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British Politics Lounge

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May should ...

Poll ended at June 7th, 2019, 6:31 pm

remain
0
No votes
leave
10
45%
seek psychiatric help
12
55%
 
Total votes: 22

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Re: British Politics Lounge

#2481

Post by Pretentious Hipster » December 12th, 2019, 10:18 pm

brokenface wrote:
December 12th, 2019, 10:17 pm
RIP UK. Too much of the country is too fucking stupid to see how dangerous it is to give unchecked power to sociopathic narcissists.
It happened in Ontario and Alberta too. I think it's just something that's spreading everywhere.

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#2482

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » December 12th, 2019, 10:40 pm

ChrisReynolds wrote:
December 12th, 2019, 10:08 pm
St. Gloede wrote:
December 12th, 2019, 10:04 pm
Horrifying.
I just hope this is a wake-up call for Labour and they can select somebody who is not toxic to the electorate. Worst result for Labour since 1924, and best result for the Tories since Thatcher won at the Falklands in 1983.
That is going to be difficult Chris, Jezza and his gang have got such a grip on the inner workings of the party.

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#2483

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » December 12th, 2019, 11:00 pm

Lib Dem leader looks like she will get booted out:



"Oh Jeremy Corbyn,Oh Jeremy Corbyn."

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#2484

Post by St. Gloede » December 12th, 2019, 11:10 pm

Corbyn lead Labour to an incredibly strong result just 2 years ago ...

Was he toxic then?

I think we can safely say that any left winger will face the same degree of demonisation and fearmongering from the essentially entirely Liberal to Conservative media.

It is thoroughly scary and gutting that so many people can go out and vote against themselves and their children.

I too hope Labour, in the likely case they elect a new leader, will find one who will be even harder to scaremonger and lie about, who can be even more effective, who can inspire more trust and can deliver the genuinely incredible policies Labour stands for - but this is not about individuals, it is about power, right now those wishing to keep people down have it, and those wishing to build people up do not (granted, that is essentially always the case).

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#2485

Post by St. Gloede » December 12th, 2019, 11:11 pm

morrison-dylan-fan wrote:
December 12th, 2019, 11:00 pm
Lib Dem leader looks like she will get booted out:

If so, well done SNP (l)

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#2486

Post by Cippenham » December 12th, 2019, 11:14 pm

Jeremy Corbyn was always the wrong leader for Labour, this is not just about Brexit. Boris is a liberal left moderate socialist and europhile who will have strong Eu relationships and massive infrastructure spending in seats especially in north of England . This is not like Theresa May at all. Austerity will be gone,

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#2487

Post by OldAle1 » December 12th, 2019, 11:16 pm

brokenface wrote:
December 12th, 2019, 10:17 pm
RIP UK. Too much of the country is too fucking stupid to see how dangerous it is to give unchecked power to sociopathic narcissists.
sounds familiar, somehow. And, somehow, I expect a similar outcome next November here.

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#2488

Post by St. Gloede » December 12th, 2019, 11:16 pm

Cipp continues to confuse Socialism and Liberalism/Conservatism, always good for a laugh, thank you.

Hope he's right though, if only in part.

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#2489

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » December 12th, 2019, 11:50 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
December 12th, 2019, 11:10 pm
Corbyn lead Labour to an incredibly strong result just 2 years ago ...

Was he toxic then?


In 2017 Corbyn had the huge bonus of Maybot-and he could not even get a majority against her!

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#2490

Post by Cippenham » December 13th, 2019, 12:37 am

Yes but people want to get Brexit done, not have another referendum and be neutral and a new negotiation, that was too much for people. The Labour Party has also gone too far left, Corbyn didn’t even expect to become leader. He is not that intelligent but against the dreadful Theresa May he could reach peak Corbyn. The new leader is likely to be a woman I believe. They have lost the working class northern vote, not just because of Brexit.

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#2491

Post by Cippenham » December 13th, 2019, 12:39 am

Tories will have to do some socialism to keep voters in north of England. Watch out for budget in February I believe.

