British Politics Lounge

[brokenface]

I always tell the truth but the truth hurts like comprehensive education has dummed down our schools and so only private educated people are suitable to be leaders such as in the Labour Party for example. Working people who are bright have much less opportunities than before as a result.

[Pretentious Hipster]

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-c ... rt-n858476

Abortion rates go DOWN when it's legalized, and less women die as a result. Whether you're pro-life or pro-choice, this is the best option.

I also love how the right claims to love these children, but for the poor families that won't have access to abortion, they are stuck with a kid that they can't afford the costs for, and the right wing government is like LOL have fun with that you're on your own.

[Pretentious Hipster]

Death penalty, again through an economic perspective. It costs Pennsylvania $350 million in taxpayer money to take care of them

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/costs

[brokenface]

Yes of course. By the way the new Labour leader other white middle aged middle class private educated man, out of touch so completely with working people who voted conservatives in the last election.

That'll be the conservative party led by Eton and Oxford educated Boris Johnson that they voted for, yes?

[Pretentious Hipster]

Yes of course. By the way the new Labour leader other white middle aged middle class private educated man, out of touch so completely with working people who voted conservatives in the last election.

That'll be the conservative party led by Eton and Oxford educated Boris Johnson that they voted for, yes?

This is what blows my mind the most about the right. Trump is the perfect example. They thought a celebrity billionaire is someone who represents the working class people. Bernie was a carpenter before he became a politician.

[Cippenham]

Yes Al Johnson aka Boris , Eton and Oxford, but his policies were to get Brexit done and to invest in the north of England, and so more appealing than politics appealing to middle class intellectuals and students in London . The Donald had policies to give jobs to working people and to stop the policies appealing to middle class intellectuals and students.

[Cippenham]

Bernie is really old school though so is not a modern politician like we have in the Uk.

[Cippenham]

Death penalty, but we didn’t have death row, no after a very short appeal process the executions should go ahead in a very short time after conviction. It’s not going to happen as we have a liberal left government

[Pretentious Hipster]

Death penalty, but we didn’t have death row, no after a very short appeal process the executions should go ahead in a very short time after conviction. It’s not going to happen as we have a liberal left government

People killed under the name of the government. Sounds quite totalitarian of you

[Cippenham]

If you only have it for the most heinous cases it seems better than putting them in prison. Its not going to happen

[St. Gloede]

I always tell the truth

No, you lie, and you know you lie, you are always actively deceptive.

Case in point: You define Socialism as standard Social Liberalism and claim it always fails but Social Liberal Democracies, and the further to the left alternative of Social Democracies consistently top further right alternatives in living standards, etc.

When this is pointed out you get deceptive and push the fact that Norway has oil. Sweden, Denmark, etc. do not have Norway's oil resources. I.e. YOU LIE! This was a conscious lie.

When pressed: YOU DODGE.

When pressed: You state that Norway's oil and sovereign wealth fund, created thank to collective ownership of oil, makes Norway semi-immune to Financial run.

When pressed on how you just acknowledged that you were wrong and that Socialism protects against economic ruin - you disappear.

You always do.

Sad.

Stop lying.

You must be doing it for the kicks, it is too consistent.

[Knaldskalle]

Death penalty, but we didn’t have death row, no after a very short appeal process the executions should go ahead in a very short time after conviction. It’s not going to happen as we have a liberal left government

And what do you do when you find out that the people you just executed were in fact innocent?

[matthewscott8]

Drug reform has always been opposed by the elderly who take a moral absolutist stance. These are the same people who always turn out in droves to vote. At some point there will be a generational shift and some change can happen. Portugal is a very nice sunny place and factors like that are relevant in rehab. In portiguese rehab programmes they take addicts and offenders to the countryside and get them working on farms. Something that doesn't work as well elsewhere if the climate and behaviours are more inhospitable.

[Cippenham]

Boris Johnson admitted to hospital, I hope he will be ok. Not time to discuss politics here for me until he recovers.

