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Are you anti-natalist?

Two-parter: 1) Are you anti-natalist? 2) Is life a gift or a burden one doesn't ask for?

1) No! I'm pro-natalist. Big families are better!
3
4%
1) No! People should do whatever they want.
19
23%
1) I'm not sure. No idea. Don't care.
2
2%
1) Yes! But I think couples should limit the number of children the have.
4
5%
1) Yes! To be honest, I wish we could start shrinking the planet's population.
16
19%
2) Life is a gift and everyone should make the most of it.
16
19%
2) I'm not sure. No idea. Don't care.
10
12%
2) Life is a burden that no one asks for.
13
16%
 
Total votes: 83

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Armoreska
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#81

Post by Armoreska »

Onderhond wrote: May 20th, 2020, 8:04 am I have no real moral reservations about suicide, but that's some poor argumentation ...
I'm not surprised anymore, but care to elaborate?
What's your moral framework anyway?
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#82

Post by Onderhond »

I believe in broad personal freedom, as long as it doesn't trespass on other people's freedom.

The problem with suicide is that it does. It may require better structural solutions for people who want to commit suicide, but for now that's not a reality. People who commit suicide create a mess that a lot of other people need to clean up/deal with.

It's also weird to compare it to other ways people are "allowed" to harm themselves, as nothing is as final and impactful as suicide for a person and his immediate environment.
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#83

Post by Armoreska »

I imagine most people agree with your first statement, me included. (Except I would include an even broader community than simply other people)

I don't believe that a person should live for the sake of others to an extent that he/she should suffer existence just because his/her death may be a temporary inconvenience to a few people.

Considering that death is inevitable (+ in a lot of cases uncalled for, unlike suicide), a suicide will not change the fact that others have to deal with your death.

Existence may also be a net burden on others, so removing it may end up increasing freedom for others. People cannot quantify this, so looking at how suicide in general affects others from a utilitarian perspective seems like a bad argument.

The only way I can see this argument working is if the immediate environment is given priority and has a particular configuration. For example, if a person who decides to commit suicide has biological or adopted children or animals in their care, and this person's ceasing to exist would put them in a tough situation with no backup option, or they will become a burden on someone else.
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#84

Post by Onderhond »

Armoreska wrote: May 20th, 2020, 9:16 am I don't believe that a person should live for the sake of others to an extent that he/she should suffer existence just because his/her death may be a temporary inconvenience to a few people.
A person should not live for the sake of others ... but shouldn't cause inconvenience to others either. When faced with the choice, I think you should always shoulder your own burdens. That's also a part of individualism.
Armoreska wrote: May 20th, 2020, 9:16 amConsidering that death is inevitable (+ in a lot of cases uncalled for, unlike suicide), a suicide will not change the fact that others have to deal with your death.
True, in the case of many suicides though, that means people who aren't trained for it/aren't expecting it. Often it means family members. There's a difference between someone dying in a retirement home and hanging yourself to be found by your kin.
Armoreska wrote: May 20th, 2020, 9:16 amExistence may also be a net burden on others, so removing it may end up increasing freedom for others. People cannot quantify this, so looking at how suicide in general affects others from a utilitarian perspective seems like a bad argument.
If you are a burden to someone alive, it is up to the other person to deal with that. Either he shoulders it or cuts you off, that is his decision. Also, I don't want to be burdened with other people's crap simply because their burden is net bigger than my inconvenience.

What I wouldn't mind is "facilities" for people who want to commit suicide, so it can be handled gracefully/respectfully. I'm not very versed in the psychological aspects of wanting to commit suicide, but I assume so psychological/physiological evaluation would be necessary.
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#85

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

Armoreska wrote: May 20th, 2020, 9:16 am I don't believe that a person should live for the sake of others to an extent that he/she should suffer existence just because his/her death may be a temporary inconvenience to a few people.
True, but this is not the purpose of suicide prevention. Suicide prevention is about trying to get people to see options to live for themselves and be happy with their lives, not to guilt them into suffering for the sake of others. That video has a really myopic view of both what drives people to consider suicide and what drives suicide prevention strategies.

