Welcome to the ICM Forum. If you have an account but have trouble logging in, or have other questions, see THIS THREAD.
Podcast: Talking Images (Episode 16 released September 13th)
Polls: Romance (Results), 1951 (Results), 500<400 (Sep 23rd), 2008 (Oct 4th)
Challenges: Animation, Silent Era, Russia/USSR
Film of the Week: L'inhumaine, October nominations (Sep 25th)
World Cup S4: QF Schedule, Match QFB: India vs Greece (Sep 20th), Match QFC: Germany vs Italy (Oct 1st)

Covid-19 quarantine zone (Not just a worldwide Flu!)

Post Reply

Got it?

Yeah, I got it and feel HORRIBLE.
0
No votes
Yes, I got it, but am doing okay.
1
2%
Yes, I had it but have recovered.
1
2%
I think I had it, but not sure.
5
8%
No, still waiting.
44
71%
No, I know I won't get it. Ever.
8
13%
What are we talking about? I live under a rock.
3
5%
 
Total votes: 62

User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 7937
Joined: Jun 17, 2015
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

Re: Covid-19 quarantine zone (Not just a worldwide Flu!)

#1801

Post by xianjiro » August 9th, 2020, 8:26 pm

joachimt wrote:
August 9th, 2020, 1:15 pm
Btw, I’m on vacation. We rented a house at a park. It’s just my wife and kids and it’s mostly not hard to keep distance from others, except for the supermarket.

The park also has houses for 8 people. The policy is you can rent such a house with a group of friends if you keep distance from people from another household. Yeah right. Next to us is such a group of 8 people aged about 20-24. Do they really think they will keep distance?
let's hope for a condom's distance, but that's about all I'm willing to bank on

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
sol can find me here

User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 7937
Joined: Jun 17, 2015
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#1802

Post by xianjiro » August 9th, 2020, 8:42 pm

Knaldskalle wrote:
August 9th, 2020, 5:33 pm
xianjiro wrote:
August 9th, 2020, 7:25 am
Got not problem with someone being personally "a mask-hating covid-denier" as long as they confine such beliefs to their own life and can separate that from how they do their job, but it's similar (in my mind) to Christian fundamentalists that are anti-gay or pro-life refusing to serve someone who is LGBTQ+ or pro-choice. However, it's super easy to understand why being against something would cause a serious crisis in trust. However, I always tend to prefer that people are up-front about this shit: nothing is worse than someone acting on their personal convictions, those actions affecting others, especially people unable to make a choice to do something different, and no one understanding the real reason why they are doing what they are doing.
See, I agree with your first point, he's free to think whatever he wants (and to express those thoughts) - but at the same time he's in charge of a whole lot of kids' safety in school. It's a bit like finding out your doctor doesn't believe in "germ theory" and thinks antibiotics don't work. S/He is of course free to believe anything, but do you really still want that person as your doctor, especially if you have an infection?
No. Of course I wouldn't. Therefore why I prefer a society where people are free to express themselves. If my doctor were to post that he was an anti-vaxxer or that no matter what, he wouldn't give his patients any future coronavirus vaccine (or that he thought it was better that people got immunity "the natural way"), I'd be thrilled to have that information and I'd start looking for a new doctor or at least be more confrontational on my own care, say, if I lived in a tiny outback town with only one doctor and couldn't get to a larger town for medical care.

I'll be honest, I've always been queasy about forced public accommodation. If I was looking for a wedding cake, the last place I'd want to go to is a Christian bakery! Who knows what they might do to the cake. For years and years we looked for signs before doing business somewhere - those little fish symbols where always handy and often the word "family" was code and we'd skip those places as well. (Gay people used "family" as code for LGBTQ, but never publicly facing.) The only issue was when we traveled or were in some small town, but luckily it was never worse than a snide remark, but I can think of a couple towns we just couldn't wait to see in the rear-view mirror.

I don't relish the prospects of the school board meeting and can't remember if that's something you will have to attend for any reason other than you care about the children. In this situation it's going to be unpleasant. I hope, somehow, the good people of your town can get past this. I'm suspicious the superintendent wasn't already wildly unpopular before this, so I don't expect it to be a pleasant meeting.

Any chance for a voluntary resignation, you know, because the individual has a better offer, say, in Georgia? :P

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
sol can find me here

User avatar
Knaldskalle
Moderator
Posts: 9927
Joined: May 09, 2011
Location: New Mexico, Trumpistan
Contact:

#1803

Post by Knaldskalle » August 9th, 2020, 8:59 pm

North Paulding High School in Georgia reporting nine cases of Covid-19, six among students, three among staff. I guess there was just nothing they could have done to prevent that...
ImageImageImageImage

Please don't hurt yourself, talk to someone.

User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 7937
Joined: Jun 17, 2015
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#1804

Post by xianjiro » August 9th, 2020, 9:12 pm

And we've heard about the 260 cases out of some Georgia sleep-over camp. Maybe Georgia's governor should replace the soon-to-be-confirmed R presidential nominee: they seem to have the same level of covid control going on.

