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Trump v. Biden: A Septagenarian Scoundrel Skirmish for the Ages

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Armoreska
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#281

Post by Armoreska »

Onderhond wrote: November 8th, 2020, 10:32 pm
Armoreska wrote: November 8th, 2020, 10:25 pm I dont see how it shows that you need electoral college.
Well, it doesn't need to be the electoral college as it exists now, but you need something that gives smaller/rural communities a fighting chance against the bigger cities.
I thought in USA they valued individuals over communities.
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#282

Post by blocho »

Onderhond wrote: November 8th, 2020, 10:32 pm
Armoreska wrote: November 8th, 2020, 10:25 pm I dont see how it shows that you need electoral college.
Well, it doesn't need to be the electoral college as it exists now, but you need something that gives smaller/rural communities a fighting chance against the bigger cities.
I have an idea. What if certain people in this country, for purposes of political representation, only counted as three-fifths of a person? And then everyone else would count as a full person?
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#283

Post by Armoreska »

blocho wrote: November 9th, 2020, 2:05 am
Onderhond wrote: November 8th, 2020, 10:32 pm
Armoreska wrote: November 8th, 2020, 10:25 pm I dont see how it shows that you need electoral college.
Well, it doesn't need to be the electoral college as it exists now, but you need something that gives smaller/rural communities a fighting chance against the bigger cities.
I have an idea. What if certain people in this country, for purposes of political representation, only counted as three-fifths of a person? And then everyone else would count as a full person?
They do even w/o the college bc money has representation.

We should be glad population has representation at all. It could've been just single vote per state, and the election would now hinge on whether Arizona goes red or not.
you shouldnt criticize college but the whole office of presidency or at least the lack of negative vote. f.e. if 60% of the country are against someone's presidency, then it shouldn't be allowed.
if any state thinks it's getting a raw deal they should be able to stexit
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#284

Post by Armoreska »

I just realized the current state partisan breakdown only started being visible since 88 even tho it may have started forming in 64
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_Unit ... l_election
Jimmy Carter was actually mostly supported by bible belt, and would have lost to Ford if they only counted states.
Kennedy wouldve lost to Nixon even though he had most of the bible belt

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#285

Post by xianjiro »

Armoreska wrote: November 9th, 2020, 1:31 am
Onderhond wrote: November 8th, 2020, 10:32 pm
Armoreska wrote: November 8th, 2020, 10:25 pm I dont see how it shows that you need electoral college.
Well, it doesn't need to be the electoral college as it exists now, but you need something that gives smaller/rural communities a fighting chance against the bigger cities.
I thought in USA they valued individuals over communities.
nah, individuality is valued over individuals and what are communities anyway? :lol:
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#286

Post by xianjiro »

blocho wrote: November 9th, 2020, 2:05 am
Onderhond wrote: November 8th, 2020, 10:32 pm
Armoreska wrote: November 8th, 2020, 10:25 pm I dont see how it shows that you need electoral college.
Well, it doesn't need to be the electoral college as it exists now, but you need something that gives smaller/rural communities a fighting chance against the bigger cities.
I have an idea. What if certain people in this country, for purposes of political representation, only counted as three-fifths of a person? And then everyone else would count as a full person?
Surely wondering how the Originalists would parse that one!
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#287

Post by blocho »

xianjiro wrote: November 9th, 2020, 4:00 am
blocho wrote: November 9th, 2020, 2:05 am
Onderhond wrote: November 8th, 2020, 10:32 pm
Well, it doesn't need to be the electoral college as it exists now, but you need something that gives smaller/rural communities a fighting chance against the bigger cities.
I have an idea. What if certain people in this country, for purposes of political representation, only counted as three-fifths of a person? And then everyone else would count as a full person?
Surely wondering how the Originalists would parse that one!
Thanks for getting the reference. For those who don't, I suggest learning a little more about American history/politics before telling us what American democracy should look like.

Just an example:
- If I, as an American, told a person from another country how their government should work ...
- And furthermore, if I said that their government should not treat that person as an equal citizen, should instead make sure that this person does not have the same political rights as a person who lives in an area of lesser population density ...
- I would be a little presumptuous, wouldn't I?

