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British Politics Lounge

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May should ...

Poll ended at June 7th, 2019, 6:31 pm

remain
0
No votes
leave
10
45%
seek psychiatric help
12
55%
 
Total votes: 22

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Re: British Politics Lounge

#2441

Post by Cippenham » December 1st, 2019, 2:56 pm

No broken they have adopted big spending policies of the Milliband era Labour. It will be very different from before. And they will get Brexit done. Otherwise we go to living off rubbish and starve like in Venezuela, which should be a wealthy country but is ruined by socialism. I am afraid the 70s before the Thatcher era leading to prosperity things were tough and you want that.

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#2442

Post by Cippenham » December 1st, 2019, 2:57 pm

We have a choice between moderate socialism or out and out Marxism. As a conservative I prefer there was a real conservative option but that is not the case. The Conservatives are actually liberal elitists with some socialist policies but they are still preferable to Marxism

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#2443

Post by Straka » December 1st, 2019, 3:17 pm

Cippenham wrote:
December 1st, 2019, 2:56 pm
Venezuela, which should be a wealthy country but is ruined by socialism.
When exactly was Venezuela an actual wealthy country before that socialism ruined that?

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#2444

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » December 1st, 2019, 5:20 pm

From the report:

Jo Swinson’s party has been fighting the website openDemocracy for weeks over a little-noticed article published last month about the party allegedly selling voter data to the remain campaign for £100,000 during the EU referendum.


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#2445

Post by Cippenham » December 1st, 2019, 8:24 pm

Hilarious report of Farage and Sturgeon in debate
Farage . Brexit is great and will give us independence. Don’t you like independence? We are going to be a free nation , catch our own fish
Sturgeon. If Scotland was independent we wouldn’t be getting dragged out of the EU against our will
Farage. You want to be independent. You can’t be independent and in the EU.

Audience in hysterics supporting Farage.

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#2446

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » December 1st, 2019, 9:41 pm

Cippenham wrote:
December 1st, 2019, 8:24 pm
Hilarious report of Farage and Sturgeon in debate
Farage . Brexit is great and will give us independence. Don’t you like independence? We are going to be a free nation , catch our own fish
Sturgeon. If Scotland was independent we wouldn’t be getting dragged out of the EU against our will
Farage. You want to be independent. You can’t be independent and in the EU.

Audience in hysterics supporting Farage.
Oh my sides-the level of banter is off the charts.

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#2447

Post by Cippenham » December 2nd, 2019, 1:01 am

Well you have Scottish Nationalist party who are not nationalist in the sense of real independence but socialist euro fanatics, who only want to be separated from England . Liberal Democrat’s who are authoritarian elitists who want to ignore democracy. Labour who want working poor people to pay for benefits for the middle classes and want to borrow so much the economy would collapse. Conservatives who are liberal elitists but at least will vote for a type of Brexit but otherwise have adopted no sense socialism and green nonsense. Brexit party who are only fighting Labour. Other parties not relevant except in their own country like Northern Ireland.

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#2448

Post by Cippenham » December 2nd, 2019, 8:09 am

Farage to Labour . You want a second referendum between remain and remain. Yes any such should be boycotted as illegitimate

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#2449

Post by Onderhond » December 2nd, 2019, 8:13 am

So a Polish immigrant and a convicted killer saved the day on London Bridge. Nice.

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#2450

Post by Cippenham » December 2nd, 2019, 10:56 am

In an interview in The Spectator Boris makes clear his will not be a continuity government. He says for first time he opposed austerity from 2010. He will be tough on crime have tax cuts but wants to reduce regional inequality with massive infrastructure spending , increase spending on education, and technology and is prepared to borrow more to do it. Although different on the Eu his main influence is Heseltine and not Thatcher. Interesting to note he has given up alcohol until the end of January, or we get Brexit done.

He even wants to reopen some train stations closed by Beeching.

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#2451

Post by matthewscott8 » December 2nd, 2019, 12:26 pm

Cippenham wrote:
November 30th, 2019, 12:45 pm
Yes there is no excuse for leniency
Didn't hear any outrage from you when Tories formed a coalition with the DUP. DUP is terrorist back party. Presumably, given your values and this information you will now no longer be voting Tory?

