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US Politics thread

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Lakigigar
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Re: US Politics thread

#15201

Post by Lakigigar » August 23rd, 2019, 8:52 am

ISideWith Results

80% Tulsi Gabbard
78% Andrew Yang
77% Pete Buttigieg
75% Bernie Sanders
75% Kamala Harris
74% Kirsten Gillibrand
73% Julian Castro
72% Elizabeth Warren
72% Marianne Williamson
72% Beto O'Rourke
71% John Delaney
61% Amy Klobuchar
60% Cory Booker
52% Joe Biden
49% Donald J. Trump
47% Gary Johnson
46% John Kasich

LOL @Joe Biden.

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#15202

Post by Lakigigar » August 23rd, 2019, 8:57 am

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#15203

Post by St. Gloede » August 23rd, 2019, 10:50 am

Wait, did "Isidewith" literally add every single Democrat, except Biden, as moderate to extreme socialists ...

They are literally Liberals, the majority are full-on capitalists.

Even Sanders supports Capitalism (at least in platform and rhetoric, hard to say what he thinks personally of course).

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#15204

Post by Cippenham » August 23rd, 2019, 11:11 am

Unless its Joe 😀

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#15205

Post by Cippenham » August 23rd, 2019, 11:14 am

In American terms what is the difference between socialism and liberalism?

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#15206

Post by Dolwphin » August 23rd, 2019, 11:21 am

Sanders says he is a democratic socialist if asked the Q. Warren emphasizes that she is a proud capitalist. So don't agree, from what i have seen, about the rhetoric. And that label have opened up valuable discourse space, widened the overtone window.

That electoral map looks about right, but if Biden is nominee then Michigan could reverse your prediction.
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#15207

Post by Lakigigar » August 23rd, 2019, 1:17 pm

Moulton drops out, warning the party how far-left it is going and that it will be harder to defeat Trump.

Well BYEEEEEE, won't miss you.

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#15208

Post by Lakigigar » August 23rd, 2019, 1:18 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
August 23rd, 2019, 10:50 am
Wait, did "Isidewith" literally add every single Democrat, except Biden, as moderate to extreme socialists ...

They are literally Liberals, the majority are full-on capitalists.

Even Sanders supports Capitalism (at least in platform and rhetoric, hard to say what he thinks personally of course).
Socialism isn't communism but more like regulationism and social democracy, and most of them have became social democrats or social liberals. No, there are no communists running, that's true. Sanders is also a democratic socialist, but others like Warren are social democrats.

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#15209

Post by St. Gloede » August 23rd, 2019, 1:50 pm

Dolwphin wrote:
August 23rd, 2019, 11:21 am
Sanders says he is a democratic socialist if asked the Q. Warren emphasizes that she is a proud capitalist. So don't agree, from what i have seen, about the rhetoric. And that label have opened up valuable discourse space, widened the overtone window.

That electoral map looks about right, but if Biden is nominee then Michigan could reverse your prediction.
Sanders have made it clear, time and time again, that he is not advocating replacing capitalism.

Democratic Socialists (more specifically, members of most common ideological group using this label) are still pro-capitalism.

Democratic Socialism is when the economy is democratically accountable and the will of the people is the ultimate authority - not when private property/capitalism is removed.

The term has of course also been used to define ideologies and strategies such as Fabian Socialism, "Evolutionary Socialism", and Gradualism advocating the transition to a socialist economy. This is the other major movement using the label - and it can cause some major confusion around what the term means.

(It has also been used to describe ideologies advocating a socialist economy organized through democracy, and movements advocating for a parliamentary system - or any other form of democracy, next to a socialist economy).

So yes, I can see why defining himself as a Democratic Socialism could make people believe he is a Socialist. He is however very clear about the distinctions between Democratic Socialism and Socialism. This is the ideology of Olof Palme, Trygve Bratteli, etc. Or for a more contemporary example: Ed Miliband not Jeremy Corbyn.

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#15210

Post by St. Gloede » August 23rd, 2019, 2:03 pm

Lakigigar wrote:
August 23rd, 2019, 1:18 pm
St. Gloede wrote:
August 23rd, 2019, 10:50 am
Wait, did "Isidewith" literally add every single Democrat, except Biden, as moderate to extreme socialists ...

They are literally Liberals, the majority are full-on capitalists.

