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Covid-19 quarantine zone (Not just a worldwide Flu!)

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Got it?

Yeah, I got it and feel HORRIBLE.
0
No votes
Yes, I got it, but am doing okay.
1
2%
Yes, I had it but have recovered.
1
2%
I think I had it, but not sure.
5
8%
No, still waiting.
44
71%
No, I know I won't get it. Ever.
8
13%
What are we talking about? I live under a rock.
3
5%
 
Total votes: 62

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jvv
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Re: Covid-19 quarantine zone (Not just a worldwide Flu!)

#1841

Post by jvv » August 13th, 2020, 11:27 pm

Speaking about Florida:


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#1842

Post by Onderhond » August 14th, 2020, 6:12 am

xianjiro wrote:
August 13th, 2020, 11:11 pm
(See, you did have an ulterior motive: it was just very different from the one I've had to deal with repeatedly. :lol: )
Well, it's just one concern about masks, my main concern (is there net benefit) wouldn't go away if the temperature dropped 10°C. I find current reporting in general quite vague, often scientifically incomplete, and because some people here are clearly more invested into the whole matter I figured it would be nice to ask about more in-depth articles on he subject.

I really don't trust myself with DIY science/research, which I think is an approach more people should take.
Onderhond wrote:
August 13th, 2020, 11:51 am
As for science and communicating with the masses: I'd say this is the failure of political leadership, not science. For instance, a certain leader of a large industrial power is incapable of communicating meaningfully so lots of others have to step in and fill the void. Scientists talk and the media tries to pre-digest for the masses. Everything is subjected to the political spin cycle. It's no wonder it's a muddle.
I know it's hip to make science political nowadays (again though, the situation is way more extreme in the US), but it's a problem that has existed for much longer. The scientific community should take more ownership of its findings and communication, because laymen simply can't understand half of what they are doing or saying and science/research is being misreported constantly, regardless of political preference.

Like how over 30 years time, just about every item of food has been reported as being cancer-inducing. Or reports about the failures of peer reviews. Or p-hacking. Or research that gets quoted without proof of being reproducible. It's no surprise some people are losing their trust in science (especially the ones who aren't up to speed about how science is supposed to work) and I think science itself should take ownership of that problem.

In that sense though, scientists are a bit like movie directors. They mostly just care about doing the science, not what happens with it afterwards (to they are prone to complain when they don't like the results).
Onderhond wrote:
August 13th, 2020, 11:51 am
Agreed, but then again people do lots of stuff for all sorts of reasons - there's little we can do about that.
Isn't that the main reason social sciences exist? And why people complain they haven't been involved more in the decision-making process? I'm not a big fan myself, but this is one case where the 80%-science could actually prove very useful.

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#1843

Post by brokenface » August 14th, 2020, 9:43 am

Onderhond wrote:
August 14th, 2020, 6:12 am
Like how over 30 years time, just about every item of food has been reported as being cancer-inducing. Or reports about the failures of peer reviews. Or p-hacking. Or research that gets quoted without proof of being reproducible. It's no surprise some people are losing their trust in science (especially the ones who aren't up to speed about how science is supposed to work) and I think science itself should take ownership of that problem.

In that sense though, scientists are a bit like movie directors. They mostly just care about doing the science, not what happens with it afterwards (to they are prone to complain when they don't like the results).
'Science' gets used and abused by media, politicians, corporations, etc. How do you stop that? All you can do is try to educate people so they can see the bullshit. Peer review/publishing is an imperfect system but it does create a record and the way it is supposed to work is that you can try to reproduce the research and if you get different results you should be able to publish that too. The major flaw is the bias towards publishing positive results, but this really goes back to funding.

I don't think it's true or fair to say they don't care what happens with it afterwards, but I'd agree they do mainly want to spend time on science rather than spending all their time fighting inaccurate media/political representations of what they do, because that is a job that would never end. Ultimately they'll get judged on real-world results. e.g. if a Covid vaccine is successful it'll be because scientists spent their time on research not because they spent their time countering media scare-stories about vaccines.