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
sol can find me here

User avatar
Knaldskalle
Moderator
Posts: 9927
Joined: May 09, 2011
Location: New Mexico, Trumpistan
Contact:

#1805

Post by Knaldskalle » August 9th, 2020, 9:57 pm

xianjiro wrote:
August 9th, 2020, 8:42 pm
No. Of course I wouldn't. Therefore why I prefer a society where people are free to express themselves. If my doctor were to post that he was an anti-vaxxer or that no matter what, he wouldn't give his patients any future coronavirus vaccine (or that he thought it was better that people got immunity "the natural way"), I'd be thrilled to have that information and I'd start looking for a new doctor or at least be more confrontational on my own care, say, if I lived in a tiny outback town with only one doctor and couldn't get to a larger town for medical care.
Ah, gotcha! Sorry, I was a bit slow on the uptake there. Yes, I 100% agree, let the fools put on little red caps so we know who they are.
xianjiro wrote:
August 9th, 2020, 8:42 pm
I don't relish the prospects of the school board meeting and can't remember if that's something you will have to attend for any reason other than you care about the children. In this situation it's going to be unpleasant. I hope, somehow, the good people of your town can get past this. I'm suspicious the superintendent wasn't already wildly unpopular before this, so I don't expect it to be a pleasant meeting.

Any chance for a voluntary resignation, you know, because the individual has a better offer, say, in Georgia? :P
Well, among the people I talk to, he's wildly unpopular, but I'm not sure that it's the general opinion. I know he's lost support among at least part of the staff around him (I'm hearing rumors of people shuffling for position to succeed him) but he just received a 2-year extension of his contract a month or two ago by a board that was positively fawning over him. I suspect they'll give him some sort of reprimand, I doubt he'll be fired.
ImageImageImageImage

Please don't hurt yourself, talk to someone.

User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 7937
Joined: Jun 17, 2015
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#1806

Post by xianjiro » August 10th, 2020, 4:50 am

Knaldskalle wrote:
August 9th, 2020, 8:59 pm
North Paulding High School in Georgia reporting nine cases of Covid-19, six among students, three among staff. I guess there was just nothing they could have done to prevent that...
this just in - they're back to online learning "briefly" at that Georgia HS

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
sol can find me here

User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 7937
Joined: Jun 17, 2015
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#1807

Post by xianjiro » August 11th, 2020, 9:54 pm

So how did the meeting go last night Knalds? I see 800+ have been quarantined in N Georgia. Is this what reopening schools means, especially in urban/suburban areas?

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
sol can find me here

User avatar
Knaldskalle
Moderator
Posts: 9927
Joined: May 09, 2011
Location: New Mexico, Trumpistan
Contact:

#1808

Post by Knaldskalle » August 11th, 2020, 10:18 pm

xianjiro wrote:
August 11th, 2020, 9:54 pm
So how did the meeting go last night Knalds? I see 800+ have been quarantined in N Georgia. Is this what reopening schools means, especially in urban/suburban areas?
The board, after deliberating in closed session for more than 90 minutes decided to send the superintendent a "letter of concern", whatever the hell that means (free toilet paper, I guess). The rest of the meeting was a PR exercise with the board and the superintendent all extolling what a great job each other have done getting the schools ready for the kids to come back. It was slightly nauseating to be honest.
ImageImageImageImage

Please don't hurt yourself, talk to someone.

User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 7937
Joined: Jun 17, 2015
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#1809

Post by xianjiro » August 11th, 2020, 10:24 pm

Knaldskalle wrote:
August 11th, 2020, 10:18 pm
xianjiro wrote:
August 11th, 2020, 9:54 pm
So how did the meeting go last night Knalds? I see 800+ have been quarantined in N Georgia. Is this what reopening schools means, especially in urban/suburban areas?
The board, after deliberating in closed session for more than 90 minutes decided to send the superintendent a "letter of concern", whatever the hell that means (free toilet paper, I guess). The rest of the meeting was a PR exercise with the board and the superintendent all extolling what a great job each other have done getting the schools ready for the kids to come back. It was slightly nauseating to be honest.
though I'm certain not entirely surprising - but hey, it had to be better than Seattle's council meeting yesterday

So have you decided what you're going to do for your kids? Aren't they in a charter school?

