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May should ...

Poll ended at June 7th, 2019, 6:31 pm

remain
0
No votes
leave
10
45%
seek psychiatric help
12
55%
 
Total votes: 22


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#2082

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » September 4th, 2019, 12:54 am

Please remove yourselves from the Tory party WhatsApp group:



Maybot looks sad about the result:


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#2083

Post by xianjiro » September 4th, 2019, 1:32 am

the ex-pm looks like she's got a major case of the "I told you so-s"

How do folks feel about the upcoming general?

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#2084

Post by Cippenham » September 4th, 2019, 4:23 am

They should have already decided to call an election as soon as Boris became leader. We need a Conservative majority. Let’s back Boris although I have no truck with his liberal left wing views . Certainly should be some kind of pact with the Brexit Party. Let them take on the north of England

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#2085

Post by Cippenham » September 4th, 2019, 4:25 am

Theresa May is not one of 21 who are removed as Conservatives, but Hammond of course is. I mean the whip has been removed and they cannot stand as Conservatives in an election.

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#2086

Post by Cippenham » September 4th, 2019, 11:26 am

Imagine Trump facing questions like that😃

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#2087

Post by 3eyes » September 4th, 2019, 11:29 am

There's a lot I don't know about how Parliament works (beyond "When in the House MPs divide ... They have to leave that brain outside and vote just as their leaders tell 'em to.") Thanks for explaining what "having the whip removed" means, Cip.
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#2088

Post by Cippenham » September 4th, 2019, 11:34 am

Normally they do as leaders say but if not in this case can have serious consequences

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#2089

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » September 4th, 2019, 4:32 pm

xianjiro wrote:
September 4th, 2019, 1:32 am
the ex-pm looks like she's got a major case of the "I told you so-s"

How do folks feel about the upcoming general?
I'm 50-50 on a GE being called. Due to the Fixed Term Parliament Act limiting a GE to one every 5 years, two thirds of MP's need to vote in support for it. With the Tory party now no longer having a majority,there is a good chance that instead of a GE, Boris will be kept as a lame duck PM.

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#2090

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » September 4th, 2019, 8:44 pm

And now MP's have voted against Boris's push for a GE:



We now have:

A PM so weak he can't even win a call for a GE.
A walking wounded Govt/Tory party.
The main policy of the Govt (leaving the EU) appearing to be dead in a ditch.

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#2091

Post by xianjiro » September 5th, 2019, 2:06 am

I'm just wondering how long before the resignations start to roll in (from the cabinet, I mean)

Didn't realize before this that 2/3rds of Commons needed to support the call for an election, though from what I've been reading, it makes sense that they want to hold this chip until they feel no deal is completely removed from the table. Won't be surprised though if Boris Y and crew try to find another end-run around Parliament.

Will also be very interesting to see how other business fares once the Brexit can gets kicked down the road again. Not getting much sense there is a lot of love for this government.

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#2092

Post by brokenface » September 5th, 2019, 11:50 am

First cabinet resignation: Boris' own brother :lol: :lol: :lol:

This week is humiliation for the ages for Johnson. Could not happen to a more deserving scumbag.

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#2093

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » September 5th, 2019, 1:25 pm

MP's to get asked if they knew what they were voting for:


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#2094

Post by matthewscott8 » September 5th, 2019, 1:42 pm

In the Brexit committee Michael Gove has just finished answering a series of questions about how Dover would cope with lorry arrivals in the event of a no-deal Brexit. Hilary Benn, the committee chair, did not sound hugely reassured, and he concluded by asking Gove to admit that no one actually knows what will happen in the event of no deal. Gove did not contest this, but replied:

"The future is known only to the Almighty."

Benn said unfortunately the Almighty would not be appearing as a witness.
Guardian live feed.

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#2095

Post by Cippenham » September 6th, 2019, 4:17 am

The Almighty appears as a Witness all the time to believers😇

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#2096

Post by Cippenham » September 6th, 2019, 4:57 am

Is Dominic Cummings to Boris as Steve Bannon was to Donald Trump? Perhaps.

https://www.france24.com/en/20190903-do ... r-in-chief

A Russophile with a passion for Dostoevsky. An admirer of Bismarck.

