flashbacks always showed them taking her daughter away. Little did we know that he was always trying to protect her from William.
Spoiler: click to toggleShow
yeah I get that, what I meant was because we didn’t experience it structurally the same way (three fragmented narratives vs one linear narrative), I didn’t like, feel it.

But yea I did like the twist on the bad guys being the protectors.
Spoiler: click to toggleShow
I see your point, but I disagree, nonetheless. We already experienced that in the first season, so we didn't need to see the same process again. It would be a rehash and it would be clear where it was heading. This way it came as a surprise. I felt this was the perfect way to introduce a new major character and to show that Dolores (and Maeve I guess) isn't that special. We'll just agree to disagree on this one.
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#45

Post by outdoorcats » June 20th, 2018, 1:36 am

episode 9.

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#46

Post by Cynical Cinephile » June 20th, 2018, 10:19 am

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None of us mentioned how much Teddy's story resembles Ake's. Both of them were kind first, then turned into monsters. However both became aware of their "natural" inclinations towards kindness eventually. Both lost their love (in a different way though).

All this kind of leads me to believe that our hero of 1st season is slowly turning into the main villain. In 1st season humans were bad guys (turned Ake into monster), but the more we watch, the more people working for Delos become "human" in our eyes, not as bad guys, but as humans with their faults and virtues, living in "grey" area.
Now we're going full circle and Dolores has become a psychopathic conqueror who turned her loved one into a monster. Westworld is threading new grounds with this, changing who we root for. I'm not rooting for Delos of course, but I'm not rooting for Dolores anymore either.

The only question is whose story is more tragic, Teddy's or Ake's?
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#47

Post by outdoorcats » June 23rd, 2018, 1:29 am

Cynical Cinephile on Jun 20 2018, 04:19:16 AM wrote:
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None of us mentioned how much Teddy's story resembles Ake's. Both of them were kind first, then turned into monsters. However both became aware of their "natural" inclinations towards kindness eventually. Both lost their love (in a different way though).

All this kind of leads me to believe that our hero of 1st season is slowly turning into the main villain. In 1st season humans were bad guys (turned Ake into monster), but the more we watch, the more people working for Delos become "human" in our eyes, not as bad guys, but as humans with their faults and virtues, living in "grey" area.
Now we're going full circle and Dolores has become a psychopathic conqueror who turned her loved one into a monster. Westworld is threading new grounds with this, changing who we root for. I'm not rooting for Delos of course, but I'm not rooting for Dolores anymore either.

The only question is whose story is more tragic, Teddy's or Ake's?
Spoiler: click to toggleShow
If Teddy is well and truly dead (they destroyed the backups in The Cradle, so I guess he is?) than his story is more tragic. Ake still has hope and his own purpose.

Ever since the S2 premiere I thought Dolores might become the antagonist of the overall show (thinking of the whole planned 5-season arc) here, with a mix of humans and hosts as protagonists (such as Team Maeve, or Bernard, Ashley, and Elsie). Each episode seems to reinforce this, with major characters poking holes in her grand scheme (Maeve: "You're lost in the dark..."), and her arc paralleling William's last episode (losing her last emotional anchor through her own fuckups, going off the deep end, losing all sense of self). With new information about "The Forge" learned last episode, I wonder if beyond trying to sell immortality to the highest bidders, Delos wasn't also just trying to perfectly clone guests - given the park is so expensive, an exclusively wealthy and powerful club of people - putting them in a position to essentially take over the world as they see fit. Perhaps they already have. In any case, Dolores might just take the keys from them. Which again reinforces the idea that Dolores will become the main antagonist of the show. Delos is more evil and more powerful right now, but I have a feeling the season finale could potentially render them irrelevant.

