British Politics Lounge

[xianjiro]

On 23 June 2016, the UK will vote if it will remain in the EU or leave. This is the question: Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Should the UK stay or should it go now?

edit 9 July 2018: Here are the poll results from the old forum host

Brexit
Yes! Wake me up before you go-go. 6 (12.2%)
Yes and so should everyone. Burnin' down the house. 7 (14.3%)
No. Breaking up is hard to do. 30 (61.2%)
Who cares. Everything sux today. 6 (12.2%)
Total Votes: 49

Now that voters want to leave the EU, do you believe Brexit will actually happen?
Yes 1 (6.7%)
Yes, but there'll be some catch/negotiations/change 6 (40%)
No, negotiations will find a way to keep the UK 2 (13.3%)
No, something in the UK will scuttle the plan 3 (20%)
No 0 (0%)
idk/don't care/it's anybody's guess 3 (20%)
Total Votes: 15

[Limedebois]

UK should leave us alone.

EU was more focused on liberal economy than social and cultural matters because of the UK while they don't even want to be part of the euro. Make yourself comfortable be alongside Norway. Stop pretending be part of the party and then no. Just leave it and let Scotland joins us. Renew with old European footballers ratio and make a superleague football with three English good players. And start paying taxes for your houses in the French countryside. Thank you and goodbye UK, or I should say England... If Scotland leaves your own onion soup, say long live the queen and hello (London) City.

EU will walk faster without a stone in its shoe.

[bal3x]

Breaking up is hard to do.LOL, indeed it is since there are actually no clear rules about how that would be done! You can get in, but you cannot get out..but this is a largely moot point anyway, the result has already been decided and not by the British people. That said generally I would imagine UK does want to stay in just to have some say over what's going on in Brussels, they have actually managed to negotiate quite a lot of concessions over the years.

[Cippenham]

all foreigners stay out of this it has NOTHING To do with you !! I say go of course, but it won't happen yet but will happen later somehow some way we will find a way for freedom..

[bal3x]

all foreigners stay out of this it has NOTHING To do with you !!

Oh, it has a LOT to do with foreigners...
https://www.privacytools.io/#ukusa

[Rich]

all foreigners stay out of this it has NOTHING To do with you !! I say go of course, but it won't happen yet but will happen later somehow some way we will find a way for freedom..

The butterfly effect would like to have a word.

[AdamH]

I'll certainly be voting for the UK to stay in the EU. Of course, much of the anti-EU feeling comes from people who are anti-immigration and/or xenophobic but probably best to not open up that can of worms.

[Mulholland]

I'll be voting to stay. I've always felt myself as being more 'European' then 'British' anyway.

I saw some stats about the voting and it looks like at the moment it's London, Scotland and Northern Ireland that would vote to stay with Wales and the rest of England having a 'leave' majority.

The fact that Wales has some of the poorest areas in Western Europe and would go belly up without EU subsidies just boggles my brain.

Then again all we get is immigration this, bendy bananas that. The fact that the historically warlike nations of the UK, Spain, France and Germany have been co-operating and not kicking the shit out of each other since the EU's inception never gets mentioned.

[Cippenham]

I'll certainly be voting for the UK to stay in the EU. Of course, much of the anti-EU feeling comes from people who are anti-immigration and/or xenophobic but probably best to not open up that can of worms.

That is not logical given a Brexit would mean a chance of another Scottish independence vote, well I suppose Scotland does not want freedom or believe it can survive. Where is the spirit of Robert the Bruce!? It's nothing to do with immigration, just democratic wish to make your own decisions for your own country.

[Mulholland]

It's nothing to do with immigration, just democratic wish to make your own decisions for your own country.

Tell that to headlines like this:



Seriously though, if we weren't so hot on political correctness in this country the racism would be a lot more blatant in the campaigns. It speaks to our basest 'us vs them' urges after all.

[Rich]

I'll certainly be voting for the UK to stay in the EU. Of course, much of the anti-EU feeling comes from people who are anti-immigration and/or xenophobic but probably best to not open up that can of worms.

That is not logical given a Brexit would mean a chance of another Scottish independence vote, well I suppose Scotland does not want freedom or believe it can survive. Where is the spirit of Robert the Bruce!? It's nothing to do with immigration, just democratic wish to make your own decisions for your own country.

