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British Politics Lounge

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May should ...

Poll ended at June 7th, 2019, 6:31 pm

remain
0
No votes
leave
10
45%
seek psychiatric help
12
55%
 
Total votes: 22

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Re: British Politics Lounge

#2521

Post by St. Gloede » December 13th, 2019, 11:36 pm

Cippenham wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 9:40 pm
St. Gloede wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 6:04 pm
You are saying Labour is a right wing party?
No an extremist left wing sect wanting massive public spending to help young graduates at the expense of poor working people without degrees eg free wi if, free university education without loans
How can you be an extremist left wing sect that only cares about the middle class?

Some terms might just be jumbled here.

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#2522

Post by Cippenham » December 14th, 2019, 8:20 am

Academic Matthew Goodwin says Labour has three factions
1 Liberal degree holding Brahmin left
2 dwindling blue collar traditionally social conservative left
3 students and ethnic minorities

He says these groups are separating as they have incompatible views. The middle group feel betrayed as they are often also Brexit supporters.

I don’t see how they can reconcile these groups easily so they have a big problem.

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#2523

Post by Cippenham » December 14th, 2019, 8:25 am

St G if you have policies much of the public spending proposed by Labour aimed at students and young graduates. Not blue collar workers. Blue collar workers such as in Darlington Redcar Stoke and West Bromwich alienation from Corbyn not just Brexit is problematical for Labour

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#2524

Post by Cippenham » December 14th, 2019, 8:27 am

Conservatives shares of vote has increased at every election since 1997 apparently. This also a problem for Labour.

Conservatives will have to have policies helping blue collar workers in seats they have won.

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#2525

Post by Cippenham » December 14th, 2019, 8:35 am

Until the 1980s 80 percent of Labour support came from manual workers and families. Now just 40 percent.Now Labour support is 60 percent are middle class professionals and white collar workers.

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#2526

Post by OldAle1 » December 14th, 2019, 4:01 pm

Nothing strikingly new here, but well put, and certainly descriptive of the lives of a lot of people I know and care about (and myself):

https://eand.co/this-is-how-a-society-dies-35bdc3c0b854

Posted in the American politics thread also as it's certainly equally applicable.

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#2527

Post by Cippenham » December 14th, 2019, 4:05 pm

That last article does not apply to the Uk at all. The best thing for us Is what we are doing. We are not collapsing at all but doing quite well. I think the USA is doing even better, the person is on cloud cuckoo land who wrote that.

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#2528

Post by Cippenham » December 14th, 2019, 5:22 pm

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... s-did.html

I have read a lot of the works of modern historian Dominic Sandbrook and here he explains why Boris won.

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#2529

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » December 14th, 2019, 5:31 pm

Thanks for the analysis over the last couple of days, Cipp. I think you are mostly right with the things you say, even if I do believe that it is fairly inevitable that Johnson will be willing to water down aspects of Brexit in an attempt to get things across the line with the EU.
That's all, folks!

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#2530

Post by Cippenham » December 14th, 2019, 5:45 pm

The test for Conservatives, does Darlington High Street look and feel better in Four years , problem being increased online shopping means changes needed for town centre use. Imagine cinemas, housing and entertainment, sports centre, community groups,, anything better than empty shops

For Labour they make a massive mistake if they imagine they lost only because of Brexit. They need to get real.
Last edited by Cippenham on December 14th, 2019, 5:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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#2531

Post by Cippenham » December 14th, 2019, 5:46 pm

Yes Roger but even I have accepted we need to compromise at this point.

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#2532

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » December 14th, 2019, 5:56 pm

Cippenham wrote:
December 14th, 2019, 5:46 pm
Yes Roger but even I have accepted we need to compromise at this point.
My dad (who supports Farage) hasn't. He's been very depressed over the last day or two, and is convinced that this majority for Johnson will lead to fudging on a whole raft of issues.

Quite honestly, I'm not fully up to speed with all things Brexit as the incessant coverage rather wore me out but I suppose we'll see how things go in 2020!
That's all, folks!

