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US Politics thread

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Onderhond
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#17642

Post by Onderhond » June 5th, 2020, 5:06 am

sebby wrote:
June 4th, 2020, 11:03 pm
So IMO there is no issue with the left finally aggressively naming, shaming, and fighting against horrifying far right individuals, philosophies and behaviors.
I agree, sadly that's not really what's happening. Pretty much everyone that dares to be critical of the far left's idealism is named, shamed and branded some far right idiot. And that includes people who are just plain left, centrist and moderately on the right side of the spectrum. Online discussions (that spill into offline behavior) get so polarized though that there's no room for any of that anymore. You can either be Antifa or a Nazi and if you're neither they're sure to pick a side for you.

And the thing that people seem to forget: winning or losing an election is one thing, but in the end you still have to live with the "other side" in the same country. There's no escaping that. If Biden beats Trump, all those hateful people aren't suddenly going to go away and they'll still be very much part of your community.

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#17643

Post by St. Gloede » June 5th, 2020, 8:22 am

I have a question for the Americans in this thread, as I have not seen this brought up in the discourse, and I was wondering why.

Would it not have been possible to address a portion of this problem by redrawing police precinct lines and replacing the police department(s) with sheriff's departments, specifically for disproportionally affected communities?

America already has this established structure of democratically elected community law enforcement, which as such would be part of the community and accountable to them. Not sure how much it would really solve as mayors, etc. are also elected, and manage the police force - but in this case the law enforcement would specifically represent X community.




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#17647

Post by blocho » June 5th, 2020, 2:55 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
June 5th, 2020, 8:22 am
I have a question for the Americans in this thread, as I have not seen this brought up in the discourse, and I was wondering why.

Would it not have been possible to address a portion of this problem by redrawing police precinct lines and replacing the police department(s) with sheriff's departments, specifically for disproportionally affected communities?

America already has this established structure of democratically elected community law enforcement, which as such would be part of the community and accountable to them. Not sure how much it would really solve as mayors, etc. are also elected, and manage the police force - but in this case the law enforcement would specifically represent X community.
Hmm. So in the US a sheriff's department serves as the law enforcement for a county. Sometimes, counties have cities or towns in them that have their own police department. In those cases, the sheriff's department will serve as law enforcement for everyone in that county except for the people living in those towns/cities with their own police department. Most sheriffs are elected officials, unlike police chiefs, who are usually appointed by a mayor. Is that why you think having a sheriff's department is better than a police department? Because the sheriff is elected? I'm not sure that's the case. I think electing law enforcement, like electing judges, is fraught with negative consequences. John Oliver did a segment on sheriffs some time ago. I would suggest giving it a watch.


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#17649

Post by Knaldskalle » June 5th, 2020, 4:24 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
June 5th, 2020, 8:22 am
I have a question for the Americans in this thread, as I have not seen this brought up in the discourse, and I was wondering why.

Would it not have been possible to address a portion of this problem by redrawing police precinct lines and replacing the police department(s) with sheriff's departments, specifically for disproportionally affected communities?

America already has this established structure of democratically elected community law enforcement, which as such would be part of the community and accountable to them. Not sure how much it would really solve as mayors, etc. are also elected, and manage the police force - but in this case the law enforcement would specifically represent X community.
In the US, the sheriff's office is responsible for the unincorporated parts of a county. Once an area is incorporated (i.e. officially turned into a city) it's responsible for its own police force. You see some strange consequences of that sometimes. Palo Alto, home of Stanford University, has its own police force. East Pal Alto is unincorporated (it was deliberately excluded when Palo Alto incorporated because it was poor) so the Sheriff's office has jurisdiction there. Same damn town.

I remember trying for calculate just how many law enforcement agencies could potentially arrest me when I lived in Berkeley. I stopped that exercise once I passed 23, figuring it was pointless to go on (various state police forces, regional police, local pd, local sheriff, federal agencies).

It's all a big mess.
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#17650

Post by St. Gloede » June 5th, 2020, 5:58 pm

Ha, I can imagine, and thanks Blocho, will give that a look. Yes, that was the general idea. De-incorporating them in a way that gave a sense and reality of more autonomy and representation - as one of the key critiques seems to be that the cops are not a part of the community - but I can imagine this bringing in a set of new issues (and possibly not addressing the original issue in any real way either).