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#1844

Post by Onderhond » August 14th, 2020, 10:46 am

brokenface wrote:
August 14th, 2020, 9:43 am
'Science' gets used and abused by media, politicians, corporations, etc. How do you stop that? All you can do is try to educate people so they can see the bullshit. Peer review/publishing is an imperfect system but it does create a record and the way it is supposed to work is that you can try to reproduce the research and if you get different results you should be able to publish that too. The major flaw is the bias towards publishing positive results, but this really goes back to funding.
By taking more ownership over how their work is communicated? I understand it's not a very easy thing to do as science isn't really one thing, but now they almost fully leave it to media (and politicians) to report on their findings, which is just asking for trouble. Either the media aims to spin things, or they themselves don't fully understand the results of certain research.

Educating people is hard because science is getting increasingly difficult to understand, especially for people who don't have a background in science and/or can't see all the implications of certain results. There needs to be a good middle ground where capable people can translate from science to laymen speak.
brokenface wrote:
August 14th, 2020, 9:43 am
I don't think it's true or fair to say they don't care what happens with it afterwards, but I'd agree they do mainly want to spend time on science rather than spending all their time fighting inaccurate media/political representations of what they do, because that is a job that would never end. Ultimately they'll get judged on real-world results. e.g. if a Covid vaccine is successful it'll be because scientists spent their time on research not because they spent their time countering media scare-stories about vaccines.
Well, they care as much as "I wish it was better reported", but that's a bit lazy. I'm not saying they themselves should do all the dirty work (because let's face it, most scientists aren't even capable of that, nor should they be), but the current situation is problematic. Trust in science has eroded and they carry a large part of the blame. And with science becoming increasingly "magical", there is a real need to better explain to people how our world works.

I mean, what good is a Covid vaccine if people don't trust science enough to use it?

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#1845

Post by brokenface » August 14th, 2020, 11:34 am

Onderhond wrote:
August 14th, 2020, 10:46 am
brokenface wrote:
August 14th, 2020, 9:43 am
'Science' gets used and abused by media, politicians, corporations, etc. How do you stop that? All you can do is try to educate people so they can see the bullshit. Peer review/publishing is an imperfect system but it does create a record and the way it is supposed to work is that you can try to reproduce the research and if you get different results you should be able to publish that too. The major flaw is the bias towards publishing positive results, but this really goes back to funding.
By taking more ownership over how their work is communicated? I understand it's not a very easy thing to do as science isn't really one thing, but now they almost fully leave it to media (and politicians) to report on their findings, which is just asking for trouble. Either the media aims to spin things, or they themselves don't fully understand the results of certain research.

Educating people is hard because science is getting increasingly difficult to understand, especially for people who don't have a background in science and/or can't see all the implications of certain results. There needs to be a good middle ground where capable people can translate from science to laymen speak.
People consume bad media. That is the fundamental issue. You can take all the ownership you want, you can provide all the good layman science writing (and there is plenty of that), but if people choose to watch the Fox News/Daily Mail version of reality instead, they ain't going to see it. There are things scientists can do better, but there's also wider issues here.
Onderhond wrote:
August 14th, 2020, 10:46 am
brokenface wrote:
August 14th, 2020, 9:43 am
I don't think it's true or fair to say they don't care what happens with it afterwards, but I'd agree they do mainly want to spend time on science rather than spending all their time fighting inaccurate media/political representations of what they do, because that is a job that would never end. Ultimately they'll get judged on real-world results. e.g. if a Covid vaccine is successful it'll be because scientists spent their time on research not because they spent their time countering media scare-stories about vaccines.
Well, they care as much as "I wish it was better reported", but that's a bit lazy. I'm not saying they themselves should do all the dirty work (because let's face it, most scientists aren't even capable of that, nor should they be), but the current situation is problematic. Trust in science has eroded and they carry a large part of the blame. And with science becoming increasingly "magical", there is a real need to better explain to people how our world works.
You're being kind of unfair here, first you accept that they shouldn't be the ones to do all the dirty work, but then you immediately blame them for declining trust. I don't even know that there necessarily is declining trust in all areas, but the people trying to make partisan issues of things that should not be partisan, like medical treatment, are mostly media & politicians.
Onderhond wrote:
August 14th, 2020, 10:46 am
I mean, what good is a Covid vaccine if people don't trust science enough to use it?
The good is you have a vaccine! The trust is not as bad as you seem to be implying. Studies on hypothetical willingness to take a Covid vaccine I've seen have been ~50-70% in different countries and some of the unwilling will be 'don't know' rather than outright no. Obviously a lot of factors will play into that if/when a vaccine is actually available, but it's far, far, far, far, far more important for scientists to focus on making a vaccine that works, & is safe, for the majority who will be willing to take it, than for them to waste their time trying to convince the anti-vaccine crew to trust them. No amount of scientific reason is going to get through to people who reject scientific method altogether. And the best and only real hope of persuading any of them is by demonstrating something that works.

