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Do you eat meat?

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sebby
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Re: Do you eat meat?

#81

Post by sebby » January 21st, 2019, 7:40 am

Ugh I had a whole thing typed out and the browser crashed. Not going to bother trying to re-type and research everything since I’m on my iPad. I will just quote a couple studies now and follow up tmrw when I’m on my computer.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11079642

“The olive oil meal reduced FMD 31%.” This is really bad, similar to endothelial impairment you would see hours after someone ate cake and French fries.

Also I’ve done a lot of study on the Mediterranean diet, and the benefits are from the high fruit vegetable and nut consumption, which can undo and even prevent the potential damage that is done by oil and fish consumption. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... 21C47BC1BF Greeks following Mediterranean diet who nevertheless suffered from higher incidences of heart disease are those who consumed more oil and fewer carbs and fiber (ie, more oils and fish, less fruit veg and grains).

Had another study quoted that I can’t find now that showed coronary lesions growing in subjects were on an olive oil heavy diet, and then immediately ceasing growth after oil was removed from their diets. I’ll try to find that one first and post it when I can, as I’d say that’s pretty damning.

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#82

Post by Armoreska » January 21st, 2019, 10:05 am

Image
currently working towards a vegan/low waste world + thru such film lists (besides TV): 2010s bests, RW Fassbinder, Luis Bunuel, Yasujiro Ozu, Eric Rohmer, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, 17+ sci-fi lists on watchlist, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo

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#83

Post by matthewscott8 » January 21st, 2019, 11:11 am

I am a proteinophile (yep I just made up that word), what I mean is if I have a meal without a lot of protein, I feel like I haven't actually eaten a meal. I will actually get depressed if protein isn't happening. I've tried eating at vegan restuarants, and whilst some places can actually cook a meal that's as good as a meal with meat (for a lot of money), it doesn't fill a gap, even if the meal is massive. I acknowledge that there are vegan sources of protein, but they aren't tasty, tofu in particular is terrible.

I am interested in reducing meat intake but find it hard to get facts or help on the subject (another subject hit by polarisation), vegans I meet are usually extremely offputting and self-righteous people that make me want to make a beeline to MacDonalds, they also put out a lot of "alternative facts" about human evolution which are insulting to me as a degreed biologist. Also they never seem to have any answers about what happens to the animals after we stop needing to eat meat, given that most of the world's animals are part of the human foodchain. Despite this I am genuinely interested in reducing meat intake, for environmental reasons, and particularly making sure I eat meat where the standards of husbandry were very high.

Also the thing that annoys me the most is that there are people who are not protein hungry, my mum for example despite having no objection whatsoever to meat (grew up on a farm), rarely eats it, and is essentially a pescetarian. All this was just dietary preference. I feel sometimes like people with that sort of dietary preference like to pretend that it is because of their super duper ethics, when often they come across otherwise as cold and misanthropic.

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#84

Post by fori » January 21st, 2019, 11:18 am

I agree that a lot of vegans may seem aggressive and smug, but as one myself, I urge you to think about it from the other perspective, and where their “misanthropy” comes from. If you shared their convictions, what would you think of your current position?
Additionally I can address some of your points from my own perspective, but I am highly opinionated, and what I say may not represent what most vegans might think.

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#85

Post by matthewscott8 » January 21st, 2019, 11:47 am

fori wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 11:18 am
I agree that a lot of vegans may seem aggressive and smug, but as one myself, I urge you to think about it from the other perspective, and where their “misanthropy” comes from. If you shared their convictions, what would you think of your current position?
Additionally I can address some of your points from my own perspective, but I am highly opinionated, and what I say may not represent what most vegans might think.
I think if I shared the conviction that a sheep was a somebody in the same way that a person was a somebody, and that therefore farms are basically concentration camps, I would start an armed conflict. I think that might be to bite the bullet, which is why vanishingly few vegans do take up an armed struggle. I guess there is also a question of what came first, the misanthropy or the veganism, and my life experience tells me misanthropy came first (not in all cases for sure), others may have difference life experiences. To be fair as a counterpoint one of my university lecturers was a vegan and was also a lovely human being.

I ate some venison on the weekend, where the meat had come from a wild woodland animal that was "culled". Deer populations in the UK grow out of control because they have no natural predator any more (no wolves or bears). They are damaging to forests if not culled, and other species disappear if left unchecked because of their effect on the ecosystem. It seemed a reasonable thing to do, tbh. More reasonable than eating rare vegan foods from South America that cause food shortages in local areas and make food miles.