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
sol can find me here

User avatar
Knaldskalle
Moderator
Posts: 9927
Joined: May 09, 2011
Location: New Mexico, Trumpistan
Contact:

#1810

Post by Knaldskalle » August 11th, 2020, 10:54 pm

xianjiro wrote:
August 11th, 2020, 10:24 pm
Knaldskalle wrote:
August 11th, 2020, 10:18 pm
xianjiro wrote:
August 11th, 2020, 9:54 pm
So how did the meeting go last night Knalds? I see 800+ have been quarantined in N Georgia. Is this what reopening schools means, especially in urban/suburban areas?
The board, after deliberating in closed session for more than 90 minutes decided to send the superintendent a "letter of concern", whatever the hell that means (free toilet paper, I guess). The rest of the meeting was a PR exercise with the board and the superintendent all extolling what a great job each other have done getting the schools ready for the kids to come back. It was slightly nauseating to be honest.
though I'm certain not entirely surprising - but hey, it had to be better than Seattle's council meeting yesterday

So have you decided what you're going to do for your kids? Aren't they in a charter school?
Yes they are and I'm part of the leadership of that school, so I have a say in what happens at least in that one school. I've made no secret of my reticence to return kids to school. I'm just not sure that whatever preparations are made will be sufficient to ensure that kids don't spread it to teachers or bring it home to vulnerable family members. We have a lot of kids living with their grandparents or with family members who have medical conditions that put them in the high-risk category (diabetes, hypertension, obesity, asthma, cystic fibrosis, heart conditions etc.).

I'm, ironically, not quite as worried about how the kids will fare, they'll most likely survive with little to no lasting effects, but we can't say for sure (and there may be long term effect we don't know about yet). It's all a big experiment with our children and I'm very torn about whether we should return our kids or not. Fortunately, both our school and the district have allowed for families to choose to do online only for the year if that's what people want. We may choose to do so.

For now the entire state is in "online only" mode and the plan (subject to change) is that after Labor Day elementary school students will return to school in person, in a "hybrid model" with 2 days of in person learning and 3 days of online learning, with each class cut in half (so they're alternating which days are in-person, with Wednesday being used to disinfect the entire school). After the state assesses how well the return of elementary school kids is going they'll reopen middle school, evaluate that and then reopen high school. If you have to go back to school that's the most sensible approach I can think of, so I don't have a problem with the state's plan as such. I just fear that the governor will succumb to pressure to reopen prematurely. It all depends on what the number of new cases is doing. If the numbers are dropping and look to continue doing so, I can probably be persuaded to send them back, but if they're going up I'm less inclined to think so. Yeah, like I said, I'm torn. Which probably means that I shouldn't send them back, this really shouldn't be such a life and death decision.
ImageImageImageImage

Please don't hurt yourself, talk to someone.

User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 7937
Joined: Jun 17, 2015
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#1811

Post by xianjiro » August 11th, 2020, 11:06 pm

Knaldskalle wrote:
August 11th, 2020, 10:54 pm
Yes they are and I'm part of the leadership of that school, so I have a say in what happens at least in that one school. I've made no secret of my reticence to return kids to school. I'm just not sure that whatever preparations are made will be sufficient to ensure that kids don't spread it to teachers or bring it home to vulnerable family members. We have a lot of kids living with their grandparents or with family members who have medical conditions that put them in the high-risk category (diabetes, hypertension, obesity, asthma, cystic fibrosis, heart conditions etc.).

I'm, ironically, not quite as worried about how the kids will fare, they'll most likely survive with little to no lasting effects, but we can't say for sure (and there may be long term effect we don't know about yet). It's all a big experiment with our children and I'm very torn about whether we should return our kids or not. Fortunately, both our school and the district have allowed for families to choose to do online only for the year if that's what people want. We may choose to do so.

For now the entire state is in "online only" mode and the plan (subject to change) is that after Labor Day elementary school students will return to school in person, in a "hybrid model" with 2 days of in person learning and 3 days of online learning, with each class cut in half (so they're alternating which days are in-person, with Wednesday being used to disinfect the entire school). After the state assesses how well the return of elementary school kids is going they'll reopen middle school, evaluate that and then reopen high school. If you have to go back to school that's the most sensible approach I can think of, so I don't have a problem with the state's plan as such. I just fear that the governor will succumb to pressure to reopen prematurely. It all depends on what the number of new cases is doing. If the numbers are dropping and look to continue doing so, I can probably be persuaded to send them back, but if they're going up I'm less inclined to think so. Yeah, like I said, I'm torn. Which probably means that I shouldn't send them back, this really shouldn't be such a life and death decision.
Yeah, I'm with you on all that. The one thing is we know just how quickly we can go from "hey, looks like we're past the worst of this" to "Oh shit!" I'm just so frustrated with the communal impatience. We need to prioritize what matters most and figure out a way to do that right then worry about things like (forgive me) movie theatres and such

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
sol can find me here

User avatar
burneyfan
Donator
Posts: 6001
Joined: Jun 23, 2011
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Contact:

#1812

Post by burneyfan » August 11th, 2020, 11:13 pm

Our school just released its plan today; everyone will be online only starting Sept. 16, and then they will slowly phase in the handful of special education students (those that spend most of their time outside of a general classroom and need a lot of onsite assistance). It doesn't look like my kids will be headed to any sort of hybrid model until February at the earliest.