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#17652

Post by Dolwphin » June 6th, 2020, 4:21 am

BREAKING: Joseph "Joe" Robinette Biden Jr. wins the 2020 Democratic Party presidential primaries and caucuses. :ICM:

He has 1,993 delegates according to AP which surpasses the 1,991 needed to clinch a majority of the pledged delegates.
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#17655

Post by Dolwphin » June 7th, 2020, 3:36 pm

Guam

Joe Biden - 70 % - 5 Delegates :ICM:
Bernie Sanders - 30 % - 2 Delegates

---

1. Joe Biden - 2,004 Delegates :ICM:

2. Bernie Sanders - 1,047 Delegates
3. Elizabeth Warren - 63 Delegates
4. Mike Bloomberg - 49 Delegates
5. Pete Buttigieg - 21 Delegates
6. Amy Klobuchar - 7 Delegates
7. Tulsi Gabbard - 2 Delegates
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#17656

Post by Kublai Khan » June 7th, 2020, 6:00 pm

Biden is "most personally responsible" for increasing the power of the police state? I find that claim dubious.
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#17657

Post by Knaldskalle » June 7th, 2020, 6:16 pm

Kublai Khan wrote:
June 7th, 2020, 6:00 pm
Biden is "most personally responsible" for increasing the power of the police state? I find that claim dubious.
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#17658

Post by St. Gloede » June 8th, 2020, 6:41 am

Minneapolis City Council has voted to disband the police department. The vote was 9-4, creating a veto-proof majority.
The nine councillors read a statement to hundreds of protesters on Sunday.

"We are here because here in Minneapolis and in cities across the United States it is clear that our existing system of policing and public safety is not keeping our communities safe," City Council President Lisa Bender was quoted as saying.

"Our efforts at incremental reform have failed. Period."

Ms Bender said details of the overhaul plan needed to be discussed further, adding that she would try to shift police funding towards community based strategies.
Souces:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... orge-floyd
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52960227

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#17659

Post by 3eyes » June 8th, 2020, 1:53 pm

I just tuned into this quote from the Blob's law and order speech last week: "“Where there is no justice, there is no liberty. Where there is no safety, there is no future.” Isn't that exactly the point - for minorities?
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#17660

Post by Knaldskalle » June 8th, 2020, 4:06 pm

3eyes wrote:
June 8th, 2020, 1:53 pm
I just tuned into this quote from the Blob's law and order speech last week: "“Where there is no justice, there is no liberty. Where there is no safety, there is no future.” Isn't that exactly the point - for minorities?
Nonono, those people are thugs and looters. We're talking white people's safety.
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#17661

Post by Kublai Khan » June 8th, 2020, 4:40 pm

Knaldskalle wrote:
June 7th, 2020, 6:16 pm
Kublai Khan wrote:
June 7th, 2020, 6:00 pm
Biden is "most personally responsible" for increasing the power of the police state? I find that claim dubious.
Yeah, but.. "most personally responsible"? Like he is the single individual that bears most of the responsibility? Like, if Biden wasn't around, the situation today wouldn't exist?

Dubious claim.
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#17662

Post by Knaldskalle » June 8th, 2020, 5:22 pm

Kublai Khan wrote:
June 8th, 2020, 4:40 pm
Knaldskalle wrote:
June 7th, 2020, 6:16 pm
Kublai Khan wrote:
June 7th, 2020, 6:00 pm
Biden is "most personally responsible" for increasing the power of the police state? I find that claim dubious.
Yeah, but.. "most personally responsible"? Like he is the single individual that bears most of the responsibility? Like, if Biden wasn't around, the situation today wouldn't exist?

Dubious claim.
Name a single individual who in your opinion has done more and we can talk about it. As to your thought that "if Biden wasn't around" we wouldn't be here, that's not what anyone's saying, what's being said is that he is the one who bears the single most responsibility for the current state of the police. There's a difference between those two things.

"Himmler is the one person most responsible for the extermination of Jews during the Holocaust" is not the same as saying "If it weren't for Himmler there would've been no Holocaust."