OK, I'm done with this topic. Won't be back.
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#288

Post by Onderhond »

blocho wrote: November 9th, 2020, 4:27 am - If I, as an American, told a person from another country how their government should work ...
- And furthermore, if I said that their government should not treat that person as an equal citizen, should instead make sure that this person does not have the same political rights as a person who lives in an area of lesser population density ...
- I would be a little presumptuous, wouldn't I?
Americans? Presumptuous? Telling others how to behave and how to do things?
What a crazy world that would be!

Anyway, with Biden as president, you'd think people would be in favor again of a little positive discrimination to help out minorities.
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#289

Post by xianjiro »

Well, while some of us would actually see the US get out of the business of telling others how to run their countries, I don't expect much satisfaction in the coming administration. I think it was couched in terms of "our standing in the world" as in a return. I'd really prefer we'd try to be more consultive and collaborative going forward. But big egos die hard - sounds like a great title for the next installment of the terribly popular Bruce Willis series. When white separatists seize of golf estate, can John McClane rescue a former president and make America safe for all races?
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#290

Post by Onderhond »

I see the infighting has already started. Good to see some levelheadedness.
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#291

Post by sebby »

Onderhond wrote: November 9th, 2020, 8:23 am I see the infighting has already started. Good to see some levelheadedness.
I hope that isn't sarcasm. She is spot-o n in her crit of the party, and the fact that she has a very big voice and chooses to use it to promote progress is a very good thing.
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#292

Post by Onderhond »

sebby wrote: November 9th, 2020, 8:28 am
Onderhond wrote: November 9th, 2020, 8:23 am I see the infighting has already started. Good to see some levelheadedness.
I hope that isn't sarcasm. She is spot-o n in her crit of the party, and the fact that she has a very big voice and chooses to use it to promote progress is a very good thing.
No sarcasm at all (for real).
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#293

Post by Armoreska »

blocho wrote: November 9th, 2020, 4:27 am
xianjiro wrote: November 9th, 2020, 4:00 am
blocho wrote: November 9th, 2020, 2:05 am

I have an idea. What if certain people in this country, for purposes of political representation, only counted as three-fifths of a person? And then everyone else would count as a full person?
Surely wondering how the Originalists would parse that one!
Thanks for getting the reference. For those who don't, I suggest learning a little more about American history/politics before telling us what American democracy should look like.

Just an example:
- If I, as an American, told a person from another country how their government should work ...
- And furthermore, if I said that their government should not treat that person as an equal citizen, should instead make sure that this person does not have the same political rights as a person who lives in an area of lesser population density ...
- I would be a little presumptuous, wouldn't I?

OK, I'm done with this topic. Won't be back.
Well we're not all nationalists here, so would probably not get offended. :think:
Also those unwelcome advisors could just as well be quoting someone who lives in USA. :think:
And then USA should first stop influencing the world in any way. :think:
I think until then everyone in the world should get at least some voting powers upon USA :think:
I'd agree on being 1/10th of a person for starters :rolleyes:
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#294

Post by weirdboy »

Armoreska wrote: November 9th, 2020, 12:42 pm
blocho wrote: November 9th, 2020, 4:27 am
xianjiro wrote: November 9th, 2020, 4:00 am

Surely wondering how the Originalists would parse that one!
Thanks for getting the reference. For those who don't, I suggest learning a little more about American history/politics before telling us what American democracy should look like.

Just an example:
- If I, as an American, told a person from another country how their government should work ...
- And furthermore, if I said that their government should not treat that person as an equal citizen, should instead make sure that this person does not have the same political rights as a person who lives in an area of lesser population density ...
- I would be a little presumptuous, wouldn't I?

OK, I'm done with this topic. Won't be back.
Well we're not all nationalists here, so would probably not get offended. :think:
Also those unwelcome advisors could just as well be quoting someone who lives in USA. :think:
And then USA should first stop influencing the world in any way. :think:
I think until then everyone in the world should get at least some voting powers upon USA :think:
I'd agree on being 1/10th of a person for starters :rolleyes:
You would be better off setting up a Delware corporation and funding a super pac.
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#295

Post by Pretentious Hipster »

Are liberals doing this cringe that she did back in July now that Trump lost?