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#2533

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » December 14th, 2019, 6:24 pm

Celeb endorsement of candidates is always a real vote-winner:


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#2534

Post by matthewscott8 » December 14th, 2019, 7:12 pm

Cippenham wrote:
December 14th, 2019, 8:35 am
Until the 1980s 80 percent of Labour support came from manual workers and families. Now just 40 percent.Now Labour support is 60 percent are middle class professionals and white collar workers.
What this misses is why those middle class professionals support Labour. I am not supporting them to get anything out of it myself, Labour would have taxed me more and I have private health insurance. I am just fed up with seeing how many people are homeless and downtrodden.

Also what the stat misses is that if Labour had 80% support of manual workers it would not have made a huge difference as there are a lot less manual workers now than in the 80s.

There is a great evil afoot in the land. A load of people, including yourself, who criticised the remain campaign as Project Fear, relied exclusively on fear tactics to win this election. We came to a place where conservatives were no longer capable of winning the argument so just went with dirty tricks.

As to the high street of Darlington, may as well just give up on that one now, 100 to one shot.

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#2535

Post by matthewscott8 » December 14th, 2019, 7:14 pm

Also worth pointing out that progressive parties won a majority of the votes. So we are not brain dead / entirely succumbed to evil yet. Boris Johnson sits in government because of an artefact of the voting system. Ditto Donald Trump.

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#2536

Post by matthewscott8 » December 14th, 2019, 7:17 pm

RogerTheMovieManiac88 wrote:
December 14th, 2019, 5:56 pm
Cippenham wrote:
December 14th, 2019, 5:46 pm
Yes Roger but even I have accepted we need to compromise at this point.
My dad (who supports Farage) hasn't. He's been very depressed over the last day or two, and is convinced that this majority for Johnson will lead to fudging on a whole raft of issues.

Quite honestly, I'm not fully up to speed with all things Brexit as the incessant coverage rather wore me out but I suppose we'll see how things go in 2020!
What is you dad's vision? Always completely astonished to hear stuff like this. This is not Ancient Egypt and kings will not queue up at Buckingham Palace to pay tribute. There is no post-brexit prosperity.

Everything's broken now anyway, no way to fix it. This place is just a morgue for the next 1800 odd days.

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#2537

Post by St. Gloede » December 14th, 2019, 7:25 pm

Cippenham wrote:
December 14th, 2019, 8:25 am
St G if you have policies much of the public spending proposed by Labour aimed at students and young graduates. Not blue collar workers. Blue collar workers such as in Darlington Redcar Stoke and West Bromwich alienation from Corbyn not just Brexit is problematical for Labour
The key policies directly affected workers and communities, i.e. codetermination, share dilution, incentives for co-ops and re-investments in communities and moving power away from the state and down to local government - though perhaps they did a poor job communicating just that.

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#2538

Post by matthewscott8 » December 14th, 2019, 7:27 pm

Cippenham wrote:
December 14th, 2019, 5:45 pm
The test for Conservatives, does Darlington High Street look and feel better in Four years , problem being increased online shopping means changes needed for town centre use. Imagine cinemas, housing and entertainment, sports centre, community groups,, anything better than empty shops

For Labour they make a massive mistake if they imagine they lost only because of Brexit. They need to get real.
The taint of sitting down with Hamas and Sinn Fein were what did for Corbyn. Despite the fact that these would have had no bearing on a future labour government. The policies were popular in the country. But Corbyn was not. He is the same guy who did much better in 2017 and nothing has changed about him since then. The only thing that changed was the Tory election tactics.

I am furious and bitter about the fake narrativisations coming out of this, despite losing the election to the progressives in vote share, the press are narrativising Boris as a one nation Tory. Let me be clear, this man cares about none of us. He is a charming sociopath. The British people voted in charming sociopaths before, and they will do so again. We are stupid apes. We are condemned to carry on living as stupid apes.

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#2539

Post by matthewscott8 » December 14th, 2019, 7:29 pm

Another thing I am furious about is that there has been no reporting on the number of spoilt ballots.

