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US Politics thread

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Re: US Politics thread

#15161

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » August 21st, 2019, 4:57 pm

Well Cipp quote one of the posts so I had to see it.

I should note that centrism is just being right wing but they are scared of the ramifications that come with it. Actual neutrality when it comes to politics is impossible. If you declare neutrality for both sides, the one with the most power comes out on top. This also ends up being the right-wing, or the oppressor. I mean, Cipp, who is part of the right, has praised matthew's points multiple times, even saying they should be a writer. Doesn't that say enough?

Although there could be a point made that all sides have their merits, I believe that's not the case with the right. The only thing in theory that I could support is the right's support for small businesses. However, in practice that does not happen. When they declare tax cuts, it's actually cutting the tax that is placed on the top. What they fail to realize is that it's a progressive tax system, so the small business were already doing fine in regards to taxes. How do I know this? I literally did the accounting for small businesses for a few years.

The perfect example of this is Doug Ford, the premiere for my Ontario, and one of the worst politicians I've ever seen. The liberal party was planning on increasing the minimum wage from $14 to $15. The conservatives decided not to do this. Instead, they got rid of provincial tax on minimum wage earners. Sounds good? Well, someone actually did the the math, and they found that raising the minimum wage to $15 would result in that earner making more money. The right always cuts taxes to look like the white knight, when in fact they are actually finding ways to save money.

This brings me to capitalism. It can actually work in theory if it's perfect competition. Many small businesses going against each other so they have to be imaginative to differentiate their products from others. But, do you know who the right supports in this case? The largest companies. They cut regulations, so the biggest ones can simply do acquisitions with other companies to the point that they become a capitalist monopoly. The internet services in America is the perfect example. There are areas where there is literally only one company providing internet. Thanks to net neutrality being down, they can literally do whatever they want and you can't do anything about it. What are they going too? Making short-term profits by far the highest priority.

This brings me to a question that some may say? Then why are you a communist Arthur? They will have full government control over companies, and since it's a monopoly they have free reign to do whatever they want. If they have the interest of the people as opposed to short-term profits, then I believe it will be successful in the end.

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#15162

Post by matthewscott8 » August 21st, 2019, 5:37 pm

You have turned the false dichotomy into an artform.

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#15163

Post by Cippenham » August 21st, 2019, 5:43 pm

I don’t regard Matthew as right wing at all, he is liberal , is that not right. He almost convinced me to believe global warming..😁

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#15164

Post by Cippenham » August 21st, 2019, 5:45 pm

Slightly off US Politics but in the American continent, are the conservatives going to win in Canada?

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#15165

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » August 21st, 2019, 5:48 pm

Cippenham wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 5:45 pm
Slightly off US Politics but in the American continent, are the conservatives going to win in Canada?
Probably. Not as bad as Doug Ford at least. He wants to recriminalize marijuana. I know you don't have a problem with that, but my main issue is that he admitted to smoking a lot in the past. A complete hypocrite.

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#15166

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » August 21st, 2019, 6:00 pm

Cippenham wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 5:43 pm
I don’t regard Matthew as right wing at all, he is liberal , is that not right. He almost convinced me to believe global warming..😁
I actually do believe that liberalism is part of the right. Especially classic liberalism. The political compass actually called Trudeau part of the right-wing as well. More evidence of this is Sargon of Akkad. He considers himself to be a classic liberal, yet ended up joining a far-right party.

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#15167

Post by matthewscott8 » August 21st, 2019, 6:11 pm

Cippenham wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 5:43 pm
I don’t regard Matthew as right wing at all, he is liberal , is that not right. He almost convinced me to believe global warming..😁
I am a very frustrated left-leaning liberal. Have been watching every play turn to ashes. I remember when Blair got into power in the UK, it took the Conservative party 8 years to even understand how it had happened. We're in the same situation here, denial is running very deep, and no-one wants to admit to their ideological mistakes. I have at one point been far enough left to self describe as a Marxist-Leninist.