It will be interesting to see if and when the show expands it's struggle beyond the borders of the park.
Last edited by outdoorcats on June 23rd, 2018, 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#48

Post by mightysparks » June 23rd, 2018, 2:08 am

My boyfriend “isn’t in a rush” to watch the latest episode with me so I still haven’t been able to watch it :angry: :(
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#49

Post by outdoorcats » June 23rd, 2018, 2:16 pm

*devil on your shoulder whispering* Watch it without himmmmmmmmmm! :D

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#50

Post by outdoorcats » June 25th, 2018, 4:36 am

Spoiler: click to toggleShow
My first impression is that was one of the best hours of television ever. This despite the fact that I'm not exactly sure yet, having just finished, what the fuck just happened (especially that post-credits scene. I...what?). This definitely left more questions hanging than Season 1, and unlike the end of that season, there's no obvious direction for Season 3 ahead, beyond a battle of sorts between Dolores and Bernard in the real world. But what's the future for the other cast members? I assume Team Maeve will be saved by Felix and Sebastian, but what about Akecheta and her daughter, and Teddy? Are those cast members done with the show? Surely not Akecheta I guess, they just spent a full hour two weeks ago introducing him as a major new character, the promise of which he hasn't fulfilled yet. But if those characters' arcs aren't done, how will the writers get digital Eden to factor back into the main story? What is the main story anyway, especially in the park? No seriously, what is going to happen in Season 3? (and 4 and 5?)

In the words of Carol from TWD, "I have no idea what's going on in the most wonderful way!"

It reminded me a little of the Twin Peaks Season 2 finale. Utterly perplexing, dark, shocking (Lee AND Elsie? Jesus, that was depressing), uncompromising, bold, and unexpected from beginning to end.

Random questions...

1. Will Dolores-in-Dolores-body and Dolores-in-Charlotte-body develop slightly distinct personalities, or do they operate as a hive mind?
2. Why wouldn't Dolores risk being identified by a former park visitor? Why not just use Charlotte's body, or make a new one?
3. Is Ashley a host, or just a very loyal-to-Ford long-term employee who somehow identified Dolores and decided to let her go?
4. What is going on with William? Who did they rescue in that tent? Who is being tested for fidelity in some distant future...maybe? Is he real? WHAT IS REAL? What was Ford's plan for him? Has he finished it or is he still on the journey? (We didn't really get any answers about him this year, did we?) What is the show's endgame for him?
5. Who are the five hosts in Dolores-as-Charlotte's purse? This is a real interesting question because we know it's not Teddy and Dolores did a pretty good job driving everyone away by the end of the season. They are grey and not red which means they are host-hosts, not brain copies taken from the Forge. One of them may have been Bernard's.

Final thoughts, in the form of a personal letter addressed to Lisa Joy and Jonathan Nolan,

Dear Madam and Sir,

Please make Lee Sizemore's death scene some weird dream sequence.

Best regards,

outdoorcats
edit:
Spoiler: click to toggleShow
According to Joy, (spoilers if you don't want confirmation of your theories and prefer to wait for future seasons) the post-credits scene is a hint of things to come, presumably a glimpse of something from future seasons. It occurs in a different timeline than anything else we've seen, I'm guessing far in the future, maybe part of the show's endgame. She also confirms that the William we've been seeing for the rest of the season is real, and confirms that the daughter he killed was real.
Last edited by outdoorcats on June 27th, 2018, 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#51

Post by outdoorcats » June 27th, 2018, 3:09 am

WaterTower Music has released the full soundtrack on Youtube. Good on them. Some fantastic tracks in there, particularly the ones from episode 8 and the finale. The chamber music cover of
Spoiler: click to toggleShow
Radiohead's Codex
being my favorite. The track "Westworld" is a highlight too.
Last edited by outdoorcats on June 30th, 2018, 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#52

Post by Cynical Cinephile » June 30th, 2018, 8:27 am

Man, I hate these spoiler tags. Shouldn't a topic dedicated to Westworld be spoiler tags free. I mean, who's gonna open this topic if they aren't already watching. End of my rant.

I was expecting a twist, but Dolores in Charlotte's body was not something I saw coming. The post credit scene was a mind fuck of its own, but I immediately assumed it's a different timeline.

I'm glad Akecheta got his happy ending, but I guess it's not really an ending. His whole arc was about him finding out that the world he lives in wasn't real and now he's in a virtual eden of sorts, which certainly isn't real either. Or maybe it is, what is real after all?