I would like to see government intervention in the form of progressive taxation, vegan restaurants should be paying half price local taxes imo, and be VAT exempt. I would also like to see some roadmap tabled about how we actually keep animal populations alive post a Vegan revolution. With horses for example, we found out that subsequently to them not being used for human transportation any more, that their numbers cratered.

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#86

Post by fori » January 21st, 2019, 12:02 pm

Don't get so defensive, I'm not trying to debate you. These statements: "vegans think sheep are equivalent to people", "they choose their way of life out of misanthropy", "I eat culled animals debate me", "vegans are all stereotypes who eat esoteric vegetables imported by their local co-op" are not helpful. I agree there should be reform about these things, but as for keeping these animal populations, I don't see why we shouldn't let them shrink drastically? Not through murder of course though.

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#87

Post by sebby » January 21st, 2019, 12:08 pm

fori wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 11:18 am
I agree that a lot of vegans may seem aggressive and smug, but as one myself, I urge you to think about it from the other perspective, and where their “misanthropy” comes from. If you shared their convictions, what would you think of your current position?
Additionally I can address some of your points from my own perspective, but I am highly opinionated, and what I say may not represent what most vegans might think.
Right. The meat on your plate and the milk in your glass are there as a result of nearly unimaginable greed, cruelty, and environmental devastation. A vegan being arrogant is analogous to someone who believes in climate change coming off smug while arguing with a denier. It’s not snobbery so much as it is anger mixed with sadness mixed with exasperation.

As far as alternative facts go, try being a vegan debating this stuff with an average carnie. Myths about protein, calcium, soy that have been disproven are still bandied about. Fear tactics and appeals to emotion are used to justify everything. It’s exhausting and dispiriting. The same parent who doesn’t think twice about feeding their child pizza, burgers, and milkshakes will yell CHILD ABUSE when they hear another child is fed a vegan diet consisting of brown rice, tempeh, fruits, vegetables, etc. a special kind of insanity. I don’t even bring up my being vegan anymore unless someone else has already broached the subject because I’m sick of having to educate every ignorant and judgmental person who has an opinion about it. Like politics, I feel diet and nutrition is best left unattended by those who don’t have an understanding of it beyond buzzwords and tired talking points.

And as far as not liking vegan protein, Matthew, just learn how to cook, man. If it’s too hard, take a class. Tofu is super versatile, as are tempeh and seitan. Lentils are very protein dense. And on and on. I would recommend getting a handle on Ethiopian and Indian cuisine, as they are very vegan friendly and flavor rich.

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#88

Post by matthewscott8 » January 21st, 2019, 12:29 pm

fori wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 12:02 pm
Don't get so defensive, I'm not trying to debate you. These statements: "vegans think sheep are equivalent to people", "they choose their way of life out of misanthropy", "I eat culled animals debate me", "vegans are all stereotypes who eat esoteric vegetables imported by their local co-op" are not helpful. I agree there should be reform about these things, but as for keeping these animal populations, I don't see why we shouldn't let them shrink drastically? Not through murder of course though.
well, I genuinely wasn't being defensive although now seeing statements I didn't make in quotation marks has made me feel so. I chose my phrases carefully because this week I saw a vegan advert saying sheep were somebody's. Also although I didn't exactly make the point you put in question marks, I can address it. Some of my brother's vegan friends recently found a dead bird on a walk, they gave the bird a burial and said prayers and sang songs over it. So certainly some vegans do seem to see an equivalence.

I think in terms of the shrinkage point, it seems horrendous maybe when you see it from the other side. Imagine we found out that humans were being farmed by alien overlords. We would not be impressed for sure. But what would we think of the alien whose diet excluded humans and was arguing that we as the alien overlords should gradually make the humans cease to exist instead instead of eating them. The second alien is the one we would be more worried about.

Anyway my thoughts on this are of curiosity. Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered to post as it's such an incendiary subject.

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#89

Post by fori » January 21st, 2019, 12:44 pm

Your trick here is very much not appreciated. You are making a false equivalence between humans and animals that I have just called out, as well as acting like humans in that situation would be impressed with being farmed in the first place. Would you prefer sterilization of a portion of the population or abominable conditions and endless murder and eating of humans by our overlords. “What are we going to do with the animals” is no excuse for continuing to practice the same disgusting acts. Also who said I want these species extinct? Do the farmed animals even comprehend that their species exists in farms around the world, let alone value its existence beyond any animal it could possibly come into contact with? There are so many fallacies in this analogy it is hard to grasp how you thought it would make what I said seem horrendous.
And now I get why vegans seem obnoxious to you, it’s your attitude combined with fallacious reasoning and what may as well be ad hominem insults.