Robert the Bruce didn't do all good things. He did try to rule over Ireland. He also raided northern England and a mini-famine came as a result.

[Cippenham]

I'll certainly be voting for the UK to stay in the EU. Of course, much of the anti-EU feeling comes from people who are anti-immigration and/or xenophobic but probably best to not open up that can of worms.

That is not logical given a Brexit would mean a chance of another Scottish independence vote, well I suppose Scotland does not want freedom or believe it can survive. Where is the spirit of Robert the Bruce!? It's nothing to do with immigration, just democratic wish to make your own decisions for your own country.

Robert the Bruce didn't do all good things. He did try to rule over Ireland. He also raided northern England and a mini-famine came as a result.

Oh no good to anyone than Scotland,, for me it's nothing to do with immigration, all to do with sovereignty, I would rather have a socialist government elected than be in the EU, that's what I mean.

[Rich]

He also overthrew my ancestors (the Clan Comyn) and made us flee to Ireland...*shakes fist*

[Local Hero -- aka MestnyiGeroi]

He also overthrew my ancestors (the Clan Comyn) and made us flee to Ireland...*shakes fist*

And he had two first names, along with the same middle name as Attila and Winnie. *shakes both fists*

[Lonewolf2003]

UK should leave us alone.

EU was more focused on liberal economy than social and cultural matters because of the UK while they don't even want to be part of the euro. Make yourself comfortable be alongside Norway. Stop pretending be part of the party and then no. Just leave it and let Scotland joins us. Renew with old European footballers ratio and make a superleague football with three English good players. And start paying taxes for your houses in the French countryside. Thank you and goodbye UK, or I should say England... If Scotland leaves your own onion soup, say long live the queen and hello (London) City.

EU will walk faster without a stone in its shoe.

I agree. Brittain should leave so the rest of us can move forward with unity without the whining member that wants concessions and exception every time.

[Mulholland]

UK should leave us alone.

EU was more focused on liberal economy than social and cultural matters because of the UK while they don't even want to be part of the euro. Make yourself comfortable be alongside Norway. Stop pretending be part of the party and then no. Just leave it and let Scotland joins us. Renew with old European footballers ratio and make a superleague football with three English good players. And start paying taxes for your houses in the French countryside. Thank you and goodbye UK, or I should say England... If Scotland leaves your own onion soup, say long live the queen and hello (London) City.

EU will walk faster without a stone in its shoe.

I agree. Brittain should leave so the rest of us can move forward with unity without the whining member that wants concessions and exception every time.

Oh god is this how we look in the rest of Europe

[bal3x]

UK should leave us alone.

EU was more focused on liberal economy than social and cultural matters because of the UK while they don't even want to be part of the euro. Make yourself comfortable be alongside Norway. Stop pretending be part of the party and then no. Just leave it and let Scotland joins us. Renew with old European footballers ratio and make a superleague football with three English good players. And start paying taxes for your houses in the French countryside. Thank you and goodbye UK, or I should say England... If Scotland leaves your own onion soup, say long live the queen and hello (London) City.

EU will walk faster without a stone in its shoe.

I agree. Brittain should leave so the rest of us can move forward with unity without the whining member that wants concessions and exception every time.

Oh god is this how we look in the rest of Europe

I do recall someone saying the UK joined the EU to destroy it from within The Brits have been pulling a lot of crap over the years, that's a fact. Oh well, "unity" is indeed just a word, there really is no unity. And how can there be real unity with so much differences among the member states? As has been said before, the idea behind EU has been a good one and is has certainly brought many positive things to Europe, but there have also been way too many mistakes along the way.

[metaller]

UK should leave us alone.

EU was more focused on liberal economy than social and cultural matters because of the UK while they don't even want to be part of the euro. Make yourself comfortable be alongside Norway. Stop pretending be part of the party and then no. Just leave it and let Scotland joins us. Renew with old European footballers ratio and make a superleague football with three English good players. And start paying taxes for your houses in the French countryside. Thank you and goodbye UK, or I should say England... If Scotland leaves your own onion soup, say long live the queen and hello (London) City.

EU will walk faster without a stone in its shoe.