I loved the 2nd season. I guess the game changes now and we're outside the bounds of the park and going more into the world of advanced AI. The show might get more into the 2 different outcomes of development of general AI and how it might become super AI, one possible outcome is humanity's death, the other is humanity's prosperity to unimaginable heights. Dolores will be the agent of first outcome and Bernard of the second (I figure). It's unclear how big of a role other hosts will have going forward and which of them will survive.

I'm not sure how 2 Dolores' work either, it might be a hive mind situation, might be 2 duplicates of the same program/person. I agree that it's risky to use Dolores original body, but I think the show runners were scared to completely go away with original Dolores and stick with Charlotte body Dolores in fear of fan outrage.
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#53

Post by outdoorcats » June 30th, 2018, 7:26 pm

Some people are still catching up, so more spoiler tag clicking for you. ^_^

Joy might have solved the mystery of the two Doloreses, by suggesting that, in the last scene (spoiler also for those who want to go into S3 blind)
Spoiler: click to toggleShow
Hale's body isn't Dolores anymore but someone else. Perhaps she put one of the other host minds in her purse in the Hale body, so that they can infiltrate Delos and initiate a world power-grab?

Virtual Eden might not be real, but at least they will now be able to trust their own minds and memories without outside interference. I do think Akecheta will be back somehow though.

The battle between Dolores and Bernard also has some certain similarities to Person of Interest, which I will keep under wraps, but if you've seen the show you know what I mean, right?

It does seem like we're getting the first AI outcome with that vaguely post-apocalyptic looking post-credits teaser with sand pouring into The Forge like it's an archaeological site. I'm guessing the show will eventually take place over a huge span of time and likely show the end of humanity in some form or another.
Overall I thought this was an outstanding season of television which it's been as fantastic to watch as it has been to analyze and deconstruct, here and on the AV Club recap comments section which has a lot of passionate fans. Even with artistically boundary-pushing shows becoming common (f.e. Hannibal, Legion, American Gods) this is easily the most excited I've been watching a show since the first time I saw Twin Peaks.

It is frustrating seeing wave after wave of article from TV critics proclaiming that everyone thinks Westworld sucks now, when a lot of those complaints from those same critics don't go any deeper than "too confusing," "too violent," or "too pretentious" (read: genre has to be dumb).
Last edited by outdoorcats on June 30th, 2018, 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#54

Post by mightysparks » July 1st, 2018, 2:09 am

I still haven't caught up :whistling: :angry:

I think this season has been pretty bad so far, but not for any of those reasons. It just hasn't been good. Way too much exposition and too little journey. Idk if the last few eps will change my mind, but I doubt it.
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#55

Post by outdoorcats » July 1st, 2018, 5:12 am

Without spoiling too much, I'm curious what the finale may change (or may not change) about how interested you'd be in Season 3.

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#56

Post by mightysparks » July 1st, 2018, 5:35 am

Well, I'm still interested. I still like the show and look forward to the eps. I'd probably give this season a 6/10 and the first a 9/10, though. So yea, we'll see.
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#57

Post by mightysparks » July 15th, 2018, 3:59 am

I FINALLY convinced my bf to watch the last 2 eps last night. Unfortunately I've kind of forgotten some stuff that happened earlier so I ended up getting a bit confused and will probably have to binge re-watch it all to piece it altogether.

I thought the finale was quite good, and I think the way it went was the only way it could've gone for a season 3 to work and I'm looking forward to see how that gets tackled.

I was annoyed that
SpoilerShow
they chose to make the worst actor on the show the 'new' Dolores, so I assume they'll use original Dolores body and have someone else be in Charlotte and hopefully get rid of her because every scene with her is awful.

The Man in Black 'reveal' was also frustrating (him being human is what made him interesting) but I guess there's more to it than what we've seen. Is he supposed to have 'shut down' for a while outside the forge and then wandered in X amount of time later? I also wish they'd give him another name so that I didn't get triggered every time someone said it.

I have no idea why Lee chose to kill himself?
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#58

Post by outdoorcats » July 16th, 2018, 3:46 am

I guess we can do away with spoiler tags now. But just in case you wandered in here while still catching up, SPOILERS ahead.