I do not want to be drawn into an argument here.
Last edited by fori on January 21st, 2019, 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#90

Post by matthewscott8 » January 21st, 2019, 12:50 pm

fori wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 12:44 pm
Your trick here is very much not appreciated. You are making a false equivalence between humans and animals that I have just called out, as well as acting like humans in that situation would be impressed with being farmed in the first place. Would you prefer sterilization of a portion of the population or abominable conditions and endless murder and eating of humans by our overlords. “What are we going to do with the animals” is no excuse for continuing to practice the same disgusting acts. There are so many fallacies in this analogy it is hard to grasp how you thought it would make what I said seem horrendous.
And now I get why vegans seem obnoxious to you, it’s your attitude combined with fallacious reasoning and what may as well be ad hominem insults.
I'm not sure what you are classifying as an ad hominem insult, when I pointed out you put statements that I hadn't made in quotations marks, that seems simply factual and I didn't call you a name because of it. Anyway I have been on the internet long enough to know when a conversation has become so adversarial that any remark will be seen in the worst possible light. Such a pity as I was acting in good faith.

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#91

Post by fori » January 21st, 2019, 12:59 pm

What I quoted was in substance the same as what you wrote. I certainly agree this conversation is over.

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#92

Post by matthewscott8 » January 21st, 2019, 1:10 pm

sebby wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 12:08 pm
fori wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 11:18 am
I agree that a lot of vegans may seem aggressive and smug, but as one myself, I urge you to think about it from the other perspective, and where their “misanthropy” comes from. If you shared their convictions, what would you think of your current position?
Additionally I can address some of your points from my own perspective, but I am highly opinionated, and what I say may not represent what most vegans might think.
Right. The meat on your plate and the milk in your glass are there as a result of nearly unimaginable greed, cruelty, and environmental devastation. A vegan being arrogant is analogous to someone who believes in climate change coming off smug while arguing with a denier. It’s not snobbery so much as it is anger mixed with sadness mixed with exasperation.

As far as alternative facts go, try being a vegan debating this stuff with an average carnie. Myths about protein, calcium, soy that have been disproven are still bandied about. Fear tactics and appeals to emotion are used to justify everything. It’s exhausting and dispiriting. The same parent who doesn’t think twice about feeding their child pizza, burgers, and milkshakes will yell CHILD ABUSE when they hear another child is fed a vegan diet consisting of brown rice, tempeh, fruits, vegetables, etc. a special kind of insanity. I don’t even bring up my being vegan anymore unless someone else has already broached the subject because I’m sick of having to educate every ignorant and judgmental person who has an opinion about it. Like politics, I feel diet and nutrition is best left unattended by those who don’t have an understanding of it beyond buzzwords and tired talking points.

And as far as not liking vegan protein, Matthew, just learn how to cook, man. If it’s too hard, take a class. Tofu is super versatile, as are tempeh and seitan. Lentils are very protein dense. And on and on. I would recommend getting a handle on Ethiopian and Indian cuisine, as they are very vegan friendly and flavor rich.
I agree with your statement about unimaginable greed, cruelty and environmental devastation. Humans seem to have an unfortunate habit in general of being the mammalian locust, and I would add unsentimentality to that list as well. I also agree that screaming child abuse in the case you mentioned is ridiculous, and in fact seeing as there is good reason to believe that dietary habits are formed early on, it seems like a good idea to try vegan diets with kids. The point I raise regarding greed and devastation etc is that I imagine the post vegan world will still see all those traits, and I do not imagine people training as vets to help animals with their labour, or old age, or keeping predators away from them, or in fact doing anything whatsoever to keep these species alive.

I am interested in finding out how to eat vegan. I also approach it with a lot of trepidation, I have an identical twin brother who went meat free a few years back (and since went back to omnivory). In the space of one year he put on four stones weight (25 kilos) and developed depression. The point I am making is that this transition is a lot more difficult for some than others. For my mother it would involve not much more than ceasing to eating fish fingers on Friday.

I also appreciate that debating the area on a daily basis must be very annoying for you

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#93

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » January 21st, 2019, 3:37 pm

I eat chicken once or twice a week (in curries, stir-fries, etc.). I do feel increasingly guilty of it though and honestly find that I enjoy a vegan-based diet very much. I don't know whether I will ever phase meat completely out of my meals but I am particularly glad to have given up all processed meats, bacon and meat-based sausages.
That's all, folks!

