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#481

Post by Gershwin » February 7th, 2017, 10:22 pm

xianjiro on Feb 7 2017, 01:57:33 AM wrote:Buena suerte! y no bebes la agua... ;)
Is it really that bad? ^_^
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#482

Post by xianjiro » February 8th, 2017, 1:37 am

Gershwin on Feb 7 2017, 03:22:24 PM wrote:
xianjiro on Feb 7 2017, 01:57:33 AM wrote:Buena suerte! y no bebes la agua... ;)
Is it really that bad? ^_^
when I stayed with friends in their home (Mexican nationals), they had bottled water - both for drinking and brushing teeth - still managed to get parasites though, from food

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#483

Post by Knaldskalle » February 8th, 2017, 6:40 am

Here in New Mexico we have naturally occurring Arsenic in the drinking water. It goes through an expensive treatment plant that removes it. If only it would also remove the naturally occurring Uranium... <_< I've always been a staunch supporter of tap water, but I'm reconsidering, to be honest.
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#484

Post by RBG » February 8th, 2017, 6:48 am

i live in a mineral belt too. the water is so hard it's believed to cause gallstones and kidney stones. i don't drink it but i do use for cooking and brushing teeth. it leaves a white crusty ring in your glass
Last edited by RBG on February 8th, 2017, 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#485

Post by PUNQ » March 7th, 2017, 11:40 pm

My wife's father passed away today of a heart attack, so we're leaving for the Philippines tomorrow for 16 days to take part in the filipino style funeral (which means a week long mourning period with the body in a open coffin in the house so that all that want to pay their respects can come and say their goodbyes). Unsure how I'll spend my time as it's no pleasure trip. Mainly be on standby/support for my wife and the children, but there's going to be probable over a hundred family and friends there, so I'm a bit surplus. Who knows, maybe I'll be online more than usual to kill time (if the unstable internet over there holds up). Or if not, you know why I'm gone.
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#486

Post by joachimt » March 8th, 2017, 12:12 am

Sorry to hear that, PUNQ. Take care. :hug:
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#487

Post by AdamH » March 8th, 2017, 1:02 am

I hope everything goes ok PUNQ. Sorry about your news.

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#488

Post by xianjiro » March 8th, 2017, 2:31 am

our thoughts are with you PUNQ!

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#489

Post by Knaldskalle » March 8th, 2017, 4:30 am

RBG on Feb 7 2017, 11:48:27 PM wrote:i live in a mineral belt too. the water is so hard it's believed to cause gallstones and kidney stones. i don't drink it but i do use for cooking and brushing teeth. it leaves a white crusty ring in your glass
Where I grew up the water is 18-24°dH. 1°dH is equivalent to 17.8 ppm (which is one of the two US scales), so 320-427 ppm or 18.5-25 gpg ("grains per gallon", the other US scale). Water above 14 gpg is "extremely hard" according to this site. In Denmark that level is merely "hard"...

So yeah, I know all about scaling and having to clean your toilet/shower/kettle/coffeemaker with acetic acid. Not to mention the havoc it plays on water heaters and pipes.
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#490

Post by Knaldskalle » March 8th, 2017, 4:33 am

PUNQ on Mar 7 2017, 04:40:53 PM wrote:My wife's father passed away today of a heart attack, so we're leaving for the Philippines tomorrow for 16 days to take part in the filipino style funeral (which means a week long mourning period with the body in a open coffin in the house so that all that want to pay their respects can come and say their goodbyes). Unsure how I'll spend my time as it's no pleasure trip. Mainly be on standby/support for my wife and the children, but there's going to be probable over a hundred family and friends there, so I'm a bit surplus. Who knows, maybe I'll be online more than usual to kill time (if the unstable internet over there holds up). Or if not, you know why I'm gone.
I'm so sorry to hear that, PUNQ. I hope you have a safe trip and a safe return!
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#491

Post by Hunziker » March 8th, 2017, 5:13 am

Our sympathies to you and your family, PUNQ. Take care!
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#492

Post by metaller » March 8th, 2017, 11:08 am

Knaldskalle on Mar 7 2017, 09:30:02 PM wrote:
RBG on Feb 7 2017, 11:48:27 PM wrote:i live in a mineral belt too. the water is so hard it's believed to cause gallstones and kidney stones. i don't drink it but i do use for cooking and brushing teeth. it leaves a white crusty ring in your glass
Where I grew up the water is 18-24°dH. 1°dH is equivalent to 17.8 ppm (which is one of the two US scales), so 320-427 ppm or 18.5-25 gpg ("grains per gallon", the other US scale). Water above 14 gpg is "extremely hard" according to this site. In Denmark that level is merely "hard"...

