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British Politics Lounge

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May should ...

Poll ended at June 7th, 2019, 6:31 pm

remain
0
No votes
leave
10
45%
seek psychiatric help
12
55%
 
Total votes: 22

matthewscott8
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Re: British Politics Lounge

#2041

Post by matthewscott8 » August 9th, 2019, 12:54 pm

Cippenham wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 11:56 am
A constitutional historian pointed out MPs already voted to leave EU so it is constitutional to just leave on 31 October even in middle of an election
I think the plan is to have a no deal exit and then call a general election, that way the Brexit party won't split the tory vote as the Brexit will already have happened.

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#2042

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » August 9th, 2019, 1:45 pm

matthewscott8 wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 12:54 pm
Cippenham wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 11:56 am
A constitutional historian pointed out MPs already voted to leave EU so it is constitutional to just leave on 31 October even in middle of an election
I think the plan is to have a no deal exit and then call a general election, that way the Brexit party won't split the tory vote as the Brexit will already have happened.
I agree with this, Matt. Also, I think the reaction from some quarters to cippenhan is somewhat over the top on the preceding page.
That's all, folks!

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#2043

Post by xianjiro » August 9th, 2019, 3:12 pm

ChrisReynolds wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 10:35 am
matthewscott8 wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 9:44 am
Cippenham wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 3:38 am
It was not me saying this it was the mainstream media.
Uhm by mainstream media, do you mean the comments section on Breitbart, or Spiked magazine?
Haven't been on this thread on ages, but had to comment that, yeah, this bizarre idea of Corbyn enacting a coup is straight from the mouth of the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell. Here's the right-wing, but very definitely mainstream, Sun and Express:
COUP ARE YA Labour’s John McDonnell threatens to tell Queen ‘we’re taking over’
Fury at 'Marxist' plot to force Queen to make Jeremy Corbyn PM and take control of Brexit
Could Corbyn be arrested or tried if he did this? I don't think it's illegal, or counts as treason, because nothing like this has happened before. I think the Queen would have to refer his request to the Privy Council and it would be denied because he doesn't command a majority in the House of Commons. I don't know if the Privy Council could do anything, although they might be able to force Corbyn to resign.

Did John McDonnell say this as a joke? I haven't seen any refutation or clarification. He said it in a talk at the Edinburgh Festival, along with offering to give Scotland another independence referendum. Why is one of the leading figures of the opposition wandering around making up party policy and challenging the consitution? :shrug:

It does seem almost certain that there'll be a general election in the next few months.
Thanks for the update and links, ChrisR :thumbsup: While I don't generally peruse lots of newsites, this hadn't come across any of my feeds though I've seen an article about Johnson refusing to leave office or hold elections - even if a no-confidence vote goes against his government - until after 1 November. Whatever happens, it will make for some level of dis-ease and chaos.🤞 hoping for the best!

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#2044

Post by xianjiro » August 9th, 2019, 3:32 pm

ChrisReynolds wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 10:35 am
matthewscott8 wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 9:44 am
Cippenham wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 3:38 am
It was not me saying this it was the mainstream media.
Uhm by mainstream media, do you mean the comments section on Breitbart, or Spiked magazine?
Haven't been on this thread on ages, but had to comment that, yeah, this bizarre idea of Corbyn enacting a coup is straight from the mouth of the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell. Here's the right-wing, but very definitely mainstream, Sun and Express:
COUP ARE YA Labour’s John McDonnell threatens to tell Queen ‘we’re taking over’
Fury at 'Marxist' plot to force Queen to make Jeremy Corbyn PM and take control of Brexit
Could Corbyn be arrested or tried if he did this? I don't think it's illegal, or counts as treason, because nothing like this has happened before. I think the Queen would have to refer his request to the Privy Council and it would be denied because he doesn't command a majority in the House of Commons. I don't know if the Privy Council could do anything, although they might be able to force Corbyn to resign.