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#2452

Post by matthewscott8 » December 2nd, 2019, 12:27 pm

Cippenham wrote:
December 2nd, 2019, 10:56 am
In an interview in The Spectator Boris makes clear his will not be a continuity government. He says for first time he opposed austerity from 2010. He will be tough on crime have tax cuts but wants to reduce regional inequality with massive infrastructure spending , increase spending on education, and technology and is prepared to borrow more to do it. Although different on the Eu his main influence is Heseltine and not Thatcher. Interesting to note he has given up alcohol until the end of January, or we get Brexit done.

He even wants to reopen some train stations closed by Beeching.
What he wants and what he says he wants are different things. He is a well documented liar and opportunist. If you believe that crap, maybe you can buy the Brooklyn Bridge from me?

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#2453

Post by Cippenham » December 2nd, 2019, 2:29 pm

DUP is not a terrorists back party, they have good Conservative values . I believe Boris will do as he says and spend big . It’s not what I would do but better than the alternative . Some of the founders of DUP had links yes with terrorism as did Sinn Fein but both have now changed personnel and outlook to modern democratic parties except SF still won’t take seats

You have a choice of two really and you either want Marxism or moderate socialism with Boris. But for me I want Brexit even if with a deal better than none.

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#2454

Post by matthewscott8 » December 3rd, 2019, 5:54 pm

Cippenham wrote:
December 2nd, 2019, 2:29 pm
DUP is not a terrorists back party, they have good Conservative values . I believe Boris will do as he says and spend big . It’s not what I would do but better than the alternative . Some of the founders of DUP had links yes with terrorism as did Sinn Fein but both have now changed personnel and outlook to modern democratic parties except SF still won’t take seats

You have a choice of two really and you either want Marxism or moderate socialism with Boris. But for me I want Brexit even if with a deal better than none.
:facepalm:

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#2455

Post by Cippenham » December 4th, 2019, 5:07 am

That is why the Good Friday Agreement was so important.

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#2456

Post by AdamH » December 4th, 2019, 8:05 am

Cippenham wrote:
December 1st, 2019, 8:24 pm
Hilarious report of Farage and Sturgeon in debate
Farage . Brexit is great and will give us independence. Don’t you like independence? We are going to be a free nation , catch our own fish
Sturgeon. If Scotland was independent we wouldn’t be getting dragged out of the EU against our will
Farage. You want to be independent. You can’t be independent and in the EU.

Audience in hysterics supporting Farage.
What's so funny? Wanting independence from the UK is an entirely separate issue and debate from wanting to leave the EU. It's not a contradiction to support one and not the other.

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#2457

Post by matthewscott8 » December 4th, 2019, 9:19 am

AdamH wrote:
December 4th, 2019, 8:05 am
Cippenham wrote:
December 1st, 2019, 8:24 pm
Hilarious report of Farage and Sturgeon in debate
Farage . Brexit is great and will give us independence. Don’t you like independence? We are going to be a free nation , catch our own fish
Sturgeon. If Scotland was independent we wouldn’t be getting dragged out of the EU against our will
Farage. You want to be independent. You can’t be independent and in the EU.

Audience in hysterics supporting Farage.
What's so funny? Wanting independence from the UK is an entirely separate issue and debate from wanting to leave the EU. It's not a contradiction to support one and not the other.
It can definitely appear to be a contradiction when you look at the rhetoric. They bang on and on about decisions being made in Westminster which is this Kafkaesque far away place, and then they want to sign up to decisions being made for them in Brussels and Strasbourg. It's just that a lot of the rhetoric is convenient for their agenda rather than the real point, e.g. anglophobia.

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#2458

Post by AdamH » December 4th, 2019, 10:17 pm

matthewscott8 wrote:
December 4th, 2019, 9:19 am
AdamH wrote:
December 4th, 2019, 8:05 am
Cippenham wrote:
December 1st, 2019, 8:24 pm
Hilarious report of Farage and Sturgeon in debate
Farage . Brexit is great and will give us independence. Don’t you like independence? We are going to be a free nation , catch our own fish
Sturgeon. If Scotland was independent we wouldn’t be getting dragged out of the EU against our will
Farage. You want to be independent. You can’t be independent and in the EU.