So yeah, I know all about scaling and having to clean your toilet/shower/kettle/coffeemaker with acetic acid. Not to mention the havoc it plays on water heaters and pipes.
Officially the water here in my town of Regensburg is 18 dH. In reality it's likely even harder. I love my town, I love my apartment, but the extra mile you have to go to clean stuff is really annoying me.
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#493

Post by PUNQ » March 16th, 2017, 9:33 am

Thanks all! Got the funeral portion over. A filipino burial is a little different to those stiff quiet affairs we have in Norway. Firstly they bring the dead body home a full week, hosting a a 24/7 open house/street party so that everyone who wants to pay respect (or get free food) comes by. Me and the wife got assigned to night duty when the widow had her rest. Otherwise my mother-in-law would sit by the coffin placed in their small living room playing hostess acting out the death, catch up with the latest gossip or whatever chit chat suited for old friends/family. My father-in-law was a fairly ordinary man. Strict, but fair and focused on building a solid humble foundation for his large family. Didn't really have that many friends, so in honesty, most that came were there for the widow rather than him, though he was in no way disliked. It's just that she's the social one.

Naturally most of the hundreds (or we might have been close to 1,000 in total) that showed up were there for the ILLEGAL GAMBLING and outdoors DRINKING that went through all the way to morning daylight. Police came by but wouldn't touch this event. Don't know if they were payed, or they won't interfere in this old tradition, or if it was connections, but no drama. People could deal with my father-in-law's passing the way they wanted without anyone ruining it. The vibe was very happy in between the short hysterical outbursts that would distract people from their playing. It was so casual one forgets that there was a coffin right in front of you while you're eating and joking.

Being the only foreigner in the family I stuck out like a fish out of water. Doubt I was much help, but at least I was there for my wife and served as a distraction/light topic changer to the grief heavy talk that dominated. Didn't socialize much, I'm fairly shy and pinoys are definitely shy talking English with someone who speaks it fairly fluidly and with American or British dialects (depending on mood) compared to their filipino-English, so the only one that ended up talking to me was CRAZY 3rd COUSIN ELMER! He got increasingly insane the more he drank, and his moods kept swinging from wanting to make love to me to killing me. In his limited English he kept hinting he was a hitman, which might be true as he was missing his pinky finger. Don't know if the filipino mafia is inspired by the Yakuza or what? But mostly he was just a little brain damaged from a naughty life. My wife ordered the other in-laws the sit between us until he took the hint and left me alone. Must add that he behaved the last few days.

Yesterday was the actual burial. Started early with prayers at the home before they came for the casket. We ended up getting police escort to the church (thanks to connections) blocking the main road in their district stopping traffic completely for 10-15 minutes (and anyone who knows traffic in Metro Manila, it's cue heavy without funerals stopping it more). One would think this was a important man, but he was just a simple working man. Not even sure if he would have appreciated all that attention had he been alive. In church our 1 year old got a tantrum and I had to leave first row (sitting next to the widow) with him so he'd stop interrupting the priest for the hundreds that had showed up. Missed most of that running around the church yard being babysitter. Then we walked in the heavy heat from church to the grave yard. Took about 20 minutes in the striking sun on the hottest day so far. Once we got to the lowering of the coffin all hell broke out with the widows having to plow through the crowds blocking the view and passing out (two or three times the next 15 minutes as the various ceremonies were going on). Also my boy was sleeping and was abruptly woken by the onces handling the ceremony to take part. Don't know what he thought just awoken from his dreams finding himself dangling over lolo's casket for the tradition involving grandchildren!

From then on it was more relaxed with the kids playing and running on top of the surrounding graves while us adults where chilling taking it all in. After it was the perfect funeral dinner - at KFC! I had a Zinger. Yeah, funerals are a bit different in the Philippines then home in boring Norway.
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#494

Post by Gershwin » March 16th, 2017, 10:08 am

That must be the most interesting funeral story I've ever read, PUNQ.
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#495

Post by cinephage » March 16th, 2017, 11:00 am

Thanks for sharing your experience with such gusto, it was both interesting and fun.