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#1846

Post by Onderhond » August 14th, 2020, 11:57 am

brokenface wrote:
August 14th, 2020, 11:34 am
People consume bad media. That is the fundamental issue. You can take all the ownership you want, you can provide all the good layman science writing (and there is plenty of that), but if people choose to watch the Fox News/Daily Mail version of reality instead, they ain't going to see it. There are things scientists can do better, but there's also wider issues here.
Good laymen science writing is hard to find, it's far from an easy/default option. Good sources are always welcome!
My primary claim is though that they're making it way too easy for media to abuse research/findings.
brokenface wrote:
August 14th, 2020, 11:34 am
You're being kind of unfair here, first you accept that they shouldn't be the ones to do all the dirty work, but then you immediately blame them for declining trust. I don't even know that there necessarily is declining trust in all areas, but the people trying to make partisan issues of things that should not be partisan, like medical treatment, are mostly media & politicians.
I don't think it's unfair. As a field that is at the service of humankind, I think you have an obligation to inform people as correctly and completely as possible. If scientists themselves can't do that, they need to hire people or create a platform of capable people to do that for them. They can't just live in a vacuum where they're doing happy sciencing on a daily basis, then complain that people are misquoting or abusing their work.

Hence the analogy I made earlier with directors, who sign up with production houses and distributors with no regard at all for the consumer, but still complain in media or on Twitter about people pirating their work. Maybe if they'd made more of an effort to actually get their films into the hands of consumers, people might actually feel sorry for them.

And again, it's not just partisan problems (which is a much bigger problem in the USA than in most other countries), it's a distrust that has been growing for years because of conflicting reports in papers, on TV and whatnot (and we also have state-funded news that is relatively unbiased, but they misreport/underreport too sometimes). It's no surprise then that politicians and biased media are using that distrust for their own profit. A lot of the damage has already been done though.

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#1847

Post by brokenface » August 14th, 2020, 12:23 pm

Academic research scientists tend to be having to spend a lot of their time writing grant proposals just to be able to keep doing their research, they are not in position to hire PR teams to counter media misrepresentation of that work.

And similarly, to go with your analogy, most directors spend half their time trying to scramble around for enough funding to make their next film. Their choice often comes down to make the film with this production house or don't make the film. You don't have to feel sorry for them, but they have right to complain if people just take their work & they feel that harms their chances of being able to keep doing it.

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#1848

Post by peeptoad » August 14th, 2020, 12:25 pm

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3852879/
...maybe similar to most physicians not understanding about nutrition because they are simply not trained in that area.
Perhaps this is the start of a new University career path for some since it apparently isn't being taught regularly (or effectively) in current programs.

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#1849

Post by Onderhond » August 14th, 2020, 12:38 pm

brokenface wrote:
August 14th, 2020, 12:23 pm
You don't have to feel sorry for them, but they have right to complain if people just take their work & they feel that harms their chances of being able to keep doing it.
Well yeah, everyone has the right to complain, just as everyone has the right to ignore other people's complaints. It's not a very constructive attitude though and it's not going to fix any problems.

@peeptoad: that's an awesome link, pretty much sums up what I've been trying to say. Thanks!

