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Weinstein, Spacey, etc.

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Weinstein, Spacey, etc.

#1

Post by brokenface » October 30th, 2017, 11:18 pm

Is it possible we don't have a topic yet about all the allegations flying around?

I guess there is a sense of 'what is there to say?' This has existed in film-world since the earliest days of Hollywood (and no doubt in every other part of the entertainment business and in every other part of the world). And some of these allegations are far from new (Weinstein was an open secret; the stories about James Toback have circulated online for years ).

But it feels like floodgates are opening now in a way they never have before. Can this cause lasting change, or will it just be a temporary clearing of the decks of a few of the most egregious examples before the cycle starts again once the media glare dies down?

One thing to ask: would an aspiring unknown actress starting out today be any more empowered to call out a powerful figure who assaults her than someone hoping to get a role in a Miramax film in the 90s who was assaulted by Harvey W?

--

And there's the secondary question: do allegations change how you feel about watching films by these film-makers/stars?

It's irrational but I find myself more repelled when it's an actor involved than, say, a director - today I am forced to wonder, will I ever be able to see a Kevin Spacey film in quite the same way? - I suppose because it is their face front and centre on the screen and their personality we associate with the roles (even if they may be very different indeed from their screen persona).

But I never stopped watching and liking Polanski's films even though he committed horrible crime(s). And I'm certainly not going to start boycotting anything with Harvey Weinstein's name on it 'cause where would you stop?

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#2

Post by AdamH » October 30th, 2017, 11:46 pm

I wonder if they will release series six of House of Cards. Hard to see it after the comments from the creator and the accusation against Spacey.

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#3

Post by RBG » October 30th, 2017, 11:47 pm

i can't eat subway since jared or jell-o pudding since cosby (true story). that said i still watch polanski's films, allen's not so much (they just aren't that good). i want this to continue til it takes out cheetolini. it still makes me so angry people blew off 17 women with corroboration. i certainly hope we're reaching a point where predators will think twice about their behavior because they'll be called out by colleagues. it makes me sick

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#4

Post by Pretentious Hipster » October 30th, 2017, 11:51 pm

It won't affect me watching their stuff or listening to their music, but it does affect me purchasing their products. Either way I'm glad they're getting called out.
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#5

Post by brokenface » October 30th, 2017, 11:58 pm

AdamH on Oct 30 2017, 05:46:35 PM wrote:I wonder if they will release series six of House of Cards. Hard to see it after the comments from the creator and the accusation against Spacey.
Probably depends if the allegations escalate as they have with others. They already started production on s6 so will be a significant loss to axe it completely now (as opposed to not renewing after s6 which they've already announced), but Netflix won't want to damage their brand.

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#6

Post by AdamH » October 31st, 2017, 12:00 am

On the topic of watching films, listening to music etc. of people accused/convicted of such crimes, I always found it bizarre that one of Gary Glitter's songs continue to be played at sporting events in the USA after he was convicted. I know almost none of his songs because they'll never be played in the UK in any setting and were basically wiped out after his conviction.

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#7

Post by Pretentious Hipster » October 31st, 2017, 12:02 am

This is definitely good for women not only for the obvious reasons but to also even out the playing field in terms of the difference of power between two genres. This is gonna be an awkward and scary time for many men to adjust, but fuck what they think in that regard.

Now to get rid of the whole masculinity > femininity bullshit.
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#8

Post by AdamH » October 31st, 2017, 12:03 am

brokenface on Oct 30 2017, 05:58:44 PM wrote:
AdamH on Oct 30 2017, 05:46:35 PM wrote:I wonder if they will release series six of House of Cards. Hard to see it after the comments from the creator and the accusation against Spacey.
Probably depends if the allegations escalate as they have with others. They already started production on s6 so will be a significant loss to axe it completely now (as opposed to not renewing after s6 which they've already announced), but Netflix won't want to damage their brand.
My thoughts are similar. If this doesn't escalate further then it might be possible for them to release the series. At the same time, the creator has said that the accusations are "deeply troubling" and he's backed the alleged victim. I'm not sure that they can realistically go ahead and release the series next year under those circumstances. Netflix are on a real high right now and this will all be very risky for them. If they hadn't started production then the answer would be obvious but I still feel like they'll end up cancelling production.