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#496

Post by PUNQ » March 16th, 2017, 11:13 am

Let's just say life is never boring in the Philippines. Such a upside down culture compared to mine. That's why I love my experiences here. But being very Norwegian, a fairly introvert one at that, it can get a bit overwhelming at times. Glad I'm getting a rest day today. Though, going out later for food, so anything can happen... it's always that kind of climate here.

Staying at a in-laws of the in-laws house. They have a foreigner in the family so they have a fine house with foreigner size toilet with flush :thumbsup: The owners here are overly nice to me, so I'm mainly staying in my room. Can barely go outside the room before they come rushing to see in they can get me something. "No, I just want some water and I can get that myself." Almost reluctant to go to the toilet in fear of them rushing to wipe my ass. I just want to rest and listen to music after overdoing on the social activity a full week.
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#497

Post by Knaldskalle » March 16th, 2017, 3:30 pm

PUNQ on Mar 16 2017, 05:13:51 AM wrote:Let's just say life is never boring in the Philippines. Such a upside down culture compared to mine. That's why I love my experiences here. But being very Norwegian, a fairly introvert one at that, it can get a bit overwhelming at times. Glad I'm getting a rest day today. Though, going out later for food, so anything can happen... it's always that kind of climate here.

Staying at a in-laws of the in-laws house. They have a foreigner in the family so they have a fine house with foreigner size toilet with flush :thumbsup: The owners here are overly nice to me, so I'm mainly staying in my room. Can barely go outside the room before they come rushing to see in they can get me something. "No, I just want some water and I can get that myself." Almost reluctant to go to the toilet in fear of them rushing to wipe my ass. I just want to rest and listen to music after overdoing on the social activity a full week.
A friend of mine in Denmark is also married to a Philippine woman. He tells some hair-raising stories about his father-in-law. The Philippines seem to be bordering on social collapse all the time, especially when you compare it to the orderliness of Scandinavia.
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#498

Post by Hunziker » March 17th, 2017, 12:30 am

A very Dogme 95 story you've got there, PUNQ. I don't know why, but I can picture Thomas Vinterberg directing that funeral.
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#499

Post by RBG » March 17th, 2017, 12:42 am

scandanavians go in more for weddings i think
In the evening a man from Halland told them about a great wedding that he had been present at in Finnveden, among the wild people of Smaland. During the celebrations a dispute had broken out concerning a horse deal, and knives had quickly appeared; whereupon the bride and her attendant maidens had laughed delightedly and applauded and had encouraged the disputants to settle the matter there and then. However, when the bride, who belonged to a well-known local family, saw her uncle's eye gouged out by one of the bridegroom's kinsmen, she had seized a torch from the wall and hit the bridegroom over the head with it, so that his hair caught fire. One of the bridesmaids, with great presence of mind, had forced her petticoat over his head and twisted it tight, thereby saving his life, though he screamed fearfully and his head, when it appeared again, was burned black and raw. Meanwhile the fire had caught the straw on the floor, and eleven drunken or wounded men lying in it had been burned to death; so that this wedding was generally agreed to have been one of the best they had had for years in Finnveden, and one that would be long remembered. The bride and groom were now living in blissful happiness, though he had not been able to grow new hair to replace that which he had lost in the fire.
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#500

Post by PUNQ » March 17th, 2017, 1:43 pm

Knaldskalle on Mar 16 2017, 09:30:54 AM wrote:
PUNQ on Mar 16 2017, 05:13:51 AM wrote:Let's just say life is never boring in the Philippines. Such a upside down culture compared to mine. That's why I love my experiences here. But being very Norwegian, a fairly introvert one at that, it can get a bit overwhelming at times. Glad I'm getting a rest day today. Though, going out later for food, so anything can happen... it's always that kind of climate here.