User avatar
mightysparks
Site Admin
Posts: 30871
Joined: May 05, 2011
Location: Perth, WA, Australia
Contact:

#1813

Post by mightysparks » August 12th, 2020, 12:38 am

Last week at uni (first week back) they were making us wipe down our work areas before leaving class. This week they’ve ditched it because they’ve already ran out of wipes lol. We still don’t have any cases but after the random appearance of new cases in New Zealand after 100 days who knows what will happen.
"I do not always know what I want, but I do know what I don't want." - Stanley Kubrick

iCM | IMDb | LastFM | TSZDT

Image

User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 7937
Joined: Jun 17, 2015
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#1814

Post by xianjiro » August 12th, 2020, 1:00 am

I'm waiting for them to figure out what happened in NZ - either silent community transmission or someone coming into the country. I think understanding what happened there will be very informative.

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
sol can find me here

User avatar
Knaldskalle
Moderator
Posts: 9927
Joined: May 09, 2011
Location: New Mexico, Trumpistan
Contact:

#1815

Post by Knaldskalle » August 12th, 2020, 1:39 am

mightysparks wrote:
August 12th, 2020, 12:38 am
Last week at uni (first week back) they were making us wipe down our work areas before leaving class. This week they’ve ditched it because they’ve already ran out of wipes lol.
:lol:

FWIW, it appears that person to object to person spread is minimal, it is apparently mostly direct person to person spread.
ImageImageImageImage

Please don't hurt yourself, talk to someone.

User avatar
Knaldskalle
Moderator
Posts: 9927
Joined: May 09, 2011
Location: New Mexico, Trumpistan
Contact:

#1816

Post by Knaldskalle » August 12th, 2020, 2:05 am

burneyfan wrote:
August 11th, 2020, 11:13 pm
Our school just released its plan today; everyone will be online only starting Sept. 16, and then they will slowly phase in the handful of special education students (those that spend most of their time outside of a general classroom and need a lot of onsite assistance). It doesn't look like my kids will be headed to any sort of hybrid model until February at the earliest.
I would be more comfortable with that sort of timeline, sending kids back in person in a month seems a little early, but I guess it depends on the numbers and whether they're going up or down.
ImageImageImageImage

Please don't hurt yourself, talk to someone.

User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 7937
Joined: Jun 17, 2015
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#1817

Post by xianjiro » August 12th, 2020, 3:08 am

Knaldskalle wrote:
August 12th, 2020, 1:39 am
mightysparks wrote:
August 12th, 2020, 12:38 am
Last week at uni (first week back) they were making us wipe down our work areas before leaving class. This week they’ve ditched it because they’ve already ran out of wipes lol.
:lol:

FWIW, it appears that person to object to person spread is minimal, it is apparently mostly direct person to person spread.
Yeah, I'm really ready to back away from quarantining grocery and library items at this point. I'm still a little more queasy about the mail since who knows how it's been handled. (I like my postman but wouldn't ask him to cook or clean for me.) But the one caveat is, I still tend to wash my hands after touching things that have been handled by others, just to be cautious, since I might rub my eyes or something. I try to generally think of my home as "safe" and that's the best way to keep it that way.

This is just like advice related to mask wearing has changed and become a bit more nuanced. I probably wouldn't buy a can of soda and just drink out of it since I'd have no idea if someone could have sneezed all over it an hour before. But I'm not in the habit of rubbing bags of chips/crisps or canned soup against my face.

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
sol can find me here

User avatar
Kublai Khan
Posts: 1149
Joined: Nov 09, 2014
Location: Sarasota, FL
Contact:

#1818

Post by Kublai Khan » August 12th, 2020, 3:28 am

At my school, we're still prepping to have students start on Monday 8/17. Just teachers and paraprofessionals are in schools and support centers now.

That said, there's already been four cases with others exposed.

https://www.bradenton.com/news/coronavi ... 78277.html
Owner of three platinums:
  • FilmTotaal top 100
  • IMDb's 1980s Top 50
  • IMDb's Animation Top 50


User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 4847
Joined: Dec 23, 2012
Contact:

#1820

Post by Onderhond » August 12th, 2020, 10:44 pm

Kinda funny that he writes about 50/50 pro and con, but then goes on to say there's no longer a debate.

On the other hand, I do wish experts were a bit more realistic when discussing masks. I don't doubt their efficiency when used properly, but that's simply not a reality. If you look at the rules for correctly putting on and handling your mask, then look at what people do with them in real life, I think it's fair to question is there's really a net gain. If anyone has decent articles on this, do share please.

User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 7937
Joined: Jun 17, 2015
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#1821

Post by xianjiro » August 13th, 2020, 1:02 am

You mean a decent article about the net gain from half-wearing a disposable mask for the 137th time? ha ha ha

Asshole drivers don't understand things like yellow/red lights and stop signs - might as well save a bundle and just get rid of them too while we're at it.

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
sol can find me here

User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 4847
Joined: Dec 23, 2012
Contact:

#1822

Post by Onderhond » August 13th, 2020, 7:27 am

Well, I'll definitely need more than a poor analogy.