You really think Tessa Thompson is the worst actor on the show? It is a show full of great actors, but I've been a fan of Thompson's since Dear White People and she's been great in everything I've seen her in since.

Based on things the showrunners have said it seems MiB was human all season, except in the post-credits scene which takes place far in the future (a glimpse of the show's endgame). Same with his daughter. We don't have the full picture yet but it seems that he collapsed after losing his fingers to Dolores and was rescued by Delos employees, hence why we see him lying in the tent at the end. We also saw him going down the elevator, but that was part of the future timeline connected to the post-credits scene. Hence why when Bernard opens the elevator doors, he's not there. At some point in the distant future, a host with William's mind will be trapped in the same purgatory as Delos was, reliving the day he killed his daughter over...and over...and over...

I think Lee just really wanted to be Hector Escaton, someone unafraid of death and willing to sacrifice himself for his love in the most badass way possible.

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#59

Post by mightysparks » July 16th, 2018, 4:58 am

outdoorcats wrote:
July 16th, 2018, 3:46 am
I guess we can do away with spoiler tags now. But just in case you wandered in here while still catching up, SPOILERS ahead.

You really think Tessa Thompson is the worst actor on the show? It is a show full of great actors, but I've been a fan of Thompson's since Dear White People and she's been great in everything I've seen her in since.

Based on things the showrunners have said it seems MiB was human all season, except in the post-credits scene which takes place far in the future (a glimpse of the show's endgame). Same with his daughter. We don't have the full picture yet but it seems that he collapsed after losing his fingers to Dolores and was rescued by Delos employees, hence why we see him lying in the tent at the end. We also saw him going down the elevator, but that was part of the future timeline connected to the post-credits scene. Hence why when Bernard opens the elevator doors, he's not there. At some point in the distant future, a host with William's mind will be trapped in the same purgatory as Delos was, reliving the day he killed his daughter over...and over...and over...

I think Lee just really wanted to be Hector Escaton, someone unafraid of death and willing to sacrifice himself for his love in the most badass way possible.
Right, that makes more sense regarding MiB, I realised there was a different timeline with the elevator thing but couldn't work out when it was supposed to be.

I've never seen Tessa Thompson in anything else (that I can recall), but ever since her first episode I've waited for her character to die because she ruins every scene she's in. I don't think the character is that bad, but she really doesn't fit, imo.
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#60

Post by outdoorcats » July 17th, 2018, 12:22 am

Spoiler spoiler spoiler

Her Evan Rachel Wood-as-Dolores impersonation was spot-on, though. :D TT was also in Creed, Thor: Ragnarok, and Janelle Monae's Dirty Computer (she and Monae appear to be an item which would make them the most attractive couple in Hollywood). Her character in Westworld is quite hate-able but that's definitely on purpose.

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#61

Post by mightysparks » August 31st, 2018, 3:27 am

Soo, I'm making a start on my 4000 word Westworld and trauma essay, but I'm struggling to come up with a 6th topic to explore. My draft research question is something along the lines of 'how trauma's disruption of self is represented' (dunno if I can word that better yet). I've got consciousness, memory, identity, grief/suffering and reality. Some of the others I've been considering but may possibly fit within one of the other topics are time (could be covered under reality or memory) and humanity (probably covered in identity). Any thoughts on another?
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#62

Post by outdoorcats » August 31st, 2018, 3:57 am

Perhaps something along the lines of emotional displacement or loss-of-sense-of-belonging? You could draw a parallel between how Dolores no longer feels at home in Westworld to how some people who suffer from trauma no longer feel at home with their surroundings or their social circle.

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#63

Post by outdoorcats » March 16th, 2020, 3:04 am

Two years later...we're back.

The non spoiler version:

There's not a lot of things I trust more than Westworld and tonight's premiere reminded me why. It felt like settling into an old pair of slippers and kicking back on the sofa after a long day. Somehow, Nolan and Joy know just the right buttons to push for me. The premiere was a visually stunning work of art.