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#2097

Post by brokenface » September 6th, 2019, 7:24 am

Yeah that one's pretty obvious. I was actually toying with a us-uk political translator. Suggestions/corrections welcome:

Johnson = Trump, obv
Dominic Cummings = Steve Bannon, obv
Michael Gove = Lindsay Graham-Mick Mulvaney hybrid - smarmy opportunist with flexible morals
Jacob Rees Mogg = Mitch McConnell-Rand Paul hybrid - supercilious shit meets genuine oddball
Sajid Javid = Mike Pence - dope willing to be loyal for a high profile, but sidelined, job
Priti Patel = Steven Mnuchin - don't even try to hide the fact they are in it for the money and the cruelty
Dominic Raab = Devin Nunes - dumb cheerleader
Andrea Leadsom = Betsy DeVos - rich woman who likes telling people what to do
Amber Rudd = Susan Collins - you can delude yourself they'll do something decent but they will always disappoint
Matt Hancock = Marco Rubio - spineless turd
Jeremy Hunt = Paul Ryan - will tut from sidelines but do nothing, also spineless
Mark Francois = Sebastian Gorka - moron thug
Farage = Hannity - propagandists, popular amongst idiots

Harder to find equivalents for the conservatives who rebelled this week as there really hasn't been any in republicans

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#2098

Post by xianjiro » September 6th, 2019, 7:31 am

But is Sajid Javid a true believer?

Also, there have been defections from the Republican party - the difference is they just chose not to run again, return home to 'be with the family' - Paul Ryan is a great example.

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#2099

Post by Cippenham » September 6th, 2019, 8:28 am

I think broken is wrong with those analogies but he does not include Corbyn who is like a true marxist version of Bernie Sanders. Like Bernie but anti Israel anti the west someone who hates his own people and country

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#2100

Post by brokenface » September 6th, 2019, 9:08 am

xianjiro wrote:
September 6th, 2019, 7:31 am
But is Sajid Javid a true believer?

Also, there have been defections from the Republican party - the difference is they just chose not to run again, return home to 'be with the family' - Paul Ryan is a great example.
Scuttling away quietly is not quite the same as actively rebelling against party in a way that damages the leader. McCain was the only one i noticed doing that to Trump when he torpedoed the attempt to kill Obamacare.

Javid I matched more for the role than the politics/personality. Bit of a stretch than one, i must admit. He just strikes me as someone who's going to be happy to toe the line so long as he gets a high profile role.

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#2101

Post by xianjiro » September 6th, 2019, 11:03 pm

Gee, learned something thanks to your PM's papers today. I don't believe we ever call anyone a "swot", let alone "a girly swot". To show I can use this new word in context, I can safely say I'll never accuse Cipp of being a "swot", girly or otherwise, and just as a matter of course, I try to avoid adding sexism to epithet.

On the other front, I've been watching the press on the general election not happening with quite a bit of interest. In my mind, what better time than soon to go to the people and ask them what they think, but can't imagine this government will allow any referenda on Brexit. Unfortantely, that would really make the next general election into a proxy with many (most?) voting their views on Brexit and maybe not much else. While I won't hazard a guess at the outcome, I'm starting to get why the opposition parties are reluctant, especially given the fear of no-deal.

Will the saga ever end?!?

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#2102

Post by ChrisReynolds » September 7th, 2019, 1:32 am

I haven't posted in a while, but I have been following all the twists of this saga with interest. So many amazing moments this week it's hard to choose a favourite: Boris losing every single vote and purging so many MPs that he now has a massive minority in parliament and can never win any vote, the opposition teaming up to prevent the government falling so they can hold Boris hostage to their will, Jo Johnson dramatically quitting at the worst possible moment for Boris, Jacob-Rees Mogg stretching out for a nap all over the front bench of parliament...

Image

...but a particularly bizarre moment came with the new Tory policy of trying to force an election by repeatedly calling Corbyn a chicken, a tactic generally employed by schoolchildren or Biff Tannen in Back to the Future. Debate reached new heights of absurdity when KFC was dragged into the argument with this official government tweet:


...that KFC responded to:



and a man dressed as a chicken delivered some disgusting looking fried chicken in mocked up "JFC" packaging to members of the press. Truly the best use of valuable negotiating time.



And yet I think this may be the end game and Boris is about to win, and the chicken stuff is the craziest dead cat strategy they could think of to distract everybody, because the legislative cannot dictate to the executive. It's a blatant violation of the the principle of separation of powers. What happens when Boris refuses to accept parliament's legislation to extend the negotiation period? Possibly by claiming that his royal prerogative overrides it, or that he can attach impossible demands of his own to the mandated request. What options does the opposition have then? They'll have voted twice to keep the government in power, parliament is about to be prorogued so they can't start any more legislation, and without a requested extension the UK leaves the EU without a deal as mandated by Article 50 which most of Labour voted for in the first place. They could take the government to court but they don't have enough time. I've heard a suggestion that parliament could send John Bercow to the EU to request the extension. The craziness of the Johnson premiership may have only begun.

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#2103

Post by Cippenham » September 7th, 2019, 5:38 am

Well if Brexit is delayed it would boost the Brexit Party so that would mean the Conservatives must do a pact official or not with them or divided they fall.