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#1850

Post by peeptoad » August 14th, 2020, 12:47 pm

brokenface wrote:
August 14th, 2020, 12:23 pm
Academic research scientists tend to be having to spend a lot of their time writing grant proposals just to be able to keep doing their research, they are not in position to hire PR teams to counter media misrepresentation of that work.
I agree with this. It should probably be the job of someone in an associated role though. All of the Principal Investigators that I work with are basically swamped to the point that they cannot even effectively manage their lab members, research technicians, etc. so they typically hire laboratory managers (with applicable scientific background) to do just that.
A person whose primary focus is the interpretation of research analyses and results would be exceedingly helpful for the general public's understanding, but interpretation is always going to hinge a little on subjectivity, i.e. there is always the "risk" of someone's opinion being inserted into an analysis of something. Therefore it would probably be best to leave this activity to someone that lies outside of the research l;ab where the experiments were conducted, aside form tasking an already busy scientist with that job.

Having said that there are some very good PIs (one very prominent one at my job) that can also face the media and general public and get their message across. It's a rarer combination of personality traits that lead to success in this area though.

@Onderhond: you're welcome!


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#1852

Post by blocho » August 14th, 2020, 7:33 pm

Trying to use science to guide your life is full of frustrations. Some of the people who have posted above are entirely correct about some of the biggest problems: findings that are not reproducible, publishing bias which rewards bold new claims rather than negative results (or doing the unglamorous work of redoing studies to see if their findings are indeed reproducible). To take just a few examples of topics I have some passing familiarity with, dietary science is often based on tremendously flawed studies and assumptions to the point that the field has reversed itself on many major issues over the past few decades. And don't get me started on psychiatry, which I barely recognize as a science.

A few years ago, I saw an article that said that all these problems prove that science itself is flawed. But that's ridiculous, and I think people who want to write off science entirely are making a huge mistake. The lesson is not that science is flawed but that science is difficult, very difficult. And scientific fields themselves need to fix some of these problems by changing how publishing and funding work.

But I think the bigger problem is the media and how it communicates science to the public. The vast majority of media are absolutely awful in this regard. They assign general reporters to science stories instead of using science reporters. And they seize on attention-getting headlines that make unsupported or spurious claims. Check out this great story to see how the transfer of scientific knowledge to the public is so easily fucked up.

But it's not just the "bad media" that is at fault. Check out the work by this reporter at the New York Times. Every week, for years, she has published a column about a recent scientific study having to do with physical health. She's a science reporter, so she knows what she's doing. She always adds disclaimers to her articles about sample size and the need to confirm the findings with more studies. But there's no editorial judgment here. There's no thought that maybe the conclusions of a single study with a small sample size should not be communicated to the public. There's no concept that the paper is serving its readers poorly by telling them what a study on "muscle confusion" exercises shows if that study only involves 21 people. Even the "good media" often does a poor job of reporting science. And that not only leads to misunderstandings among the public. It also means the public eventually loses trust in science.

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#1853

Post by Onderhond » August 14th, 2020, 8:45 pm

Fine post blocho!

I remember the chocolate story, but wasn't it more aimed at proving scientific media is poor and untrustworthy? (wasn't really aimed at the public I think, though in the end it did reach the public).

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#1854

Post by maxwelldeux » August 14th, 2020, 9:39 pm

blocho wrote:
August 14th, 2020, 7:33 pm
A few years ago, I saw an article that said that all these problems prove that science itself is flawed. But that's ridiculous, and I think people who want to write off science entirely are making a huge mistake. The lesson is not that science is flawed but that science is difficult, very difficult. And scientific fields themselves need to fix some of these problems by changing how publishing and funding work.

But I think the bigger problem is the media and how it communicates science to the public. The vast majority of media are absolutely awful in this regard. They assign general reporters to science stories instead of using science reporters. And they seize on attention-getting headlines that make unsupported or spurious claims. Check out this great story to see how the transfer of scientific knowledge to the public is so easily fucked up.
Yeah, the whole "And scientific fields themselves need to fix some of these problems by changing how publishing and funding work." bit is quite a bit of an understatement. How articles are published (why is everything behind a god-damned paywall?!?), how the tenure system works, the choice of editors for the journals, the disconnect between science and reality, who gets what funding, the overcommercialization of funding, the over/under reliance on grand theories, etc. An academic circle jerk would be an apt term to describe much of it.