Politics is broken in this country but the press don't want to report on it. No-one from my friend and family circle has ever spoiled a ballot.

This year 3 of my friends and family deliberately spoiled their ballots.

I can't give you any official stats on this because I can't find any. Nobody wants us to know.

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#2540

Post by matthewscott8 » December 14th, 2019, 7:31 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
December 14th, 2019, 7:25 pm
Cippenham wrote:
December 14th, 2019, 8:25 am
St G if you have policies much of the public spending proposed by Labour aimed at students and young graduates. Not blue collar workers. Blue collar workers such as in Darlington Redcar Stoke and West Bromwich alienation from Corbyn not just Brexit is problematical for Labour
The key policies directly affected workers and communities, i.e. codetermination, share dilution, incentives for co-ops and re-investments in communities and moving power away from the state and down to local government - though perhaps they did a poor job communicating just that.
People didn't want to hear the policies. The prevailing dirty tricks tactic was just to broadly label the manifesto as a photocopy of Michael Foot's from the 70s. This was an awesome act of mendacity that the public swallowed whole.

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#2541

Post by St. Gloede » December 14th, 2019, 7:38 pm

Hopefully whoever takes over can break through the utterly depressing and cynical wall disinformation and distraction, it seems extremely bleak (granted, I'm in Malta, and the political situation here is just terrible at the moment).

Sidenote, for you, Roger, mdf, Cipp, etc. I did just arrive back from the UK (Lancaster, Cumbria and Edinburgh, a yearly trip for my wife and myself, her grandfather was from Cumbria) and you have an absolutely lovely country with a great amount of Christmas cheer, even in the midst of an election.

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#2542

Post by matthewscott8 » December 14th, 2019, 7:42 pm

OldAle1 wrote:
December 14th, 2019, 4:01 pm
Nothing strikingly new here, but well put, and certainly descriptive of the lives of a lot of people I know and care about (and myself):

https://eand.co/this-is-how-a-society-dies-35bdc3c0b854

Posted in the American politics thread also as it's certainly equally applicable.
Superb article.

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#2543

Post by St. Gloede » December 14th, 2019, 7:59 pm

OldAle1 wrote:
December 14th, 2019, 4:01 pm
Nothing strikingly new here, but well put, and certainly descriptive of the lives of a lot of people I know and care about (and myself):

https://eand.co/this-is-how-a-society-dies-35bdc3c0b854

Posted in the American politics thread also as it's certainly equally applicable.
Honestly, and depressingly, I think it is only a matter of time before most of Europe follows (unless something changes).

Even in Norway, which is often held up as a shining example, along with the rest of Scandinavia, those in power are trying to sell defeatism and lower expectations - and the horrifying thing is - it should be very, very clear what they are doing.

Lower taxes with promises of economic boost to maintain (not improve) status quo welfare services, underfund services, explain we need cuts/privatisation as we cannot secure funding - rinse, repeat.

Same with workers rights - explain we need to lower salaries and economic rights to compete with the rest of the world and create economic boost - inequality increases and people have less power - rinse, repeat.

Of course, all of this only leaves more and more money, economic rights and direct ownership/power in fewer and fewer hands, and the more we are dependent on them, the more we need to please them.

Want to change things back, improve welfare services, give workers better rights, etc.? No, you can't. The people with all the money will leave and tank our economies.

They literally threatened that in the UK, same in Norway (though more veiled, and not as extreme).

Essentially people in power are removing our ability to even go back to the standards we had, and, without exaggerating too much are setting us up for a full on hostage situation where we just have to do whatever the people with the gun (capital) says.

(rant over)

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#2544

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » December 14th, 2019, 9:28 pm

Cippenham wrote:
December 14th, 2019, 8:20 am
Academic Matthew Goodwin says Labour has three factions
1 Liberal degree holding Brahmin left
2 dwindling blue collar traditionally social conservative left
3 students and ethnic minorities

He says these groups are separating as they have incompatible views. The middle group feel betrayed as they are often also Brexit supporters.