User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 7937
Joined: Jun 17, 2015
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#1823

Post by xianjiro » August 13th, 2020, 9:38 am

I'm not sure if you were just trying to be insulting or what, but the point is clear: it doesn't matter what the most effective way is and what 'rules' or guidelines are promulgated, people are going to do what people are going to do. Maybe you should just ring up Fauci's and get data from them? Or, you're in Brussels, there has to be a CDC/WHO/NHS equivalent, surely they can supply whatever it is you need and expect to get from people on a film board.

Sorry, but I live by a stop sign and probably half do what we call a California stop (rolling - it's also called a yield in some places and we have signs for that action as well). I can't tell you how many times I've watched drivers blow right through that stop sign - no break lights, no effort to slow down. I've also nearly been hit many times.

The rule is clear. Come to a complete stop. It's simple. It saves lives, especially in high-pedestrian use zones. Especially where kids live (funny, there are actually children in a residential neighborhood).

It doesn't matter what the right way to wear a mask is: people will get it wrong. I'm sure they can spend time researching the effectiveness of the various ways to wear a mask, the various ways to put on a mask, the various types of facial hair under a mask, the various ways people take masks off, the various ways to "clean" reusable masks, etc. Each with its own controlled, double-blind experiment so that we can know the percentage difference in Covid infection between, say a one-handed removal from an ear strap and a one-handed removal from the middle of the mask surface and a two-handed removal from both ear straps ...

Or they can provide their best suggestions and then research vaccines and work on contact tracing.

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
sol can find me here

User avatar
sebby
Posts: 6453
Joined: Jul 04, 2011
Contact:

#1824

Post by sebby » August 13th, 2020, 9:45 am

I think I dumped a dozen+ studies on mask-wearing done over the years earlier in this thread. If you're actually interested and not just trolling, onderhond, you can go take a look.

User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 7937
Joined: Jun 17, 2015
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#1825

Post by xianjiro » August 13th, 2020, 10:16 am

sebby wrote:
August 13th, 2020, 9:45 am
I think I dumped a dozen+ studies on mask-wearing done over the years earlier in this thread. If you're actually interested and not just trolling, onderhond, you can go take a look.
yeah, kind of wondered if he wasn't just trying to force us to prove that mask wearing was useless

Low-cost measurement of facemask efficacy for filtering expelled droplets during speech
View ORCID ProfileEmma P. Fischer1, View ORCID ProfileMartin C. Fischer2,3,*, View ORCID ProfileDavid Grass2, View ORCID ProfileIsaac Henrion4, View ORCID ProfileWarren S. Warren2,3,5,6 and Eric Westman7
See all authors and affiliations
Science Advances 07 Aug 2020:
https://advances.sciencemag.org/content ... dv.abd3083

“Filtration Efficiency of Hospital Face Mask Alternatives Available for Use During the COVID-19 Pandemic” by Emily E. Sickbert-Bennett, PhD, MS; James M. Samet, PhD, MPH; Phillip W. Clapp, PhD; Hao Chen, PhD; Jon Berntsen, PhD; Kirby L. Zeman, PhD; Haiyan Tong, MD, PhD; David J. Weber, MD, MPH and William D. Bennett, PhD, 11 August 2020, JAMA Internal Medicine.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamain ... le/2769443

Universal Masking in the United States
The Role of Mandates, Health Education, and the CDC
Lawrence O. Gostin, JD1; I. Glenn Cohen, JD2; Jeffrey P. Koplan, MD, MPH3
Author Affiliations Article Information
JAMA. Published online August 10, 2020.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/f ... le/2769440

Original Investigation Global Health
July 29, 2020
Comparison of Face-Touching Behaviors Before and During the Coronavirus Disease 2019 Pandemic
Yong-Jian Chen, MD1; Gang Qin, MD1,2; Jie Chen, MD1; et al
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamane ... le/2768767

JAMA Patient Page
April 17, 2020
Masks and Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
Angel N. Desai, MD, MPH1; David M. Aronoff, MD2
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/f ... le/2764955

Amazing! There's this thing called Google and you can search publications from all over the planet on any topic you can think of.
Wonder if they've heard of if in Belgium.
Maybe it's blocked behind the Great Chocolate Firewall.


It's melting! Melting! Oh, what a world!

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
sol can find me here

User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 4847
Joined: Dec 23, 2012
Contact:

#1826

Post by Onderhond » August 13th, 2020, 10:32 am

xianjiro wrote:
August 13th, 2020, 9:38 am
I'm not sure if you were just trying to be insulting or what
:shrug:

I asked an honest (and in my opinion fair) question, it would've been nice if I had just gotten a normal reply to that.
sebby wrote:
August 13th, 2020, 9:45 am
I think I dumped a dozen+ studies on mask-wearing done over the years earlier in this thread. If you're actually interested and not just trolling, onderhond, you can go take a look.
Myeah, hence why I asked for (more layman) articles. I'm not really equipped to process scientific studies on my own, nor do I have the time to wade through them all (while also looking for studies that might contradict these results - I mean, the Google file you linked is "Scientific Papers Supporting Mask-Wearing - July 5 2020"). I just noticed that a lot of the scientific discourse to the general public talks from a purely theoretical point of view and ignores the way people realistically use their masks.