I agree. Brittain should leave so the rest of us can move forward with unity without the whining member that wants concessions and exception every time.

Oh god is this how we look in the rest of Europe

Yeah, in Germany the perception sure is that the Brits seem to be sitting on a kinda high horse, with an attitude that the rest of the EU should be happy that they kinda have the grace to kinda, a little bit be a part of the "community". Therefore they try to press more out of the EU than any other member and don't have to play by the same rules.

[AdamH]

I'll certainly be voting for the UK to stay in the EU. Of course, much of the anti-EU feeling comes from people who are anti-immigration and/or xenophobic but probably best to not open up that can of worms.

That is not logical given a Brexit would mean a chance of another Scottish independence vote, well I suppose Scotland does not want freedom or believe it can survive. Where is the spirit of Robert the Bruce!? It's nothing to do with immigration, just democratic wish to make your own decisions for your own country.

I'm hoping this entire post, and not just the Robert the Bruce part, is a joke. I find it hard to tell with you.

I support independence so I vote for the SNP (the main party who support independence) and I voted yes in the Scottish independence referendum.

I want the UK to stay in the EU so I will vote for the UK to stay in the EU. I am completely against the UK leaving the EU. Scotland will vote against leaving the EU so if there is an overall UK vote in favour of leaving then it would give an argument in favour of independence but I certainly don't go against strong views I hold for the sake of trying to create a situation where Scottish independence is more likely. The nonsense about Scotland not wanting "freedom" or believing it can survive is a bizarre thing to talk about in terms of me voting for the UK to stay in the EU so I'm not really sure how to respond to that part.

I don't believe that your opinion has nothing to do with immigration. I do not believe that at all. I am certain that a large part of the anti-EU feeling comes from anti-immigration and/or xenophobic people and another part is probably about EU laws etc. and the influence they have over the UK. I think there is a lot of scaremongering headlines and articles in tabloid newspapers which attempt to play on people's fears about immigration and the EU and it has a bad influence on things as well.

I hope that the UK votes to stay in the EU. I think that the result will be that we stay.

[Knaldskalle]

I don't know the details about how an EU exit would work (if that comes to be), but is there a chance that Scotland would remain in the EU?

The Kingdom of Denmark consists of three countries, Denmark proper, The Faroe Islands and Greenland. Both The Faroe Islands and Greenland have extensive Home Rule and neither of the two are part of the EU (both decided to leave), while Denmark proper is. I was wondering if a similar arrangement might happen with Scotland being in the EU while the rest leave (or some other combination of in/out)?

[AdamH]

I don't know the details about how an EU exit would work (if that comes to be), but is there a chance that Scotland would remain in the EU?

The Kingdom of Denmark consists of three countries, Denmark proper, The Faroe Islands and Greenland. Both The Faroe Islands and Greenland have extensive Home Rule and neither of the two are part of the EU (both decided to leave), while Denmark proper is. I was wondering if a similar arrangement might happen with Scotland being in the EU while the rest leave (or some other combination of in/out)?

I can't see that happening.

[ChrisReynolds]

I don't know the details about how an EU exit would work (if that comes to be), but is there a chance that Scotland would remain in the EU?

The Kingdom of Denmark consists of three countries, Denmark proper, The Faroe Islands and Greenland. Both The Faroe Islands and Greenland have extensive Home Rule and neither of the two are part of the EU (both decided to leave), while Denmark proper is. I was wondering if a similar arrangement might happen with Scotland being in the EU while the rest leave (or some other combination of in/out)?

All countries in the UK would exit together if Brexit happens. Support for EU membership in Scotland is high, and the SNP have said that if Brexit happens, then that would constitute a material change that would require another referendum on Scotland's continued membership of the UK, with the intent of Scotland applying to join the EU if the vote was for independence this time. Scotland has recently acquired a very high deficit (10% of its GDP), and that would need to be brought much lower (the EU budget requirements for deficits are supposed to be 3%), so EU membership be some way off if Scotland did become independent, but I expect it would join eventually.

Meanwhile, back in the present, the wheels seem to be coming off the Brexit campaign. Not only is Boris digging himself deeper with his argument with Obama, but The Mail, which has hitherto been supporting Brexit now seems to be lending a hand in attacking the Brexit camp. This was the front page on Sunday:



Yet Boris didn't really say that:

Barack Obama is entitled to his view and he is an honoured guest, but it is ridiculous to warn that the UK will be at the back of the queue for a free trade deal.