[matthewscott8]

He's just been admitted overnight for tests. No drama.

[Cippenham]

I think it is still not suitable to discuss politics here until we see how he gets on, not for me. I think he may be staying in hospital unfortunately.

[matthewscott8]

He's not an emperor, there's thousands dying every day. Essential more than ever to talk about politics.

[brokenface]

He's not an emperor, there's thousands dying every day. Essential more than ever to talk about politics.

I, for one, am wholeheartedly behind cippenham's personal decision to stop talking about politics. Take as long as you need cipp, if not longer

[Cippenham]

You carry on

[Pretentious Hipster]

[St. Gloede]

"Labour leader Keir Starmer announces ‘urgent investigation’ into leaked party antisemitism report. Report suggested anti-Corbyn officials from the right of the party worked to stop Labour winning so they could change leader." - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... .html?amp

Further to this, Novara Media had access to the report (or a part of it?) two days ago, and released WhatsApp messages from the '17 election with senior members of the Labour Management team, including then general secretary Iain McNicol, actively rooting for a hard Labour defeat, and implications that they worked against the party.

This is on election night when it was clear that rather than Labour losing badly, which they hoped would happen, the exit polls showed a hung parliament:

08/06/2017, 22:24 – Julie Lawrence: Patrick if anyone in war room needs some safe space time they can come to gso .

08/06/2017, 22:25 – Tracey Allen: More like in need of counselling!

08/06/2017, 22:41 – Emilie Oldknow: What’s the atmosphere like there?

08/06/2017, 22:41 – Simon Mills: Depends which side of the building!

08/06/2017, 22:41 – Patrick Heneghan: Awful

08/06/2017, 22:41 – Patrick Heneghan: Help

08/06/2017, 22:42 – Simon Mills: Split between euphoria and shock

08/06/2017, 22:42 – Julie Lawrence: We are stunned and reeling.

08/06/2017, 22:45 – Tracey Allen: They are cheering and we are silent and grey faced. Opposite to what I had been working towards for the last couple of years!!

08/06/2017, 22:46 – Emilie Oldknow: We have to be upbeat

08/06/2017, 22:46 – Emilie Oldknow: And not show it

08/06/2017, 22:47 – Emilie Oldknow: And at least we have loads of money now…

08/06/2017, 22:47 – Julie Lawrence: Not if we go into coalition and lose short money

08/06/2017, 22:47 – Julie Lawrence: “Steve” walking the floor

08/06/2017, 22:48 – Emilie Oldknow: Oh no

08/06/2017, 22:48 – Patrick Heneghan: Everyone needs to smile

08/06/2017, 22:48 – Patrick Heneghan: I’m going into room of death

08/06/2017, 22:48 – Emilie Oldknow: Everyone needs to be very up beat

08/06/2017, 22:48 – Julie Lawrence: Its hard but yes

08/06/2017, 22:52 – Iain McNicol: I’m not in smiling and mixing and doing the 2nd floor.

08/06/2017, 22:53 – Iain McNicol: Everyone else needs to do the same.

08/06/2017, 22:53 – Iain McNicol: It is going to be a long night.

Source: https://novaramedia.com/2020/04/12/its- ... d-to-lose/

[matthewscott8]

The narrative that the Labour party was anti-semitic was a juggernaut. If you wanted to question it you had to throw yourself under it, i.e. your career in politics would be over. We live in the times of hysteria. It's all over now bar the shouting. The last 5 years have shown that winning arguments doesn't matter, you just have to come up with the right tactical narratives. We're just babies that want reading stories.

The joke is that after a masterpiece of pure chicanery from Dominic Cummings, it's all backfired and we now have a reborn socialist prime minister. The irony is delicious, and no tears can be shed for those who knowingly aided and abetted the false narratives, aka the Tory voters (and some of the Labour party it looks like!!).