Audience in hysterics supporting Farage.
What's so funny? Wanting independence from the UK is an entirely separate issue and debate from wanting to leave the EU. It's not a contradiction to support one and not the other.
It can definitely appear to be a contradiction when you look at the rhetoric. They bang on and on about decisions being made in Westminster which is this Kafkaesque far away place, and then they want to sign up to decisions being made for them in Brussels and Strasbourg. It's just that a lot of the rhetoric is convenient for their agenda rather than the real point, e.g. anglophobia.
I support Scottish independence and I support Scotland (and the whole UK) being in the EU. My reasons for both positions are very different. The arguments for and against Scottish independence and for and against the UK being in the EU are not the same in my opinion at least. For one thing, Scottish nationalism is pro-immigration and much of the anti-EU sentiment is anti-immigration.

Also, I have to take a huge issue with the anglophobia argument. My mum is English (and so was her mum). Scottish nationalism comes down to a hell of a lot more than anglophobia and it's very simplistic to say that anglophobia is one of the main parts of Scottish nationalism. Being against the union does not mean being against England. You can be pro-Scotland and pro-England yet anti-union.

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#2459

Post by Cippenham » December 4th, 2019, 11:19 pm

AdamH wrote:
December 4th, 2019, 8:05 am
Cippenham wrote:
December 1st, 2019, 8:24 pm
Hilarious report of Farage and Sturgeon in debate
Farage . Brexit is great and will give us independence. Don’t you like independence? We are going to be a free nation , catch our own fish
Sturgeon. If Scotland was independent we wouldn’t be getting dragged out of the EU against our will
Farage. You want to be independent. You can’t be independent and in the EU.

Audience in hysterics supporting Farage.
What's so funny? Wanting independence from the UK is an entirely separate issue and debate from wanting to leave the EU. It's not a contradiction to support one and not the other.
The audience thought it funny to want to be independent but they know if you are in the EU that cannot be so as it is Taking rules from an unelected dictatorship we never asked to join.

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#2460

Post by Cippenham » December 4th, 2019, 11:21 pm

What will happen is we leave EU in name only which is Boris deal so don’t worry. We still follow most of their rules. But he won’t want anything to do with another Scottish independence vote.


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#2462

Post by Cippenham » December 5th, 2019, 4:31 pm

He had a first in classics and is actually very clever. Corbyn according to his ex wife does not actually read books at all.

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#2463

Post by matthewscott8 » December 5th, 2019, 4:41 pm

AdamH wrote:
December 4th, 2019, 10:17 pm
matthewscott8 wrote:
December 4th, 2019, 9:19 am
AdamH wrote:
December 4th, 2019, 8:05 am


What's so funny? Wanting independence from the UK is an entirely separate issue and debate from wanting to leave the EU. It's not a contradiction to support one and not the other.
It can definitely appear to be a contradiction when you look at the rhetoric. They bang on and on about decisions being made in Westminster which is this Kafkaesque far away place, and then they want to sign up to decisions being made for them in Brussels and Strasbourg. It's just that a lot of the rhetoric is convenient for their agenda rather than the real point, e.g. anglophobia.
I support Scottish independence and I support Scotland (and the whole UK) being in the EU. My reasons for both positions are very different. The arguments for and against Scottish independence and for and against the UK being in the EU are not the same in my opinion at least. For one thing, Scottish nationalism is pro-immigration and much of the anti-EU sentiment is anti-immigration.

Also, I have to take a huge issue with the anglophobia argument. My mum is English (and so was her mum). Scottish nationalism comes down to a hell of a lot more than anglophobia and it's very simplistic to say that anglophobia is one of the main parts of Scottish nationalism. Being against the union does not mean being against England. You can be pro-Scotland and pro-England yet anti-union.
My main point is that the SNP rhetoric falls over when the EU come into the picture. That seems pretty inarguable. You can't drone on about Westminster and then not drone on about Brussels. As to Anglophobia, I'm aware that it's unfashionable to point it out, but I'm doing it anyway. Around the vote I was in Edinburgh and the shop window of HMV in Prince Street was covered in pictures of Braveheart and stacks of the dvd. What's simplistic is to deny it's part of the equation.

I would be interested to hear about other reasons. The economic one is ludicrous, climate change means we are transitioning away from using oil, so the price will collapse, Scotland receives a higher spend of government spending than it contributes and has a much higher percentage of public service workers.