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#15168

Post by GruesomeTwosome » August 21st, 2019, 6:13 pm

Damn, you Ontarians can't escape those awful Ford brothers. Is there yet another one lined up if Doug ends up like Rob?
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#15169

Post by sebby » August 21st, 2019, 6:32 pm

Cippenham wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 3:04 pm
sebby wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 7:18 am
Cippenham wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 4:24 am
Are there any balanced news sources or honest ones? Much of MSM have left wing activists as journalists just putting out propaganda not based in facts. CNN is a primary example of this and this could be proved by many examples. The same for other sources, more or less. Many have these activists as journalists too. Look at the hilarious meltdown the night of Trumps election. I was watching one and they only admitted very late Trump had won. Channel hopping that night, an Indian news station discussed Trump’s victory many hours earlier. I couldn’t understand why at the time the U S station had its reluctance to admit this.
What you say about "left wing journalist propaganda" is more true of the right. There are (allegedly) apolitical sites out there that gauge the biases and truthfulness of news sources as well as politicians and their statements/tweets/whatever. Right wing sites are typically more biased, less factual, more conspiratorial, etc. Nearly half of republicans still believe that Obama is a secret Muslim for fuck's sake. The Washington Examiner, which you linked earlier, is owned by a right-wing bigoted billionaire and their content mirrors this. They care little for fact-checking or accuracy. PBS and NPR are probably your best bets for transparently unbiased news.

Also, CNN is not the boogeyman you believe it to be. It's just been made out to be by conservatives bc of it's large footprint. Their content is shallow, but far closer to center than a true left-wing news outlet. Any honest outlet will be critical of the many mistakes, lies, and scandals involving Trump, his cabinet, and other Repub politicians over the past few years, and so their answer is not to behave better, but to brainwash their base into believing such news outlets are anti-American and socialist and spreading truly fake news when, ironically, that is what the outlets they retweet and support and so on do very well (Breitbart, infowars, fox news, etc.)
I could provide detailed examples of CNN so called news items that are clearly not news but left wing activist propaganda. But there is no point as it is blindingly obvious.
OK, do it.

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#15170

Post by Cippenham » August 21st, 2019, 6:42 pm

As I said before what is the incentive for people to produce or improve anything under socialism? This deprives the human spirit of full development, everything and everyone is poor, except the ruling party members of course. This at the expense of giving up freedom and human rights.

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#15171

Post by matthewscott8 » August 21st, 2019, 6:45 pm

sebby wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 6:32 pm
Cippenham wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 3:04 pm
sebby wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 7:18 am


What you say about "left wing journalist propaganda" is more true of the right. There are (allegedly) apolitical sites out there that gauge the biases and truthfulness of news sources as well as politicians and their statements/tweets/whatever. Right wing sites are typically more biased, less factual, more conspiratorial, etc. Nearly half of republicans still believe that Obama is a secret Muslim for fuck's sake. The Washington Examiner, which you linked earlier, is owned by a right-wing bigoted billionaire and their content mirrors this. They care little for fact-checking or accuracy. PBS and NPR are probably your best bets for transparently unbiased news.

Also, CNN is not the boogeyman you believe it to be. It's just been made out to be by conservatives bc of it's large footprint. Their content is shallow, but far closer to center than a true left-wing news outlet. Any honest outlet will be critical of the many mistakes, lies, and scandals involving Trump, his cabinet, and other Repub politicians over the past few years, and so their answer is not to behave better, but to brainwash their base into believing such news outlets are anti-American and socialist and spreading truly fake news when, ironically, that is what the outlets they retweet and support and so on do very well (Breitbart, infowars, fox news, etc.)
I could provide detailed examples of CNN so called news items that are clearly not news but left wing activist propaganda. But there is no point as it is blindingly obvious.
OK, do it.
there's a wikipedia page devoted to it. "CNN controversies". I'm on a mobile so haven't linked but it is called just that. The main point is that it's hard to discern bias when the news anchor has the same opinions as you do.

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#15172

Post by Cippenham » August 21st, 2019, 6:45 pm

sebby wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 6:32 pm
Cippenham wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 3:04 pm
sebby wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 7:18 am


What you say about "left wing journalist propaganda" is more true of the right. There are (allegedly) apolitical sites out there that gauge the biases and truthfulness of news sources as well as politicians and their statements/tweets/whatever. Right wing sites are typically more biased, less factual, more conspiratorial, etc. Nearly half of republicans still believe that Obama is a secret Muslim for fuck's sake. The Washington Examiner, which you linked earlier, is owned by a right-wing bigoted billionaire and their content mirrors this. They care little for fact-checking or accuracy. PBS and NPR are probably your best bets for transparently unbiased news.