[St. Gloede]

The narrative that the Labour party was anti-semitic was a juggernaut. If you wanted to question it you had to throw yourself under it, i.e. your career in politics would be over. We live in the times of hysteria. It's all over now bar the shouting. The last 5 years have shown that winning arguments doesn't matter, you just have to come up with the right tactical narratives. We're just babies that want reading stories.

I have a take that will likely piss of 94.73% every philosophy student, not to mention my fellow armchair scholars, which is that postmodernism is the closest we have come to understanding objective reality.

At this point it is pretty clear that what we call "reality" is little more than narrative clusterfucks. Spin doctors have entered the realm of religion, and wars are fought with think-tanks.

(If we want to get cynical about of most of our new gods may not even care if their narrative wins at the ends of the day, they just want it to be viable enough to cash-in).

Facts, nuance and honesty.

[Dolwphin]

We are living in a simulation. Bostrom tried to explain it to Joe Rogan, hilarity ensues ...

[Pretentious Hipster]

He went so far as to call it a coup

[brokenface]

Name that Dystopian film.

[Pretentious Hipster]

[Pretentious Hipster]

[brokenface]

Yeah what we really need right now is the one hope of functioning opposition to a failing government to be dragged into tedious arguments and intraparty bickering stirred up by self-promoting wankers like Aaron Bastani.

[Pretentious Hipster]

I wouldn't call causing a politician to break down crying and making fun of her for that and putting tons of false smears as tedious and bickering. What they did was disgusting and I hope it gets broken down and replaced. An election just happened so you've got a few years to build it back up again anyways.

[brokenface]

There's nasty people in politics, this has been true forever. Guess what, I'm sure there was also nasty people amongst Corbyn's crowd.

Who knows with elections, Tories have a big majority but they're about to enter a major recession caused by Covid which is going to be worsened by Brexit. Things can change.

But point is we need a functioning opposition right now. People are dying due to government failings. Labour with an undead Corbyn still leading and a never-ending leadership election hasn't really existed as opposition since the election in December. Then as soon as new leader is in place and there's some hope of opposition, this leak happens.

[Pretentious Hipster]

I did read that Boris is utilizing some socialist policies due to COVID, so perhaps that may convince the the working class that those policies work and will convince them to not vote for them in the upcoming election. I'm sure that Boris will return to being "normal" after all of this is over. The major recession will also get them blamed regardless of what happens, so the more apolitical will get tired of their shtick.

I do partially support the right winning because of accelerationism. Capitalism will collapse a lot more quickly with them. Hell, it might even happen right now with the virus. The problem with that is there will be plenty of short-term damage, and I'm not even sure if that's worth it. I believe the liberal-leaning parties will cause this too, but on a much slower pace. With this, you might even argue that there will be quite a bit more damage if you consider the long-term.

The problem with accelerationism is that it depends on what it gets replaced with. With the rise that's going on now, my worry is that it could lead to something even more fascist.

I of course would vote for the opposition party to stop the far-right. It's just a very shitty vote as I believe the liberal-leaning parties don't do nearly enough to fix the issues with their countries. I don't vote for them in my election though because my vote is useless. Literally every election in my riding had the liberal party winning, both federal and provincial. The last federal election they got more votes than every other party combined. Hell, even the most recent election where the liberals got so fucking destroyed that they're not even considered a major party anymore, they still won in my riding.

[St. Gloede]

Two points on this:

1. That members of the executive management team potentially conspired against the party, and specifically abused/bullied members/MPs should under no circumstances be swept under the rug. I have no idea why it is the people reporting on it that is at fault. Seems like mis-placed annoyance, though I agree that the overall point of ensuring a strong opposition.

2. This was clearly an insular group, most of which are no longer working with the party. There should be repercussions (pending investigation, etc) but I don't see how this could harm unity - unless it comes down that key members were involved. If anything a quick win for Keir, showing impartiality and acting in the best interest of the party (and show himself as a strong leader for the country).