England has had waves and waves of immigration over the centuries, Huguenots, refugees from the Holocaust, Jamaicans, Indians, Pakistanis, Polish, Romanian, Albanian, Somali. It's a country that doesn't make sense outside of the immigrant context. And despite any rhetoric, every government in my life time has let immigrants in.

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#2464

Post by ChrisReynolds » December 5th, 2019, 5:13 pm

Pretentious Hipster wrote:
December 5th, 2019, 2:04 pm
Image
Reminds me of the Major-General's song in Pirates of Penzance, where he boasted of understanding quadratical equations and various Classical learnings. The joke there was that despite these skills he knew nothing about the job he was actually employed to do.

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#2465

Post by AdamH » December 5th, 2019, 5:46 pm

matthewscott8 wrote:
December 5th, 2019, 4:41 pm
AdamH wrote:
December 4th, 2019, 10:17 pm
matthewscott8 wrote:
December 4th, 2019, 9:19 am
It can definitely appear to be a contradiction when you look at the rhetoric. They bang on and on about decisions being made in Westminster which is this Kafkaesque far away place, and then they want to sign up to decisions being made for them in Brussels and Strasbourg. It's just that a lot of the rhetoric is convenient for their agenda rather than the real point, e.g. anglophobia.
I support Scottish independence and I support Scotland (and the whole UK) being in the EU. My reasons for both positions are very different. The arguments for and against Scottish independence and for and against the UK being in the EU are not the same in my opinion at least. For one thing, Scottish nationalism is pro-immigration and much of the anti-EU sentiment is anti-immigration.

Also, I have to take a huge issue with the anglophobia argument. My mum is English (and so was her mum). Scottish nationalism comes down to a hell of a lot more than anglophobia and it's very simplistic to say that anglophobia is one of the main parts of Scottish nationalism. Being against the union does not mean being against England. You can be pro-Scotland and pro-England yet anti-union.
My main point is that the SNP rhetoric falls over when the EU come into the picture. That seems pretty inarguable. You can't drone on about Westminster and then not drone on about Brussels. As to Anglophobia, I'm aware that it's unfashionable to point it out, but I'm doing it anyway. Around the vote I was in Edinburgh and the shop window of HMV in Prince Street was covered in pictures of Braveheart and stacks of the dvd. What's simplistic is to deny it's part of the equation.

I would be interested to hear about other reasons. The economic one is ludicrous, climate change means we are transitioning away from using oil, so the price will collapse, Scotland receives a higher spend of government spending than it contributes and has a much higher percentage of public service workers.

England has had waves and waves of immigration over the centuries, Huguenots, refugees from the Holocaust, Jamaicans, Indians, Pakistanis, Polish, Romanian, Albanian, Somali. It's a country that doesn't make sense outside of the immigrant context. And despite any rhetoric, every government in my life time has let immigrants in.
I lived in Edinburgh for nearly 30 years and was there when the referendum took place. To suggest shops were full of Braveheart DVDs is just bizarre (also, if Braveheart was such a big deal then why were there so many DVDs left...you'd think they'd be snapped up instantly). Braveheart is full of historical inaccuracies and has a terrible "Scottish" accent from Mel Gibson and to reduce the referendum down to yes voters being Braveheart fans is laughable. You'll see tacky Scotland shops in Edinburgh as well full of absolute rubbish like £10 kilts (proper kilts cost a lot of money) and blasting out Braveheart-type music and you could use that as a stereotype for the types of shops people in Scotland go to but those shops are seen as a total joke by most residents in Scotland and only exist for tourists.

England having had waves and waves of immigration takes nothing away from the idea that many in England hold anti-immigration views. It's certainly a far bigger issue in England than it is in Scotland. The EDL is/was a big deal in England, the Scottish equivalent was pretty much irrelevant. The BNP got substantially more votes in England than Scotland. Same for UKIP e.g. UKIP 1.6% in Scotland in 2015, 14.1% in England, BNP 0.4% in Scotland in 2010 2.1% in England).

What do you say to me as a half-English, pro-Scottish independence and pro-EU voter? That I vote yes because of hating English people and loving Braveheart? If that's the level of debate here then it's a bit pointless. It's easy for me to generalise and say that people who voted to leave the EU are all xenophobes and I guess that stereotype is the same kind of reason that you are able to generalise and say that all who voted for Scottish independence are Braveheart-loving Anglophobes. I'm incredibly proud that every single Scottish constituency voted to remain in the EU and the disparity between the vote in Scotland and England is one of the reasons behind a Scottish independence movement.

