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Are you anti-natalist?

Two-parter: 1) Are you anti-natalist? 2) Is life a gift or a burden one doesn't ask for?

Poll ended at September 12th, 2019, 4:25 pm

1) No! I'm pro-natalist. Big families are better!
3
5%
1) No! People should do whatever they want.
13
20%
1) I'm not sure. No idea. Don't care.
2
3%
1) Yes! But I think couples should limit the number of children the have.
3
5%
1) Yes! To be honest, I wish we could start shrinking the planet's population.
13
20%
2) Life is a gift and everyone should make the most of it.
11
17%
2) I'm not sure. No idea. Don't care.
9
14%
2) Life is a burden that no one asks for.
11
17%
 
Total votes: 65

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xianjiro
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Re: Are you anti-natalist?

#41

Post by xianjiro » August 20th, 2019, 7:09 pm

So, just want to say that I'm not a proponent of only allowing certain groups of people to procreate - eugenics really give me the willies. But that said, we haven't really talked about unplanned births much yet. You know the situation - hopefully not personally - where a fun night, possibly fueled by drink or other recreational pharmaceuticals, leads to more one-on-one fun. There are a whole host of reasons why contraception doesn't happen and a few good reasons why the mother decides to have the baby. Some times this is a great thing for both parent and child.

But what about the lives of unwanted children?

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#42

Post by peeptoad » August 20th, 2019, 7:26 pm

xianjiro wrote:
August 20th, 2019, 7:09 pm
You know the situation ...
Yep. I was the product of one of those situations and abandoned at birth. Thankfully I was adopted by awesome, caring people.

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#43

Post by maxwelldeux » August 21st, 2019, 3:32 am

Coryn wrote:
August 20th, 2019, 10:14 am
Ps. I like to use 'littlekidlover' on dating sites. That way women always know what my priorities are.
:poshclap: :poshclap: :poshclap:

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#44

Post by mightysparks » August 21st, 2019, 3:41 am

Kublai Khan wrote:
August 20th, 2019, 6:53 pm
Yeah, fair point. I'm definitely approaching the topic from a male POV and am not taking into consideration that societal pressure is probably greater for women. Also, sorry about your mom, no offense intended but she sounds kinda crazy based on that anecdote.
Nah, she is crazy lol. My boyfriend has only met her a few times and while ago he was like 'I like your mum, she's nice, but she's crazy'. I didn't tell her about my boyfriend for some time because I was worried it would get worse, and I warned him about it, but luckily she doesn't harass him. She's definitely getting weirder as she gets older, especially with kids or pets etc. She has like 5 lorikeets she's rescued now and it's kind of creepy watching her with them. And yea, though she hassles my brother about giving her grandkids he definitely cops it less. Every time I see her, she somehow manages to bring up 'woe is me, I'm nearly 50 and not a grandparent' and I'm just like don't look at me, birth control is my religion.
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#45

Post by matthewscott8 » August 21st, 2019, 8:38 am

Kublai Khan wrote:
August 20th, 2019, 6:53 pm
It still seems weird to me. Like, we're generally all the result of a hetero coupling*. So we're all "fuck trophies". Why have a term specifically to insult current children simply because they happen to be born? It's as bad as any other type of insult bullying.

*maybe some exceptions like in-vitro?
I don't think anyone is using it to refer to the children directly, no-one's walking up to a kid and saying, "hey, how's it going eff trophy". It's clearly insensitive. There are definitely people who see their children as trophies, that's what it's a reference to (though still insensitive). Mostly I've seen dads who see children as trophies of their virility. However that attitude is definitely on the wane where I am in the UK, though particularly Indian people I know brag about it in that sense. I think a lot of time people use this language as a reflection of something bad that's happened to them. I mean I often wonder why the hell my dad had children, he seemed to see us as weights around his neck more than anything else. One of the weirdest things that ever happened to me is that he tried to persuade me not to apply to Oxford University, and then when I got in I found out he had been bragging about it at work. Sabotaging me at the same time as bragging about me, whilst it looks contradictory, and it was a pattern, actually is entirely consistent with an overwhelming ego and a trophy mentality. One of the reasons I felt I wanted kids at one point was as a correction, i.e. to do it properly and reset a trajectory.