I don’t see how they can reconcile these groups easily so they have a big problem.
To pick up on Goodwin, he has been analyzing the data, which reveals just how damaging Corbyn has been to the Labour party:


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#2545

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » December 14th, 2019, 9:34 pm

matthewscott8 wrote:
December 14th, 2019, 7:17 pm
RogerTheMovieManiac88 wrote:
December 14th, 2019, 5:56 pm
Cippenham wrote:
December 14th, 2019, 5:46 pm
Yes Roger but even I have accepted we need to compromise at this point.
My dad (who supports Farage) hasn't. He's been very depressed over the last day or two, and is convinced that this majority for Johnson will lead to fudging on a whole raft of issues.

Quite honestly, I'm not fully up to speed with all things Brexit as the incessant coverage rather wore me out but I suppose we'll see how things go in 2020!
What is you dad's vision? Always completely astonished to hear stuff like this. This is not Ancient Egypt and kings will not queue up at Buckingham Palace to pay tribute. There is no post-brexit prosperity.

Everything's broken now anyway, no way to fix it. This place is just a morgue for the next 1800 odd days.
He basically just wants out of the EU. He views a UK that is tied to the EU as a less independent entity. It is a mindset that I can understand in a way, due to my Eurosceptic tendencies.

I agree with the sentiments expressed by some here that Johnson is an opportunist and a chamelion. Were I British I most certainly would not have voted for a party under his leadership. I doubt that 2020 will bring a close to this drawn-out pain.
That's all, folks!

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#2546

Post by matthewscott8 » December 15th, 2019, 12:15 am

RogerTheMovieManiac88 wrote:
December 14th, 2019, 9:34 pm
matthewscott8 wrote:
December 14th, 2019, 7:17 pm
RogerTheMovieManiac88 wrote:
December 14th, 2019, 5:56 pm


My dad (who supports Farage) hasn't. He's been very depressed over the last day or two, and is convinced that this majority for Johnson will lead to fudging on a whole raft of issues.

Quite honestly, I'm not fully up to speed with all things Brexit as the incessant coverage rather wore me out but I suppose we'll see how things go in 2020!
What is you dad's vision? Always completely astonished to hear stuff like this. This is not Ancient Egypt and kings will not queue up at Buckingham Palace to pay tribute. There is no post-brexit prosperity.

Everything's broken now anyway, no way to fix it. This place is just a morgue for the next 1800 odd days.
He basically just wants out of the EU. He views a UK that is tied to the EU as a less independent entity. It is a mindset that I can understand in a way, due to my Eurosceptic tendencies.

I agree with the sentiments expressed by some here that Johnson is an opportunist and a chamelion. Were I British I most certainly would not have voted for a party under his leadership. I doubt that 2020 will bring a close to this drawn-out pain.
It will not be close to over by 31 December 2020. You can't just get a FTA with the EU like magic. I would say it will be 2025 before we have a new set of trading relationships with EU and rest of the world. But "Brexit" will be achieved in that we will notionally not be part of the EU fairly soon. That is we will have a transition period where we have to accept all the rules but have no say in them.

I have my own reservations about the EU. But it's a bit like being in a town with one bar. If you want a drink at a bar, there's just that bar really, choosing not to drink there because you don't like the decor is dumb. We can't put an outboard motor on the UK and drive it to Asia. The main reason for the EU is that the european countries are warlike and need to maintain continuous dialogue to avoid very very bad scenarios. The EU essentially solved the beef between yours and mine countries. No border between NI and ROI. EU has been great at putting a lid on separatist violence all over Europe.

To me this whole thing is like divorcing your brother because you had a row at Christmas. Families are shit, but they're also family.