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#94

Post by nimimerkillinen » January 21st, 2019, 3:49 pm

there are habitats for factory farmed animals in different places in the world, if we would just stop adding to that process then i doubt any would get extinct. there would probably be more animal sanctuaries for people to visit etc

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#95

Post by mjf314 » January 21st, 2019, 6:49 pm

sebby wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 7:40 am
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11079642

“The olive oil meal reduced FMD 31%.” This is really bad, similar to endothelial impairment you would see hours after someone ate cake and French fries.
In this study, the meal that reduced FMD 31% consisted of whole-grain bread and 50g EVOO.
Maybe they ate too much EVOO. Too much of any food can be bad for you. Usually I don't eat more than 1 tbsp EVOO in a meal, which is 14g.

They also tested four other meals:
Canola oil + whole-grain bread
Salmon + crackers
EVOO + whole-grain bread + vitamin supplements
EVOO + whole-grain bread + vegetables

The two other EVOO meals decreased FMD less than the first EVOO meal, less than the canola oil meal, and more than the salmon meal (but not much more).
I guess I don't have much to worry about, because when I eat EVOO, it's usually with vegetables.
sebby wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 7:40 am
Also I’ve done a lot of study on the Mediterranean diet, and the benefits are from the high fruit vegetable and nut consumption, which can undo and even prevent the potential damage that is done by oil and fish consumption. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... 21C47BC1BF Greeks following Mediterranean diet who nevertheless suffered from higher incidences of heart disease are those who consumed more oil and fewer carbs and fiber (ie, more oils and fish, less fruit veg and grains).
I didn't read the entire paper so maybe I missed it, but where does it say anything about a correlation between heart disease and eating more oils and fish?
On the last page it says that heart disease has increased in the last 30 years in Crete, which may be related to exercising less and eating more meat and cheese.

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#96

Post by Armoreska » January 21st, 2019, 8:01 pm

matthewscott8 wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 11:11 am
vegans I meet are usually self-righteous people
First of all, I envy that you get to meet not 1 but multiple vegans. (D:)
Secondly, so you're not going to be self-righteous (feel morally superior) if you meet an (unprosecuted) murderer, drug addict, sex offender, pet abuser, asian who eats dogs or neo-nazi?
matthewscott8 wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 11:11 am
Also they never seem to have any answers about what happens to the animals after we stop needing to eat meat, given that most of the world's animals are part of the human foodchain.
I don't know why that's even a genuine question that people's brains are unable to answer when this ridiculous notion pops up. You can find an answer on YouTube or by googling.
In a non-fairytale situation (where just about everyone doesn't instantly stop eating meat), farm animals will gradually get phased out and be regarded as pets. They don't actually reproduce of their own accord, so there's no sudden problem of unwanted overpopulation.
matthewscott8 wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 11:11 am
Despite this I am genuinely interested in reducing meat intake, for environmental reasons, and particularly making sure I eat meat where the standards of husbandry were very high.
Well, thanks for that, at least.

Enjoyed reading all the arguments that I didn't have to get involved in, and seeing that the forum may have higher vegan population than my city. tehe
Last edited by Armoreska on January 21st, 2019, 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
currently working towards a vegan/low waste world + thru such film lists (besides TV): 2010s bests, RW Fassbinder, Luis Bunuel, Yasujiro Ozu, Eric Rohmer, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, 17+ sci-fi lists on watchlist, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo

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#97

Post by Onderhond » January 21st, 2019, 8:26 pm

Armoreska wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 8:01 pm
Secondly, so you're not going to be self-righteous (feel morally superior) if you meet an (unprosecuted) murderer, drug addict, sex offender, pet abuser, asian who eats dogs or neo-nazi?
Big difference between what you feel and how you act. You can feel whatever, but if you even want to consider acting morally superior you should learn to get along with people who think and act different from you.

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#98

Post by Armoreska » January 21st, 2019, 8:31 pm

Sure, it's not helpful. But a lot of people can't help themselves.
Image
currently working towards a vegan/low waste world + thru such film lists (besides TV): 2010s bests, RW Fassbinder, Luis Bunuel, Yasujiro Ozu, Eric Rohmer, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, 17+ sci-fi lists on watchlist, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo

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#99

Post by matthewscott8 » January 21st, 2019, 10:40 pm

Armoreska wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 8:01 pm
matthewscott8 wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 11:11 am
vegans I meet are usually self-righteous people
First of all, I envy that you get to meet not 1 but multiple vegans. (D:)
Secondly, so you're not going to be self-righteous (feel morally superior) if you meet an (unprosecuted) murderer, drug addict, sex offender, pet abuser, asian who eats dogs or neo-nazi?
matthewscott8 wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 11:11 am
Also they never seem to have any answers about what happens to the animals after we stop needing to eat meat, given that most of the world's animals are part of the human foodchain.
I don't know why that's even a genuine question that people's brains are unable to answer when this ridiculous notion pops up. You can find an answer on YouTube or by googling.
In a non-fairytale situation (where just about everyone doesn't instantly stop eating meat), farm animals will gradually get phased out and be regarded as pets. They don't actually reproduce of their own accord, so there's no sudden problem of unwanted overpopulation.
matthewscott8 wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 11:11 am
Despite this I am genuinely interested in reducing meat intake, for environmental reasons, and particularly making sure I eat meat where the standards of husbandry were very high.
Well, thanks for that, at least.