Staying at a in-laws of the in-laws house. They have a foreigner in the family so they have a fine house with foreigner size toilet with flush :thumbsup: The owners here are overly nice to me, so I'm mainly staying in my room. Can barely go outside the room before they come rushing to see in they can get me something. "No, I just want some water and I can get that myself." Almost reluctant to go to the toilet in fear of them rushing to wipe my ass. I just want to rest and listen to music after overdoing on the social activity a full week.
A friend of mine in Denmark is also married to a Philippine woman. He tells some hair-raising stories about his father-in-law. The Philippines seem to be bordering on social collapse all the time, especially when you compare it to the orderliness of Scandinavia.
Philippines is impossible to make sense of. There is a heavy case Stockholm Syndrome, in the way that people are very accepting and good at dealing with hardship. Often humble and with a smile. Sort of a gallows humor, but in a different tone than the black-ish comedy we have at home. You hear so many shocking stories that you realize that it's us in Scandinavia that live a abnormal life with our 1st World "problems". In my 8 years traveling to this country I've experienced the Philippines from it's good and bad side. Life here is never predictable.

A good place for those with money. If you have none... don't move here. You won't make sense of the financial structure. Most of the money seems to come from abroad from the millions of filipinos working abroad, or from the business side of things, Chinese, Korean and Japan firms, I'm guessing using the place to launder their money/sink their profits from tax evasion. Don't think it's possible to make a longterm profit here with all the corruption and the low number of people with money. Plus as a foreigner, expect "Americano prices" unless you see the actual price for the service listed. When I first traveled here in 2008 it was a blind choice where my finger randomly landed on the the Philippines, so going here alone without the "street smarts", proper research or knowing anyone sure was a experience!
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#501

Post by monty » March 17th, 2017, 2:54 pm

So how do you feel Duterte's policies are received by the average Filipino? Have you noticed any death squads patrolling your in-laws' neighbourhood?

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#502

Post by Lonewolf2003 » March 17th, 2017, 4:53 pm

An interesting fun read indeed it was PUNQ

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#503

Post by PUNQ » March 18th, 2017, 10:45 am

monty on Mar 17 2017, 08:54:47 AM wrote:So how do you feel Duterte's policies are received by the average Filipino? Have you noticed any death squads patrolling your in-laws' neighbourhood?
For the most part positive. But then again filipinos usually deal with most horrific news with a smile. It's their defense mechanism. Duterte's methods might seem ruthless, but people are for the change he's bringing. Even I have noticed the gradual hardening of the people in recent years, and if one has followed local news you'd see the brutality of the drug world get crazier and more violent. What scare tactics the new president is using is mainly to restore that humble feeling in the filipino people. It's not like his "death squads" are patrolling the streets like a military regime. Actually I haven't seen a single cop from the drug division.

I know media, especially western media, have dubbed him the Donald Trump of the East, but I feel that's a unfair comparison just because he speaks from the gut. Sure he goes overboard sometimes, but that's usually when at the expense of other leaders talking out of their ass like the arrogance Obama and UN leader showed preaching from their 1st world pedestals without even doing a proper inquiry or talking to him directly on issues they were criticizing. A middle finger to Obama deserved (especially to his increasingly snobbish behavior towards the whole US/Philippines relationship at the end of his term, almost jeopardizing a century long alliance). Naturally I'm influenced coming from a pro-Duterte home. At the same time it's not just a war on drugs he's campaigning. It's dealing with all aspects of political hypocrisy and unfair behavior, perhaps most importantly as it relates to the government and official jobs like police, immigration and so forth, and the bad habits they've required after decades of increasing corrupt governments.

Since my visit last year, I've already seen a lot of improvements from official organizations. They don't dare to base their old operation on bribes in the same way as before and everything is moving more swiftly and professionally. It's not like everything is fixed, or ever can be, but it's a step in the right direction where the poor people finally see service and money benefiting them without the rich in power keeping them down and stealing it all. They are even getting payed their back-taxes from 2008 which the government never payed out! That's just one tiny example of how politics here is like a crazy soap opera.

To outsiders "Too-Dirty's" reign might seem absurd, especially if you base it on the one-dimensional focus from the media, but in this environment his policies makes sense. A fresh breath of common sense in a corrupt society. I'm not turning a blind eye that things might turn ugly, but for right now what he's doing is the right thing for the country and a large majority of the people are behind him, though perhaps not so many of the 3,000,000 drug addicts/criminals he's pursuing.
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#504