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#9

Post by funkybusiness » October 31st, 2017, 12:05 am

AdamH on Oct 30 2017, 06:00:21 PM wrote:On the topic of watching films, listening to music etc. of people accused/convicted of such crimes, I always found it bizarre that one of Gary Glitter's songs continue to be played at sporting events in the USA after he was convicted. I know almost none of his songs because they'll never be played in the UK in any setting and were basically wiped out after his conviction.
probably because no one in the US knows who Gary Glitter is, what he did, or that that song is his.

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#10

Post by brokenface » October 31st, 2017, 12:06 am

AdamH on Oct 30 2017, 06:00:21 PM wrote:On the topic of watching films, listening to music etc. of people accused/convicted of such crimes, I always found it bizarre that one of Gary Glitter's songs continue to be played at sporting events in the USA after he was convicted. I know almost none of his songs because they'll never be played in the UK in any setting and were basically wiped out after his conviction.
It's possibly just ignorance, he was a big star in UK in 70s but I don't think he was at all well-known in US, had maybe a couple of hits.

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#11

Post by OldAle1 » October 31st, 2017, 12:17 am

Glad this thread has been started; I thought about starting it myself but have been too lazy and unsure exactly how to broach it (or where to post it - I might have posted it in the general film discussion thread, but it's probably better here.

Like everybody I hope that this will help to change both the film industry and the larger culture (or cultures - this obviously is not a problem isolated to America), but as RBG notes we have a groper-in-chief in the White House who has paid nothing for his own terrible behavior. I will never forget listening to a southern (Alabama? don't remember) CongressWOMAN last year who was supporting him who basically said in a nutshell "oh that's just the way men are". So we have to get rid of that abuse-enabling mindset among women just as much as we have to get rid of the predatory, aggressive behavior being condoned, tolerated, even promoted by and for men.

I frankly don't have much hope for it in the short term. Maybe Hollywood will get a little better, maybe, but I have to say that in some respects the culture has gotten worse over my lifetime - I think overt masculinity and aggression are celebrated much more now than they were in the 70s or 80s. It's become cool to act like a brute in many areas in society and nobody should ever pretend that brutish behavior is a bit part of why Trump won and is popular with millions of men and women.

As far as spending money - I don't know. Plenty of my favorite artists from now and the past have been not such great people in one way or another - sexists or racists or homophobes or just plain mean, snobbish or asinine. Wagner, Beethoven, Tolkien, H.G. Wells, Pound, Mahler, Britten, Welles, Tarkovsky, Rivette, Godard, Eastwood, the list goes on and on. Maybe none of these guys raped anybody; maybe none of them ever committed an unprovoked act of violence - but they're still all people who said or did some things that are repellent to me at some point. We're all imperfect after all and while I don't believe I've done anything really awful in my life I haven't acted the part of the noble knight either, unfortunately. Weinstein and Spacey seem to be pretty unforgivable cases to me and this isn't really new news in either case, but I'm not going to throw out my copies of Dead Man or Se7en. I'm selfish, but I'm also a realist.
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#12

Post by Knaldskalle » October 31st, 2017, 12:18 am

RBG on Oct 30 2017, 05:47:21 PM wrote:i can't eat subway since jared or jell-o pudding since cosby (true story)
I loathe that kind of corporate sponsorships/endorsements and I always think it's hilarious when the celeb in question suddenly gets into hot water. The companies dump them and pretend it never happened faster than you can say "corporate governance" (see Michael Jackson and Pepsi or Tiger Woods and his "sponsors"). When will these companies learn that they're wasting their money trying to "hitch" themselves to a celeb?
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#13