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#46

Post by Lammetje » August 24th, 2019, 8:24 pm

I find every sound a baby makes repulsive. Just thinking about hearing that every day, having my freedom severely limited, being forced to talk about babies with other parents etc. etc. makes me want to slash my wrists. I also completely agree with Blocho about the problem with annoying kids in public spaces. Older (quiet) kids can be cute or funny from time to time though.

I guess I am anti-natalist. As pointed out by others, Europe (except Luxembourg :P) and countries as Japan and South Korea are not the problem. Anyone who can make a stop to the excessive breeding in countries like the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Benin and Uganda deserves a freaking medal.
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#47

Post by Armoreska » August 25th, 2019, 12:30 am

Lammetje wrote:
August 24th, 2019, 8:24 pm
I guess I am anti-natalist. As pointed out by others, Europe (except Luxembourg :P) and countries as Japan and South Korea are not the problem. Anyone who can make a stop to the excessive breeding in countries like the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Benin and Uganda deserves a freaking medal.
Ukraine proudly bottom 5. Looks like only 2 Baltic states are becoming roomier faster.
Russia oddly the most stable of all.

I like how Oman's water crisis apparently has no effect on the massive growth rate.

Edginess still has a narrow lead over normalcy in our poll
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#48

Post by mightysparks » August 25th, 2019, 3:42 am

Lammetje wrote:
August 24th, 2019, 8:24 pm
I find every sound a baby makes repulsive. Just thinking about hearing that every day, having my freedom severely limited, being forced to talk about babies with other parents etc. etc. makes me want to slash my wrists.
:poshclap:

I can go from super chill to homicidal just from a baby noise. I've started wearing headphones on my daily walks just because I couldn't handle the squeals, screams, cries, laughter and other nonsense from all the children around here. Every time I see people pushing prams or doing stuff with their kids down here, and groups of women standing around watching their kids, I feel so happy that will never be my life, it seems so suffocating. I can't imagine anything worse.
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#49

Post by Lammetje » August 25th, 2019, 7:24 am

mightysparks wrote:
August 25th, 2019, 3:42 am
Lammetje wrote:
August 24th, 2019, 8:24 pm
I find every sound a baby makes repulsive. Just thinking about hearing that every day, having my freedom severely limited, being forced to talk about babies with other parents etc. etc. makes me want to slash my wrists.
:poshclap:

I can go from super chill to homicidal just from a baby noise. I've started wearing headphones on my daily walks just because I couldn't handle the squeals, screams, cries, laughter and other nonsense from all the children around here. Every time I see people pushing prams or doing stuff with their kids down here, and groups of women standing around watching their kids, I feel so happy that will never be my life, it seems so suffocating. I can't imagine anything worse.
Oh yes, there have been many, many times when I thought to myself: I'm so happy I don't have children. :cheers: But the hallways in my apartment building are full of prams at times, so that's another way for the breeding part of the population to screw with the sane part of the population. :guns:
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#50

Post by Kublai Khan » August 25th, 2019, 5:38 pm

Yeah, that's the thing that bothers me. I'm totally happy if anti-natalist are happier without kids. I'm not pushing them to have kids and I agree that there shouldn't be any societal pressures to be different than what you want to be.

But the actively kid-hating people are creepy. Hating a certain class of people for just existing isn't a healthy or sane thing. Misanthropy isn't a sign of enlightenment.

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#51

Post by blocho » August 25th, 2019, 8:17 pm

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think most of the anti-natalists here (and I'm surprised to find myself in such good company -- in real life, people sometimes act like I'm a monster) are not making an argument against people but rather an argument against behavior. So with Lammetje's example, the problem is the behavior of some parents in inconveniencing the rest of us. Leaving baby carriages (or "prams") in the hallways is not a big deal, but it is annoying. If you have a baby carriage, put it in your apartment. I don't leave my bicycle in the apartment hallway, and if I did I think most people on my floor would justifiably ask me to change my behavior because I would be treating public space as if it were mine.