Would be nice to just get a question to my answer without snark (not you) or without a month of getting submerged into scientific discourse and various studies on the subject.

User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 7937
Joined: Jun 17, 2015
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#1827

Post by xianjiro » August 13th, 2020, 11:14 am

Onderhond wrote:
August 13th, 2020, 10:32 am
xianjiro wrote:
August 13th, 2020, 9:38 am
I'm not sure if you were just trying to be insulting or what
:shrug:

I asked an honest (and in my opinion fair) question, it would've been nice if I had just gotten a normal reply to that.
Okay, I'll be nice. Given all the nasty anti-mask rhetoric we're dealing with, by now it's not uncommon for people to be short-tempered. I want more information is a delay tactic.

You said, "If you look at the rules for correctly putting on and handling your mask, then look at what people do with them in real life, I think it's fair to question is there's really a net gain." You may be right, but at this point, I don't think it matters. Florida and Georgia have no universal mask requirements but Texas does. If I'd have seen something comparing transmission rates in between those states (especially Texas and Florida), I'd likely have posted it. However, I'm not paid to do that research nor am I qualified to. Additionally, how good would a simple comparison of positive test results be between the two? If that's what you want, you can track it down. But again, other than doing a controlled study, an answer to your question isn't exactly information that is going to be available. And what about the Georgia high school we've mentioned repeatedly? Estimate is 10% wearing masks - the pictures were viral - you decide. 800+ quarantined.

However, if Greg Abbott is convinced, if Fauci is convinced that mask wearing helps slow transmission and clearly doing nothing doesn't, then all things kept equal, the mask mandate makes sense. That some people don't get it right is immaterial.

You brought up how poorly people use masks - while waiting for a half hour in the hospital yesterday, an eight year old had her mask hanging under her chin. It was too big, disposable, and looked like she's first started wearing it on 24 July (mask mandate day). I get your point, but unable to point to an 'appropriate' article, I gave you my best analogy. Stop signs save lives. Masks save lives. But people will fuck up both. Thus, should we ignore both? It really seems pretty simple to me. Thus why I felt it was less of an honest question and calling it a "poor analogy" clearly seemed to lean towards outright insult.

I know I've had a similar style questions though I've asked a bit differently. Usually I mention what work I've done towards the answer I seek - let's say I'm looking for the 1906 Australian Kelly Gang film. I'd mention where I've searched, that the file on YouTube is dead (don't believe that is currently true, but let's pretend), etc BEFORE I ask people to find it for me. You're intelligent, motivated, have an Internet connection, capable (but with a slightly contrarian attitude). Is it that far-fetched that your question wouldn't seem honest, especially given the state of mask discourse? For me, that's rhetorical at this point, but clearly Sebby also was inclined to wonder.

Does that help?

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
sol can find me here

User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 7937
Joined: Jun 17, 2015
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#1828

Post by xianjiro » August 13th, 2020, 11:15 am

PS: your post said nothing about layman, but that was lobbed at Sebby

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
sol can find me here

User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 4847
Joined: Dec 23, 2012
Contact:

#1829

Post by Onderhond » August 13th, 2020, 11:51 am

xianjiro wrote:
August 13th, 2020, 11:14 am
Okay, I'll be nice. Given all the nasty anti-mask rhetoric we're dealing with
Well, this is an international forum, not an American forum. I know every single topic over there becomes this extremely polarized left <-> right issue, but please try to distance yourself from that when speaking with non-US people.
xianjiro wrote:
August 13th, 2020, 11:14 am
However, if Greg Abbott is convinced, if Fauci is convinced that mask wearing helps slow transmission and clearly doing nothing doesn't, then all things kept equal, the mask mandate makes sense. That some people don't get it right is immaterial.
I don't know Abbott or Fauci well enough, I do know that there's been some critique on how our "crisis cells" are organized (with too many theoretical scientists and not enough people with a background in human sciences). Some of the rules here have been criticized for not being realistic enough and for being only feasible in a strict scientific vacuum.