One of those buttons is my love of speculating over and untangling mysteries. And the Season 3 premiere was designed a little like the pilot, both visually (the use of fades to black, for instance) and in bombarding the audience with more information that most people could possibly take in with just one viewing (The Internet decided that was the show's big flaw last season; I'd argue its one of its strengths).

Here we have to go into spoilers:
SpoilerShow
-I knew of the casting of Aaron Paul, Kid Cudi, Lena Waite, and Marshawn Lynch (and a certain very well known European actor who I believe will play the powerful figure behind Incite), but not Tommy Flanagan. Great to see he'll lend his menacing facial scars and Scottish accent to a recurring role.

-The Rico app was pretty funny.

-Some anagram lover on Twitter has pointed out that Bernard's alias Armand Delgado is an anagram for Damaged Arnold.

-What is the extent (and limitations to) the AI, Rehoboam's, power? How much information is it allowed access to? (government feeds? personal electronics, such as all microphones everywhere?) If it's so all knowing, how has Dolores gotten as far as she has? Is it possibly deliberately allowing her to achieve its own goals? Very curious to learn more about how this entity functions and what interactions it will have with Dolores and Bernard going forward.

-Dolores brought at least 5 spheres with her. One was Bernard, which leaves 4+ question marks. One looks like Charlotte Hale, the other now looks like Martin Connells (the Tommy Flanagan character). Any speculation as to who they might be? We can presumably cross off all the hosts who entered the "afterlife" last season (including Teddy).

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#64

Post by mightysparks » March 16th, 2020, 8:18 am

I didn’t realize it was back already :circle:
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#65

Post by mightysparks » March 16th, 2020, 12:41 pm

Thought the first episode was ok, but a bit of a slow start. It feels very different to the previous seasons and it will probably take some time to adjust.
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#66

Post by outdoorcats » March 16th, 2020, 3:17 pm

It felt like the pilot to a new show, didn't it? (which seems appropriate given the change of setting)

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#67

Post by mightysparks » March 16th, 2020, 4:05 pm

Yeah, it did. My boyfriend commented that he didn’t remember it trying so hard to be ‘cool’. We also felt that it was difficult to place the time period, whereas it was kind of a vague future before but now it feels really foreign. The song choices were also quite odd (Death Grips and Pulp?).
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#68

Post by outdoorcats » March 16th, 2020, 5:02 pm

This teaser seems to date the show to around 2058. (also provides some interesting lore on events in world history from now until then)


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Paris destroyed by a nuke?! Damn.

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#69

Post by outdoorcats » March 23rd, 2020, 4:49 am

What an episode!

Granted, the
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Benioff and Weiss (and Drogon)
cameo was eye-rolling, but it still felt at place in an unusually fun episode. It helped that the action was driven by interpersonal dynamics between the most likable characters on the show.

Hopefully this isn't the last time this season we see an episode mostly focused on one character, as the showrunners seem to realize the narrative strength of that approach as opposed to cutting back and forth and giving each character only a piece of an arc per episode (for example, the Akecheta episode last season was a highlight).

I do worry going forward that
SpoilerShow
for the same reasons regarding interpersonal dynamics above, Maeve's storyline risks getting pretty dry. Having her showdown with Dolores makes complete sense. However, if she has no one to interact with except for Vincent Cassell and his goons until a showdown in the finale, it could get boring real quick. Hopefully Bernard and Stubbs get to her sooner rather than later, or her showdown with Dolores happens soon (though it would be a weird thing NOT to put as the climax of the season, but we'll see).

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#70

Post by mightysparks » March 23rd, 2020, 11:25 pm

Didn't really like the latest episode and the new season feels pretty weak so far. I thought the same about the second season and changed my mind on a rewatch, but this just is so far removed from what I loved about the show originally that I'm not sure it'll change. I didn't find it a 'fun' episode and the only likable character left for me is Bernard so I didn't get much out of the 'interpersonal dynamics'. Maeve is just a bore by this point, though I had liked her previously. Not sure I agree about the episodes focused one character either, they have been hit and miss for me.

I found myself laughing at a lot of the cheesy dialogue and shots which wasn't really a good sign...
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#71

Post by outdoorcats » March 24th, 2020, 1:09 am

No love for Stubbs?