Enjoyed reading all the arguments that I didn't have to get involved in, and seeing that the forum may have higher vegan population than my city. tehe
I guess there are multiple vegan philosophies, the vegans I know don't believe in having pets, although technically speaking thats a more general animal rights issue I guess. I don't ever feel morally self righteous to people, everyone seems to have their reasons for the way they behave. I only believe in law enforcement for protection reasons not punishment. I definitely do get frustrated by arguments.

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#100

Post by sebby » January 21st, 2019, 11:25 pm

I'm pretty sick today so will jump back in to the debate later. Regarding virtually all oils disrupting endothelial function similarly: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17174226

i mean, it's an unnaturally concentrated liquid fat source -- what else would one reasonably expect? olive oil does (potentially -- a lot more noise in + OO studies, I've found) have some benefits other oils do not, but then why not just eat olives.

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#101

Post by sebby » January 21st, 2019, 11:31 pm

matthewscott8 wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 10:40 pm
I guess there are multiple vegan philosophies, the vegans I know don't believe in having pets, although technically speaking thats a more general animal rights issue I guess. I don't ever feel morally self righteous to people, everyone seems to have their reasons for the way they behave. I only believe in law enforcement for protection reasons not punishment. I definitely do get frustrated by arguments.
this is a form of extremism to which most vegans do not adhere. these are the insane PETA vegans who would rather an animal be killed than kept as a pet. similar in my mind to sport hunters on the fuck animal rights side of things; two sides of the same extremist coin. dogs have undergone changes via domestication that makes it near impossible to introduce them back into the wild without it being an absolute slaughter. perhaps they should not have been domesticated in the first place, but that's a genie you can't put back in the bottle.

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#102

Post by sebby » January 21st, 2019, 11:39 pm

mjf314 wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 6:49 pm
sebby wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 7:40 am
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11079642

“The olive oil meal reduced FMD 31%.” This is really bad, similar to endothelial impairment you would see hours after someone ate cake and French fries.
In this study, the meal that reduced FMD 31% consisted of whole-grain bread and 50g EVOO.
Maybe they ate too much EVOO. Too much of any food can be bad for you. Usually I don't eat more than 1 tbsp EVOO in a meal, which is 14g.

They also tested four other meals:
Canola oil + whole-grain bread
Salmon + crackers
EVOO + whole-grain bread + vitamin supplements
EVOO + whole-grain bread + vegetables

The two other EVOO meals decreased FMD less than the first EVOO meal, less than the canola oil meal, and more than the salmon meal (but not much more).
I guess I don't have much to worry about, because when I eat EVOO, it's usually with vegetables.
sebby wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 7:40 am
Also I’ve done a lot of study on the Mediterranean diet, and the benefits are from the high fruit vegetable and nut consumption, which can undo and even prevent the potential damage that is done by oil and fish consumption. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... 21C47BC1BF Greeks following Mediterranean diet who nevertheless suffered from higher incidences of heart disease are those who consumed more oil and fewer carbs and fiber (ie, more oils and fish, less fruit veg and grains).
I didn't read the entire paper so maybe I missed it, but where does it say anything about a correlation between heart disease and eating more oils and fish?
On the last page it says that heart disease has increased in the last 30 years in Crete, which may be related to exercising less and eating more meat and cheese.
Those patients had much higher quantities of MUFA in their blood. You don't get those from meat and cheese. As you deduced earlier, you can mitigate the damage from OO by combining with high antioxidant foods (fruit, veg, red wine vinegar) which this group was not consuming enough of. Of course more meat and cheese just exacerbates the problem. Also, I take meat to include fish -- perhaps in other parts of the world they are not of the same category? AFAIK all animal flesh = meat by definition.

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#103

Post by Armoreska » January 22nd, 2019, 12:03 am

sebby wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 11:25 pm
why not just eat olives.
Exactly. So tasty. But then there's the preservatives.
In my case, sunflower seeds. They're like a dollar or two per kilo, shelled.
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currently working towards a vegan/low waste world + thru such film lists (besides TV): 2010s bests, RW Fassbinder, Luis Bunuel, Yasujiro Ozu, Eric Rohmer, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, 17+ sci-fi lists on watchlist, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo

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#104

Post by mjf314 » January 22nd, 2019, 1:10 am

sebby wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 11:25 pm
I'm pretty sick today so will jump back in to the debate later. Regarding virtually all oils disrupting endothelial function similarly: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17174226
In this study they eat potato soup, which contains 541 calories of oil (about 60g, even more than the other study), and about 596 calories in total. They don't seem to specify if it's extra virgin, unless I missed it.