While I have a great respect for science and scientists, I also realize the trouble they have to communicate with the rest of the population. It's not the first time badly communicated studies have done more harm than good, so there comes a point where their view alone isn't going to cut it anymore. Again, this critique/worry is getting more widespread here and it's not about left or right. I also think it's fair to worry about that, which is why it would be nice to see a certified person put those worries to rest.
xianjiro wrote:
August 13th, 2020, 11:14 am
Stop signs save lives. Masks save lives. But people will fuck up both. Thus, should we ignore both? It really seems pretty simple to me.
Well, people get lessons in traffic regulation, violating it will get them punished and it's been around from the day they were born. 6 months ago 99% of Belgium would've laughed at wearing masks outside, people are absolutely not accustomed to wearing them and you can abuse your mask however you want without punishment. So no, as an analogy, I think it's very poor and not relevant.
xianjiro wrote:
August 13th, 2020, 11:14 am
You're intelligent, motivated, have an Internet connection, capable (but with a slightly contrarian attitude).
I'd say that I'm just about smart enough to know that doing this research by myself isn't going to give me acceptable results. I don't know enough about scientific studies, I have a problem with statistical implications, I know science has a problem with reproducibility and peer reviews and I don't have the sources to find a balanced overview of studies. I'd rather have an expert give me a proper overview of the situation than DIY science & research.

So either the effect of people mishandling their masks is so small that scientists don't bother to mention it (which is what I hope to find out), or they're just pushing masks because it makes sense in a theoretical vacuum, which is a bit worrisome, especially when these uncertainties aren't communicated properly.

User avatar
peeptoad
Posts: 2257
Joined: Feb 04, 2017
Contact:

#1830

Post by peeptoad » August 13th, 2020, 12:21 pm

I could give an anecdotal account (spanning approximately 15 years) of how masks protect in ABSL 2 & 3 since I have been working in those areas for the last 15 years. And I probably have not handled my mask properly 100% of the time either for various reasons (livestock animals smashing into me unexpectedly among others).
I'm just grateful I live in NE and not FL.

User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 4847
Joined: Dec 23, 2012
Contact:

#1831

Post by Onderhond » August 13th, 2020, 12:31 pm

I have no doubt whatsoever masks work, especially in more scientific/medical environments, where people are also more accustomed to the do's and don't of protective clothing.

Our current reality though is that we're in the 6th day of a heatwave (34°C and up) and we've been forced to wear masks whenever we go outside (thought yesterday they finally eased up that rule). That's a whole lot of extra sweaty business in an area that's already quite touch-prone AND the prime spot of COVID infection. If you see someone on the street reaching underneath to wipe of the sweat, or touch the outside of his mask to try and get some of the sweat away ... well.


User avatar
peeptoad
Posts: 2257
Joined: Feb 04, 2017
Contact:

#1833

Post by peeptoad » August 13th, 2020, 12:35 pm

Onderhond wrote:
August 13th, 2020, 12:31 pm
I have no doubt whatsoever masks work, especially in more scientific/medical environments, where people are also more accustomed to the do's and don't of protective clothing.

Our current reality though is that we're in the 6th day of a heatwave (34°C and up) and we've been forced to wear masks whenever we go outside (thought yesterday they finally eased up that rule). That's a whole lot of extra sweaty business in an area that's already quite touch-prone AND the prime spot of COVID infection. If you see someone on the street reaching underneath to wipe of the sweat, or touch the outside of his mask to try and get some of the sweat away ... well.
Yes, I hear you and understand. There are many variables with the general public using them. The fact of the matter is, with the amount of compliance problems I have had to deal with over the years, people in research do not always wear them properly (either by accident or purposely). There is the occasional exposure where someone must go to occupational health, but largely we keep safe by way of using masks and other PPE. And hand washing. That's a biggie. Matter of fact that might be more important than masks and people don't do that (or properly) either.

User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 4847
Joined: Dec 23, 2012
Contact:

#1834

Post by Onderhond » August 13th, 2020, 12:40 pm

I think my main gripe with the masks is that people pay less attention to the social distancing aspect.

Again, would be comforting to read that the effect of the mask (greatly) outweighs spread through misuse of masks. If anyone finds a detailed but general populace level article, do share!

User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 32218
Joined: Feb 16, 2012
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#1835

Post by joachimt » August 13th, 2020, 12:54 pm

Onderhond wrote:
August 13th, 2020, 12:40 pm
I think my main gripe with the masks is that people pay less attention to the social distancing aspect.
I wore a mask in a supermarket today for the first time and my experience was that people actually backed off. The past few days that I went to that supermarket people didn't follow the direction signs at all, they got close, etc... Now that I wore a mask I could finally go through the store without getting someone close. Wearing a mask seems to be a sign for people that says "back off, I don't want you close to me".
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"

User avatar
Onderhond
Posts: 4847
Joined: Dec 23, 2012
Contact:

#1836

Post by Onderhond » August 13th, 2020, 12:58 pm

joachimt wrote:
August 13th, 2020, 12:54 pm
I wore a mask in a supermarket today for the first time and my experience was that people actually backed off. The past few days that I went to that supermarket people didn't follow the direction signs at all, they got close, etc... Now that I wore a mask I could finally go through the store without getting someone close. Wearing a mask seems to be a sign for people that says "back off, I don't want you close to me".
Yeah, but there's a big difference in how BE/NL have been dealing with this. Masks are still somewhat of an oddity over there. Here, people have really gotten used to them (and not by choice, we get fines for not wearing masks). When everyone is wearing them, it's an entirely different story.