The UK has never been able to do a free trade deal with the US in the last 43 years - because we are in the EU!

Any negotiations are entirely in the hands of the European Commission and only 3.6 per cent of commission officials actually come from this country.

Negotiations are held up by absurd problems like the French restrictions on Hollywood movies or Greek hostility to American feta cheese.

No one in the last 48 hours has come close to answering my point - it is very weird that the US should be telling the UK to do something they would not dream of doing themselves in a million years.

I presume somewhere in a backroom, Lord Rothermere (Daily Mail owner) has been convinced to change tack.

[Local Hero -- aka MestnyiGeroi]

I don't know the details about how an EU exit would work (if that comes to be), but is there a chance that Scotland would remain in the EU?

The Kingdom of Denmark consists of three countries, Denmark proper, The Faroe Islands and Greenland. Both The Faroe Islands and Greenland have extensive Home Rule and neither of the two are part of the EU (both decided to leave), while Denmark proper is. I was wondering if a similar arrangement might happen with Scotland being in the EU while the rest leave (or some other combination of in/out)?

All countries in the UK would exit together if Brexit happens. Support for EU membership in Scotland is high, and the SNP have said that if Brexit happens, then that would constitute a material change that would require another referendum on Scotland's continued membership of the UK, with the intent of Scotland applying to join the EU if the vote was for independence this time. Scotland has recently acquired a very high deficit (10% of its GDP), and that would need to be brought much lower (the EU budget requirements for deficits are supposed to be 3%), so EU membership be some way off if Scotland did become independent, but I expect it would join eventually.

Meanwhile, back in the present, the wheels seem to be coming off the Brexit campaign. Not only is Boris digging himself deeper with his argument with Obama, but The Mail, which has hitherto been supporting Brexit now seems to be lending a hand in attacking the Brexit camp. This was the front page on Sunday:



Yet Boris didn't really say that:

Barack Obama is entitled to his view and he is an honoured guest, but it is ridiculous to warn that the UK will be at the back of the queue for a free trade deal.

The UK has never been able to do a free trade deal with the US in the last 43 years - because we are in the EU!

Any negotiations are entirely in the hands of the European Commission and only 3.6 per cent of commission officials actually come from this country.

Negotiations are held up by absurd problems like the French restrictions on Hollywood movies or Greek hostility to American feta cheese.

No one in the last 48 hours has come close to answering my point - it is very weird that the US should be telling the UK to do something they would not dream of doing themselves in a million years.

I presume somewhere in a backroom, Lord Rothermere (Daily Mail owner) has been convinced to change tack.

But didn't Johnson also cite Obama as "part-Kenyan" as an explanation for his motivations?

[xianjiro]

scratching head - and to think, I could have had one of those gawd-awful tacky brooches! (though I think we call them broaches on this side of the Atlantic Alliance)

Interesting to read some new points of view on this - thanks for chiming in

[bal3x]

only 3.6 per cent of commission officials actually come from this country.

What did Boris want - 90%?! LMAO. This fella always seemed to me a rather strange pick for a possible PM job...

[Local Hero -- aka MestnyiGeroi]

By the way, not precisely germane but loosely relevant:

Consider the case of Lebanon. It is a country of 4 million, and in the last two years it has received 2 million refugees. Its public school system had 250,000 Lebanese students, but then had to accommodate 450,000 refugee students. The mind boggles.

[Lammetje]

He also overthrew my ancestors (the Clan Comyn) and made us flee to Ireland...*shakes fist*

And he had two first names, along with the same middle name as Attila and Winnie. *shakes both fists*

Again, glad to have you back on the forum, Local!

[Mulholland]

only 3.6 per cent of commission officials actually come from this country.

What did Boris want - 90%?! LMAO. This fella always seemed to me a rather strange pick for a possible PM job...

He used to be entertainingly incompetent and now he's just showing how power hungry is. I remember a time when he was pro-EU, but now that there is a chance that a leave vote could oust Cameron he suddenly changes tact.

I know he's a politician so I shouldn't be surprised... but it's sickening. At lease Michael Gove is a consistent arsehole.