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#296

Post by Armoreska »

Who's that, what's she doing and how it relevant tho
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#297

Post by Pretentious Hipster »

Armoreska wrote: November 9th, 2020, 5:52 pm Who's that, what's she doing and how it relevant tho
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#298

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

blocho wrote: November 9th, 2020, 4:27 am
xianjiro wrote: November 9th, 2020, 4:00 am
blocho wrote: November 9th, 2020, 2:05 am

I have an idea. What if certain people in this country, for purposes of political representation, only counted as three-fifths of a person? And then everyone else would count as a full person?
Surely wondering how the Originalists would parse that one!
Thanks for getting the reference. For those who don't, I suggest learning a little more about American history/politics before telling us what American democracy should look like.

Just an example:
- If I, as an American, told a person from another country how their government should work ...
- And furthermore, if I said that their government should not treat that person as an equal citizen, should instead make sure that this person does not have the same political rights as a person who lives in an area of lesser population density ...
- I would be a little presumptuous, wouldn't I?

OK, I'm done with this topic. Won't be back.
If any American, Canadian, Chinese.. simply any not European has ideas and advice on a discussion forum about how to make the EU more democratic with every citizens vote counting while making sure the smaller states aren’t over ruled by the larger one, I would gladly hear them out. And if someone have ideas how to make the Dutch democracy better too.

And yes I totally got the reference.
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#299

Post by Pretentious Hipster »

Dunno how it is in Europe, but I find 2 systems to be better.

In Canada, you don't vote for the prime minister. You vote for a representative of the party in each area. The leader that becomes prime minister is the one that has the most representatives from their party. Each elected representative gets a seat in the house of commons. With this a third party can be just as effective as one of the major 2. The only HUGE problem is that if the house passes a bill, it goes to the senate. The senators are NOT elected.

Cuba also has a great system that is quite similar. The national legislature has 609 seats, with 2 to 5 members per district. These members are elected. Each of them once again have a vote for every law that gets passed.

They do take it a bit far with this, but it still much better than most countries. They place limits on how they can campaign. In cuba, they go all the way and just have bios of the candidates and predetermined locations where they can post themselves and messages. I wouldn't go that far, but I would 100% add spending caps which I think is a MAJOR flaw of elections in other countries.
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#300

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

While I do support a switch to a popular vote for the presidency, I think Onderhond rightfully points out that there are criticism to be made against that system. With the big rural-city divide there is a danger with that system the vote of rural, less populous areas while be completely overshadowed by the will of the populous, city areas. Which might only lead to more feelings of disillusionment, not being heard/represented and resentment.
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#301

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

Anyway happy with the Biden win. Hope he can move the USA forward and heal the nation
Last edited by Lonewolf2003 on November 9th, 2020, 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#302

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

xianjiro wrote: November 8th, 2020, 2:11 am
Pretentious Hipster wrote: November 7th, 2020, 11:45 pm
This should be viewed as a strong hint to what the Biden administration is going to look like. There are also reports he's looking at card-carrying Republicans for cabinet posts. While I know that isn't going to excite some, after McConnell said he plans on blocking progressive Biden nominees, it might be just the right shot across the bow. If McConnell retains control of the Senate, Congress will sign off on very little of the presidential agenda if Biden and McConnell can't work together.

It’s indeed actually what Biden need to do, appoint some Rep to cabinet posts, to really put in action his words about healing a divided country, being an administration for every American and the whole USA and seeing only United States and not blue or red states. And yes it’s also political tactical the smart thing to do with a hostile Senate against you.
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#304