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#2547

Post by Cippenham » December 15th, 2019, 6:03 am

Now Dominic Cummings has a to do list of 20 items the government will be much more radical than expected

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#2548

Post by brokenface » December 15th, 2019, 9:11 am

Cippenham wrote:
December 15th, 2019, 6:03 am
Now Dominic Cummings has a to do list of 20 items the government will be much more radical than expected
:rolleyes: only unexpected if you haven't been paying any attention. there's been a populist far right takeover of the party and now they have unfettered power. It'll be a democracy crushing playbook to help ensure their permanent rule:

-hide from scrutiny at all times
-attack media/turn it all into propaganda arms
-stir up division with culture wars and active disinformation campaigns
-actively work to disenfranchise people
-work to break down independence of courts
-work to break down and politicise civil service

Country is doomed. Did you really want us to turn into Hungary under Orban? That's what you've voted for.

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#2549

Post by matthewscott8 » December 15th, 2019, 10:36 am

brokenface wrote:
December 15th, 2019, 9:11 am
Cippenham wrote:
December 15th, 2019, 6:03 am
Now Dominic Cummings has a to do list of 20 items the government will be much more radical than expected
:rolleyes: only unexpected if you haven't been paying any attention. there's been a populist far right takeover of the party and now they have unfettered power. It'll be a democracy crushing playbook to help ensure their permanent rule:

-hide from scrutiny at all times
-attack media/turn it all into propaganda arms
-stir up division with culture wars and active disinformation campaigns
-actively work to disenfranchise people
-work to break down independence of courts
-work to break down and politicise civil service

Country is doomed. Did you really want us to turn into Hungary under Orban? That's what you've voted for.
agree with all this. There is a small chance that I hold onto that Bojo fires Cummings pretty quickly. Would be quite a popular move with voters from both sides of the divide.

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#2550

Post by brokenface » December 15th, 2019, 10:52 am

I see zero chance he'll fire Cummings, Cummings got him here. And he has no real intention of winning over people who didn't vote for him. See his immediate provocative moves like posing on the morning of election with a sign claiming to be 'People's Government', that is not someone who is trying to bring people together. That is someone who is sticking his fingers up at the majority who did not vote for him but now has to suffer under his rule.

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#2551

Post by Cippenham » December 15th, 2019, 1:01 pm

brokenface wrote:
December 15th, 2019, 9:11 am
Cippenham wrote:
December 15th, 2019, 6:03 am
Now Dominic Cummings has a to do list of 20 items the government will be much more radical than expected
:rolleyes: only unexpected if you haven't been paying any attention. there's been a populist far right takeover of the party and now they have unfettered power. It'll be a democracy crushing playbook to help ensure their permanent rule:

-hide from scrutiny at all times
-attack media/turn it all into propaganda arms
-stir up division with culture wars and active disinformation campaigns
-actively work to disenfranchise people
-work to break down independence of courts
-work to break down and politicise civil service

Country is doomed. Did you really want us to turn into Hungary under Orban? That's what you've voted for.
No, he wants educated expansion so we become scientific giant, improvement in education, massive spending in northern regions more than so fat announced, civil servants able to be sacked for poor performance,
Dominic needs an operation so not sure if he will be hands on after that but will have big influence. The election strategy was headed by an Australian who also helped the Liberal Party in Australia poll off a surprising win.

https://www.politico.eu/article/dominic ... e-victory/

https://dominiccummings.com/2019/11/27/ ... ign-votes/

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#2552

Post by Cippenham » December 15th, 2019, 1:03 pm

Cippenham wrote:
December 15th, 2019, 1:01 pm
brokenface wrote:
December 15th, 2019, 9:11 am
Cippenham wrote:
December 15th, 2019, 6:03 am
Now Dominic Cummings has a to do list of 20 items the government will be much more radical than expected
:rolleyes: only unexpected if you haven't been paying any attention. there's been a populist far right takeover of the party and now they have unfettered power. It'll be a democracy crushing playbook to help ensure their permanent rule:

-hide from scrutiny at all times
-attack media/turn it all into propaganda arms
-stir up division with culture wars and active disinformation campaigns
-actively work to disenfranchise people
-work to break down independence of courts
-work to break down and politicise civil service