(Before anyone invokes Godwin's Law, I'm making an analogy to make a point, I'm not comparing anyone to the Nazis.)
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#17663

Post by Dolwphin » June 8th, 2020, 5:55 pm

Listen folks, you must believe BIden is the equivalent of Himmler. Sorry I don't make the rules!

(Before anybody complains, I'm not saying what I'm saying, but unironically perhaps, or maybe Derrida was correct after all)
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#17664

Post by Dolwphin » June 8th, 2020, 6:13 pm

Joe now leads in all the key swing states, but still huge enthusiasm gap.


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#17665

Post by Kublai Khan » June 8th, 2020, 7:59 pm

Knaldskalle wrote:
June 8th, 2020, 5:22 pm
Kublai Khan wrote:
June 8th, 2020, 4:40 pm
Knaldskalle wrote:
June 7th, 2020, 6:16 pm


Yeah, but.. "most personally responsible"? Like he is the single individual that bears most of the responsibility? Like, if Biden wasn't around, the situation today wouldn't exist?

Dubious claim.
Name a single individual who in your opinion has done more and we can talk about it. As to your thought that "if Biden wasn't around" we wouldn't be here, that's not what anyone's saying, what's being said is that he is the one who bears the single most responsibility for the current state of the police. There's a difference between those two things.

"Himmler is the one person most responsible for the extermination of Jews during the Holocaust" is not the same as saying "If it weren't for Himmler there would've been no Holocaust."

(Before anyone invokes Godwin's Law, I'm making an analogy to make a point, I'm not comparing anyone to the Nazis.)
I concede the second point.

But I'm not sure why the onus is on me to prove your first point. I don't know who is "most personally responsible" for increasing the power of the police state. I mean, your video's evidence is that Biden pushed Reagan. So wouldn't that mean Reagan bears more responsibility because he had more authority? Just a shot in the dark.

But my lack of knowledge doesn't mean that your statement is fact. You're asking me to prove a negative. That's not a possible thing. I can't prove that he isn't.

However, you made of the claim of "most personally responsible". Not "bears some responsibility" or "contributed to". But "most" and "personally".

Unless you admit to hyperbole, it's still a very dubious claim. :folded:
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#17666

Post by Onderhond » June 8th, 2020, 8:07 pm

Kublai Khan wrote:
June 8th, 2020, 7:59 pm
Unless you admit to hyperbole, it's still a very dubious claim. :folded:
But once the hyperbole is gone, the claim is quite accurate?

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#17667

Post by Kublai Khan » June 8th, 2020, 11:13 pm

D'oh.
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#17668

Post by Knaldskalle » June 9th, 2020, 1:37 am

Speak of the devil, the Washington Post has just published an article about Joe Biden's Crime Bill:

Joe Biden let police groups write his crime bill. Now, his agenda has changed.
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#17669

Post by Knaldskalle » June 9th, 2020, 1:59 am

Kublai Khan wrote:
June 8th, 2020, 7:59 pm
But I'm not sure why the onus is on me to prove your first point. I don't know who is "most personally responsible" for increasing the power of the police state. I mean, your video's evidence is that Biden pushed Reagan. So wouldn't that mean Reagan bears more responsibility because he had more authority? Just a shot in the dark.

But my lack of knowledge doesn't mean that your statement is fact. You're asking me to prove a negative. That's not a possible thing. I can't prove that he isn't.

However, you made of the claim of "most personally responsible". Not "bears some responsibility" or "contributed to". But "most" and "personally".

Unless you admit to hyperbole, it's still a very dubious claim. :folded:
Oh, I didn't mean that you had to prove a point, I just thought you had someone in mind that you thought deserved the title as much or more. I figured we could discuss the merits of another candidate, but you're right, the onus is one the one who made the claim. But just as it's impossible to prove a negative, I think it's pretty darn difficult to quantitatively determine exactly who contributed how much to this mess we're in. However, as the (official, at least) author of the 1994 crime bill and, as you saw, someone who pushed both mandatory minimum sentencing guidelines and civil forfeiture, I think it's hard to think of anyone else who might deserve it more.