Post by OldAle1 » October 31st, 2017, 12:20 am

brokenface on Oct 30 2017, 06:06:06 PM wrote:
AdamH on Oct 30 2017, 06:00:21 PM wrote:On the topic of watching films, listening to music etc. of people accused/convicted of such crimes, I always found it bizarre that one of Gary Glitter's songs continue to be played at sporting events in the USA after he was convicted. I know almost none of his songs because they'll never be played in the UK in any setting and were basically wiped out after his conviction.
It's possibly just ignorance, he was a big star in UK in 70s but I don't think he was at all well-known in US, had maybe a couple of hits.
Yeah, he wasn't that big here. I know the name but mostly because I've had a couple of friends who were as knowledgeable about 60s rock as WalterNeff is about film noir. And I know "Do You Wanna Touch Me" but mostly the Joan Jett version.
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#14

Post by monty » October 31st, 2017, 12:20 am

AdamH on Oct 30 2017, 05:46:35 PM wrote:I wonder if they will release series six of House of Cards. Hard to see it after the comments from the creator and the accusation against Spacey.
What accusation? That he is gay?

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#15

Post by OldAle1 » October 31st, 2017, 12:23 am

monty on Oct 30 2017, 06:20:59 PM wrote:
AdamH on Oct 30 2017, 05:46:35 PM wrote:I wonder if they will release series six of House of Cards. Hard to see it after the comments from the creator and the accusation against Spacey.
What accusation? That he is gay?
That he tried to force himself on a 14-year old boy. But there have been stories about terrible behavior for years, this is just something that surfaced recently.
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#16

Post by monty » October 31st, 2017, 12:26 am

OldAle1 on Oct 30 2017, 06:23:46 PM wrote:
monty on Oct 30 2017, 06:20:59 PM wrote:
AdamH on Oct 30 2017, 05:46:35 PM wrote:I wonder if they will release series six of House of Cards. Hard to see it after the comments from the creator and the accusation against Spacey.
What accusation? That he is gay?
That he tried to force himself on a 14-year old boy. But there have been stories about terrible behavior for years, this is just something that surfaced recently.
Oh, that's a different matter. He should have come out a long time ago.

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#17

Post by ChrisReynolds » October 31st, 2017, 12:36 am

monty on Oct 30 2017, 06:26:26 PM wrote:
OldAle1 on Oct 30 2017, 06:23:46 PM wrote:
monty on Oct 30 2017, 06:20:59 PM wrote:What accusation? That he is gay?
That he tried to force himself on a 14-year old boy. But there have been stories about terrible behavior for years, this is just something that surfaced recently.
Oh, that's a different matter. He should have come out a long time ago.
His statement compounds things by briefly acknowledging the allegations and then giving him coming out announcement to try and deflect things. All day I've been seeing tweets from people in the gay community furious that he only comes out when he needs to distract from his sexual assaults, and in doing so revives the homophobic link between homosexuality and paedophilia.

I saw on the news that Netflix will release Season 6 of House of Cards (hard to see them not when they've spent so much money on it), but that the series will end there, so there may not be a proper resolution to the series.

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#18

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » October 31st, 2017, 12:48 am

To be fair what's he supposed to do. He had no intention of coming out and he can't give his apology statement without coming out. So either the two things get intertwined or he doesn't make a statement.

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#19

Post by ChrisReynolds » October 31st, 2017, 1:14 am

PeacefulAnarchy on Oct 30 2017, 06:48:35 PM wrote:To be fair what's he supposed to do. He had no intention of coming out and he can't give his apology statement without coming out. So either the two things get intertwined or he doesn't make a statement.
Here's what he posted on his Twitter:

Image

It still looks bad to me. He talks more about himself than about the victim and there's the implication in the coming out statement that these allegations are the result of him being private about his sexuality and that the causation of the assault was his homosexuality.

There's at least one more assault allegation about Spacey now, so it doesn't look like this was a one-off thing either. I feel really gutted about this. I loved his acting and went to see him at the theatre when he was running the Old Vic. It was well known for years that he was gay but this sort of behaviour I didn't know about, yet even my sister is publishing news articles about how it was an open secret.