And I agree that scientific reporting is bad - I'm relatively familiar science vs. reporting on it and how to read between the lines, and every now and again you see good reporting done, or at least reporting on quality robust scientific studies. But when you live in a sea of 10000 boys crying "wolf" 10000 times each, it's hard to spot the one time there's an actual wolf there.

But I would argue that it's a failure of the educational system to properly prepare people to be responsible consumers and skeptics of science. You need to understand things like "things take time" - expectations for a robust scientific literature on a topic don't emerge from a vacuum, so you have to be patient and let science catch up. You need to know what questions you can ask - vague high-minded theoretical questions sound really great in movies about college, but really don't help. You need to understand consequences of errors - if I wear a mask and they don't stop COVID, I might look silly for a few minutes; if I don't wear a mask and masks are effective, I might kill my wife and I. You need to understand practical and ethical limitations of science, especially if it involves humans/animals - you can certainly design a study to test the effect of mask-wearing on COVID transmission rates, but good luck with the IRB on "there's a 50-50 chance people will catch COVID, and a bunch of people are going to die, but will you approve this study?" You need to understand "smoking gun" studies typically can't exist. You need to understand generalization of findings. I could go on. But because, generally speaking, huge swaths of people are completely scientifically illiterate, you have to look at the reasons why they're that way, and I can't find someone to blame more than the educational system.

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#1855

Post by Onderhond » August 14th, 2020, 10:02 pm

maxwelldeux wrote:
August 14th, 2020, 9:39 pm
But because, generally speaking, huge swaths of people are completely scientifically illiterate, you have to look at the reasons why they're that way, and I can't find someone to blame more than the educational system.
That and the way humans are wired. All kinds of tough biases that are virtually impossible to overcome (like confirmation bias), heuristics that eventually trip us up, loss of adaptability as we age ... education can surely smooth over some of the problems, but it can't solve the problem all by itself.

I mean, just in my lifetime, I've had to adapt from dealing with opinions of my direct environment (at most, my fellow countrymen - but only indirectly, through the occasional media coverage) to dealing with potentially every single person in the world directly. No way education could've prepared me for that. No surprise that several defence mechanisms are kicking in quite violently all of a sudden.

maxwelldeux wrote:
August 14th, 2020, 9:39 pm
You need to understand consequences of errors - if I wear a mask and they don't stop COVID, I might look silly for a few minutes; if I don't wear a mask and masks are effective, I might kill my wife and I.
Well, you forgot the third option - what is mishandling a mask is worse than not wearing one?

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#1856

Post by blocho » August 25th, 2020, 6:53 am

Today is exactly six months since Jiro started this topic. Half a year later, we have an official and incorrect total of ~177k dead in the United States (the actual total is between 210k and 220k) and a disgustingly, howlingly wrong worldwide estimate of ~800k dead (nobody can say the real number, but double or triple certainly seems possible).

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#1857

Post by maxwelldeux » August 25th, 2020, 5:26 pm

blocho wrote:
August 25th, 2020, 6:53 am
Today is exactly six months since Jiro started this topic. Half a year later, we have an official and incorrect total of ~177k dead in the United States (the actual total is between 210k and 220k) and a disgustingly, howlingly wrong worldwide estimate of ~800k dead (nobody can say the real number, but double or triple certainly seems possible).
And the nominee for the most depressing post of the month goes to...

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#1858

Post by xianjiro » August 26th, 2020, 12:01 am

and the beat goes on ...

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#1859

Post by OldAle1 » August 26th, 2020, 12:19 am

maxwelldeux wrote:
August 25th, 2020, 5:26 pm
blocho wrote:
August 25th, 2020, 6:53 am
Today is exactly six months since Jiro started this topic. Half a year later, we have an official and incorrect total of ~177k dead in the United States (the actual total is between 210k and 220k) and a disgustingly, howlingly wrong worldwide estimate of ~800k dead (nobody can say the real number, but double or triple certainly seems possible).
And the nominee for the most depressing post of the month goes to...
Pretty sure I could beat it without trying too hard. Maybe tomorrow I'll give a few observations, for the nihilists in the audience.