I'm not denying people with those views exist there are many of them, but they are not, for the most part, the people actually doing the hard work of counselling suicidal people.

I also want to add that weak and myopic arguments like those in that video are exactly those used by anti suicide freedom advocates. They love to paint those who want assisted suicide to be legal as bloodthirsty or indifferent to death and as fundamentally anti-life, as opposed to the reality that most people who support legal assisted suicide, like myself, are people who recognize the complexity of life situations and that while suicidal people need counseling to make sure they consider all their options and the gravity of the possible decision that they also have a right to determine, ultimately, what's best for them. For the vast majority of suicidal people suicide is not the best option for them, but to deny that for a small percentage of people it is, is as foolish as that video which pretends to argue edgily that actually suicide is good.
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#86

Post by Armoreska »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: May 20th, 2020, 6:45 pm
Armoreska wrote: May 20th, 2020, 9:16 am I don't believe that a person should live for the sake of others to an extent that he/she should suffer existence just because his/her death may be a temporary inconvenience to a few people.
True, but this is not the purpose of suicide prevention. Suicide prevention is about trying to get people to see options to live for themselves and be happy with their lives, not to guilt them into suffering for the sake of others. That video has a really myopic view of both what drives people to consider suicide and what drives suicide prevention strategies.

I'm not denying people with those views exist there are many of them, but they are not, for the most part, the people actually doing the hard work of counselling suicidal people.

I also want to add that weak and myopic arguments like those in that video are exactly those used by anti suicide freedom advocates. They love to paint those who want assisted suicide to be legal as bloodthirsty or indifferent to death and as fundamentally anti-life, as opposed to the reality that most people who support legal assisted suicide, like myself, are people who recognize the complexity of life situations and that while suicidal people need counseling to make sure they consider all their options and the gravity of the possible decision that they also have a right to determine, ultimately, what's best for them. For the vast majority of suicidal people suicide is not the best option for them, but to deny that for a small percentage of people it is, is as foolish as that video which pretends to argue edgily that actually suicide is good.
I don't see it as "edgy" or "myopic". It's from the position of pessimism/negative utilitarianism/consequentialism.
Most people who may consider those arguments have an optimism bias or are simply too well off, so those will usually not work. As someone said, we live in a pro-suffering world.
Do people who are against abortions care to the same extent if those "saved" humans will have a good life? Do people who are against suicide care to the same extent if those "saved" humans will have a good life?
In individualist USA, I very much doubt it. Most people are happy with the system.

(The most downvoted comment thread on that video touches on the same points you brought up.)
In what way can suicide be the worst option? Are there credible statistics that show what % of people who got to live longer were eventually thankful for it/got a good outcome/regretted their suicide attempt? In other words, what share of suicides is due to disease and not desire? Doubt I'll find some.

The one way I can see suicide prevention be useful is if the method of suicide can leave the person injured and alive, therefore even worse off.

In the end, I'm probably in the critical minority, but I personally wouldn't want anyone to consult or save me, so I can only be against it. On the other hand, I'd feel more comfortable if there was a legal, affordable option to get assistance/assist others in quitting.

A few more myopic, negative videos on the topic
Spoiler

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#87

Post by Armoreska »

he or A. or Armo or any

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#88

Post by Kublai Khan »

Man.. Not really a fan of the Kialo format after checking it out. Feels like weak arguments are given equal weight with good arguments.
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#89

Post by Armoreska »

Kublai Khan wrote: June 17th, 2020, 10:56 pm Man.. Not really a fan of the Kialo format after checking it out. Feels like weak arguments are given equal weight with good arguments.
But who decides which are weak? Another person will think otherwise. You can discuss any argument or provide cons.
Of course it's not perfect but I wouldn't say I dislike it at all.

It's a bit...anarchist

Discuss Kialo here:
https://www.kialo.com/tags/Kialo
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#90

Post by Onderhond »

I like the platform in principle, but never really got into it.
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#91

Post by Kublai Khan »

Armoreska wrote: June 18th, 2020, 9:24 am
Kublai Khan wrote: June 17th, 2020, 10:56 pm Man.. Not really a fan of the Kialo format after checking it out. Feels like weak arguments are given equal weight with good arguments.
But who decides which are weak? Another person will think otherwise. You can discuss any argument or provide cons.
Of course it's not perfect but I wouldn't say I dislike it at all.