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#52

Post by xianjiro » August 26th, 2019, 12:18 am

Yeah, good points. It's the bad parents that ruin it for the rest of us! :P And Kublai makes a good point - it isn't right to 'hate' a class of people. In this case, it's a form of ageism, no?

And for the list of unattractive parenting behaviors - yelling. Today, the mom on the next property (who lost her infant to the care system for a few months when it toddled off across a busy intersection all on his own) returned to yelling, "(child's name) where are you?" And no, that's not the old, "Where are you? I'm gunna find you!" from hide and go seek. Yesterday it was, "Get in the fucking bathtub!"

It was so quiet when the baby wasn't around. And no, the child isn't the noisy one - yet. Poor kid.

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#53

Post by mightysparks » August 26th, 2019, 12:26 am

I agree with Blocho that generally ‘I hate kids’ means ‘I hate all the typical kid behaviours and things associated with them’. I hate noise, mess, people in my way, people harassing me, and people touching me without permission. Most of the time, kids tick all of these boxes. Old people and teenagers tick some of them often too and I’m not a fan of them either. Or you know, people in general. I don’t hate any of these ‘groups’ for existing, I just hate things negatively affecting me and that includes some screaming dribbling thing that runs into my path because it has no awareness of anything but itself. When my experience with a particular group of people is 99-100% the same, it’s difficult to not form an opinion about what it’s like to interact with that group. I don’t know why that’s creepy.
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#54

Post by blocho » August 26th, 2019, 3:27 am

Oh man, just two recent stories:

- Taking Metro-North last week, a mom in my car yelling at her child for 90 minutes straight, "Close your eyes and go to sleep." She must have yelled it at least 200 times. I have no idea what the child was doing. I imagine it must have been something a little annoying, but it was the mom who was disturbing everyone. I think I just need to go everywhere with headphones or earplugs.
- On the subway a month ago, and a man holding an infant sat down next to me. At one point, the baby touches my shoulder with her hand. No big deal. Dad says sorry. It's only five minutes later, when I'm getting off the subway, that I notice the baby had smeared spit-up on my shoulder. Dad saw it, but I didn't. I guess he thought "sorry" was enough and didn't think he needed to take any actual action when his baby put her vomit on me.

It's not the kids that are the problem. It's the crappy parents. And of course, the problems get worse in crowded public spaces like trains.

OK, I got myself worked up for nothing. Calm down, blocho.

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#55

Post by mightysparks » August 26th, 2019, 4:11 am

Yeah a lot of the time it’s bad parenting. The anger gets misplaced at the kid because it’s the one doing the annoying thing but the parents are the ones allowing or encouraging the bad behaviour. I was always very conscious of my environment and those around me as a kid though, when I see those ones around I’m totally fine with them being around.

I was at a self serve the other day and a toddler thing was a bit in my way but it was fine. The parent noticed, apologized and explained (nicely) to her kid to respect other people’s space or whatever. I was like yeah man that’s how you do it.
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#56

Post by xianjiro » August 26th, 2019, 7:43 am

We used to have a nice library in the neighborhood. It could be a bit noisy when the kids got out of school - teenagers mostly - they'd come to play video games either on the official computers or on their laptops and phones. Maybe the free wifi and lack of parental supervision were factors?

Then someone got the bright idea to redo the building. Sure, it needed serious work, but:

1) The front door faces the main playground in this part of the city.
2) They got rid ofrelocated to the other library (which has pitiful bus service) 80% of the adult books to the other library (which has pitiful bus service).
3) The use of space is basically, in descending order: meeting rooms and movement spaces, computers, kid's area.
4) Go in there in the middle of the day during summer and you'd swear you walked into the rowdiest school library ever.
5) Reference desk? What's a reference desk? (Neither library in the city has one now.)

I guess the new library is a big hit with parents, but I've yet to speak with anyone over 50 who likes it and mostly because "they got rid of the books!" though occasionally you hear "it's so noisy." Based on this building, the cranky old biddylibrarian shushing people for turning pages too aggressively is doing backflips in her grave.

But the parents are happy and since they are the majority, everyone else can get stuffed.

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
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