Post by monty » March 18th, 2017, 12:22 pm

Well, anyone would agree that fighting corruption and crime is a good thing. However, Duterte's policy of extrajudicial killings is a bit more than simple "scare tactics". If you think "things might turn ugly", I have news for you - they already have. Since his inauguration over 7,000 people have been killed by police and government-backed vigilantes. Duterte's campaign targets drug dealers and users ostensibly for arrest but in practice has been a campaign of extrajudicial execution in impoverished areas of Manila and other urban areas. Conveniently, while the poor get killed, drug users/criminals from the upper classes are left alone.
Duterte is a guy who's proudly admitted to personally killing criminal suspects while serving as mayor. And as he's explained in 2016, he did it "[j]ust to show to the guys [police] that if I can do it why can't you." This is a guy who's on record as saying "Hitler massacred three million Jews. Now, there are three million drug addicts. I’d be happy to slaughter them." In fact, even after becoming president Duterte has stated unequivocally that his anti-drug campaign would focus on killing drug dealers and users.
Do you really feel that his policies of incitement to violence and instigation of murder are what the Philippines need right now? Is slaughtering suspected drug users and criminals a justifiable means to an end? Can state sanctioned killings ever be a morally justifiable measure in getting rid of crime? Is suspending the right to due process ever ok? I say no but it seems you find it all "a fresh breath of common sense",right, PUNQ?
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#505

Post by PUNQ » March 18th, 2017, 2:43 pm

Please don't get me wrong. Killing is never a good thing and there is a lot of shit going on, but the drug world is cold and ugly in general. There is no way to deal with this in a perfect way. In a increasing multi-layered world the look on this issue is very black & white. What it comes down to is who do you protect? The law abiding victims of drug related crime or the criminals that make their life unsafe? For they ARE criminals. They KNOW they are criminals. They KNOW if they RUN they'll get KILLED. The general public has got to be protected, and that is the general feeling here and there is a acceptance about those consequences. Of course not from the criminals and the corrupt political opposition that let the drug related crime become such a problem in the first place.

The poor are the victims. Regardless. That's always the way. But follow acts of crime around the world and you'll find drugs as a cause, either by profit or by consequence, so what can one do to rid of the problem? I know us in the west take a very liberal view on drugs, while our own use in our safe little worlds directly sponsor the drug lords for shit to happen in other parts of the world. Philippines is one of those places where this shit is growing rapidly. And something has got to be done before this country becomes another Colombia, Mexico or any other largely poor place where drug related crimes is a way of life-until-death. There is no possible right way to deal with this kind of problem. Shit will happen. But who should control the shit? The government (with the majority of people behind it) or the drug world?

If Duterte has been part of a few of these anti-drugs operations. Probably. Very probable actually. If not, and even if he has, his continued hard talk is part of his scare tactics, that he means business. And he does. He wholeheartedly believes that drugs are the root to all evil. And for most part it is. As I said, it's not like cops are marching in the streets killing random addicts on the streets. They target all classes from barangay drug homes, sellers, local politicians (which is why the local elections has been postponed as so many of the local leaders are sponsored by drug lords), police generals, senators! The poor are of course in the majority, which is a shame. Squashed between a rock and a hard place.

Police have been loose on the trigger, which is giving this campaign a bad name. On orders, and sometimes not. Law enforcement is weird and sloppy here, always has been regardless of Duterte. Those 7,000 killed is probable a correct number. However, last I heard there wasn't as detailed record of police killings pre-Duterte. It's just that they call every police killing a extrajudicial killing nowadays. The police killed people in large numbers before Duterte too. There just wasn't a media campaign from the opposition selling that angle to the press. But naturally one must take into account that the police have been more active in general to beat down crime compared to before where the police were mostly payed off.
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#506

Post by monty » March 18th, 2017, 3:12 pm

Hehe, sounds to me like you've been too long in a pro-Duterte household. Do you really mean to defend the state's killing people suspected of using and dealing drugs? Is suspending due process fine? Do you actually feel this is a viable solution to the country's ills?

Wouldn't Duterte be wiser to support drug rehabilitation programs? Shouldn't Duterte have the police bring criminals into custody and then have them stand trial by jury rather than outright massacring them?
Shouldn't Duterte rather than giving the green light to mass killings instead be focusing on getting the criminal justice system back in working order? Shouldn't he set in motion investigations into corrupt judges, etc.?
Shouldn't he channel more resources into the penal system rather than bragging about killing crime suspects? Filipino prisons are in a state of total collapse - overcrowding, non-existent medical care and no programs for re-integrating prisoners back into society. Wouldn't fixing this be more productive?
How about Duterte channeling his energy into remedying all this instead of inciting and instigating a mindless nationwide killing spree?
Finally, how about Duterte fronting a policy of wealth redistribution instead of having the police and state sanctioned vigilantes killing the poor? Surely, everyone understands that one of the main sources of crime in the Philippines is the systemic inequalities?