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#2492

Post by Cippenham » December 13th, 2019, 12:44 am

St. Gloede wrote:
December 12th, 2019, 11:16 pm
Cipp continues to confuse Socialism and Liberalism/Conservatism, always good for a laugh, thank you.

Hope he's right though, if only in part.
The actual policies of the Conservatives are taken from Labour as it was under Milliband. Liberal in that they are elitist. The only good thing is some type of Brexit, let’s see how that goes .

But still better than dreadful old failed Marxism.

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#2493

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » December 13th, 2019, 12:48 am

The knives are coming out for Comrade Corbyn and his fans:



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#2494

Post by ChrisReynolds » December 13th, 2019, 12:54 am

St. Gloede wrote:
December 12th, 2019, 11:10 pm
Corbyn lead Labour to an incredibly strong result just 2 years ago ...

Was he toxic then?

I think we can safely say that any left winger will face the same degree of demonisation and fearmongering from the essentially entirely Liberal to Conservative media.
Corbyn has always been toxic. He got votes at the last election when nobody believed he had any chance of becoming PM and felt able to vote Labour as an anti-Tory, anti-Theresa May vote. There's a narrative being pushed that the loss was all down to Brexit, but Lord Ashcroft does polling on reasons people are worried about a Labour government:

Image

Labour being anti-Brexit is a major concern for Leave voters, but the number 1 reason is pretty consistent.

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#2495

Post by Pretentious Hipster » December 13th, 2019, 12:55 am

It's all up to Bernie now. If not then the left parties are gonna be centre-right again. It'll either be that party who represents corporations and billionaires, or the "anti-establishment" right who will represent... oh yea, the corporations and billionaires.

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#2496

Post by Cippenham » December 13th, 2019, 1:16 am

Labour could and should have voted for Theresa May s deal

Conservative gains Redcar, Workington, wow

SNP big gains likely but they will not be allowed another referendum, so trouble ahead?

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#2497

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » December 13th, 2019, 1:34 am

Major news,like we saw in the US, Labour's Red Wall is coming down:



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#2498

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » December 13th, 2019, 2:09 am

The seat of Leigh in Manchester has been loyally Labour since 1922, until Corbyn and his cult took control:


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#2499

Post by Pretentious Hipster » December 13th, 2019, 2:25 am

Calling me cynical and misanthropic in the past was an understatement. I felt like I changed recently, finding hope. It looks like it's all for naught. It might even all be gone again if Bernie doesn't get the nominee. It's like trying to shift a place to the left is a losing battle. If a place manages to do it, the world powers do their best to stop it through mostly economical means, but sometimes even throwing in militaristic means on top of it.

I always thought this before: Human beings never changed, I refuse to believe that they did in the past 100 years. If that's the case, then why wasn't sexism, homophobia and racism solved by now? I know some other cultures in Africa were against stuff like homophobia until the Catholics came in. Maybe religion is what the problem is?

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#2500

Post by Pretentious Hipster » December 13th, 2019, 2:35 am

Like, do people even follow debates or what the politicians do? Boris hid in a fridge for fuck's sake, but somehow destroyed the election. Biden is incomprehensible during the debates and he says dumber and dumber things in rallies too, but is still first.

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#2501

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » December 13th, 2019, 2:43 am

The seat of Tory IDS was one of the top two Tory seats Remainers heavily targeted. The Remainers have failed:


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#2502

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » December 13th, 2019, 2:53 am

Stoke has been one of the most loyal Labour seats in Labour's Red Wall. But,this was before Corbyn and his Momentum fanboys:


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#2503

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » December 13th, 2019, 3:08 am

Major upset-DUP's Nigel Dodds:


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#2504

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » December 13th, 2019, 3:29 am

Sedgefield-Tony Blair's former seat (who unlike Corbyn, knew how to win a GE) and has been a Labour seat since 1935. Well,time to get the mop out for another bloodbath:

Come on everyone, sing along: "Oh Jeremy Corbyn, Oh Jeremy Corbyn."