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#2104

Post by Cippenham » September 7th, 2019, 5:44 am

What if he comes back with a deal and it contains some things Labour like , workers rights, he would still need his own party and some opposition supporters. Don’t rule out the EU offering something at the last minute.

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#2105

Post by xianjiro » September 7th, 2019, 7:38 am

So glad were not the only country with a nine-year-old executive!

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#2106

Post by brokenface » September 7th, 2019, 8:21 am

ChrisReynolds wrote:
September 7th, 2019, 1:32 am
And yet I think this may be the end game and Boris is about to win, and the chicken stuff is the craziest dead cat strategy they could think of to distract everybody, because the legislative cannot dictate to the executive. It's a blatant violation of the the principle of separation of powers. What happens when Boris refuses to accept parliament's legislation to extend the negotiation period? Possibly by claiming that his royal prerogative overrides it, or that he can attach impossible demands of his own to the mandated request. What options does the opposition have then? They'll have voted twice to keep the government in power, parliament is about to be prorogued so they can't start any more legislation, and without a requested extension the UK leaves the EU without a deal as mandated by Article 50 which most of Labour voted for in the first place. They could take the government to court but they don't have enough time. I've heard a suggestion that parliament could send John Bercow to the EU to request the extension. The craziness of the Johnson premiership may have only begun.
I understand that if it reaches the point in Oct where Johnson is legally obliged to seek extension after EU summit and he refuses, they could then call immediate vote of no confidence + then if they pass it, would have the opportunity to form temporary government who would then seek the extension and call an election.

This'll be after the proroguing has finished and it won't make any difference that they didn't back an election this week. Very tight timeline but i think that's how it'd play out if Johnson won't follow law. Court would be too long and risky.

It would require the rebel alliance to stick together and probably back Corbyn to form the government but in a situation 10 days from no deal they might.

Also seems, crazily enough, that some think he's now so cornered rather than wait to fail in Oct in the above scenario, it's possible Johnson will resign on Monday when they don't back his election. And no-ones quite sure what happens then but probably also have to be some temporary government.

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#2107

Post by brokenface » September 7th, 2019, 8:26 am

Cippenham wrote:
September 7th, 2019, 5:44 am
What if he comes back with a deal and it contains some things Labour like , workers rights, he would still need his own party and some opposition supporters. Don’t rule out the EU offering something at the last minute.
Why would EU do that? All EU have to do is stick to their position. Why would they want to help Johnson at this point? He's acted in bad faith throughout.

They do want to get it over with but they don't want no deal. They'll take a delay if it it's for an election and maybe second referendum.

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#2108

Post by xianjiro » September 7th, 2019, 8:51 am

brokenface wrote:
September 7th, 2019, 8:21 am
ChrisReynolds wrote:
September 7th, 2019, 1:32 am
And yet I think this may be the end game and Boris is about to win, and the chicken stuff is the craziest dead cat strategy they could think of to distract everybody, because the legislative cannot dictate to the executive. It's a blatant violation of the the principle of separation of powers. What happens when Boris refuses to accept parliament's legislation to extend the negotiation period? Possibly by claiming that his royal prerogative overrides it, or that he can attach impossible demands of his own to the mandated request. What options does the opposition have then? They'll have voted twice to keep the government in power, parliament is about to be prorogued so they can't start any more legislation, and without a requested extension the UK leaves the EU without a deal as mandated by Article 50 which most of Labour voted for in the first place. They could take the government to court but they don't have enough time. I've heard a suggestion that parliament could send John Bercow to the EU to request the extension. The craziness of the Johnson premiership may have only begun.
I understand that if it reaches the point in Oct where Johnson is legally obliged to seek extension after EU summit and he refuses, they could then call immediate vote of no confidence + then if they pass it, would have the opportunity to form temporary government who would then seek the extension and call an election.

This'll be after the proroguing has finished and it won't make any difference that they didn't back an election this week. Very tight timeline but i think that's how it'd play out if Johnson won't follow law. Court would be too long and risky.

It would require the rebel alliance to stick together and probably back Corbyn to form the government but in a situation 10 days from no deal they might.

Also seems, crazily enough, that some think he's now so cornered rather than wait to fail in Oct in the above scenario, it's possible Johnson will resign on Monday when they don't back his election. And no-ones quite sure what happens then but probably also have to be some temporary government.
I'm guessing the Queen will burn down Parliament and declare a return to the Golden Age of absolute monarchy of her namesake! Hell, given what we've seen this week, it seems just about anything can happen. Macron storming the south coast screaming "For Saint Joan! Remember Agincourt!"