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#20

Post by Good_Will_Harding » October 31st, 2017, 1:27 am

Heard the news this morning but missed Spacey's statement until just now. Woof. Never thought there was such a thing as a bad time to come out publicly.

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#21

Post by mightysparks » October 31st, 2017, 1:27 am

It has zero effect on my opinions of them as actors/whatever and won't affect my decision to see any films that they're names are attached to, but it's kinda crazy how many rapey men are around.
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#22

Post by Knaldskalle » October 31st, 2017, 2:55 am

It's difficult not to be disappointed when someone you like turns out to be an asshole in real life.

Michelangelo was a convicted murderer. Does that make the Sistine Chapel less beautiful?
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#23

Post by sebby » October 31st, 2017, 5:44 am

Hopefully the dominos keep falling. I do think this signifies a sea change and this kind of behavior will, if not disappear entirely, be significantly curtailed. It's now the accused having their careers fucked, not the accusers, and that's a very big change.

As far as being able to enjoy the work of these shitbags, it kind of depends, and it's hard to say where exactly the line is. Cosby's crimes, for example, were too great for me to ever watch another ep of his show, which I adored growing up. I think a lot of people feel the same way. With some of the other names, it's not so easy to come down on the side of Fuck you and your work, I'm done with you.

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#24

Post by xianjiro » October 31st, 2017, 6:10 am

AdamH on Oct 30 2017, 06:03:20 PM wrote:
brokenface on Oct 30 2017, 05:58:44 PM wrote:
AdamH on Oct 30 2017, 05:46:35 PM wrote:I wonder if they will release series six of House of Cards. Hard to see it after the comments from the creator and the accusation against Spacey.
Probably depends if the allegations escalate as they have with others. They already started production on s6 so will be a significant loss to axe it completely now (as opposed to not renewing after s6 which they've already announced), but Netflix won't want to damage their brand.
My thoughts are similar. If this doesn't escalate further then it might be possible for them to release the series. At the same time, the creator has said that the accusations are "deeply troubling" and he's backed the alleged victim. I'm not sure that they can realistically go ahead and release the series next year under those circumstances. Netflix are on a real high right now and this will all be very risky for them. If they hadn't started production then the answer would be obvious but I still feel like they'll end up cancelling production.
sure, punish hundreds of other hardworking people for one asshole's bad behavior - personally, I think a well-timed assassination as early in the season would be the best approach - then they could play with the whole aftermath of FU's presidency and the effect bad governance has on a nation.

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#25

Post by xianjiro » October 31st, 2017, 6:54 am

only 'positive' thing I can about spacey at this stage is, at least we didn't go through weeks/months of the usual denial bs.

I'm very supportive and thankful that Rapp has stood up - did he have to? I mean really? What honestly does he have to gain from this? How many people will shake his hand differently after this? I could go on. It still was risky and _HE_ will be treated differently in the future.

Worst of it is within the LBGTQ community where, rather than finally acknowledging that men are also raping other men (and there is ZERO support out there for gay men who are raped - they are shamed at every frickin' turn - why? Because MEN rape WOMEN. end of discussion) and this being discussed rationally and 'normally' as an element of privilege and power and the abuse of such in the culture will be drowned out by the years of homophobia equating being gay with raping children. Sorry, the arguments might not hold water, but after years decades of being on the receiving end of such abuse, it's hard to walk away from unscathed. So I get how this hurts the community but I'll be damned if I'm going to do anything other than thank and support Rapp for speaking out.

As for how much will change - I'm only barely hopeful that those in positions of power will stop abusing that power. I remember the early 90s when 'sexual harassment' was all the buzzword in the business community (sure, it goes back a bit further, but...). I can remember classes spent at grad school with guys asking things like "Okay, I get that I can't stick my hand down her blouse, but I can put my hand on her shoulder, right? What about her knee?" or "What about hugs? Can I hug her to congratulate her for a job well done?" They didn't like that there were no hard, fast, simple answers. (shoulder good, knee bad -- congratulatory hugs are fine but only if she outperformed other worker by at least 127%) Did that put an end to bosses and employees sleeping together? Even with lawsuits, threats of lawsuits, and judgments and lost jobs? Nope. Shit's still happening though many workplaces require employees to report to HR that they are in some sort of a relationship. Why? To protect the company if the relationship goes south and someone decides to sue.