I guess we can agree that olive oil as part of an unbalanced diet is bad for you. I'm not convinced that EVOO as part of a balanced diet will have the same negative consequences. I'm also not convinced that performing tests a few hours after a meal is the most accurate way to evaluate longterm health effects.

Here's a study that included 7216 people, carried out over years.
https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/a ... 7015-12-78
"Olive oil consumption, specifically the extra-virgin variety, is associated with reduced risks of cardiovascular disease and mortality in individuals at high cardiovascular risk."
sebby wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 11:25 pm
i mean, it's an unnaturally concentrated liquid fat source -- what else would one reasonably expect? olive oil does (potentially -- a lot more noise in + OO studies, I've found) have some benefits other oils do not, but then why not just eat olives.
It's hard to find olives that don't have added salt. I also hate the taste of olives, but I like the taste of olive oil.
Vegetables taste much better when I add olive oil and garlic, so if I avoid oil, I'll probably eat less vegetables.

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#105

Post by sebby » January 22nd, 2019, 1:22 am

the predimed study has a ton of noise w regard to OO. one can draw several conclusions from it. eg the group consuming olive oil saw no added benefits over 5 years compared to the two groups that do not consume it. the more sensible conclusion to draw is that the med diet works regardless of OO consumption. in fact the nut group had better health markers (as i would have guessed). so if you're not getting any real benefit from OO, why use i?

well...

if OO means you eat more veggies then go for it. net positive. never buy italian olive oil though. you're better off sticking with cali OO, but that's a whole nother disco.

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#106

Post by mjf314 » January 22nd, 2019, 1:31 am

sebby wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 11:39 pm
Those patients had much higher quantities of MUFA in their blood. You don't get those from meat and cheese. As you deduced earlier, you can mitigate the damage from OO by combining with high antioxidant foods (fruit, veg, red wine vinegar) which this group was not consuming enough of. Of course more meat and cheese just exacerbates the problem. Also, I take meat to include fish -- perhaps in other parts of the world they are not of the same category? AFAIK all animal flesh = meat by definition.
"The Cretans now have higher saturated fat (+25 %) and lower monounsaturated fat (-20 %) intakes, indicating increases in the consumption of meat and cheese."

Where I live, "meat" usually refers to meats other than fish, but it could refer to fish.
I assumed they were talking about meats other than fish, because fish is usually considered a healthier source of fat than other meats, although it depends on the type of fish.

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#107

Post by sebby » January 22nd, 2019, 1:37 am

mjf314 wrote:
January 22nd, 2019, 1:10 am
sebby wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 11:25 pm
I'm pretty sick today so will jump back in to the debate later. Regarding virtually all oils disrupting endothelial function similarly: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17174226
I'm also not convinced that performing tests a few hours after a meal is the most accurate way to evaluate longterm health effects.

---

Well it's one of nearly myriad ways to evaluate how foods affect the body. there is no perfect methodology here. if oil heavy meals stiffen the arteries and inhibit blood flow, that's a bad thing. i think that's pretty cut and dry. cigarettes do the same thing. red meat does the same thing. cheesecake does the same thing. not great company to keep. i can't think of any "healthy" food that behaves the same way. but of course i'm not a doctor, just an amateur that studies this shit for fun, so maybe there are studies out there demonizing kale or whatever.

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#108

Post by sebby » January 22nd, 2019, 1:52 am

mjf314 wrote:
January 22nd, 2019, 1:31 am
sebby wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 11:39 pm
Those patients had much higher quantities of MUFA in their blood. You don't get those from meat and cheese. As you deduced earlier, you can mitigate the damage from OO by combining with high antioxidant foods (fruit, veg, red wine vinegar) which this group was not consuming enough of. Of course more meat and cheese just exacerbates the problem. Also, I take meat to include fish -- perhaps in other parts of the world they are not of the same category? AFAIK all animal flesh = meat by definition.
"The Cretans now have higher saturated fat (+25 %) and lower monounsaturated fat (-20 %) intakes, indicating increases in the consumption of meat and cheese."