Also, CNN is not the boogeyman you believe it to be. It's just been made out to be by conservatives bc of it's large footprint. Their content is shallow, but far closer to center than a true left-wing news outlet. Any honest outlet will be critical of the many mistakes, lies, and scandals involving Trump, his cabinet, and other Repub politicians over the past few years, and so their answer is not to behave better, but to brainwash their base into believing such news outlets are anti-American and socialist and spreading truly fake news when, ironically, that is what the outlets they retweet and support and so on do very well (Breitbart, infowars, fox news, etc.)
I could provide detailed examples of CNN so called news items that are clearly not news but left wing activist propaganda. But there is no point as it is blindingly obvious.
OK, do it.
why should I, it’s bl.. obvious and on Wikipedia thanks.
Last edited by Cippenham on August 21st, 2019, 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#15173

Post by matthewscott8 » August 21st, 2019, 6:46 pm

It's kind of obvious for example that fox news is full of shit, but the right wing guys will always struggle to see that.

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#15174

Post by Cippenham » August 21st, 2019, 6:46 pm

Trudeau is extreme left liberal to me

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#15175

Post by Cippenham » August 21st, 2019, 6:49 pm

matthewscott8 wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 6:46 pm
It's kind of obvious for example that fox news is full of shit, but the right wing guys will always struggle to see that.
Maybe you are right, I tried to watch it on YouTube, cannot quite connect with except for a few reports

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#15176

Post by sebby » August 21st, 2019, 6:50 pm

matthewscott8 wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 9:00 am

It's my belief that a mature political thinker understands that all sides have their merits.
BOTH SIDES BOTH SIDES BOTH SIDES

Yeah, this argument does not work here. Please stop pretending that it does. Liberal activists are not as violent or fascistic as right wing activists. Biased liberal news sites traffic less in conspiracy and hate speech, and are more true to facts (this is not a "canard" if you care to use the google machine at your fingertips) and science that biased conservative news sites. Republican administrations over the last half century have done terrible, horrible, no good things. Without exception. Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush 1, Bush 2, Trump. Worst you can say about Carter, Clinton, and Obama is that they were somewhere between ineffectual and mediocre. There is no "both sides have their merits" when you are comparing the sniffles with violent diarrhea. Not the same. The US has been somewhere between center-right and far-right for a long time and it has resulted in an absolute quagmire out of which there may be no path.

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#15177

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » August 21st, 2019, 6:53 pm

Cippenham wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 6:42 pm
As I said before what is the incentive for people to produce or improve anything under socialism? This deprives the human spirit of full development, everything and everyone is poor, except the ruling party members of course. This at the expense of giving up freedom and human rights.
For the government: They still have to make enough money to become a stable country.

For the people: Ennui. I'm sure some of them will refuse to work, but, they are already doing that under welfare anyways. Most people need employment to improve their way of life.

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#15178

Post by sebby » August 21st, 2019, 6:59 pm

Cippenham wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 6:45 pm
sebby wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 6:32 pm
Cippenham wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 3:04 pm
I could provide detailed examples of CNN so called news items that are clearly not news but left wing activist propaganda. But there is no point as it is blindingly obvious.
OK, do it.
why should I, it’s bl.. obvious and on Wikipedia thanks.
So you're full of crap, got it. Nice to get some confirmation.

Also, I checked out the wiki page you alluded to, it's about two dozen "controversies" over more than a quarter century. And at least half of them are controversial in that they skew anti-left wing, politically speaking. The fact the CNN is disliked by both the left and right means that they reside somewhere in the center. Just bc knuckleheads like Trump and his minions have painted them to be the Fox News of the left does not make it so.