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#2505

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » December 13th, 2019, 3:40 am

Redcar (which used to be rep by Mo Mowlam) seat (Labour since 1945) has entered this Game of Thrones:


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#2506

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » December 13th, 2019, 3:47 am

Official: Lib Dem leader Jo Swinson-good bye:


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#2507

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » December 13th, 2019, 4:38 am

Just a day or so ago, Labour high command were hyping up Laura Piddock as the heir when Corbyn stepped down from his glorious legacy:


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#2508

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » December 13th, 2019, 5:10 am

Dennis Skinner,loses to Con:


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#2509

Post by Cippenham » December 13th, 2019, 12:15 pm

morrison-dylan-fan wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 2:43 am
The seat of Tory IDS was one of the top two Tory seats Remainers heavily targeted. The Remainers have failed:

Good old IDS. A quiet man

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#2510

Post by Cippenham » December 13th, 2019, 12:17 pm

The beast of Bolsover Skinner should have retired. Too ill to campaign or attend the poll result. Aged 87.

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#2511

Post by Cippenham » December 13th, 2019, 3:05 pm

Need to emphasise again. This will be a One Nation government not like the last Conservative period. Boris is socially liberal, openly joined in mocking Trump, globalist on Trade, pro open borders really but will pretend otherwise , in favour of amnesty for illegal immigrants, his EU deal is not great. There will be big government spending on schools, NHS and infrastructure. Especially in northern seats just won .. :lol:

But better than Corbyn, yes of course, it’s come to that. Anything better than that.

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#2512

Post by Cippenham » December 13th, 2019, 3:19 pm

The Labour Party has become a city and London centric youth obsessed middle class party that despises the working classes in the north who voted Brexit and Conservative in this election for first time in some cases. The people in these seats do not believe in class war and liberal cosmopolitan attitudes. The Labour teams were completely alienated from many voters as a result.

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#2513

Post by St. Gloede » December 13th, 2019, 6:04 pm

You are saying Labour is a right wing party?

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#2514

Post by St. Gloede » December 13th, 2019, 6:13 pm

morrison-dylan-fan wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 2:09 am
The seat of Leigh in Manchester has been loyally Labour since 1922, until Corbyn and his cult took control:

Again, they did an excellent election in '17...

Where is all this vitriol coming from? Why do you call this extremely pragmatic and compromising leadership a cult?

My two cents, leave voters saw a second referendum as a betrayal. The position on Brexit was the only thing to truly change - of course they were between a rock and a hard place.

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#2515

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » December 13th, 2019, 8:56 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 6:13 pm
morrison-dylan-fan wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 2:09 am
The seat of Leigh in Manchester has been loyally Labour since 1922, until Corbyn and his cult took control:

Again, they did an excellent election in '17...

Where is all this vitriol coming from? Why do you call this extremely pragmatic and compromising leadership a cult?

My two cents, leave voters saw a second referendum as a betrayal. The position on Brexit was the only thing to truly change - of course they were between a rock and a hard place.
The main reason Corbyn did "well" in 2017 (a election which Labour lost) is because the Tories put out a poor manifesto, May was a terrible campaigner,and Labour told their heartland in the 2017 manifesto that they would respect the vote to Leave. Since the Corbyn project began, Momentum has been treating Corbyn as a cult figure, bullying out of the party loyal,long-time MP's due to them raising concerns that Corbyn was taking the party too far to the left,that the base would walk away, which along with Labour altering their Brexit position,has now seen Corbyn lead Labour to their worst election result in decades.

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#2516

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » December 13th, 2019, 9:08 pm

Cippenham wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 3:19 pm
The Labour Party has become a city and London centric
Lab MP Yvette Cooper in a interview today on what one of the things that must be done for the party to recover:

"Labour should be seen as party for towns, not just for cities."