Also, my partner is here on a visa and I know a lot more about immigration than I used to and it's got far, far harder over the past few years for non-EU people to come here. They're regularly adding new barriers to people coming regardless of how skilled they are and the types of jobs they are able to get. My partner is a lawyer and I've seen her struggles to get new visas (including a rejection where the reason for rejection was absolutely shameful and eventually she fought and got the decision overturned). I know for a fact, for her as a well-paid, highly skilled non-EU citizen, it has become harder every year for her to get a visa and the barriers in place are crazy. I'm going off on a tangent here but it's certainly no easy ride into the UK like tabloids would like people to believe.

As a side note, unrelated to the general arguments here, this conversation made me think of a great video:

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#2466

Post by Pretentious Hipster » December 5th, 2019, 6:21 pm

Quadratic Equations is like grade 11 math, so it's not even that impressive.

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#2467

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » December 6th, 2019, 12:50 am

Andrew Neil calls out Boris for avoiding interview:


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#2468

Post by Cippenham » December 6th, 2019, 9:48 am

Interviews are so old fashioned, Boris does enough anyway they say. I think the immigration system can be changed if we leave the EU and based on people having the skills we need and no longer discrimination against people from non EU. So someone as a lawyer can get points in a points based system. As long as there is a need for that it will be easier than now. So vote Conservative to get Brexit done. The EU is a racket against people outside the EU in this sense. The system described by Adam above suits the EU.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/politics/the-news ... em-expert/

We will get more immigration not less but people with skills we need

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#2469

Post by Onderhond » December 6th, 2019, 10:45 am

Cippenham wrote:
December 6th, 2019, 9:48 am
We will get more immigration not less but people with skills we need
Maybe you can buy them on the slave market.

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#2470

Post by Cippenham » December 6th, 2019, 11:22 am

That’s 😛 silly. Is anyone forcing them here, no, they love it here

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#2471

Post by matthewscott8 » December 7th, 2019, 10:54 am

ChrisReynolds wrote:
December 5th, 2019, 5:13 pm
Pretentious Hipster wrote:
December 5th, 2019, 2:04 pm
Image
Reminds me of the Major-General's song in Pirates of Penzance, where he boasted of understanding quadratical equations and various Classical learnings. The joke there was that despite these skills he knew nothing about the job he was actually employed to do.
Probably a cry for help

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#2472

Post by Cippenham » December 8th, 2019, 9:41 am

https://www.dataprax.is/tory-landslide- ... parliament

Interesting analysis from Datapraxis. They predict a conservative majority but due to many undecided could be a hung parliament or a larger majority.

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#2473

Post by Cippenham » December 8th, 2019, 10:40 am


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#2474

Post by Cippenham » December 9th, 2019, 4:53 am

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html

Latest poll of polls showing 46 Conservatives majority. However it’s subject to change and tactical voting. Some people are also undecided.

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#2475

Post by Onderhond » December 11th, 2019, 1:26 pm

"Boris Johnson retreats into fridge to avoid TV interview "
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/vi ... view-video

To be fair to Boris, it was a rather big fridge, not a kitchen one. What a headline though.


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#2477

Post by ChrisReynolds » December 12th, 2019, 10:01 pm

Exit poll is in!

Con: 368 (+51)
Lab: 191 (-71)
SNP: 55 (+20)
LDem: 13 (+1)
Plaid Cymru: 3 (-1)
Green: 1 (no change)
Brexit: 0 (no change)
Other: 19
Last edited by ChrisReynolds on December 12th, 2019, 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#2478

Post by St. Gloede » December 12th, 2019, 10:04 pm

Horrifying.

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#2479

Post by ChrisReynolds » December 12th, 2019, 10:08 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
December 12th, 2019, 10:04 pm
Horrifying.
I just hope this is a wake-up call for Labour and they can select somebody who is not toxic to the electorate. Worst result for Labour since 1924, and best result for the Tories since Thatcher won at the Falklands in 1983.

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#2480

Post by brokenface » December 12th, 2019, 10:17 pm

RIP UK. Too much of the country is too fucking stupid to see how dangerous it is to give unchecked power to sociopathic narcissists.

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