How many governments have fallen around the globe because of sexual scandals? Have politicians stopped playing hide the cigar?

Yes, maybe some good people will think twice before taking home someone working for them or that slightly youngish looking 22 year old. But the 'good' people aren't the problem here. Bad people - the vast majority of which are male, but I'm not convinced that women in power won't misuse underlings similarly - will continue to behave badly and people who don't get hired will always wonder if it's because they told the truth about what happened to them on the casting couch.

Ask Colin Kaepernick how easy it's been to find work in the NFL (American football) since he started protesting the maltreatment of racial minorities in America by not standing for the national anthem. He - or at least his lawyer - will tell you what happens to those who speak truth to power.
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#26

Post by insomnia » October 31st, 2017, 8:02 am

Knaldskalle on Oct 30 2017, 08:55:52 PM wrote:It's difficult not to be disappointed when someone you like turns out to be an asshole in real life.

Michelangelo was a convicted murderer. Does that make the Sistine Chapel less beautiful?
Do you mean Caravaggio?

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#27

Post by AdamH » October 31st, 2017, 11:16 pm

Production suspended on House of Cards now. No surprise really.

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#28

Post by monclivie » October 31st, 2017, 11:32 pm

I don't see any problem with Spacey. 14 year old kid is spending the night partying (WTF?), and someone who is dead drunk and gay awkwardly tries to seduce/cuddle or whatever it was, but nothing more. Now he is terribly sorry and apologizes. What elese should he do?

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#29

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » November 1st, 2017, 12:24 am

monclivie on Oct 31 2017, 05:32:27 PM wrote:I don't see any problem with Spacey. 14 year old kid is spending the night partying (WTF?), and someone who is dead drunk and gay awkwardly tries to seduce/cuddle or whatever it was, but nothing more. Now he is terribly sorry and apologizes. What elese should he do?
The unspoken part is 1) Is that behaviour appropriate even if it was an adult? I'd say no, but popular culture is very mixed on that idea, especially at the time it happened 2) I get the sense this isn't the only incident of this sort that people in the biz know about, but maybe that's something that should be made explicit for those of us not in touch with the rumour mill.

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#30

Post by monclivie » November 1st, 2017, 1:04 am

It wasn't appropriate for sure, but I don't think any career should be affected by something inappropriate but clearly non-aggresive done in your house when you were young and drunk.

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#31

Post by OldAle1 » November 1st, 2017, 1:24 am

Spacey has apparently had a bad rep for a long time though; I have a friend who lived in London for a while in the late 90s-early 00s and was fairly intimate with the theater crowd there, and he shared some pretty bad stories about the guy with us at least 15 years ago. I don't remember a lot of details but much of it did involve the guy hitting on underage boys. So yeah, if the only thing he did wrong was hit on a 14-year-old three decades ago, he probably doesn't deserve crucifixion; I think this goes deeper in all likelihood.
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#32

Post by sebby » November 1st, 2017, 2:44 am

[font=courier]Right, this isn't a Polanski situation where there was seemingly one victim and that was the beginning and end of it. This shit with Spacey has been a sort of open secret for years. People have anonymously written about his misconduct on blogs, on reddit, etc, for a while now. Smoke = fire. [/font]

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#33

Post by Knaldskalle » November 1st, 2017, 6:10 am

insomnia on Oct 31 2017, 02:02:11 AM wrote:
Knaldskalle on Oct 30 2017, 08:55:52 PM wrote:It's difficult not to be disappointed when someone you like turns out to be an asshole in real life.

Michelangelo was a convicted murderer. Does that make the Sistine Chapel less beautiful?
Do you mean Caravaggio?
Argh, yes! Got my Michelangelos mixed up. Sorry! I'll have to update my example.