Post by xianjiro »

sebby wrote: November 9th, 2020, 8:28 am
Onderhond wrote: November 9th, 2020, 8:23 am I see the infighting has already started. Good to see some levelheadedness.
I hope that isn't sarcasm. She is spot-o n in her crit of the party, and the fact that she has a very big voice and chooses to use it to promote progress is a very good thing.
While I think the most telling part
“There’s a reason Barack Obama built an entire national campaign apparatus outside of the Democratic National Committee,” she told the Times’ Astead Herndon. “And there’s a reason that when he didn’t activate or continue that, we lost House majorities. Because the party – in and of itself – does not have the core competencies, and no amount of money is going to fix that.”
says the problem is that the party doesn't have a professional, national campaign team there are clearly other factors at play. I just don't buy that the only cause was not enough Medicare for All or Green New Deal campaign talk or likewise that there was too much talk about Black lives or Green New Deal: all these things are factors! No doubt some progressives didn't vote because they weren't excited my milk toast centrism. Likewise, some centrists might not have voted because they're fearful of "socialism". Dems need both sides. (And it's not just Dems.)

The idea that there is either one thing or one person to blame - and that suggests plucking out that problem will "fix" things - is nonsense! It's systemic and only the Ds seem consistently able to snatch defeat out of the arms of victory (though I'm not basing that concept of victory on polling) If they are going to have a single, unified message, it's dangerous for that to be about a single policy issue. There just isn't a single policy anyone agrees on other than maybe "protect ACA (Obamacare)". It's the sort of thing few to the left of McConnell will patently disagree with but it's subject to lots of interpretation.

No, Ds need to find something else. The Rs rally around concepts of "fiscal conservatism" and "family values" and a healthy overdose of Christian morality. (Let's ignore deplorable things like white supremacy and unilateralism and other features tied more closely to the Trump base.) What three concepts are fundamental to all Ds? Decide on these and then start messaging now for 2022: then allow Congressional and local campaigns to tailor that message to the local conditions.

But more importantly, they need to come up with some better central party organization (or simply none at all). It rather begs the question, if they can't run their own party and campaign effectively, how the hell can the be expected to run the country?
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#305

Post by xianjiro »

Lonewolf2003 wrote: November 9th, 2020, 7:40 pm While I do support a switch to a popular vote for the presidency, I think Onderhond rightfully points out that there are criticism to be made against that system. With the big rural-city divide there is a danger with that system the vote of rural, less populous areas while be completely overshadowed by the will of the populous, city areas. Which might only lead to more feelings of disillusionment, not being heard/represented and resentment.
This is the exact opposite of the critique of Japan: too much power given to rural constituencies (which tend to be more conservative) at the expense of the simply massive urban areas has lead to almost consistent control by a single party and implacability.

I mention this because, much as it seems the fix of one problem is the opposite, looking around a bit more tells us it's just not the case. There has to be some balance between interests that compete. The goal of the founders of the American republic was that by combining the two, balance could be found. While not exclusive, most House reps represent a similar number of constituents but this isn't so in the Senate, but the Senate wasn't meant to be as partisan as it is today, it was meant to be "statesmanlike" - to look at the whole picture. Remember, Senators weren't meant to be elected by popular vote nor was the president as we've discussed before.

No matter what, in a well-functioning democracy, there has to be a protection of minority rights and what we are seeing are legislative attempts do that. It's just never going to be easy and as long "winner takes all" decides things, then minority groups, even large ones, will likely feel left out. I mean honestly, how do you craft a healthcare system that pleases those that want a centralised state solution and those that want a free market approach?

I personally wish I knew more about some of the hybrid systems in place in "smaller" democracies.
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#306

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

xianjiro wrote: November 9th, 2020, 8:36 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: November 9th, 2020, 7:40 pm While I do support a switch to a popular vote for the presidency, I think Onderhond rightfully points out that there are criticism to be made against that system. With the big rural-city divide there is a danger with that system the vote of rural, less populous areas while be completely overshadowed by the will of the populous, city areas. Which might only lead to more feelings of disillusionment, not being heard/represented and resentment.
This is the exact opposite of the critique of Japan: too much power given to rural constituencies (which tend to be more conservative) at the expense of the simply massive urban areas has lead to almost consistent control by a single party and implacability.

I mention this because, much as it seems the fix of one problem is the opposite, looking around a bit more tells us it's just not the case. There has to be some balance between interests that compete. The goal of the founders of the American republic was that by combining the two, balance could be found. While not exclusive, most House reps represent a similar number of constituents but this isn't so in the Senate, but the Senate wasn't meant to be as partisan as it is today, it was meant to be "statesmanlike" - to look at the whole picture. Remember, Senators weren't meant to be elected by popular vote nor was the president as we've discussed before.