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#15179

Post by sebby » August 21st, 2019, 7:09 pm

Cippenham wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 6:42 pm
As I said before what is the incentive for people to produce or improve anything under socialism? This deprives the human spirit of full development, everything and everyone is poor, except the ruling party members of course. This at the expense of giving up freedom and human rights.
What does this have to do with US politics? There are no socialists running for president. A democratic socialist is not the same thing as a socialist, and is in fact just about the only class of politician pushing for actual democracy in this country. Tell me again just how poor health and education outcomes are in western nations that provide socialized medicine and cheap/free higher education?

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#15180

Post by Cippenham » August 21st, 2019, 7:22 pm

Bernie Sanders. This was aimed at Arthur aka xxxapathy etc , that is the attitude under socialism. Under a market economy he can be xxxempathy or xxxenthusiasm .

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#15181

Post by Cippenham » August 21st, 2019, 7:24 pm

Education terrible, massively dumbed down compared to before.. Health massively expensive, outcome ok but at great cost.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti ... untry.html

http://www.vernoncoleman.com/notfree.htm

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#15182

Post by Cippenham » August 21st, 2019, 7:39 pm

NHS employs 1.5 million and 60 per cent bureaucrats, 60 per cent of the budget is for staff wages. Singapore outcome for health is way better and cheaper than the NHS.

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#15183

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » August 21st, 2019, 7:46 pm

GruesomeTwosome wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 6:13 pm
Damn, you Ontarians can't escape those awful Ford brothers. Is there yet another one lined up if Doug ends up like Rob?
There was one of the most savage and borderline too mean moments I've ever seen in Canadian politics cause of that. He wants to close down supervised injection sites. The NDP leader said something along the lines of "I'm surprised you want to close them down considering what happened to your brother"

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#15184

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » August 21st, 2019, 7:52 pm

matthewscott8 wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 5:37 pm
You have turned the false dichotomy into an artform.
Was tempted to see this (really gotta stop displaying your posts, and if you could not quote me in future posts so I won't get the notification that would be awesome), but man oh man. Logical fallacy or not, this is such a cop out. At the very least explain how my points lead to this fallacy. I liked the post where you said I accidentally posted a parody LinkedIn account. That's the type of posts I like to see. I made that mistake and am glad you called me out on it. I can't stand everything else though. You always fail to address any of my points, and instead mention points way of left field that have nothing to do with it. "Why do you consider communist atrocities to be done in the name of anti-fascism?" "Well, Mao did a famine, so checkmake Arthur the Commie". In this post I wrote a mini essay in my area of expertise, and you ignore it all with a huge cop out.

This isn't the first time I've seen you do this, and seen you do it with other members as well. Why are you ignoring these points? Do you just have nothing to say against them? I like this thread because I get to practice my frankly poor debating skills, but with you it's like talking to a brick wall. No offense but I can see why RBG blocked this thread.

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#15185

Post by sebby » August 21st, 2019, 9:56 pm

Cippenham wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 7:24 pm
Education terrible, massively dumbed down compared to before.. Health massively expensive, outcome ok but at great cost.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti ... untry.html

http://www.vernoncoleman.com/notfree.htm
Of course health care is massively expensive. It can't not be. But of the things that should be massively expensive, doesn't it top the list? Do you think it's better to live with a system like the US has where a trip to the hospital can ruin you financially for the rest of your life, even if you're insured?

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#15186

Post by Cippenham » August 22nd, 2019, 4:14 am

No I think our system is miles better then the USA. I support the NHS , but there are better systems and cheaper ones. We could do better. The USA system is one of the worst.

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#15187

Post by St. Gloede » August 22nd, 2019, 7:58 am

matthewscott8 wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 3:40 pm
St. Gloede wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 3:37 pm
it a step too far. It's like refusing to talk to Boris Johnson unless he wants to discuss selling Scotland.
Please don't tempt fate! His kleptocratic enterprise already has assets up there.

I was going to reply with some of the following emojis: tehe :D :lol:

But then I realized it was all too real ...

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#15188

Post by matthewscott8 » August 22nd, 2019, 9:40 am

It occurred to me that the Greenland thing might not be as implausible as it sounds. Put it this way, what happens if Trump goes on Twitter tomorrow and says, "Hey citizens of Greenland, how would you all like to become millionaires in 2020, yes ALL of you." So there are 56 thousand citizens of Greenland. If he gives them all a million dollars each, in exchange for all mineral extraction and property development rights, then that would cost 56 billion dollars. Well, that's not much, the US spends more than 10 times that much each year on its military. They could do a plebiscite on it, and then under the UN principles of self-determination, the US would have a good claim to Greenland.