Did John McDonnell say this as a joke? I haven't seen any refutation or clarification. He said it in a talk at the Edinburgh Festival, along with offering to give Scotland another independence referendum. Why is one of the leading figures of the opposition wandering around making up party policy and challenging the consitution? :shrug:

It does seem almost certain that there'll be a general election in the next few months.
Okay, read the articles. And I thought we had nuts in Congress! :lol:

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#2045

Post by Cippenham » August 9th, 2019, 4:09 pm

Ok 👍 Matthew fair enough. I should stick to the Telegraph. I haven’t actually heard of Spiked to be honest. I am actually a moderate conservative when you take those tests . Boris Johnson is of course a liberal and not conservative at all.

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#2046

Post by Cippenham » August 9th, 2019, 4:19 pm

RogerTheMovieManiac88 wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 1:45 pm
matthewscott8 wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 12:54 pm
Cippenham wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 11:56 am
A constitutional historian pointed out MPs already voted to leave EU so it is constitutional to just leave on 31 October even in middle of an election
I think the plan is to have a no deal exit and then call a general election, that way the Brexit party won't split the tory vote as the Brexit will already have happened.
I agree with this, Matt. Also, I think the reaction from some quarters to cippenhan is somewhat over the top on the preceding page.
Thanks Roger. I am going to attempt to be more careful and considerate and not read tabloids :D

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#2047

Post by St. Gloede » August 9th, 2019, 5:54 pm

Someone who considers Theresa May a socialist, Jeremy Corbyn a revolutionary communist, and thinks Boris Johnson is just a liberal and not a conservative, cannot be described as "moderate".

Also, let's remember one year ago when this very same person advocated a violent uprising in case of a second referendum.

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#2048

Post by xianjiro » August 9th, 2019, 10:16 pm

On an entirely different front, can someone in the UK tell me what a Helter Skelter is? For me, this is a very unfortunate name tied to a book and couple of films related to the Manson murders (pregnant Sharon Tate/Roman Polanski's wife at the time of her murder). So I have a very, very hard time why someone would put anything called that inside a church! It looks like something you climb up (to get close to the ceiling which sounds cool) and then slide down. Is that correct?

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#2049

Post by brokenface » August 9th, 2019, 11:05 pm

You never listen to the Beatles?!

Yeah it's a big slide usually at fairgrounds/similar.

The church thing is a bit random. But then that's why it's made news

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#2050

Post by xianjiro » August 9th, 2019, 11:50 pm

brokenface wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 11:05 pm
You never listen to the Beatles?!

Yeah it's a big slide usually at fairgrounds/similar.

The church thing is a bit random. But then that's why it's made news
Yes, clearly that's why it made the news. And I do know that the Beatles had a song by the same name, but no, I've never really been a huge Beatles fan. So that is the connection (in the UK)?

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#2051

Post by xianjiro » August 11th, 2019, 7:58 pm

So, I see PM Yelltzin wants more prison space. Might the real reason be he plans to jail anyone protesting crashing out, radical remainers wanting that horribly undemocratic people's vote, all those radical revolutionary communists running around the hedgerows and fens, and anyone trying to force an election before the end of October?

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#2052

Post by xianjiro » August 11th, 2019, 8:18 pm

And main stream media are reporting that the Queen isn't happy with "the current political class and its inability to govern". I bet she's hired a Chief Executioner and is readying the Tower. "Off with their heads!"

It's only a matter of time before England returns to an absolute monarchy.

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#2053

Post by Cippenham » August 12th, 2019, 4:53 am

That’s a joke because she has specifically stayed out of politics so much so that Historian David Starkey says she is not doing as she should and has left the monarchy as just symbolic.

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#2054

Post by Cippenham » August 12th, 2019, 5:23 am

If there is an election in January after we leave , I would feel I would have to vote Conservative even if they are liberal and left wing. Boris is of course not able to act outside of the law. Be he ever so high the law is above him.

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#2055

Post by Cippenham » August 12th, 2019, 4:06 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49317656

I agree completely with Farage here although I might have to vote Conservative next time

If the Royals enter politics they are fair game

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#2056

Post by xianjiro » August 19th, 2019, 4:37 pm

"What's driving Brexit? From here it looks like it's probably the Duke of Edinburgh" - Milton Jones
and more one-liners from Edinburgh Fringe (though they aren't about Brokexit)

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#2057

Post by brokenface » August 25th, 2019, 9:10 pm

https://news.sky.com/video/boris-johnso ... l-11793777

Actually a pretty good interviewer who doesn't put up with his bullshit.