It's a bit...anarchist
Yeah, but anarchism isn't necessarily a good thing for debate. It means the opinions of fools are equal to the opinions of experts.
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#92

Post by Armoreska »

Kublai Khan wrote: June 19th, 2020, 3:25 am
Armoreska wrote: June 18th, 2020, 9:24 am
Kublai Khan wrote: June 17th, 2020, 10:56 pm Man.. Not really a fan of the Kialo format after checking it out. Feels like weak arguments are given equal weight with good arguments.
But who decides which are weak? Another person will think otherwise. You can discuss any argument or provide cons.
Of course it's not perfect but I wouldn't say I dislike it at all.

It's a bit...anarchist
Yeah, but anarchism isn't necessarily a good thing for debate. It means the opinions of fools are equal to the opinions of experts.
This must be where the rating system and the discussion on each thesis comes in.
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#93

Post by xianjiro »

Ran across this interesting tidbit on the BBC this morning:
Falling fertility rates mean nearly every country could have shrinking populations by the end of the century.

And 23 nations - including Spain and Japan - are expected to see their populations halve by 2100.

As a result, the researchers expect the number of people on the planet to peak at 9.7 billion around 2064, before falling down to 8.8 billion by the end of the century.
- source

While I find this 'interesting', I'm also inclined to remember all the population predictions in the late 70s and early 80s that said Mexico DF would be the largest city in the world long before now. Not disputing the general trend and it's pretty clear that some countries have stopped growing, but halving population by 2100? I'll believe it when I see it ... wait, I'll most likely have moved on to whatever comes next long before then. But hey, good luck to any of you still around! :thumbsup:

I'm also wondering if we'll have a post-coronavirus mini baby-boom :lol:
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#94

Post by Armoreska »

xianjiro wrote: July 15th, 2020, 6:40 pm But hey, good luck to any of you still around! :thumbsup:
They'll need it tehe
Interesting times we live in
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#95

Post by Armoreska »

rodo22 wrote: July 24th, 2020, 1:20 pm Not! I am pro natalist. Big families are better!
Thanks for voicing your opinion. Will make sure to steer clear. tehe
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#96

Post by Armoreska »

conversation btwn 2 of my favorite folks (which doesnt mean I agree with them on all points)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS2n7MgiFGE
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#97

Post by peeptoad »

peeptoad wrote: August 13th, 2019, 5:25 pm ...
Way too many people on this rock though; we need a plague or something objective to wipe half of us away.
Egads. I cursed us all.
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#98

Post by maxwelldeux »

peeptoad wrote: December 25th, 2020, 2:31 am
peeptoad wrote: August 13th, 2019, 5:25 pm ...
Way too many people on this rock though; we need a plague or something objective to wipe half of us away.
Egads. I cursed us all.
That's.... hilarious? :circle: :circle: :circle:
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#99

Post by Armoreska »

interview with a milder philosopher

btw almost done catching up with the whole podcast
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#100

Post by Armoreska »

The latest interview there is with Nina Paley
i found out she's a TERF

from
https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/sit ... the+blues/
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#101

Post by Armoreska »

I made a list for films recommended on r/antinatalism
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/movi ... armoreska/
(took me ages to search/read it all too)
Last edited by Armoreska on April 14th, 2021, 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#102

Post by peeptoad »

Not anti-natalist, but interesting on the potential impact of declining fertility. Maybe, sort of, fits here...

https://www.rand.org/blog/2021/04/an-ea ... demic.html
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#103

Post by xianjiro »

interesting. thanks! :cheers:
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Armoreska
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#104

Post by Armoreska »

the developed world is already under two births per woman. Less developed regions are trending in this direction.