Even Sanders supports Capitalism (at least in platform and rhetoric, hard to say what he thinks personally of course).
Socialism isn't communism but more like regulationism and social democracy, and most of them have became social democrats or social liberals. No, there are no communists running, that's true. Sanders is also a democratic socialist, but others like Warren are social democrats.
It is true that Democratic Socialism is essentially Social Democracy+, but Democratic Socialists are not advocating for a socialist economy.

- Social Democracy is a mixed Economy between State Socialism and (Social) Liberalism.
- Social Liberalism is just capitalism with welfare/social justice.

Socialism is a pretty broad spectrum, and refers to both ideologies and economic systems. Some include Democratic Socialists in the usage of the ideological term. This is because even though they oppose (or at least does not argue for) a socialist economy - they advocate collective control of the economy.

However, if we focus on the economic definition socialism is when the workers or the people (or the consumers, members, stakeholders, etc.) own and control the means of production. This extends to everything from State Socialism to Co-Operative Economies and fully free market worker-owned economies like Mutualism - to hybrids between worker and collective power like Collectivism, Guild Socialism, etc.

Communism is typically considered as one step further left, though it does fall under the Socialist umbrella. Specifically, communism advocates a stateless, borderless, moneyless society. There is often a distinction made between Low Communism (which can be seen as more similar to standard socialism, i.e. the workers are rewarded based on labor) and High Communism (resources are divided based on need). This distinction is only really relevant in Marxist theory however. That said, most other socialist ideologies advocate moving towards a Post-Scarcity economy, which has many similarities to High Communism.

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#15211

Post by Dolwphin » August 23rd, 2019, 2:17 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
August 23rd, 2019, 1:50 pm
Dolwphin wrote:
August 23rd, 2019, 11:21 am
Sanders says he is a democratic socialist if asked the Q. Warren emphasizes that she is a proud capitalist. So don't agree, from what i have seen, about the rhetoric. And that label have opened up valuable discourse space, widened the overtone window.

That electoral map looks about right, but if Biden is nominee then Michigan could reverse your prediction.
Sanders have made it clear, time and time again, that he is not advocating replacing capitalism.

Democratic Socialists (more specifically, members of most common ideological group using this label) are still pro-capitalism.

Democratic Socialism is when the economy is democratically accountable and the will of the people is the ultimate authority - not when private property/capitalism is removed.

The term has of course also been used to define ideologies and strategies such as Fabian Socialism, "Evolutionary Socialism", and Gradualism advocating the transition to a socialist economy. This is the other major movement using the label - and it can cause some major confusion around what the term means.

(It has also been used to describe ideologies advocating a socialist economy organized through democracy, and movements advocating for a parliamentary system - or any other form of democracy, next to a socialist economy).

So yes, I can see why defining himself as a Democratic Socialism could make people believe he is a Socialist. He is however very clear about the distinctions between Democratic Socialism and Socialism. This is the ideology of Olof Palme, Trygve Bratteli, etc. Or for a more contemporary example: Ed Miliband not Jeremy Corbyn.
Democratic socialism now also means social democracy, and specifically the mixed economy model of the Nordic countries, in the US. Sanders don't consider himself a capitalist, he is funded by the people & labor unions for the most part. He is even quite supportive of worker co-ops. Yes in a scholarly narrow way he might be a "capitalist".
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#15212

Post by Dolwphin » August 23rd, 2019, 2:25 pm

Lakigigar wrote:
August 23rd, 2019, 1:17 pm
Moulton drops out, warning the party how far-left it is going and that it will be harder to defeat Trump.

Well BYEEEEEE, won't miss you.
21 candidates left ... :guns:
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#15213

Post by GruesomeTwosome » August 23rd, 2019, 2:32 pm

Moulton? Fuck, I don't even know who that is. :shrug: I imagine I'm not alone in that more people probably know who he is now after his dropping-out announcement than while he was actually "running."
Last edited by GruesomeTwosome on August 23rd, 2019, 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#15214

Post by St. Gloede » August 23rd, 2019, 2:34 pm

The point was not to make the claim that Sanders is right-wing in any sense, simply to point out that he is not advocating in favour of replacing the capitalist economy with a socialist economy.

If he was listed in the "moderate" category in the slide above - with all others listed as opposed, I would have had no issue with it. It is just really silly toi list Liberals as Socialists and an ultra moderate Democratic Socialist as "extreme" - by any standard.