Where I live, "meat" usually refers to meats other than fish, but it could refer to fish.
I assumed they were talking about meats other than fish, because fish is usually considered a healthier source of fat than other meats, although it depends on the type of fish.
many of the fish touted as healthy replacements are just a lateral move from red meat or poultry as they are so utterly polluted (more so in the US than anywhere else fwiw). eg salmon is loaded with PCBs including hexachlorobenzene which has been linked to everything from liver disease to nervous system disorders to various cancers (via animal studies). old age diseases don't just pop up from out of nowhere. they aren't a natural consequence of getting old, but the finish line that we hit after a life's worth of direct and indirect, chosen and not, exposure to various body and mind disruptors -- many of which come from what we put in our mouths.

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#109

Post by mjf314 » January 22nd, 2019, 2:59 am

sebby wrote:
January 22nd, 2019, 1:22 am
the predimed study has a ton of noise w regard to OO. one can draw several conclusions from it. eg the group consuming olive oil saw no added benefits over 5 years compared to the two groups that do not consume it. the more sensible conclusion to draw is that the med diet works regardless of OO consumption. in fact the nut group had better health markers (as i would have guessed). so if you're not getting any real benefit from OO, why use i?
On which page does it say that the nut group had better health markers?

In both groups (the EVOO group and the nut group), the people who ate the most olive oil showed lower risk (page 7), unless I'm misunderstanding something.
"In both MedDiet groups of our study (supplemented either with EVOO or nuts), participants in the top tertile of total olive oil consumption at baseline showed a lower risk of major events compared to those in the lowest tertile, but no associations were found for those individuals allocated to the control group.
In table 3 it seems significant, 111 major cardiovascular events in the low tertile, and 65 in the high tertile.
sebby wrote:
January 22nd, 2019, 1:52 am
many of the fish touted as healthy replacements are just a lateral move from red meat or poultry as they are so utterly polluted (more so in the US than anywhere else fwiw). eg salmon is loaded with PCBs including hexachlorobenzene which has been linked to everything from liver disease to nervous system disorders to various cancers (via animal studies).
Wild salmon is typically much lower in PCBs than farmed salmon.

I forgot to mention earlier, I buy California Olive Ranch olive oil. It has the COOC seal, so they do tests to make sure it meets certain standards.

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#110

Post by sebby » January 22nd, 2019, 3:33 am

mjf314 wrote:
January 22nd, 2019, 2:59 am
sebby wrote:
January 22nd, 2019, 1:22 am
the predimed study has a ton of noise w regard to OO. one can draw several conclusions from it. eg the group consuming olive oil saw no added benefits over 5 years compared to the two groups that do not consume it. the more sensible conclusion to draw is that the med diet works regardless of OO consumption. in fact the nut group had better health markers (as i would have guessed). so if you're not getting any real benefit from OO, why use i?
On which page does it say that the nut group had better health markers?

In both groups (the EVOO group and the nut group), the people who ate the most olive oil showed lower risk (page 7), unless I'm misunderstanding something.
"In both MedDiet groups of our study (supplemented either with EVOO or nuts), participants in the top tertile of total olive oil consumption at baseline showed a lower risk of major events compared to those in the lowest tertile, but no associations were found for those individuals allocated to the control group.
In table 3 it seems significant, 111 major cardiovascular events in the low tertile, and 65 in the high tertile.
sebby wrote:
January 22nd, 2019, 1:52 am
many of the fish touted as healthy replacements are just a lateral move from red meat or poultry as they are so utterly polluted (more so in the US than anywhere else fwiw). eg salmon is loaded with PCBs including hexachlorobenzene which has been linked to everything from liver disease to nervous system disorders to various cancers (via animal studies).
Wild salmon is typically much lower in PCBs than farmed salmon.

I forgot to mention earlier, I buy California Olive Ranch olive oil. It has the COOC seal, so they do tests to make sure it meets certain standards.
"After 1-y follow-up, participants in the MeDiet + nuts group showed a significant 13.7% reduction in prevalence of metabolic syndrome compared with reductions of 6.7% and 2.0% in the MeDiet + EVOO and control groups, respectively."

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#111

Post by sebby » January 22nd, 2019, 3:39 am

Regarding salmon, depends on location. Alaskan wild salmon is less polluted than farmed; opposite is true for norwegian. problem there is that norwegian fish farming is incredibly ecologically devastating so it's an ethical quandary to choose the healthier option if you feel you must eat fish.

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#112

Post by mjf314 » January 22nd, 2019, 4:43 am

sebby wrote:
January 22nd, 2019, 3:33 am
"After 1-y follow-up, participants in the MeDiet + nuts group showed a significant 13.7% reduction in prevalence of metabolic syndrome compared with reductions of 6.7% and 2.0% in the MeDiet + EVOO and control groups, respectively."
It seems to me that both olive oil and nuts have benefits, so maybe it's a good idea to eat both. All 3 groups ate olive oil, if I'm not mistaken. Is there any evidence that eating olive oil in addition to nuts lessens the benefits of the nuts, or has other negative consequences, assuming you eat it as part of a balanced meal?