But I guess you (and other Duterte fans) would be opposed to that as it's far better (and cheaper) to just kill all drug users (and any poor person that gets in the way) and be done with it. Criminals should of course meet the same fate as they're irredeemable vermin anyway. Sounds like a great place to live - if you're born rich, that is.


Btw, Duterte's policies are more than just simple "scare tactics".
In fact, he's on record as warning drug dealers in August 2016: My order is shoot to kill you. I don’t care about human rights, you better believe me.” He also praised the soaring body count of victims of police killings as proof of the “success” of his “war on drugs.” s
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#507

Post by PUNQ » March 18th, 2017, 4:14 pm

You've lived too long in a pro-active rich country :P Rehabilitation doesn't quite work when there is so few opportunities and you're poor living in a drug controlled part of town. Norway you can have a fairly normal life while being a regular user. Not so much in poor countries as you get used by everybody "above you". Rehabilitation centers are being built, but not nearly enough or fast enough while addicts that have reported themselves are stacked like sardines in prison. Seeing the footage of jails are shocking.

You are under the impression he's only going after the street dealers. He is not. It's just that it's that portion that gets media attention. EVERY aspect of the drug world is being targeted as it directly relates to the corruption of the government. They just arrested a high profile senator, a former Secretary of Justice and Chairperson of Human Rights(!!!), as a protector. Whether it's a political campaign towards one of the strongest voices of against Duterte or if the evidence is as strong as they indicate, remains to be seen. But Senator Manny Pacquiao has been working hard to have her arrested and removed from power, and do you really want to question Pacman's motives? Kidding aside, things are never as they seem here. Everyone is keeping a front. You can almost assume those working in the Justice department are the ones working against justice. You can almost assume those in immigration are the ones accusing innocents by conveniently finding bullets in their bags while assisting human trafficers in and out of the country. You could expect to wait all day at licensing organization unless you pay a little extra. That's been the climate here. Duterte is turning upside down on all that. Slowly, but with focus. Of course all that might be a front too, but right now there is a slight hope within the people that things are turning for the better.

Whether a aggressive war on drugs will work is questionable. But you can't put a blind eye to the drugs. You got to eliminate it as an option and take down all levels of the chain. As I said earlier. They KNOW they are criminals, and there are consequences. Brutal consequences. Question is if it's the elected leaders that'll make life miserable for the poor to try and solve a problem or if it's the drug allied poor should make the life miserable for the rest of the poor. There hasn't been any solution anywhere in the world to how to rightfully handle this.
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#508

Post by PUNQ » March 18th, 2017, 4:19 pm

monty on Mar 18 2017, 09:12:56 AM wrote:Btw, Duterte's policies are more than just simple "scare tactics".
In fact, he's on record as warning drug dealers in August 2016: My order is shoot to kill you. I don’t care about human rights, you better believe me.” He also praised the soaring body count of victims of police killings as proof of the “success” of his “war on drugs.” s
They are scare tactics, even if he follows up. He goes after criminals who knows they are criminals, that again knows he'll come after them. Why should he care about their human rights when the criminals don't care about the human rights of their victims? Again the question, who to protect? The law abiding citizens or the criminals threatening the lives of the law abiding citizens?
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#509

Post by Lonewolf2003 » March 18th, 2017, 4:24 pm

PUNQ on Mar 18 2017, 10:19:39 AM wrote:
monty on Mar 18 2017, 09:12:56 AM wrote:Btw, Duterte's policies are more than just simple "scare tactics".
In fact, he's on record as warning drug dealers in August 2016: My order is shoot to kill you. I don’t care about human rights, you better believe me.” He also praised the soaring body count of victims of police killings as proof of the “success” of his “war on drugs.” s
They are scare tactics, even if he follows up. He goes after criminals who knows they are criminals, that again knows he'll come after them. Why should he care about their human rights when the criminals don't care about the human rights of their victims? Again the question, who to protect? The law abiding citizens or the criminals threatening the lives of the law abiding citizens?
Both, thats the role of every decent goverment. It isn't it a or-or choice.
Seconldy you make it sound like the circumstances don't play a big part in people having to chose a criminal life and should be shot for that.
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#510