User avatar
joachimt
Donator
Posts: 32218
Joined: Feb 16, 2012
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#1837

Post by joachimt » August 13th, 2020, 3:36 pm

Onderhond wrote:
August 13th, 2020, 12:58 pm
joachimt wrote:
August 13th, 2020, 12:54 pm
I wore a mask in a supermarket today for the first time and my experience was that people actually backed off. The past few days that I went to that supermarket people didn't follow the direction signs at all, they got close, etc... Now that I wore a mask I could finally go through the store without getting someone close. Wearing a mask seems to be a sign for people that says "back off, I don't want you close to me".
Yeah, but there's a big difference in how BE/NL have been dealing with this. Masks are still somewhat of an oddity over there. Here, people have really gotten used to them (and not by choice, we get fines for not wearing masks). When everyone is wearing them, it's an entirely different story.
I think you're right about that. Here you are indeed an oddity if you wear a mask in a store. It's only mandatory in a few areas in Amsterdam and Rotterdam. I'm in a little village at the moment and I hardly see masks here.

Another thing I noticed here compared to my own town, is the number of older people who don't really pay attention at all. In a shopping area for example, I often can't walk on the right side of the path, because a few older ladies are blocking it, chitchatting about the weather. Two days ago I visited the Sint Jan church in Gouda. There was a group of about 10 tourists around 75 years old with a (younger) guide. None of them paid any attention to any Covid-rules, standing together (the guide as well), blocking hallways, etc... About 30 minutes later I came across the same group in a small street. I just couldn't pass them at all, because they were standing on the complete street looking at something special.

In the news you read mostly about young people not following the rules, but I think it's not an age thing. It's just that with young people the groups are often larger.
ICM-profile
Fergenaprido: "I find your OCD to be adorable, J"

matthewscott8
Donator
Posts: 1988
Joined: May 13, 2015
Contact:

#1838

Post by matthewscott8 » August 13th, 2020, 5:27 pm

I went for a haircut yesterday at a 2 man barbershop. The owner was on his own and I was like what's happened to the other guy? So it was all nice and safe he had a lot of PPE on. But he told me the other guy quit because he refused to wear a mask as "covid is a hoax". Now working for Amazon apparently.

User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 7937
Joined: Jun 17, 2015
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#1839

Post by xianjiro » August 13th, 2020, 11:11 pm

Onderhond wrote:
August 13th, 2020, 12:31 pm
Our current reality though is that we're in the 6th day of a heatwave (34°C and up) and we've been forced to wear masks whenever we go outside (thought yesterday they finally eased up that rule). That's a whole lot of extra sweaty business in an area that's already quite touch-prone AND the prime spot of COVID infection. If you see someone on the street reaching underneath to wipe of the sweat, or touch the outside of his mask to try and get some of the sweat away ... well.
Okay, now I think we're getting somewhere - we started in a very vague place (and I gave an equally vague analogy that expressed how I thought about the situation - clearly your mileage varies)

This concern is VERY valid and now I'm with you. It would also translate very well to Florida (where summer is normally 34C and up with 99.99.99% humidity - funny quote from some silly movie I saw once)

However, I've no clue. None. So this is where I'd suggest you doing that research to find the answer you need.

(See, you did have an ulterior motive: it was just very different from the one I've had to deal with repeatedly. :lol: )
Onderhond wrote:
August 13th, 2020, 11:51 am

Well, this is an international forum, not an American forum. I know every single topic over there becomes this extremely polarized left <-> right issue, but please try to distance yourself from that when speaking with non-US people.
I try, but sometimes we are affected by our emotions - our responses are colored by our sub-conscious thoughts

As for science and communicating with the masses: I'd say this is the failure of political leadership, not science. For instance, a certain leader of a large industrial power is incapable of communicating meaningfully so lots of others have to step in and fill the void. Scientists talk and the media tries to pre-digest for the masses. Everything is subjected to the political spin cycle. It's no wonder it's a muddle.

Of course politicians aren't particularly well adapted to talking to scientists, so you get a translator. Where I live, we have the state epidemiologist who is tasked with understanding the science and communicating it to political leadership. Sometimes they ask him to communicate directly with the people.

In the case of sweaty people wearing masks, that system should address this concern. I hope that makes sense - I don't want to go on and on about this since I certainly can't speak to it. Kublai Khan probably can since he's in Florida.

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
sol can find me here

User avatar
xianjiro
Donator
Posts: 7937
Joined: Jun 17, 2015
Location: Kakistani Left Coast
Contact:

#1840

Post by xianjiro » August 13th, 2020, 11:17 pm

Onderhond wrote:
August 13th, 2020, 12:40 pm
I think my main gripe with the masks is that people pay less attention to the social distancing aspect.
Agreed, but then again people do lots of stuff for all sorts of reasons - there's little we can do about that.

Maybe you need a mask like these:

Image

I'd suggest #2, #8, or #11

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
sol can find me here

Post Reply