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#15215

Post by xianjiro » August 23rd, 2019, 10:56 pm

Quote of the day when someone I know was asked what issues matter most in the 2020 election cycle:
defeat Trump and avoid socialism
(source withheld)

The distinctions are all well and good for us interested in politics and economic theory, but I still really believe that for the swath of 'middle America' who are considered 'swing voters', these distinctions aren't relevant. The choice, as they see it, is between the great system we have today and life in the USSR. We can argue with them about 'Scandisocialism' and 'social democracy', but at the end of the day, too many Americans are simply put off by the very idea of socialism. Thus why the Rs want to paint all Ds as 'socialist' and you-know-who as the only capitalist alternative.

And on to the fascist front, BBC is reporting:
"Our great American companies are hereby ordered to immediately start looking for an alternative to China," Mr Trump tweeted earlier on Friday.
Of course, for now, this is just empty rhetoric, but I can hypothesize how he could use both executive action and federal rules to put teeth into such an 'order.'

Markets are not happy and while I think most will shrug this off as yet more ravings of a madman, we'll have to wait and see what happens next.

Liked this quote from Yahoo Finance
"It is mind-boggling," said Ken Polcari, managing principal at Butcher Joseph Asset Management in New York. "On one day (Trump) tells you everything is going great with China and today he is saying everyone get out of China."

"That is why the market is taking the most recent dive south is just because of (Trump's) tweets," Polcari added. "Not because of Jackson Hole or anything Powell said. It's all driven by the anxiety and it's Friday and a lot can happen over the weekend."
Further, his attack on Powell is so bigly unpresidented. I'm no longer willing to bet the markets won't view Shithole as too big a risk: keep this sort of stuff up much longer and their love of his free-wheeling, outside-the-beltwayrealm-of-sanity style will start to wear thin. It probably isn't too much of a stretch to say that many on Wall Street believe the fed can do no wrong. Will be interesting to see how the markets react if Shithole keeps this up.

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#15216

Post by Cippenham » August 24th, 2019, 5:25 am

The real leaders are the Squad and this is what Trump will attempt to make people believe. If he succeeds the official leader does not matter as the Squad policies are the democrat policies.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.busi ... uad-2019-7

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#15217

Post by Cippenham » August 25th, 2019, 3:03 pm

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -stop.html

Joe Biden does not even know where he is 😃

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#15218

Post by Kublai Khan » August 25th, 2019, 8:25 pm



Yeah, that didn't happen. Nobody asked him those things.

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#15219

Post by xianjiro » August 26th, 2019, 12:07 am

Wonder how those who were unenthused about supporting Hillary will feel about Uncle Joe.

My dislike of him spans decades - centuries even.

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#15220

Post by Lakigigar » August 26th, 2019, 12:17 pm

We will never support Biden! Never submit to Uncle Joe. Stay true to your principles! Bernie is my bro, Ojeda is my bestie, Yang is my gangstaboy and AOC is my queen.

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#15221

Post by Dolwphin » August 26th, 2019, 4:12 pm

Lakigigar wrote:
August 26th, 2019, 12:17 pm
We will never support Biden! Never submit to Uncle Joe. Stay true to your principles! Bernie is my bro, Ojeda is my bestie, Yang is my gangstaboy and AOC is my queen.
His name is Handsy Uncle Joseph. :poshclap:
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#15222

Post by Kublai Khan » August 26th, 2019, 5:20 pm

Lakigigar wrote:
August 26th, 2019, 12:17 pm
We will never support Biden! Never submit to Uncle Joe. Stay true to your principles! Bernie is my bro, Ojeda is my bestie, Yang is my gangstaboy and AOC is my queen.
You don't live here, though. So none of that matters.

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#15223

Post by Dolwphin » August 26th, 2019, 5:49 pm

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#15224

Post by St. Gloede » August 27th, 2019, 7:18 am

Now that is a beautiful sight.

(Still scary that Biden is in an almost 3 way tie, but let's hope he keeps talking - he needs to spread his message far and wide)

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#15225

Post by xianjiro » August 27th, 2019, 8:08 am

alas, we've seen what endless wagging of one's tongue gets one with political ambitions

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#15226

Post by Dolwphin » August 27th, 2019, 11:35 am

Some TMZ news.

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#15227

Post by Kublai Khan » August 27th, 2019, 8:40 pm

The FEC is basically gutted and toothless at this point.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 124236001/

2020 is going to be a shit-show of unchecked corruption. Goddamn Trump

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#15228

Post by Dolwphin » August 27th, 2019, 8:58 pm

is that the agency with 3 GOP, 3 Dem lackeys who never convict anybody?
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#15229

Post by Kublai Khan » August 27th, 2019, 9:16 pm

The Republican majority in the Senate has been hamstringing it for years. By law, they are limited to a maximum of 3 of any particular party, but they've been running with only 4 for a while. One of them is resigning in September so they can't even form their minimum quorum of 4 members agreeing.