[brokenface]

There's clearly a shift in power in the party from the left grouped around Corbyn/Momentum back to a more centrist/'soft left' group. This leak is a fuck you by the outgoing group to damage the incoming, timed to be released just when Starmer became leader.

It ain't pretty, it doesn't reflect well on anyone involved, it shouldn't be ignored altogether, but from what I've seen it's small-fry factional crap compared to what else is going on right now.

[brokenface]

I did read that Boris is utilizing some socialist policies due to COVID, so perhaps that may convince the the working class that those policies work and will convince them to not vote for them in the upcoming election. I'm sure that Boris will return to being "normal" after all of this is over. The major recession will also get them blamed regardless of what happens, so the more apolitical will get tired of their shtick.

I do partially support the right winning because of accelerationism. Capitalism will collapse a lot more quickly with them. Hell, it might even happen right now with the virus. The problem with that is there will be plenty of short-term damage, and I'm not even sure if that's worth it. I believe the liberal-leaning parties will cause this too, but on a much slower pace. With this, you might even argue that there will be quite a bit more damage if you consider the long-term.

The problem with accelerationism is that it depends on what it gets replaced with. With the rise that's going on now, my worry is that it could lead to something even more fascist.

My politics is more socialism for the necessities (healthcare, utilities), capitalism for the rest. Balance of forces, if possible.

Smash the system and hope something better rises in its place does indeed sound a dangerous prospect with currents the way they are in the world.

[Pretentious Hipster]

I believe that capitalism can work if it actually benefits small companies. I would want there to be a regulation to stop the biggest companies from buying everything and becoming a monopoly. I would also have a pretty decent tax rate for the largest businesses and one quite small for the small businesses.

[Pretentious Hipster]

Oh and tax churches. That one just seems obvious to me.

[St. Gloede]

There's clearly a shift in power in the party from the left grouped around Corbyn/Momentum back to a more centrist/'soft left' group. This leak is a fuck you by the outgoing group to damage the incoming, timed to be released just when Starmer became leader.

It ain't pretty, it doesn't reflect well on anyone involved, it shouldn't be ignored altogether, but from what I've seen it's small-fry factional crap compared to what else is going on right now.

It could be, but that is a fairly big and drastic jump to conclusions. These people were not particularly associated with Starmer or his "faction" of the party, and it really shouldn't damage the new leadership at all (unless they handle it badly).

(It is terrible that the report was leaked without being redacted, I hope they find whoever is responsible).

[St. Gloede]

Re: Accelerationism. The Tories have held power for very long periods of time, and the only thing that really happens is that Labour eventually gets back into power. The UK still had the NHS after Thatcher, and they have continued to enjoy it over the last 10 years as well. Voting Tory may slowly erode funding for key services, lead to privatisation, etc. but you won't see the system come crashing down.

On the counter-side you have Labour as one of the most aspirational left-wing parties in Europe, with clear plans to increase public ownership, public investments, introduce codetermination, support co-ops and otherwise strengthen workers rights, improve living standards, etc. Accelerating for slightly worse outcomes instead of slightly better outcomes does not seem like the best plan if you care about better outcomes.

Even the US, where they consistently choose between two parties well to the right of the Tories has not come crashing down, and they don't even have universal healthcare. If your stance has shifted because Corbyn lost, that is a fairly extreme jump. Starmer and the new leadership is firmly on the left and broadly support the same policy agenda as Corbyn did (and this is also pushed forth by the members). He may not have the same rhetoric or be placed as far left as Corbyn ideologically, but in terms of platform all Corbyn was pushing for was baseline Social Democracy, that platform continues.

Not to mention that Anneliese Dodds, the new Shadow Chancellor, is from the Co-operative Party, will be really interesting to see how she steps into the role.

[matthewscott8]

Media is turning its guns at Boris Johnson, pretty wide range of commentators and organs now saying that British response to COVID19 was shit. He's got a meeting coming up with the queen, good chance he will be asking her to appoint Raab/Sunak.