[Cippenham]

UK should leave us alone.

EU was more focused on liberal economy than social and cultural matters because of the UK while they don't even want to be part of the euro. Make yourself comfortable be alongside Norway. Stop pretending be part of the party and then no. Just leave it and let Scotland joins us. Renew with old European footballers ratio and make a superleague football with three English good players. And start paying taxes for your houses in the French countryside. Thank you and goodbye UK, or I should say England... If Scotland leaves your own onion soup, say long live the queen and hello (London) City.

EU will walk faster without a stone in its shoe.

I agree. Brittain should leave so the rest of us can move forward with unity without the whining member that wants concessions and exception every time.

Well said but I think project fear will win at the moment

[xianjiro]

The only good arsehole is a consistent arsehole?

[Cippenham]

only 3.6 per cent of commission officials actually come from this country.

What did Boris want - 90%?! LMAO. This fella always seemed to me a rather strange pick for a possible PM job...

Could be another Churchill who knows..

[Cippenham]

I don't know the details about how an EU exit would work (if that comes to be), but is there a chance that Scotland would remain in the EU?

The Kingdom of Denmark consists of three countries, Denmark proper, The Faroe Islands and Greenland. Both The Faroe Islands and Greenland have extensive Home Rule and neither of the two are part of the EU (both decided to leave), while Denmark proper is. I was wondering if a similar arrangement might happen with Scotland being in the EU while the rest leave (or some other combination of in/out)?

All countries in the UK would exit together if Brexit happens. Support for EU membership in Scotland is high, and the SNP have said that if Brexit happens, then that would constitute a material change that would require another referendum on Scotland's continued membership of the UK, with the intent of Scotland applying to join the EU if the vote was for independence this time. Scotland has recently acquired a very high deficit (10% of its GDP), and that would need to be brought much lower (the EU budget requirements for deficits are supposed to be 3%), so EU membership be some way off if Scotland did become independent, but I expect it would join eventually.

Meanwhile, back in the present, the wheels seem to be coming off the Brexit campaign. Not only is Boris digging himself deeper with his argument with Obama, but The Mail, which has hitherto been supporting Brexit now seems to be lending a hand in attacking the Brexit camp. This was the front page on Sunday:



Yet Boris didn't really say that:

Barack Obama is entitled to his view and he is an honoured guest, but it is ridiculous to warn that the UK will be at the back of the queue for a free trade deal.

The UK has never been able to do a free trade deal with the US in the last 43 years - because we are in the EU!

Any negotiations are entirely in the hands of the European Commission and only 3.6 per cent of commission officials actually come from this country.

Negotiations are held up by absurd problems like the French restrictions on Hollywood movies or Greek hostility to American feta cheese.

No one in the last 48 hours has come close to answering my point - it is very weird that the US should be telling the UK to do something they would not dream of doing themselves in a million years.

I presume somewhere in a backroom, Lord Rothermere (Daily Mail owner) has been convinced to change tack.

But didn't Johnson also cite Obama as "part-Kenyan" as an explanation for his motivations?

Yes

[Cippenham]

I don't know the details about how an EU exit would work (if that comes to be), but is there a chance that Scotland would remain in the EU?

The Kingdom of Denmark consists of three countries, Denmark proper, The Faroe Islands and Greenland. Both The Faroe Islands and Greenland have extensive Home Rule and neither of the two are part of the EU (both decided to leave), while Denmark proper is. I was wondering if a similar arrangement might happen with Scotland being in the EU while the rest leave (or some other combination of in/out)?

I can't see that happening.

No cos ins will win sadly

[Limedebois]

UKing is dead, R.I.P-an-ham.

[bal3x]

I remember a time when he was pro-EU

Now that you mention it I recall a few years ago seeing him on BBC praising the EU... politicians turning coats like this on key issues really looks very bad. It is in fact the worst kind of politicians. I have more respect for a hardline communist who never changed their opinion rather than someone like this...

[Cippenham]

I remember a time when he was pro-EU

Now that you mention it I recall a few years ago seeing him on BBC praising the EU... politicians turning coats like this on key issues really looks very bad. It is in fact the worst kind of politicians. I have more respect for a hardline communist who never changed their opinion rather than someone like this...