The post-crisis optimism might return with a vengeance tho.
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currently working towards a vegan/free world + thru such film lists: GODARD, r/antinatalism recommends,..
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ANARCHISTS, ANIMAL RIGHTS, Assisted suicide, Existential films, SOCIALIST CINEMA (an amalgamation of lists), Feminist lists, various GSSRM lists (aka LGBTQ+), 2010s bests, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, mah huge sci-fi list, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
imaginary awards | youtube channels | complaint lounge | explain how big a fan of slavery you are here, ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1535 and here: ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4484
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yllow
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#105

Post by yllow »

Any way to re-open the poll?
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xianjiro
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#106

Post by xianjiro »

yllow wrote: April 15th, 2021, 2:44 pm Any way to re-open the poll?
It seems so, so I have. I'm guessing the maker of the OP and meds have such abilities. It also didn't seem to affect our current votes, but I took a snapshot just in case. When I added vaccines responses to our Covid poll, it toasted the prior results. Not sure if there was a better way to do that. Still learning with polls.

BTW, if someone wants to change their vote, that's an option as well. I left this poll open-ended for the time being.
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#107

Post by Armoreska »

Changed it. AN is now going from tied to slight majority.
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currently working towards a vegan/free world + thru such film lists: GODARD, r/antinatalism recommends,..
the rest
ANARCHISTS, ANIMAL RIGHTS, Assisted suicide, Existential films, SOCIALIST CINEMA (an amalgamation of lists), Feminist lists, various GSSRM lists (aka LGBTQ+), 2010s bests, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, mah huge sci-fi list, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
imaginary awards | youtube channels | complaint lounge | explain how big a fan of slavery you are here, ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1535 and here: ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4484
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#108

Post by Armoreska »

Is
(all of this will be a spoiler for a Frank Darabont movie though I didn't mention some crucial details)
Spoiler
Green Mile's ending - the fate of one of the characters to avoid spoiling who just in case - an assisted suicide? It would be somewhat of a spoiler to add it to that list (or is it?), so I'll put it on the AN list instead, since I saw it mentioned on reddit anyway. This is probably the first movie I saw with among any of those with those themes.
https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/c ... suffering/
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currently working towards a vegan/free world + thru such film lists: GODARD, r/antinatalism recommends,..
the rest
ANARCHISTS, ANIMAL RIGHTS, Assisted suicide, Existential films, SOCIALIST CINEMA (an amalgamation of lists), Feminist lists, various GSSRM lists (aka LGBTQ+), 2010s bests, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, mah huge sci-fi list, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
imaginary awards | youtube channels | complaint lounge | explain how big a fan of slavery you are here, ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1535 and here: ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4484
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#109

Post by yllow »

Thanks Xi, voted
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#110

Post by Armoreska »

The optimism is slightly winning again. The normalcy has been restored.
he or A. or Armo or any

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currently working towards a vegan/free world + thru such film lists: GODARD, r/antinatalism recommends,..
the rest
ANARCHISTS, ANIMAL RIGHTS, Assisted suicide, Existential films, SOCIALIST CINEMA (an amalgamation of lists), Feminist lists, various GSSRM lists (aka LGBTQ+), 2010s bests, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, mah huge sci-fi list, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
imaginary awards | youtube channels | complaint lounge | explain how big a fan of slavery you are here, ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1535 and here: ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4484
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#111

Post by Armoreska »

Here's an episode of Tosh.0 about antinatalism.
It's cringy but worth it.
https://we.tl/t-STdAE4RS4C

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5174968
Last edited by Armoreska on April 20th, 2021, 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
he or A. or Armo or any

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currently working towards a vegan/free world + thru such film lists: GODARD, r/antinatalism recommends,..
the rest
ANARCHISTS, ANIMAL RIGHTS, Assisted suicide, Existential films, SOCIALIST CINEMA (an amalgamation of lists), Feminist lists, various GSSRM lists (aka LGBTQ+), 2010s bests, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, mah huge sci-fi list, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
imaginary awards | youtube channels | complaint lounge | explain how big a fan of slavery you are here, ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1535 and here: ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4484
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#112

Post by Armoreska »

An art channel has made a video commenting on antinatalism (500K views)