No matter what, in a well-functioning democracy, there has to be a protection of minority rights and what we are seeing are legislative attempts do that. It's just never going to be easy and as long "winner takes all" decides things, then minority groups, even large ones, will likely feel left out. I mean honestly, how do you craft a healthcare system that pleases those that want a centralised state solution and those that want a free market approach?

I personally wish I knew more about some of the hybrid systems in place in "smaller" democracies.
I don’t know enough about Japanese democracy to commit about it. But there is of course also a danger of the opposite effect in an system that gives too much power to less populous areas.
What I wanted to point out is that neither system, electoral or popular vote, are perfect cure-all solutions. They both have inherent flaws and shortcomings. What is needed is indeed a system of checks and balances to safeguard against those risks.

How you come up with a solution to seemingly incompatible views is by not starting the discussion with fixed solutions, but by discussing the problems and ways the different solution address those problems and try to find common ground and consensus based on that. And, this is very important in this process, actual listen to each other arguments. A discussion between “I want everyone to be insured for health care” and “I don’t want health care to become unsustainable expensive” might be easier.
And sometimes alas that’s not possible either than.
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#307

Post by Pretentious Hipster »

Don't forget that Japan is racist and nationalist as fuck and they use weeaboo culture to counteract that
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#308

Post by Onderhond »

Before you can even begin to talk different systems of democracy, you have to fix accountability of politicians first.
As long as they can do pretty much whatever they please, no system is going to lead to anything substantially positive for voters.
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#309

Post by Pretentious Hipster »

Lmao they keep saying this

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#310

Post by Onderhond »

Meanwhile, my twitter feed has been swamped with this tweet for days in a row
I love seeing Trump supporters CRY, it's my daily medicine, my weekly energy, my monthly inspiration and my yearly motivation. His loss is the only reason i'm still alive, i was born to love and enjoy the failure that he has achieved.
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PeacefulAnarchy
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#311

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

I just don't understand how people can be so happy about an election. Even if some perfect candidate who espoused exactly my views won a resounding victory I'd be happy but I wouldn't feel like cheering or dancing or celebrating. I'd just be thinking "Wow, that's great I can't believe someone I agree with won, well, let's see what they are able to do." An election isn't an achievement, even at its best it's just the first step in whatever you want to happen.
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Lonewolf2003
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#312

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: November 9th, 2020, 11:08 pm I just don't understand how people can be so happy about an election. Even if some perfect candidate who espoused exactly my views won a resounding victory I'd be happy but I wouldn't feel like cheering or dancing or celebrating. I'd just be thinking "Wow, that's great I can't believe someone I agree with won, well, let's see what they are able to do." An election isn't an achievement, even at its best it's just the first step in whatever you want to happen.
I think it’s mostly a matter of being in the moment and putting all those (rightful) skepticism, pragmatism and realism into the back of your brain and just for a day or so enjoy the win. reality and all the real concern can come later.
And a large part of the celebration we see now is of course also a mainly about being rid of Trump.
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PeacefulAnarchy
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#313

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

Yeah I understand why, I don't understand how. It's probably a "me" problem that I can't "be in the moment" in that way. It's a sentiment that's not limited to elections, I see the same kind of thing in all sorts of areas of life. It's not that I don't understand or feel similar emotions, I'm just not inclined to express them that way, I guess.
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#314

Post by Dolwphin »

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#315

Post by Armoreska »

Pretentious Hipster wrote: November 9th, 2020, 10:22 pm Lmao they keep saying this
kill em with kindness
he or A. or Armo or any

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#316

Post by xianjiro »

Onderhond wrote: November 9th, 2020, 10:00 pm Before you can even begin to talk different systems of democracy, you have to fix accountability of politicians first.
As long as they can do pretty much whatever they please, no system is going to lead to anything substantially positive for voters.
This is an interesting point that was abundantly clear during this election cycle. Repeatedly, party mailers (for both I'm told, though I only saw blue ones) promised things like "respond by DATE and your contribution will be tripled/quadrupled". Now the problem is there's really no legal way this can be done in the US given current campaign finance laws (I read about it, but don't remember the specifics). So basically it's a known lie to voters, but it gets people (especially smaller contributors) to write checks because they think, "My $25 isn't much, but it's magically going to be become $100!" Absolutely BS. About the only way money can be multiplied like this is if one part of the party apparatus transfers funds to another, but anyway, most everyone in the know just knows it's a lie.