He thinks we should vote out now then negotiate a real deal not a phoney one! He does not now mention this, he is like a film or pop star though, you cannot imagine, he Is not like ordinary politicians.

[xianjiro]

I remember a time when he was pro-EU

Now that you mention it I recall a few years ago seeing him on BBC praising the EU... politicians turning coats like this on key issues really looks very bad. It is in fact the worst kind of politicians. I have more respect for a hardline communist who never changed their opinion rather than someone like this...

I don't know, I believe even politicians can have a change of heart - for the better - and it doesn't even have to come with a price tag. But they have to offer some sort of explanation of how and why their thinking changed.

Case in point, Obama changed from the completely indefensible desire for a 'separate but equal' solution to gay marriage. He said his views had evolved. I'll be honest, I'm not sure I completely trust that statement, maybe he was actually more supportive privately than he felt he could be publicly when he first ran, but then again, maybe this is truly what happened.

I can change my mind when I learn new information - I'm also happy to admit that I've changed my stance. Why can't a politician do the same?

[bal3x]

I remember a time when he was pro-EU

Now that you mention it I recall a few years ago seeing him on BBC praising the EU... politicians turning coats like this on key issues really looks very bad. It is in fact the worst kind of politicians. I have more respect for a hardline communist who never changed their opinion rather than someone like this...

I don't know, I believe even politicians can have a change of heart - for the better - and it doesn't even have to come with a price tag. But they have to offer some sort of explanation of how and why their thinking changed.

Case in point, Obama changed from the completely indefensible desire for a 'separate but equal' solution to gay marriage. He said his views had evolved. I'll be honest, I'm not sure I completely trust that statement, maybe he was actually more supportive privately than he felt he could be publicly when he first ran, but then again, maybe this is truly what happened.

I can change my mind when I learn new information - I'm also happy to admit that I've changed my stance. Why can't a politician do the same?

Sure, in a way you're right, people certainly have the right to change opinions based on new information. However, as far as most of the chameleon turncoat politicians are concerned I'm afraid I need to be more sceptical.. you just cannot be a hardline communist during USSR and a hardline nationalist capitalist the next day USSR does not exist.. there are people jumping from one party to another with completely different programs and ideas. Sorry, but this is not a "change of opinion", this is "going with the flow"... it's actually rather sickening to see people who have no opinion of their own and who are ready to go with the highest bidder/winner.

[xianjiro]

Yes, and even worse are the ones who are 'pro-life' when speaking to a conservative religious group and 'pro-woman' when speaking to feminists.

So yeah, I get what you're saying and it doesn't seem like we really disagree. Politicians who change for the sake of convenience or expediency are scum.

Or, here's the short version: Politicians ... are scum.

[Lonewolf2003]

I agree. Brittain should leave so the rest of us can move forward with unity without the whining member that wants concessions and exception every time.

Oh god is this how we look in the rest of Europe

I do recall someone saying the UK joined the EU to destroy it from within The Brits have been pulling a lot of crap over the years, that's a fact. Oh well, "unity" is indeed just a word, there really is no unity. And how can there be real unity with so much differences among the member states? As has been said before, the idea behind EU has been a good one and is has certainly brought many positive things to Europe, but there have also been way too many mistakes along the way.

I used unity as an exaggeration to underline my point of view. ;)
Of course there are difference between member states and even in states themselves about the EU, its future and policies. But I think there is generally speaking on the continent more consensus, or I should say willingness to reach consensus, on how to move forward than with the British. Who seem to want special treatment because they think they are still so great and powerful and the rest has to be thankful they want to be part of the club.

The U.K. still sees the EU primarily as a trade organization and less as a political one. The differences about the EU on the continent seem to me to stem from the differences in opinion on how much a political organization the EU should be (and how much power the individual member states should have), but there at least seem to be some consensus that it has to be a political organization. While the difference between the UK and the continent is more about the fundemental question if the EU has to be political or strictly trade and economical. (Of course this is generally speaking. There are sentiments to find on the continent as well that the EU should be just an economical organization and there are Brits that do want to a political EU and be part of it.)

So if the EU want to move forward stronger than I believe it has to do so with members that are committed to finding solutions together and not with a member that is only half committed to being in the club and wants some special treatment in it.