Post by monty » March 18th, 2017, 4:32 pm

You still haven't answered my question: Do you think it's ok for the state to kill
people suspected of using and dealing drugs? Is suspending due process ok? Hiding behind the argument that it's a poor country so it's fine bringing back the Middle Ages sounds dubious to say the least.
Seeking to eliminate drugs as an option by a wholescale massacring of suspected drug users and sellers is but an ultrapopulist message with no real hope of success. Getting in place a functioning criminal justice and penal system and working at eliminating/reducing poverty by promoting a massive wealth redistribution, on the other hand, would be a better way of tackling this issue.
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#511

Post by PUNQ » March 18th, 2017, 4:36 pm

Ideally, yes. But has being gentle with criminals in a poor country with few resources to help ever worked? Or is being too lenient in the war on drugs the reason for the violence that's escalated in South America and Mexico? I don't know. But it's very different to criticize from a country that functions and everybody has a chance, than talking to people in a poor country that doesn't function the way it should and nobody can trust anybody. Especially those in power (and that includes Duterte). One got to choose the lesser evil and hope it is less evil.

Edit to Monty: It's not so much if it's okay for a government to kill, than if it's okay for criminals to kill. Who'll be first to draw. If you follow the pattern of the criminal work here, a lot of it captured on CCTV, you can see things are brutal and cold with druggies going after people randomly executioner-style. It's not better the way a lot of the police have done, some police who expose themselves by being too trigger happy, as part of the drug gangs eliminating witnesses for their own involvement. One can dream of a peaceful solution, but nobody knows what that is. Again... lesser evil. At least this is a government that were elected to do just what they are doing... by a large majority.
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Post by monty » March 18th, 2017, 4:48 pm

Shouldn't the state hold itself to a higher standard than the criminals it's fighting? Shouldn't there be any rule of law, any due process, any equality before the law or any justice for all? How can a state lay claim to any legitimacy at all if it kills its citizen as it pleases?
Is it really true to say that the police killing suspected criminals is the lesser evil? Methinks not. I find it shocking that you disagree.
In my mind, Duterte is just hastening the process of the Philippines becoming an utterly failed state.
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#513

Post by PUNQ » March 18th, 2017, 5:31 pm

But when the state with it's decades of corrupt governments ARE the criminals, how to uphold any legit equality? How to deal with anything in that kind of environment? Duterte is a political outsider, from a different region, who might have the power to something about the inbred corruption that goes on in Manila. Hopefully.... but it's rooted deep.

Again, IF true that Duterte has the legit focus to clean up the place (even if brutal) by eliminating the drug chain, surely that's better than letting those that's made the choice to be criminals win? Duterte was elected to do this, and one got to assume the new government mean well. Drug lords certainly never mean well. Look at the harm and violence drugs world is escalating, and then look at if the state response is justified or not. For me it becomes a military type thing. Black & white, if you are in the drug business, you are breaking the rules and there are consequences. Too harsh of consequences, yes, but the drug world is the coldest place there is and they know the risk when they enter it having been told loud and clear what will happen. The choice is there.

This is a hot topic and almost impossible to make sense of, so there is a lot of rambling here. Again, let me make it clear that I do not believe in killing, but I also don't believe in showing too much sympathy on those that venture into the brutal world of drugs. Thinking one can have it both ways is partly why this is such a world problem in the first place.
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#514

Post by monty » March 18th, 2017, 6:07 pm

PUNQ on Mar 18 2017, 11:31:09 AM wrote:I do not believe in killing, I also don't believe in showing too much sympathy on those that venture into the brutal world of drugs. Thinking one can have it both ways is partly why this is such a world problem in the first place.
That's fine but would you deny suspected criminals the right to have a fair trial or should they just be held guilty and imprisoned on suspicion alone?

And though you've had decades of corruption in government, fixing that by going in for a policy of shoot-to-kill and no due process is hardly how you restore the legitimacy of the state.
Bringing large numbers of people out of poverty, reducing inequalities of wealth, offering better access to education - in short, pursuing socially progressive policies would be a far better way of healing the ills of Filippino society, wouldn't you agree? Then again, the ruling class, of which Duterte is part, will never agree to that. To them, social mobility and wealth redistribution is anathema. They find it far more convenient to have guys like Duterte kill off the poor by way of excuse that they're criminal vermin - anything to maintain their privileged lifestyle in perpetuity.