So why is allowed to continue? Well one, both parties do it and two, they write the rules that govern how elections are conducted, and three, it's against their own self-interest to change it because it would lead to lower fundraising and we all know it's all about the money.

The only counter is, if voters don't like it, they should run and support candidates who pledge to change this corruption.
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#317

Post by xianjiro »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: November 9th, 2020, 11:08 pm I just don't understand how people can be so happy about an election. Even if some perfect candidate who espoused exactly my views won a resounding victory I'd be happy but I wouldn't feel like cheering or dancing or celebrating. I'd just be thinking "Wow, that's great I can't believe someone I agree with won, well, let's see what they are able to do." An election isn't an achievement, even at its best it's just the first step in whatever you want to happen.
Agreed though one caveat would be working actively on a given campaign or if one knows the candidate personally - then the excitement is more obvious to me. I'll also say there have been a few moments where ballot measure passage has elicited outright joy on my part - sort of like when the SCOTUS paved the way for gay marriage. That was a monumental change that brought great joy.
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#318

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

xianjiro wrote: November 10th, 2020, 2:30 am
PeacefulAnarchy wrote: November 9th, 2020, 11:08 pm I just don't understand how people can be so happy about an election. Even if some perfect candidate who espoused exactly my views won a resounding victory I'd be happy but I wouldn't feel like cheering or dancing or celebrating. I'd just be thinking "Wow, that's great I can't believe someone I agree with won, well, let's see what they are able to do." An election isn't an achievement, even at its best it's just the first step in whatever you want to happen.
Agreed though one caveat would be working actively on a given campaign or if one knows the candidate personally - then the excitement is more obvious to me. I'll also say there have been a few moments where ballot measure passage has elicited outright joy on my part - sort of like when the SCOTUS paved the way for gay marriage. That was a monumental change that brought great joy.
Yeah, those are different things to me. The first is being happy for your own accomplishment or that of someone you are closely connected with, which is much more understandable (though I don't think even the happiest moment in my life has had me cheering for more than a couple of minutes). The second is concrete action (maybe); a clear ballot measure or law passage or court ruling, especially one that affects your life or that of loved ones or rights a grave injustice, is a more concrete reason to celebrate.

Writing this there are probably a bunch of intermingled reasons why I don't get it. I probably don't feel feelings as deeply as many of these people, I'm much more reserved about showing those feelings when I do, and I certainly don't feel an election is something to feel elation about, at best optimism or concern or relief. And the specific circumstances of this election are ones I'm not all that optimistic about to begin with so that just widens the gap.
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#319

Post by xianjiro »

True. But then again, I don't get why some people are out most nights protesting (either against the police or for Black lives or whatever). I do get that people get caught up in a given moment, especially those that are highly extroverted. It's one of the things that scares me because that herd mentality can easily turn negative and harmful. I see them as two sides of the coin.
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#320

Post by Onderhond »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: November 9th, 2020, 11:34 pm Yeah I understand why, I don't understand how. It's probably a "me" problem that I can't "be in the moment" in that way. It's a sentiment that's not limited to elections, I see the same kind of thing in all sorts of areas of life. It's not that I don't understand or feel similar emotions, I'm just not inclined to express them that way, I guess.
I think for most it's not much different from rooting for a sports team/athlete. You pick a side, root for that side, you cheer them on and you're elated when they win. Even though you did absolutely nothing.
xianjiro wrote: November 10th, 2020, 2:25 am Repeatedly, party mailers (for both I'm told, though I only saw blue ones) promised things like "respond by DATE and your contribution will be tripled/quadrupled".
That's a very specific point though. Let's just start with the broad promises they make during campaigning and find a way to hold them accountable when they can't meet them.
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