Michelangelo Caravaggio was a convicted murderer. Does that make his St. Jerome any less beautiful?
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#34

Post by maxwelldeux » November 1st, 2017, 6:47 am

sebby on Oct 31 2017, 08:44:57 PM wrote:[font=courier]Right, this isn't a Polanski situation where there was seemingly one victim and that was the beginning and end of it. This shit with Spacey has been a sort of open secret for years. People have anonymously written about his misconduct on blogs, on reddit, etc, for a while now. Smoke = fire. [/font]
Unrelated to anything else in this thread, but are you a programmer? :mw_confused:

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#35

Post by xianjiro » November 1st, 2017, 7:58 am

Knaldskalle on Nov 1 2017, 12:10:51 AM wrote:
insomnia on Oct 31 2017, 02:02:11 AM wrote:
Knaldskalle on Oct 30 2017, 08:55:52 PM wrote:It's difficult not to be disappointed when someone you like turns out to be an asshole in real life.

Michelangelo was a convicted murderer. Does that make the Sistine Chapel less beautiful?
Do you mean Caravaggio?
Argh, yes! Got my Michelangelos mixed up. Sorry! I'll have to update my example.

Michelangelo Caravaggio was a convicted murderer. Does that make his St. Jerome any less beautiful?
Yes.

Every time I see it all I see is blood. Lotsa blood.

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#36

Post by sebby » November 1st, 2017, 8:06 am

maxwelldeux on Nov 1 2017, 12:47:17 AM wrote:
sebby on Oct 31 2017, 08:44:57 PM wrote:[font=courier]Right, this isn't a Polanski situation where there was seemingly one victim and that was the beginning and end of it. This shit with Spacey has been a sort of open secret for years. People have anonymously written about his misconduct on blogs, on reddit, etc, for a while now. Smoke = fire. [/font]
Unrelated to anything else in this thread, but are you a programmer? :mw_confused:
[font=courier]Let's just say I am a man who wears many hats and leave it at that. :whistling:

Btw, Andy Dick now joins the party. Another unsurprising accusation. [/font]

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#37

Post by xianjiro » November 1st, 2017, 8:10 am

sebby on Nov 1 2017, 02:06:34 AM wrote:
maxwelldeux on Nov 1 2017, 12:47:17 AM wrote:
sebby on Oct 31 2017, 08:44:57 PM wrote:[font=courier]Right, this isn't a Polanski situation where there was seemingly one victim and that was the beginning and end of it. This shit with Spacey has been a sort of open secret for years. People have anonymously written about his misconduct on blogs, on reddit, etc, for a while now. Smoke = fire. [/font]
Unrelated to anything else in this thread, but are you a programmer? :mw_confused:
[font=courier]Let's just say I am a man who wears many hats and leave it at that. :whistling:

Btw, Andy Dick now joins the party. Another unsurprising accusation. [/font]
wait, spacey raped andy (the) dick? :unsure:

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
sol can find me here

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#38

Post by sebby » November 1st, 2017, 8:27 am

[font=courier]Nah, Dick just joins Spacey in the circle of shame. Latest big name to get accusations levied against him. [/font]

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brokenface
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#39

Post by brokenface » November 1st, 2017, 1:15 pm

monclivie on Oct 31 2017, 07:04:17 PM wrote:It wasn't appropriate for sure, but I don't think any career should be affected by something inappropriate but clearly non-aggresive done in your house when you were young and drunk.
There's more stories coming, for sure (they've already started). You could tell from the reaction that this was more than just one drunken incident - the fact that Spacey immediately came in with a careful PR statement, that Netflix immediately acted to distance themselves, that very few people leapt to his defence. Everything about the reaction says it was another open secret kinda thing like Harvey.

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#40

Post by OldAle1 » November 1st, 2017, 3:48 pm

Spacey's old news now - it's Brett Ratner under the spotlight now:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/6 ... ct-1053679

and nobody should be any more shocked about this than they are about Weinstein or Spacey.
Here's to the fools who dream.

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