Did you watch this vid by the Human Rights Watch? I guess you're fine with their findings?

President Duterte has frequently characterized his “war on drugs” as targeting “drug lords” and “drug pushers.” However, in all but one of the cases investigated by Human Rights Watch, the victims of drug-related killings by the police or unidentified gunmen were poor (the exception was a middle-class victim who appears to have been killed as a result of mistaken identity), and many were suspected drug users, not dealers at all. Almost all of the victims were either unemployed or worked menial jobs, including as rickshaw drivers or porters, and lived in slum neighborhoods or informal settlements.
The unlawful killings being carried out by police forces ultimately under Duterte’s command have repeatedly been brought to his attention by the media, the United Nations, foreign governments, and domestic and international nongovernmental organizations, including Human Rights Watch. His public comments in response to those allegations are evidence that he knows about them. As their continuing public statements make clear, Duterte and his top subordinates have denied or downplayed the illegality of police actions, showing no inclination or intent to investigate alleged crimes.

Finally, the president, senior officials, and others implicated in unlawful killings could be held liable for crimes against humanity, which are serious offenses committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack on a civilian population. The numerous and seemingly organized deadly attacks on the publicly targeted group of drug suspects could amount to crimes against humanity as defined by the International Criminal Court, to which the Philippines is a party.
President Duterte has a legal responsibility to publicly direct the Philippine National Police to end their campaign of extrajudicial executions of suspected drug dealers and users. The National Bureau of Investigation and Ombudsman’s Office should impartially investigate the killings and seek prosecutions of all those responsible. Congress should hold extensive hearings on the issue and adopt measures to prevent further such killings. Donor countries to the Philippines should end all assistance to the Philippine National Police until the killings cease and meaningful investigations are undertaken and consider redirecting that assistance to community-based harm reduction programs that are appropriate and effective.
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#515

Post by PUNQ » March 18th, 2017, 6:50 pm

The negative is that Duterte has given people a legitimate reason to kill. So with that you got the vigilantes who just want to play cowboy. Other times it's simply the drug gangs themselves cleaning up framing the police. Then there are the police themselves that are HEAVILY involved in the drug game, so they are covering their ass framing their victims as seen in that video. On top of that you simply have incompetence, sloppy police work. So people of variable degree of innocence are getting killed. You got to also separate Duterte's mission from what the police and various other "enforcers" are doing in this game. Duterte's dilemma is that in his hate of drugs has opened the game too wide and everyone is taking advantage of that. And with a climate where you never know who are the bad guys (often working side-by-side with the good guys). It's pure anarchy.

As far as the ideal kindness method of rehabilitating criminals and rebuilding the structure of the country. One can hope it's possible one day. The potential is there in many regions, but as of right now every organization is flooded with the wrong people and outsourcing them is not easy. If there is one wanting good, there will be two there to stop him/her. Wherever there is money (and it's going to take money to build the nation up) the opportunists and corrupt people are usually first in line to do the job. Not sure if the nation is ready for a full reform before proper work methods to prevent corruption is in order. And how to do that when the ones that'll make the rules are the same that'll later break them for their own gain. I'm glad I live in Norway.
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Post by Lammetje » March 18th, 2017, 7:20 pm

I think these walls of text don't belong in this thread.
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#517

Post by mightysparks » March 18th, 2017, 9:55 pm

I've had bad experiences with the Philippines and Filipino's (a Filipino being the main cause of my depression) and now this thread is triggering me lol :(
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Post by sol » April 8th, 2017, 6:51 am

Anyone heard from Melvelet?

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I had noticed for days that he had not updated the Doubling the Canon Challenge thread, but now I see that he has not been active in over two weeks! :o
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Post by joachimt » April 8th, 2017, 7:24 am

sol on Apr 8 2017, 12:51:02 AM wrote:Anyone heard from Melvelet?

Last ActivityMar 25 2017, 05:39:57 PM

http://www.icmforum.com/profile/3264894/

I had noticed for days that he had not updated the Doubling the Canon Challenge thread, but now I see that he has not been active in over two weeks! :o
Last activity on elsewhere on the same day:
2017-03-25 09:45:57
Hopefully it's just a little break.
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#520

Post by funkybusiness » April 8th, 2017, 7:30 am

didn't Mel take a break last year around this time? I seem to remember something like that. like ya said, joachim, hopefully just a little break.

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