The author has also commented on AN reddit here
https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/c ... ?context=3
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currently working towards a vegan/free world + thru such film lists: GODARD, r/antinatalism recommends,..
the rest
ANARCHISTS, ANIMAL RIGHTS, Assisted suicide, Existential films, SOCIALIST CINEMA (an amalgamation of lists), Feminist lists, various GSSRM lists (aka LGBTQ+), 2010s bests, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, mah huge sci-fi list, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
imaginary awards | youtube channels | complaint lounge | explain how big a fan of slavery you are here, ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1535 and here: ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4484
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#113

Post by yllow »

And 55000 likes
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#114

Post by Lammetje »

Billions of animals must be farmed and killed to feed our populations.
:facepalm:

25 minutes of video and the only time he mentions the suffering of any other species than ours, it's by stating that killing farm animals is necessary. We really have a long, long way to go.

Having said that, I'm glad he brought up the possibility of another intelligent life form evolving from a different species, in case mankind does become extinct. This is actually the main reason for me not be full-on anti-natalist at the moment.
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Armoreska
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#115

Post by Armoreska »

Lammetje wrote: April 20th, 2021, 1:08 pm Having said that, I'm glad he brought up the possibility of another intelligent life form evolving from a different species, in case mankind does become extinct. This is actually the main reason for me not be full-on anti-natalist at the moment.
I haven't seen the video yet, but this is one of the points that efilists make (which also creates a debate point on whether it'll be better without humans or humans should actually stay to help other species in some capacity or it's not ethical to create new humans for such a task and we should only try to influence those already born).
he or A. or Armo or any

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currently working towards a vegan/free world + thru such film lists: GODARD, r/antinatalism recommends,..
the rest
ANARCHISTS, ANIMAL RIGHTS, Assisted suicide, Existential films, SOCIALIST CINEMA (an amalgamation of lists), Feminist lists, various GSSRM lists (aka LGBTQ+), 2010s bests, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, mah huge sci-fi list, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
imaginary awards | youtube channels | complaint lounge | explain how big a fan of slavery you are here, ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1535 and here: ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4484
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#116

Post by Armoreska »

yllow wrote: April 20th, 2021, 1:00 pmAnd 55000 likes
Well that's about the most common number of likes then (views divided by 10)
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currently working towards a vegan/free world + thru such film lists: GODARD, r/antinatalism recommends,..
the rest
ANARCHISTS, ANIMAL RIGHTS, Assisted suicide, Existential films, SOCIALIST CINEMA (an amalgamation of lists), Feminist lists, various GSSRM lists (aka LGBTQ+), 2010s bests, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, mah huge sci-fi list, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
imaginary awards | youtube channels | complaint lounge | explain how big a fan of slavery you are here, ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1535 and here: ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4484
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#117

Post by yllow »

Oh I thought 10% was really good
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#118

Post by Armoreska »

I just checked a few random videos and I guess ur right. None are doing better than /10. I like almost everything I watch. How hard can it be?
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currently working towards a vegan/free world + thru such film lists: GODARD, r/antinatalism recommends,..
the rest
ANARCHISTS, ANIMAL RIGHTS, Assisted suicide, Existential films, SOCIALIST CINEMA (an amalgamation of lists), Feminist lists, various GSSRM lists (aka LGBTQ+), 2010s bests, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, mah huge sci-fi list, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
imaginary awards | youtube channels | complaint lounge | explain how big a fan of slavery you are here, ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1535 and here: ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4484
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#119

Post by yllow »

It’s not hard to do but I mostly don’t do it myself
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#120

Post by Armoreska »

Like a 3rd random encounter with an AN line in film within last 2 months
he or A. or Armo or any

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currently working towards a vegan/free world + thru such film lists: GODARD, r/antinatalism recommends,..
the rest
ANARCHISTS, ANIMAL RIGHTS, Assisted suicide, Existential films, SOCIALIST CINEMA (an amalgamation of lists), Feminist lists, various GSSRM lists (aka LGBTQ+), 2010s bests, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, mah huge sci-fi list, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
imaginary awards | youtube channels | complaint lounge | explain how big a fan of slavery you are here, ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1535 and here: ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4484
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