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#2058

Post by Cippenham » August 26th, 2019, 3:57 am

I think he was made to speak the truth, which is we cannot accept a deal with a permanent backstop, that we are leaving 31 October, and there could be some disruption, we have taken actions to mitigate that, but it is worth it in the end. For now I support him, but he would know many like me are ready to vote Brexit Party if he does not implement Brexit. Some catch , this catch 22.

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#2059

Post by Cippenham » August 26th, 2019, 4:03 am

https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/no-deal ... es-france/

Calais authorities don’t see a big problem. Interesting November 1 is a bank holiday in France so no lorries are allowed that day so it should be relatively smooth that day anyway.

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#2060

Post by Cippenham » August 26th, 2019, 4:16 am

I once worked for a company which shipped goods to EU and non EU countries. We knew the documents required were different and sometimes specific to each country. These companies will be able to use the right paperwork without a big problem. This will also apply to Eu companies shipping goods to us and we will not anyway stop goods coming in.

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#2061

Post by Cippenham » August 26th, 2019, 4:25 am

https://www.petrolprices.com/news/no-de ... shortages/

Will there be fuel shortages ? No .

Will there be panic buying leading to temporary food and fuel shortages due to project fear, likely to be I would say, but not based on reality.

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#2062

Post by matthewscott8 » August 26th, 2019, 9:07 am

Cippenham wrote:
August 26th, 2019, 4:16 am
I once worked for a company which shipped goods to EU and non EU countries. We knew the documents required were different and sometimes specific to each country. These companies will be able to use the right paperwork without a big problem. This will also apply to Eu companies shipping goods to us and we will not anyway stop goods coming in.
It's not just about the paperwork, you have to be stopped and checked at the border if it's not intra-EU. And the facilities to do that efficiently don't exist at the moment.

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#2063

Post by Cippenham » August 26th, 2019, 11:54 am

We sent the goods with the right paperwork and they arrived normally without being held in customs

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#2064

Post by matthewscott8 » August 26th, 2019, 5:21 pm

Cippenham wrote:
August 26th, 2019, 11:54 am
We sent the goods with the right paperwork and they arrived normally without being held in customs
Think about what you're saying, customs between the EU and non-EU countries doesn't exist. That's what you're saying. Goods such as these are definitely subject to checking. Please think carefully about this, you are saying the world has frictionless trade.

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#2065

Post by Cippenham » August 26th, 2019, 5:56 pm

I meant to non EU countries there

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#2066

Post by Cippenham » August 26th, 2019, 5:57 pm

We had to include customs paperwork yes, including value, country of origin etc, but it can be done once learnt and then you have no problem

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#2067

Post by matthewscott8 » August 27th, 2019, 7:44 am

Cippenham wrote:
August 26th, 2019, 5:57 pm
We had to include customs paperwork yes, including value, country of origin etc, but it can be done once learnt and then you have no problem
It's not just about filling paperwork in, we are establishing a border. These goods now have to be checked. There are ways of making this easier, but they all take time to implement.

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#2068

Post by brokenface » August 28th, 2019, 10:55 am

Johnson going ahead with nuclear option of shutting down parliament until mid Oct to limit them as much as possible from legislating to avoid no deal. Basically forcing it so the only defence left might be a vote of no confidence next week, where, if he loses, he'll delay the election date past the date of Brexit.

He's essentially trying to thread a very tight needle, where he knows he can't really govern with the current make up of parliament. So he wants an election but he wants the election to be forced by the other side. Needs to keep Brexiters on side by giving them their fantasy no deal promised land but also needs the election to happen before the disastrous effects of no deal fully kick in. Banking on buying his election victory by bribing marginal constituencies and making empty populist promises.

If he manages to thread this needle and get his majority and a no deal exit, it'll be quickly followed by an economic crash and his hard right cabal will rule over the ashes, selling whatever's left to the highest bidders and putting whatever they can into their own pockets. Bye bye NHS.