Oh, and Reagan didn't write the bills that enabled the mess we're in right now.

Remember Hillary's 1996 "Superpredator" comment that came back to haunt her in 2016? She made that comment in a speech about the 1994 crime bill. It's the gift that keeps on giving.
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#17670

Post by Dolwphin » June 9th, 2020, 4:02 pm

I misread this head-line at first ... :lol:

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#17671

Post by Knaldskalle » June 9th, 2020, 4:25 pm

Dolwphin wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 4:02 pm
I misread this head-line at first ... :lol:

I thought it was from The Onion...

:facepalm:
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#17672

Post by Kublai Khan » June 9th, 2020, 7:36 pm

Pretentious Hipster wrote:
June 5th, 2020, 1:57 am
Image

This truly exposes how ugly a lot of America is. Just obsessed in believing in conspiracy theories that paint anyone (children at Sandy Hook elementary, concert goers in Las Vegas, even 75 year olds in ICU) as "agents" against them.

This (and the racism) are the two things we need to seriously address.
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#17674

Post by blocho » June 10th, 2020, 4:44 am

It's an important responsibility of the military to plan for all sorts of scenarios, including unlikely ones. But holy shit that's a hilarious story. I really wonder what other secret scenarios they've planned for. I would pay $50 to read the pentagon's secret plan for the zombie apocalypse or the kraken or the kaiju from Pacific Rim.

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#17675

Post by Knaldskalle » June 10th, 2020, 7:12 am

blocho wrote:
June 10th, 2020, 4:44 am
It's an important responsibility of the military to plan for all sorts of scenarios, including unlikely ones. But holy shit that's a hilarious story. I really wonder what other secret scenarios they've planned for. I would pay $50 to read the pentagon's secret plan for the zombie apocalypse or the kraken or the kaiju from Pacific Rim.
The Pentagon wargames everything, that's their job. But yeah, this one's probably more... unusual.
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#17677

Post by matthewscott8 » June 10th, 2020, 10:06 pm

Forbes saying that Minneapolis is looking at disbanding the police department. That is a massive move and is the first thing I have seen that has cheered me up. I have been sickened by the virtue signalling, cancel culture and history erasure that has been going on since George Floyd murdered, looks like someone woke up and started thinking about the future and about change.

Minneapolis PD being got rid of is radical change. It could be beautiful, it could be the future for every city. This is massive.

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#17678

Post by Pretentious Hipster » June 12th, 2020, 1:41 am

Looks like America still has their priorities


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#17679

Post by matthewscott8 » June 12th, 2020, 7:47 am

Pretentious Hipster wrote:
June 12th, 2020, 1:41 am
Looks like America still has their priorities

wow they are retarded. They should actually be paying both of those countries reparations for a century of deceit and interference which has lead to incalculable damages.

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#17680

Post by cinewest » June 13th, 2020, 4:39 am

Onderhond wrote:
June 5th, 2020, 5:06 am
sebby wrote:
June 4th, 2020, 11:03 pm
So IMO there is no issue with the left finally aggressively naming, shaming, and fighting against horrifying far right individuals, philosophies and behaviors.
I agree, sadly that's not really what's happening. Pretty much everyone that dares to be critical of the far left's idealism is named, shamed and branded some far right idiot. And that includes people who are just plain left, centrist and moderately on the right side of the spectrum. Online discussions (that spill into offline behavior) get so polarized though that there's no room for any of that anymore. You can either be Antifa or a Nazi and if you're neither they're sure to pick a side for you.

And the thing that people seem to forget: winning or losing an election is one thing, but in the end you still have to live with the "other side" in the same country. There's no escaping that. If Biden beats Trump, all those hateful people aren't suddenly going to go away and they'll still be very much part of your community.
We may not like the same movies, but you hit the nail on the head here.

I have leaned left politically all my life, but radical left positions and ways of thinking, though perhaps more idealistic, are as misleading and out of touch with reality as those on the far right. People want or seem to need the truth to be black or white so they can validate righteous behavior and excuse all other kinds of behavior in the process, and this is as true for the Trumpites, as for the police, the radical left, and also true for most criminals.

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