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#1860

Post by Kublai Khan » August 26th, 2020, 12:21 am

maxwelldeux wrote:
August 25th, 2020, 5:26 pm
blocho wrote:
August 25th, 2020, 6:53 am
Today is exactly six months since Jiro started this topic. Half a year later, we have an official and incorrect total of ~177k dead in the United States (the actual total is between 210k and 220k) and a disgustingly, howlingly wrong worldwide estimate of ~800k dead (nobody can say the real number, but double or triple certainly seems possible).
And the nominee for the most depressing post of the month goes to...
Usain Bolt is reported to have caught coronavirus. :(
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#1861

Post by xianjiro » August 26th, 2020, 12:25 am

https://www.texmed.org/uploadedFiles/Cu ... _FINAL.pdf

Doctor rate Covid risks for given activities.

btw, original post for above PDF is here

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#1862

Post by maxwelldeux » August 26th, 2020, 1:12 am

OldAle1 wrote:
August 26th, 2020, 12:19 am
maxwelldeux wrote:
August 25th, 2020, 5:26 pm
blocho wrote:
August 25th, 2020, 6:53 am
Today is exactly six months since Jiro started this topic. Half a year later, we have an official and incorrect total of ~177k dead in the United States (the actual total is between 210k and 220k) and a disgustingly, howlingly wrong worldwide estimate of ~800k dead (nobody can say the real number, but double or triple certainly seems possible).
And the nominee for the most depressing post of the month goes to...
Pretty sure I could beat it without trying too hard. Maybe tomorrow I'll give a few observations, for the nihilists in the audience.
Just as an FYI, that wasn't a challenge. You don't have to accept it. :circle:

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#1863

Post by blocho » August 26th, 2020, 3:06 am

OldAle1 wrote:
August 26th, 2020, 12:19 am
maxwelldeux wrote:
August 25th, 2020, 5:26 pm
blocho wrote:
August 25th, 2020, 6:53 am
Today is exactly six months since Jiro started this topic. Half a year later, we have an official and incorrect total of ~177k dead in the United States (the actual total is between 210k and 220k) and a disgustingly, howlingly wrong worldwide estimate of ~800k dead (nobody can say the real number, but double or triple certainly seems possible).
And the nominee for the most depressing post of the month goes to...
Pretty sure I could beat it without trying too hard. Maybe tomorrow I'll give a few observations, for the nihilists in the audience.
I actually wrote a longer initial post that was much, much more pessimistic and depressing. I wrote it at about 3 a.m. and then quickly erased most of it when I woke up the next morning. Sometimes it's best not to wallow in misery.

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#1864

Post by OldAle1 » August 26th, 2020, 4:49 pm

OK here's a little bit of my sense of things.

I went to our farmer's market on Saturday, as I have every weekend since late June. People are doing the right thing - social distancing, wearing masks - at pretty close to 100% rate. Beloit WI is overall a "liberal" town with about 35% minority demographic (close to the country's average) and a lot of poor people - a great percentage of them black - also like much of the country, but there's been a certain sense of racial brotherhood here a little beyond what I've experienced most places. It's rare that I've gone anywhere with large congregations of people where all of the couples or groups were same-race - lots of racial mixing, lots of minorities in positions of authority here, and it's been that way for decades. So while the city has lots of problems involving crime and poverty, it's always felt a bit "advanced" to me compared to some similar towns. And the farmer's market always feels good that way as well, despite a couple of MAGA hats seen this year (don't recall seeing very many at all over the last 4 years).

Then I drove out west of town because I'd heard there was a "new" farmer's market set up for those who couldn't get booths at the regular one because of distancing guidelines. OK, I'll check it out; turns out it had no stated mask requirement (despite the state's mandate) and people were milling around almost entirely un-masked. And LOTS of red hats and red t-shirts - I didn't go up close to find out but I can guess. And about a dozen Trump/Pence signs over the 15 miles or so west of the city - and NO Biden/Harris signs (ok, maybe they're not ready yet?). Many more Trump bumper stickers now than I remember 4 years ago.