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#2069

Post by Cippenham » August 28th, 2019, 11:22 am

Yes a great move by Boris. Let me say this he does not want no deal but that is up to the EU now. We cannot accept the backstop and prefer no deal to accepting it its up to them. We will be fine and it will be great. I will be celebrating like a prisoner released or East German escaping to the west in the cold war. But not yet.

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#2070

Post by Cippenham » August 28th, 2019, 11:23 am

He does want a deal and think it is still possible. At this stage i would accept that i think not like Farage.

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#2071

Post by Cippenham » August 28th, 2019, 11:25 am

We are in no way going to sell the NHS. Services within it are private but always free at the point of use.

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#2072

Post by brokenface » August 28th, 2019, 11:42 am

Cippenham wrote:
August 28th, 2019, 11:25 am
We are in no way going to sell the NHS. Services within it are private but always free at the point of use.
Dream on. It'll be death by a thousand cuts. And you'll be cheerleading it all the way.

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#2073

Post by xianjiro » August 28th, 2019, 5:46 pm

In the game of real life, the Queen is just another pawn.

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#2074

Post by Cippenham » August 28th, 2019, 6:01 pm

The Queen is a great lady but she has chosen to stay out of politics, that was the path she chose as part of the strategy for the monarchy to survive. Some historians like David Starkey say that is a mistake. As we know it will be interesting if Charles manages also to stay in due course out given his known views.

Starkey made his views known back in June.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/11348 ... ontest-spt

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#2075

Post by Cippenham » August 28th, 2019, 6:09 pm

Let me make it clear again, I now prefer we leave with a deal, but no deal can be a successful outcome. I think the EU will offer an acceptable deal at the last minute, it’s how they operate as gangsters usually do if they have to.

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#2076

Post by matthewscott8 » August 31st, 2019, 8:10 am

Cippenham wrote:
August 28th, 2019, 11:25 am
We are in no way going to sell the NHS. Services within it are private but always free at the point of use.
Services being free at the point of use doesnt mean you haven't sold them. In a fully private system healthcare is also free at the point of use.

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#2077

Post by Cippenham » August 31st, 2019, 7:39 pm

Doesn’t matter , NHS already sold in that sense by Blair.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/200 ... h.politics

Not only that a lot of money spent on the NHS was wasted with too many managers and administrators and massive increases in many doctors pay for less work

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... sults.html

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#2078

Post by matthewscott8 » August 31st, 2019, 9:28 pm

Cippenham wrote:
August 31st, 2019, 7:39 pm
Doesn’t matter , NHS already sold in that sense by Blair.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/200 ... h.politics

Not only that a lot of money spent on the NHS was wasted with too many managers and administrators and massive increases in many doctors pay for less work

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... sults.html
Yes there are private suppliers within the NHS, it's a small part of our healthcare system. I don't understand why that means that selling more "doesn't matter". It seems like an absolutely critical issue. Also I know you are a big democracy fan from reading all your posts about the referendum, further privatisation of the NHS is anti-democratic.

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#2079

Post by Cippenham » August 31st, 2019, 10:04 pm

We are not selling to the USA, period , the NHS

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#2080

Post by brokenface » September 3rd, 2019, 11:01 pm

A good day. Conservatives falling apart, Johnson shown up for the blustering idiot he is in front of the Commons. Battle is far from over but it's a nice shift after Johnson has been able to spend weeks just doing PR without any scrutiny.

I'd like to think a lot of Tories who've signed up to the Boris show and didn't rebel today are also starting to have serious second thoughts, when they see people like Hammond and Clarke being essentially kicked out of the party. It'd be delightful if slimy shits like Amber Rudd and Matt Hancock turn out to have flushed their own careers away by selling out to stay in cabinet. Will one of them make another quick u-turn and quit?

Btw, once again a day to be thankful we don't have presidential system. PM has a lot of power but they can't hide in the same way. Johnson has had to face more direct questioning from opponents in the 2 actual days that he's spent as PM in the Commons as Trump has faced in over 2.5 years.

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