Republicans yell about voter fraud a lot, but actively take down the watchdog agency.

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#15230

Post by sebby » August 29th, 2019, 1:54 am

Was resigned to having to vote for Kamala or Joe, but the cream is rising to the top. Either Warren or Bernie would be fucking great.

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#15231

Post by Cocoa » August 29th, 2019, 3:40 am

Kirsten Gillibrand dropped out today after not qualifying for the next debate. She has been my #1 for probably 99% of the presidential primary race. She's going to focus on helping to flip the Senate and get women elected (l)

Now my order of preference is
1. Kamala Harris
2. Amy Klobuchar
3. Beto O'Rouke
4. Julián Castro
(and I guess Booker would be my fifth if I'm making a top five, but I don't see myself supporting him unless all the others I support drop out which is unlikely to happen)

My number two can possibly change within the next few months. I doubt Kamala Harris would be replaced by someone else as my number one.

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#15232

Post by Cippenham » August 29th, 2019, 3:57 am

I hope Joe Biden is the candidate. In a recent speech he couldn’t remember Obama’s name. It would be amusing if he won.

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#15233

Post by Onderhond » August 29th, 2019, 6:36 am

Cippenham wrote:
August 29th, 2019, 3:57 am
I hope Joe Biden is the candidate. In a recent speech he couldn’t remember Obama’s name. It would be amusing if he won.
I think we've seen enough "amusing" politicians now, time to get some actual qualified people in charge again. I'm a bit bored of all these clowns hogging the news with their stupidities.
Last edited by Onderhond on August 29th, 2019, 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#15234

Post by xianjiro » August 29th, 2019, 7:17 am

Onderhond wrote:
August 29th, 2019, 6:36 am
Cippenham wrote:
August 29th, 2019, 3:57 am
I hope Joe Biden is the candidate. In a recent speech he couldn’t remember Obama’s name. It would be amusing if he won.
I think we've seen enough "amusing" politicians now, time to get some actual qualified people in charge again. I'm a bit bored of Al these clowns hogging the news with their stupidities.
:poshclap: amen

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#15235

Post by 3eyes » August 29th, 2019, 11:05 am

I just don't have the energy to follow the Democratic circus. I'll vote for whoever they pick but I hope Howard Schultz doesn't get into the act.

Meanwhile, I wrote this a couple days ago (Tune: America the beautiful)

Though skies and seams are overcast,
and also epic films,
they can’t compare with all the ghast-
ly happenings in the realms
of You-Know-Who. I want to sleep
till this testosterone-
polluted narcissistic creep
is truly overthrown.
:run: STILL the Gaffer!

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#15236

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » August 29th, 2019, 12:23 pm

No offense Cocoa but you confuse me. You praised Kamala for her left wing views but you seem to hate the more left candidates. Kamala is the worst in that regard as her opinion and policies depend on who she's talking to. Amy is one of the most centrist/right-wing candidates. Beto is a laughing stock and I don't think he expressed an opinion yet except wanting everything to work for everyone.

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#15237

Post by Dolwphin » August 29th, 2019, 2:23 pm

Kirsten Gillibrand drops out. 20 candidates left.
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#15238

Post by xianjiro » August 29th, 2019, 7:24 pm

3eyes wrote:
August 29th, 2019, 11:05 am
I just don't have the energy to follow the Democratic circus. I'll vote for whoever they pick but I hope Howard Schultz doesn't get into the act.

Meanwhile, I wrote this a couple days ago (Tune: America the beautiful)

Though skies and seams are overcast,
and also epic films,
they can’t compare with all the ghast-
ly happenings in the realms
of You-Know-Who. I want to sleep
till this testosterone-
polluted narcissistic creep
is truly overthrown.
:poshclap: amen

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#15239

Post by Cippenham » August 29th, 2019, 7:50 pm

A poem for Trump

Roses are red
Like, so red
So red you won’t even believe that they’re real roses
Trust me, I know roses
And those roses are red

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#15240

Post by 3eyes » August 29th, 2019, 9:33 pm

Cippenham wrote:
August 29th, 2019, 7:50 pm
A poem for Trump

Roses are red
Like, so red
So red you won’t even believe that they’re real roses
Trust me, I know roses
And those roses are red
And they wouldn't be red without me
:run: STILL the Gaffer!

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