Point in all of this is that from what I can see there is a great deal of anger at the mask mandates, and growing anger at the BLM protests and "rioting and looting". I am getting more and more the sense that - and I realize this flies in the face of current national polling - Trump's base is more ginned up and excited than ever, they WILL come out to vote no matter what, he hasn't really lost that many from 2016 - and he may have gained as many new voters - and I just don't see the enthusiasm there for Biden, in great part because he doesn't know how to unite the disparate strands of the Democratic coalition - particularly the left and the Obama/Trump voters. And Trump will get far more minority voters than he should because guess what? It's not just white conservative Christians who are easily misled simpletons who will vote against their own interests. Plenty of (older, mostly) Black, Hispanic, Asian, LGBTQ, Jewish, etc voters will respond to the law and order thing, or are more motivated by their religious conservative roots than by any progressive ideas. Not huge numbers, but it could be enough to turn the tide.

So I think he has a good chance of actually winning, and even if he doesn't, he will still be in office a year from now. He's not going to leave, and he's going to do everything he can to stay, and he'll succeed, because the alternative is full-scale civil war which he'd be happy to see, but Biden will be unwilling to allow happen.

And COVID is just going to keep getting worse, keep killing more people, keep killing the economy, and it's all Biden and Obama's and Fauci's and China's and Mexico's etc etc fault, and large numbers of Americans will keep believing that shit. And we will REALLY have some rioting and violence in this country, until he actually starts to suppress dissent the way his master does it, and I don't doubt that will start happening by early next year if not just after the election.

So I frankly see little or no hope for this country to escape from the virus or violence and depression. I think far too many people are too stupid, uneducated, and gullible, or - like me - apathetic, weak and cowardly. And I think FAUX in particular, but a good chunk of the rest of the media as well including the NYT and CNN, have either equivocated over DJT, or outright supported his lies, because ratings and $$$$.

"In response to 'where is your mask?' I say 'I prefer to wear a smile, thank you;" - from a Facebook post by one of my cousins, who is in his 70s and has plenty of health concerns. If he represented just 5-10% of this country's attitudes I wouldn't be concerned, but it's more like 30-50%. This will never be under control as long as we have the same leadership, and I have very, very little doubt that we will have no change - and whether he "wins" or just continues to lead through fiat, the military, etc, I think DJT is going to get even more unhinged and anit-science, anti-rational, and he's going to pull a large chunk of the country with him. Which means ultimately the whole country, because we can't separate the way the south tried to 150 years ago.

So there's my liberal-left-wing-paranoid view. I REALLY hope I'm wrong, but I believed Trump was going to win as soon as he got the nomination in 2016 and I was sadly right there.
Last edited by OldAle1 on August 26th, 2020, 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#1865

Post by blocho » August 26th, 2020, 7:08 pm

Wow. And I thought I was pessimistic. In my original post, before I erased most of it, I also predicted outbreaks of widespread violence after the election. But that feels like a conversation for another thread.

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#1866

Post by OldAle1 » August 26th, 2020, 7:51 pm

It's good to expect the worst - anything else will feel like a relief. But yeah, that's as far as I can go in this thread - I realize it's already deeply political but then absolutely everything is political to begin with, and in American over the past 4 years that's especially true. Facts and science have no real meaning anymore (if they ever did) to a good chunk of the country. Some of my relatives are apparently working on putting together a "virtual prayer circle" to wish the virus away...


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#1868

Post by maxwelldeux » August 26th, 2020, 10:28 pm

OldAle1 wrote:
August 26th, 2020, 7:51 pm
It's good to expect the worst - anything else will feel like a relief. But yeah, that's as far as I can go in this thread - I realize it's already deeply political but then absolutely everything is political to begin with, and in American over the past 4 years that's especially true. Facts and science have no real meaning anymore (if they ever did) to a good chunk of the country. Some of my relatives are apparently working on putting together a "virtual prayer circle" to wish the virus away...
I'm quoting this instead of your long post, but yeah. I don't really disagree with anything you stated above. I'm terrified to leave my house. I live in weird red pocket in a blue region. I hate it. I miss the good ol' days when these absolute fucking morons were at least quiet morons.