The show is very different than the first season. Loved the first season, but I'm also glad the show has evolved. A lot of the tricks of Season 1 couldn't be repeated, and it doubly functions as a first chapter in what looks to be an epic narrative.

(Also, I want it on record before any new episodes air that I think the host inside the head of security guy is Lawrence. Calling it!)

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#72

Post by mightysparks » March 24th, 2020, 1:15 am

Stubbs is pretty dull and generic, I laughed at his face the whole episode. I do like that the show has evolved and is willing to go in new directions, but that doesn't mean I'm going to like those directions.. The first season was just such a great exploration of trauma and I first watched it at a time where that was really useful for me so I have endless love for it. I liked all the season 1 characters and storylines much more too. Everything is reallllly new in this season and it may just take some time to warm up to it, but it just hasn't really had that spark for me so far.
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#73

Post by mightysparks » April 6th, 2020, 11:40 am

This show is really going downhill, sadly. The latest episode was by far the worst episode, it was so terrible. The writing this season has been awful, I could've sworn it was a whole new team of writers who had never seen the show and were just given a vague plot summary and description of the characters. Contrivance after contrivance; not letting anything sink in, just constant exposition dump instead of involving us through structure; the characters are just caricatures of themselves now and the acting is not as good. I don't even think this show has evolved, there's no progression or growth, it's just become something else.

I don't think I've ever laughed so much during this show than in this episode (and not in a good way)
SpoilerShow
The absolutely pointless reveal that it was Dolores in all the bodies, which I thought they revealed last episode and was just a totally uninteresting story development.

Dolores basically having conversations with herself. Aaron Paul 'what is this' Dolores 'I thought your world would be different'. Not an answer.

The bank scene, lol wtf.

'Hello, Lover' (guess the writers are looking at The Room for inspiration now)

The Mortician lady following Maeve for no reason other than for the audience's 'surprise' when she gets shot.

William having a freakout and getting committed.

The acting by the actress playing his daughter.

All of his dialogue in this episode. What the hell did they to his character, jesus.

A bunch of other stuff I've forgotten. Edit: Oh! The Yakuza Dolores is about to end Maeve but instead decides one more second is just too long to get rid of a nemesis and heads off with his goons.
It's so generic and blah now, I really don't care what happens to anyone. I think I'm gonna pretend that the show ended after season 2 and this is a fever dream.

I'm half expecting to find out that none of it is even real, and I'm not sure if that would make it worse or better.
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#74

Post by outdoorcats » April 6th, 2020, 7:23 pm

To be fair, you said all this last season too. :p

But I was disappointed a little in the last two episodes, but for different reasons. I was hoping the show was moving more in the Leftovers/Watchmen style of storytelling where each episode focuses exclusively on a particular character and gives them a complete arc within that episode; instead the show is moving back into "chapter" style storytelling which is better binged than watched week to week. In other words, the episodes don't stand well on their own but are just pieces of an 8 hour movie. So there hasn't been a lot to write about.

However, last week I thought they brought back the trauma theme in an interesting way by having Charlotte be "replaced" by someone struggling to fit into their old role (after going through something traumatic), a good analogy for what it's like for someone who feels they've "changed" into a different person after going through something traumatic. Through that lens it was a great episode, it just felt unfinished at the end. This week's episode felt like filler, albeit entertaining filler, although I liked the reveal at the end because out of all possible scenarios, it made the most sense. Also, it raises the possibility of a very external Dolores identity crisis in coming episodes.

Interestingly, though you and I were (on a different scale and for different reasons) a little let down by the last couple episodes, they appear to have turned around many TV critics and audience members who were previously down on the show. I wonder if its because they've been more straightforward?

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#75

Post by mightysparks » April 7th, 2020, 12:00 am

Yea, but I think my main issue with last season was that I kept forgetting what had happened so nothing was coming together. I had to scroll up to reread my thoughts and I hadn’t realised I was saying the same things lol but it definitely wasn’t on the same level of badness as this season (though I’d probably bring up my rating of last season to 7/8 after rewatch). This season probably looking at a 4/10 at best.