I think this would constitute a catastrophe, but I'm not sure how farfetched it is.

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#15189

Post by St. Gloede » August 22nd, 2019, 10:50 am

A contract giving a country the right to select resources of another (for a specific amount of time, say 100 years) is not too uncommon - and would be a very sane proposal and not at all farfetched.

(But very, very different from purchasing the autonomous country Greenland from Denmark)

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#15190

Post by Cippenham » August 22nd, 2019, 11:13 am

If Denmark do not agree can they not block a plebiscite

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#15191

Post by peeptoad » August 22nd, 2019, 12:51 pm

Inslee is out (officially)...

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#15192

Post by Dolwphin » August 22nd, 2019, 2:31 pm

Jay Inslee finishes #23 in the 2020 Democratic Primary.

Castro becomes 10th candidate to qualify for 3rd & 4rth debate. Steyer need 1 more poll, Gabbard needs 2, Gillibrand needs 3.
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#15193

Post by Cippenham » August 22nd, 2019, 2:43 pm

Biden slurs his speech, says Kennedy’s were killed in the 70s not 60s. He may have dementia perhaps. He needs to stand down, he is no way suitable to be President.

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#15194

Post by GruesomeTwosome » August 22nd, 2019, 2:56 pm

You're right, we can't have a president of the United Shtesh slurring his speech.
I’m to remember every man I've seen fall into a plate of spaghetti???

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#15195

Post by xianjiro » August 22nd, 2019, 4:19 pm

Biden's always been a bit covfefe with the details when speaking. Nothing new to see here, folks. Move along and enjoy the other candidates please.

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#15196

Post by Cippenham » August 22nd, 2019, 5:09 pm

Look I agree Trump is not now suitable, but Biden is worse before he potentially starts. You cannot now get away with the wife taking over like with Woodrow Wilson, the first women President unofficially 😀

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/woo ... son-stroke

If Melania can take over unofficially it would be interesting, maybe she has a different attitude to immigration..but it’s not going to happen nowadays.

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#15197

Post by Lakigigar » August 22nd, 2019, 8:34 pm

Buying Greenland isn't that farfetched. It's actually a genius idea from a neutral perspective, although i doubt it would be good for the climate, but all the ice will melt eventually.

I support Mark Kelly (Arizona), Doug Jones (Alabama), Mike Johnston (Colorado), Ed Markey (Massachussets), Cory Booker (New Jersey) and Jeff Merkley (Oregon) in their senate races in 2020!

Arizona is probably one of the most interesting states in 2020 with a senate race and a presidential race hard to predict. I think it narrowly goes with Trump while electing Mark Kelly for senate, but it could easily be the other way.

Florida (as always), Arizona, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and North Carolina are the best states to spend money in for Democrats. Texas, Maine, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, Colorado and Iowa are interesting as well. I would say Ohio is lost and not as important as they don't have important downballot races in 2020. Virginia is safe as well. It might be a good idea to also spend some money in Alabama (out of respect for Doug Jones) and Kansas (weak and unpopular republican frontrunner Kobach while Democrats have a good bench).

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#15198

Post by Lakigigar » August 22nd, 2019, 8:47 pm

Image

Image

My ratings. Dems take the White House back, and gain two senate seats. Few changes in the house probably.

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#15199

Post by Cippenham » August 22nd, 2019, 9:14 pm

Dream on Lakigaar, this time Trump will spend big, last time outspent 2 to 1 and still won. Also the guy who correctly predicted last 9 presidential elections says Trump will win, unless he is impeached as that will lose him votes even if not removed. The guy making that prediction is Allan Lichtman, who is a Democrat and an academic.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 37466.html

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#15200

Post by Lakigigar » August 23rd, 2019, 8:51 am

Trump definitely has a chance, but I think this time Democrats are favoured, but it will be closer than people will expect, so it's important to turn out and vote D, (unless it's Joe Biden).

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