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#1870

Post by Armoreska » September 1st, 2020, 9:12 pm

Image
currently working towards a vegan/free world + thru such film lists (besides TV): ANARCHISTS, 2010s bests, RW Fassbinder, Yasujiro Ozu, Eric Rohmer, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, 17+ sci-fi lists on watchlist, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo

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Post by xianjiro » September 2nd, 2020, 5:08 am

thanks!

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Post by Kublai Khan » September 4th, 2020, 3:08 am

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#1874

Post by Pretentious Hipster » September 4th, 2020, 12:50 pm

After my previous post and now this. Death to America tbh


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Post by OldAle1 » September 4th, 2020, 3:55 pm

Pretentious Hipster wrote:
September 4th, 2020, 12:50 pm
After my previous post and now this. Death to America tbh
That's very hurtful. I mean, look, there are people here who are not fundamentalist Christians, neo-Traditionalists, racists, misogynists, Nazis and other anti-semites, KKK members, homophobes, TERFs, gun nuts, FAUX and OANN viewers, Republicans, libertarians, devotees of Limbaugh or Alex Jones, billionaires, anti-abotion activists, Tea Party members, Birthers, Truthers, anti-vaxxers, Flat Earthers, MRAs, lazy, cowardly, apathetic assholes who don't contribute anything positive to the world (that's me!) or other variations of the Proudly Ignorant and Illiterate. There are plenty of Very Fine People here as our current leader might say, and to those half-dozen or so Americans I think you owe an apology.

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#1876

Post by Armoreska » September 4th, 2020, 5:23 pm

OldAle1 wrote:
September 4th, 2020, 3:55 pm
libertarians
lib caps, voluntaryists or "supporters of the US Libertarian Party", and objectivists.

not simply libertarians
Image
currently working towards a vegan/free world + thru such film lists (besides TV): ANARCHISTS, 2010s bests, RW Fassbinder, Yasujiro Ozu, Eric Rohmer, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, 17+ sci-fi lists on watchlist, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo

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#1877

Post by OldAle1 » September 4th, 2020, 5:28 pm

Armoreska wrote:
September 4th, 2020, 5:23 pm
OldAle1 wrote:
September 4th, 2020, 3:55 pm
libertarians
lib caps, voluntaryists or "supporters of the US Libertarian Party", and objectivists.

not simply libertarians
I was trying to keep it short. I could have just said "anybody who thinks Ayn Rand isn't pure evil" also.

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Post by Knaldskalle » September 4th, 2020, 5:53 pm

OldAle1 wrote:
September 4th, 2020, 3:55 pm
Pretentious Hipster wrote:
September 4th, 2020, 12:50 pm
After my previous post and now this. Death to America tbh
That's very hurtful. I mean, look, there are people here who are not fundamentalist Christians, neo-Traditionalists, racists, misogynists, Nazis and other anti-semites, KKK members, homophobes, TERFs, gun nuts, FAUX and OANN viewers, Republicans, libertarians, devotees of Limbaugh or Alex Jones, billionaires, anti-abotion activists, Tea Party members, Birthers, Truthers, anti-vaxxers, Flat Earthers, MRAs, lazy, cowardly, apathetic assholes who don't contribute anything positive to the world (that's me!) or other variations of the Proudly Ignorant and Illiterate. There are plenty of Very Fine People here as our current leader might say, and to those half-dozen or so Americans I think you owe an apology.
Half-dozen? Who are the remaining 4?
ImageImageImageImage

Please don't hurt yourself, talk to someone.

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#1879

Post by GruesomeTwosome » September 5th, 2020, 3:39 am

I’m to remember every man I've seen fall into a plate of spaghetti???

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Post by Armoreska » September 8th, 2020, 4:30 pm

Image
currently working towards a vegan/free world + thru such film lists (besides TV): ANARCHISTS, 2010s bests, RW Fassbinder, Yasujiro Ozu, Eric Rohmer, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, 17+ sci-fi lists on watchlist, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo

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