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#2109

Post by Cippenham » September 7th, 2019, 4:28 pm

X is funny but fantasy script there 😃

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#2110

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » September 7th, 2019, 9:17 pm

A new plot twist on the Saturday Brexit episode, Dud quits Tories.


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#2111

Post by brokenface » September 7th, 2019, 9:39 pm

Haha Johnson's great week continues. Proper political knifing. And clearly timed to dominate the Sunday papers and keep the bad news coming over the weekend. I underestimated her.

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#2112

Post by xianjiro » September 7th, 2019, 11:06 pm

Amber Rudd bites the dust
And another one's gone
And another one's gone
Another one bites the dust

HEY HEY

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#2113

Post by Cippenham » September 8th, 2019, 3:29 am

She is no great loss. I am supporting Boris. If we do not have an election and do not leave he is threatening mass disruption of the EU from 1November, if they make him a martyr we will launch a massive campaign for him. We have to leave 31 October no matter what.

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#2114

Post by Cippenham » September 8th, 2019, 3:31 am

More MPs plan to quit Monday, let them go they are all losers

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#2115

Post by Cippenham » September 8th, 2019, 3:33 am

Boris is not going to resign and not going to ask for an extension we are leaving 31 October

The EU better offer a good deal if they don’t want no deal but they think the idiot opposition can stop us leaving

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#2116

Post by matthewscott8 » September 8th, 2019, 8:32 pm

Cippenham wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 3:33 am
Boris is not going to resign and not going to ask for an extension we are leaving 31 October

The EU better offer a good deal if they don’t want no deal but they think the idiot opposition can stop us leaving
What would you consider to be a good deal? I think when questions like that are answered the picture becomes a little clearer. I want things like a good trading relationship with Europe, cooperation between police forces to prevent crime, intertwined cultural relations to prevent further war in Europe, global influence, cooperation on large scientific and infrastructure projects, human rights, labour rights. It's quite simple for me because we have all of these already with the EU. Which ones do you want to give away, and why? What are your hopes for the future, and how are you expecting Boris to deliver them?

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#2117

Post by matthewscott8 » September 8th, 2019, 8:37 pm

I listened to a recording of a woman phoning into LBC on YouTube, she wanted to leave Europe and the only reason she could come up with when asked why was that the EU had stopped us serving fish and chips that used newspaper as wrapping. Only problem is it was banned by UK law, 1990 Food Safety Act. It feels like it was a key Brexit artefact, she just wanted things to be the way they were back in the 40 years ago. The thing is you don't get your young adulthood back by leaving the EU. We won't all go back to playing conkers and we won't just put all our electronic devices in the skip.

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#2118

Post by AdamH » September 8th, 2019, 10:06 pm

Was that in England only that it was banned in 1990? I know Scots law is independent. Just that I remember newspapers being used when I was a kid (in Scotland) in the 1990s. Not an important point, ridiculous to use that as reason to leave the EU and sums up some of the terrible reasons used for leaving but just curious.

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#2119

Post by Cippenham » September 9th, 2019, 4:58 am

matthewscott8 wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 8:32 pm
Cippenham wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 3:33 am
Boris is not going to resign and not going to ask for an extension we are leaving 31 October

The EU better offer a good deal if they don’t want no deal but they think the idiot opposition can stop us leaving
What would you consider to be a good deal? I think when questions like that are answered the picture becomes a little clearer. I want things like a good trading relationship with Europe, cooperation between police forces to prevent crime, intertwined cultural relations to prevent further war in Europe, global influence, cooperation on large scientific and infrastructure projects, human rights, labour rights. It's quite simple for me because we have all of these already with the EU. Which ones do you want to give away, and why? What are your hopes for the future, and how are you expecting Boris to deliver them?
All sounds fine. What is a bad deal is not allowing us to leave a customs union without EU permission, having to stay in the single market as those things are not leaving. I believe without tarrifs we can get cheaper food and clothes and footwear from any country. We can allow more skilled immigrants than now but eventually limited non skilled but recognise this takes some time. We can do trade deals with other countries. I am uncomfortable being in the EU as you follow rules of an organisation whose leaders are not directly elected and is remote so you cannot vote them out of office. They had ludicrous policies like the CAP for example too. Our rights like human rights etc should be determined by our parliament.

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#2120

Post by Cippenham » September 9th, 2019, 5:07 am

AdamH wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 10:06 pm
Was that in England only that it was banned in 1990? I know Scots law is independent. Just that I remember newspapers being used when I was a kid (in Scotland) in the 1990s. Not an important point, ridiculous to use that as reason to leave the EU and sums up some of the terrible reasons used for leaving but just curious.
I remember it being in white paper and bags but newspaper was in the outside not touching the fish and chips. Yes a Uk law not an EU law banned it’s use. Looks like under Victorian law it was not legal but not enforced I guess

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