Country is doomed. Did you really want us to turn into Hungary under Orban? That's what you've voted for.
No, he wants educated expansion so we become scientific giant, improvement in education, massive spending in northern regions more than so fat announced, civil servants able to be sacked for poor performance,
Dominic needs an operation so not sure if he will be hands on after that but will have big influence. The election strategy was headed by an Australian. Isaac Levido who also helped the Liberal Party in Australia poll off a surprising win.

https://www.politico.eu/article/dominic ... e-victory/

https://dominiccummings.com/2019/11/27/ ... ign-votes/

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#2553

Post by Cippenham » December 16th, 2019, 6:02 am

https://www.nme.com/news/music/new-lett ... yn-2574649

I read a hilarious note saying they cannot understand why the letter from Noam Chomsky and others saying Corbyn was not racist did not cut through in Blyth Valley and other places

At the Corbyn count there was a Jewish Brexit Party candidate whose face was priceless when Corbyn spoke, one of the best bits of the election.

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#2554

Post by matthewscott8 » December 16th, 2019, 1:35 pm

Cippenham wrote:
December 16th, 2019, 6:02 am
https://www.nme.com/news/music/new-lett ... yn-2574649

I read a hilarious note saying they cannot understand why the letter from Noam Chomsky and others saying Corbyn was not racist did not cut through in Blyth Valley and other places

At the Corbyn count there was a Jewish Brexit Party candidate whose face was priceless when Corbyn spoke, one of the best bits of the election.
Were it not for Cipp we wold have had another Kristallnacht, hooray for Cipp, who has clearly stopped mass hangings of the Jewish on Hampstead Heath by rabid momentumites.

Viva the Idiocracy.

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#2555

Post by matthewscott8 » December 16th, 2019, 1:42 pm

I don't suppose it occurs to the idiots calling Corbyn a racist that the Jewish and Arabs are racially indistinguishable, or at least have various overlapping ethnicities. How do they think Mossad infiltrates Arab groups so easily?

"anti-Semitism" in the Labour party was mostly people enraged at the foreign policy of Israel comparing it to Nazi policy (overripe for sure, but driven by genuine grief and outrage). The morons who hyped this up as a tactic for the election campaign have only succeeded in fostering a new generation of anti-Semites, because the one-note tone the media have taken on the issue, lends credence, in some minds, to an actually anti-Semitic concept: that the Jews are in charge of the media.

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#2556

Post by Cippenham » December 16th, 2019, 10:56 pm

Matthew you exaggerate somewhat. Moving on some latest remarks by Johnson show policies aimed at winners of ex Labour seats will be a priority so I predict radical liberal socialism. It’s as if Heseltine had been PM in place of a Thatcher as far as domestic policies are concerned. It will be a shock to many people who think Boris a right wing conservative as that could not be further from the truth.

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#2557

Post by brokenface » December 16th, 2019, 11:34 pm

If you trust Johnson an inch on anything he says, I've got a garden bridge to sell you.

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#2558

Post by Cippenham » December 22nd, 2019, 2:44 pm

Rebecca Long-Bailey the likely next Labour leader is even more left wing than Corbyn as has put Alex Halligan a Stalinist in charge of her campaign. To the Gulags!

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St. Gloede
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#2559

Post by St. Gloede » December 22nd, 2019, 4:06 pm

Cippenham wrote:
December 22nd, 2019, 2:44 pm
Rebecca Long-Bailey the likely next Labour leader is even more left wing than Corbyn as has put Alex Halligan a Stalinist in charge of her campaign. To the Gulags!
The evidence that this man is a Stalinist is solely wearing a joke badge saying "Good Night Trotskyite"...

On this basis the daily mail calls him a self-proclaimed Stalinist.

Grounds to sue I'd say.

How about not spreading Fake News?

Cippenham
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#2560

Post by Cippenham » December 22nd, 2019, 7:53 pm

I didnt know that. It was in The Times. But she would have learned nothing and ensure Labour is in wilderness if elected.

Rebecca Wrong Daily is a valid nickname.

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