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#2517

Post by Cippenham » December 13th, 2019, 9:40 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 6:04 pm
You are saying Labour is a right wing party?
No an extremist left wing sect wanting massive public spending to help young graduates at the expense of poor working people without degrees eg free wi if, free university education without loans

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#2518

Post by Cippenham » December 13th, 2019, 9:41 pm

morrison-dylan-fan wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 9:08 pm
Cippenham wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 3:19 pm
The Labour Party has become a city and London centric
Lab MP Yvette Cooper in a interview today on what one of the things that must be done for the party to recover:

"Labour should be seen as party for towns, not just for cities."
Bit late for that

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#2519

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » December 13th, 2019, 9:47 pm

Cippenham wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 9:41 pm
morrison-dylan-fan wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 9:08 pm
Cippenham wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 3:19 pm
The Labour Party has become a city and London centric
Lab MP Yvette Cooper in a interview today on what one of the things that must be done for the party to recover:

"Labour should be seen as party for towns, not just for cities."
Bit late for that
In relation,trade unionist Paul Embery:



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#2520

Post by St. Gloede » December 13th, 2019, 11:34 pm

morrison-dylan-fan wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 8:56 pm
St. Gloede wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 6:13 pm
morrison-dylan-fan wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 2:09 am
The seat of Leigh in Manchester has been loyally Labour since 1922, until Corbyn and his cult took control:

Again, they did an excellent election in '17...

Where is all this vitriol coming from? Why do you call this extremely pragmatic and compromising leadership a cult?

My two cents, leave voters saw a second referendum as a betrayal. The position on Brexit was the only thing to truly change - of course they were between a rock and a hard place.
The main reason Corbyn did "well" in 2017 (a election which Labour lost) is because the Tories put out a poor manifesto, May was a terrible campaigner,and Labour told their heartland in the 2017 manifesto that they would respect the vote to Leave. Since the Corbyn project began, Momentum has been treating Corbyn as a cult figure, bullying out of the party loyal,long-time MP's due to them raising concerns that Corbyn was taking the party too far to the left,that the base would walk away, which along with Labour altering their Brexit position,has now seen Corbyn lead Labour to their worst election result in decades.
I can see the "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" calls and a degree of idolization to be troubling, but you were calling the leaders themselves a cult. I see parts of the Blair wing using this terminology and branding a lot currently, I find that really worrying and destructive, talk about bullying out long standing MPs. It of course makes sense as the wings tug at the party in the aftermath, but you can't really blame one wing for nastiness, when you call them a cult. Remember also that the left wing where kept on the backbenchers under the Blair and Brown years, even Miliband broadly kept them out of power, and these were people who would have been fairly centrist in the party not that many decades ago.

I can understand that Momentum is an issue to many. Momentum is hard left, further left than Corbyn, and are pushing very hard for their vision. They have built up an incredible infrastructure which will be maintained, and has been a great strength, but at the same time they can also clearly be divisive.

I have to push back on one point here, namely pushing out right wingers. The conservatives literally threw out large parts of the Cameron wing, Labour did not throw out MPs. Rather, part of the Liberal Wing left, voluntarily. Where they, as Liberals, not that well in tune with the party or the grassroot, of course not. Yes, keeping the furthest right Blair wing would have left a broader alliance, but it is hard to keep such a ludicrously broad spectrum together, especially when they were so opposed to left wing politics and where the party was heading. It makes sense that people so hostile to Democratic Socialism would not quite belong in a Democratic Socialist party.

We will obviously see the Socialist, Democratic Socialist, Social Democratic and Co-operative factions rework themselves, Social Liberals who did not deflect will also be part of that, and then let's see what happens.

I hope that the party can stay together, understand why they lost and get better. The policies they advocated, which are described as hard left, largely matched the opinions of the UK people, which means it is likely the package, including leadership that has to change.

Best of luck to all left of centre in the UK, and to the UK as a whole. I hope the Labour Party will soon once again be an inspiration for the rest of us.

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