I did like the trauma aspect of last week but I agree it felt unfinished and it just didn’t really go anywhere.

I don’t read about the show other than on here so I’m surprised to hear that critics aren’t panning this season, I was thinking it wasn’t likely it would get renewed for another. It has kind of turned into a simple Netflix-type action series so I guess that’s why some might prefer it.
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#76

Post by outdoorcats » April 13th, 2020, 2:23 am

Enjoyed tonight's episode much more. Spoilers:

You get the sense if there had been more episodes, they would have done one bottle episode showing life through the genre drug (which was great) and one Serac flashback episode. They make an odd pair because I'm not sure the intended connection if there was one. Still, maybe because it was longer and tried to do less, this was still the best episode of this season so far, relaxing on the rushed pace and heavy exposition that was bothering me the past two episodes and instead letting stylish and entertaining setpieces unfold. Letting things breathe and leaving spaces between action or information is key to emotional involvement, IMO, and it helped make the climactic sequence such an eerie, uncomfortable gut punch.

It also didn't hurt that this was the most Person of Interest-like the show has ever been, with Dolores essentially becoming Root, Rehoboam a stand-in for Samaritan and a surprise Enrico Colantoni sighting in brief mysterious flashes towards the end (his character is connected to Caleb's past somehow).

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#77

Post by mightysparks » April 13th, 2020, 12:21 pm

Spoilers below.

This was the first episode of the season I enjoyed so far, the bf still doesn't like it though. I mostly agree with your points. I thought the genre drug was an interesting concept, but felt cheesy and silly in context. I really like the concept of the predictive machine thing, but it relies too much on referencing what we've seen in the last couple of seasons which took place in an entirely different world and feels like cheap storytelling. I also don't really get why people would react to it the way they did and just take it on blind faith and go crazy. I think most people would just be like 'lol yep totes me' and continue. I couldn't help but think that if they'd made this season with entirely new human characters and developed up the human world more it would be much more interesting. Dolores is not the same character and not very interesting anymore, Bernard and Stubbs are irrelevant, Maeve is barely in it.
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#78

Post by outdoorcats » April 13th, 2020, 12:43 pm

It would have been interesting to see this new season, or even a single episode, with all the returning characters seen entirely from Caleb or other humans. That would have been a pure Leftovers move.

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#79

Post by outdoorcats » April 27th, 2020, 12:31 pm

Genuinely disappointed in the show for the first time last night. On paper, I was interested in most of the developments, but this was such a poorly written, edited and directed episode it didn't matter. Having actors like Jeffrey Wright and Ed Harris appear on screen together for the first time and not give them any meaningful interactions is wasted potential in its purest form.

I did like Solomon's conversation with Dolores, at least.

I wonder why Lisa Joy didn't direct an episode this year. I know I wasn't the only one who thought her Season 2 episode was the best directed of the series (and I would go so far as to call it a standout in television history).

Is this what the people who hated Season 2 wanted? I appear to be in the minority going by IMDb ratings.
Last edited by outdoorcats on April 27th, 2020, 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#80

Post by Traveller » April 27th, 2020, 5:20 pm

Episode 7 Spoiler

I'm still waiting for the reveal what bigger part Bernard plays in the grand scheme. It's obvious they're keeping him for future season(s) (I read in an article regarding the renewal that six seasons are planned), just like Ed Harris, who, proclaiming he will rid this world of Bernard's kind, might still be useful according to the very same, resulting in that last scene between them.
Also, why is Maeve so opposed to Dolores? Is she doing all this because she believes that Serac will reunite her with her daughter?
outdoorcats wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 12:31 pm
I did like giving Solomon's conversation with Dolores, at least.
I want to think it's Serac's brother in there and we get a battle between the two almighty AIs. With so much going on still, it feels like the first half of a season rather than a complete one.
outdoorcats wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 12:31 pm
Is this what the people who hated Season 2 wanted? I appear to be in the minority going by IMDb ratings.
Are you referring to the people unhappy/confused with the non-linear approach or was there something else the writers acknowledged and changed? I mean, people are people, so they're gonna hate. :D
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