Usually I eat wild Alaskan salmon. I didn't know about the Norwegian fish situation, but I'll keep it in mind if ever go to Norway.

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#113

Post by sebby » January 22nd, 2019, 5:37 am

mjf314 wrote:
January 22nd, 2019, 4:43 am
sebby wrote:
January 22nd, 2019, 3:33 am
"After 1-y follow-up, participants in the MeDiet + nuts group showed a significant 13.7% reduction in prevalence of metabolic syndrome compared with reductions of 6.7% and 2.0% in the MeDiet + EVOO and control groups, respectively."
It seems to me that both olive oil and nuts have benefits, so maybe it's a good idea to eat both. All 3 groups ate olive oil, if I'm not mistaken. Is there any evidence that eating olive oil in addition to nuts lessens the benefits of the nuts, or has other negative consequences, assuming you eat it as part of a balanced meal?

Usually I eat wild Alaskan salmon. I didn't know about the Norwegian fish situation, but I'll keep it in mind if ever go to Norway.
I don’t know of any nut studies that have also included Olive oil in that way (And boy have I read many nut studies) so tough to say.

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#114

Post by Onderhond » January 22nd, 2019, 6:34 am

I guess the discussion above is a good illustration of why many people just can't be bothered with "healthy". Science really dropped the ball there, because there is so much misinformation and interpretation that the return of investment just isn't there.

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#115

Post by sebby » January 22nd, 2019, 6:50 am

The ROI is huge swings in QOL and literal life and death. Yes, one can’t say what the ideal diet is, but if you do the research you’ll come to many of the same conclusions again and again. The importance of fruits and vegetables, particularly greens, cannot be overstated. Nuts and legumes are right there as well. These are things the average person would likely claim to know, and yet if you look at the average diet, all of these foods are in dire need of being doubled, tripled, quadrupled, etc. People will spend more time during their lives figuring out which cars or laptops to purchase than researching what to put into their bodies. It’s sort of mind-boggling. Most people know that kale and blueberries are healthy and that potato chips and steak are not; what they don’t know is why and What the consequences are of putting these foods into their body regularly.

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#116

Post by Onderhond » January 22nd, 2019, 7:50 am

The ROI seems to be an extended life while you're spending your best years reading up on science after a hard day of work. Unless something else hits you and kills you.
Also, if you try to look up any of these things, you just get plenty of conflicting information and no tools to decipher what is real and what isn't, unless you get intimate with the science.

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#117

Post by nimimerkillinen » January 22nd, 2019, 12:51 pm

matthewscott8 wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 10:40 pm
Armoreska wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 8:01 pm
matthewscott8 wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 11:11 am
vegans I meet are usually self-righteous people
First of all, I envy that you get to meet not 1 but multiple vegans. (D:)
Secondly, so you're not going to be self-righteous (feel morally superior) if you meet an (unprosecuted) murderer, drug addict, sex offender, pet abuser, asian who eats dogs or neo-nazi?
matthewscott8 wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 11:11 am
Also they never seem to have any answers about what happens to the animals after we stop needing to eat meat, given that most of the world's animals are part of the human foodchain.
I don't know why that's even a genuine question that people's brains are unable to answer when this ridiculous notion pops up. You can find an answer on YouTube or by googling.
In a non-fairytale situation (where just about everyone doesn't instantly stop eating meat), farm animals will gradually get phased out and be regarded as pets. They don't actually reproduce of their own accord, so there's no sudden problem of unwanted overpopulation.
matthewscott8 wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 11:11 am
Despite this I am genuinely interested in reducing meat intake, for environmental reasons, and particularly making sure I eat meat where the standards of husbandry were very high.
Well, thanks for that, at least.

Enjoyed reading all the arguments that I didn't have to get involved in, and seeing that the forum may have higher vegan population than my city. tehe
I guess there are multiple vegan philosophies, the vegans I know don't believe in having pets, although technically speaking thats a more general animal rights issue I guess. I don't ever feel morally self righteous to people, everyone seems to have their reasons for the way they behave. I only believe in law enforcement for protection reasons not punishment. I definitely do get frustrated by arguments.
what do they think if they or someone has pet already? should they kill them? it would be the altruistic thing to do if they are carnivore or omnivore
im otherwise vegan atm but got two cats, wont kill them but looking for ways to feed them more ethically. ive thought about fishing, even tho i absolutely hate the idea of killing the fish, it would be far more ethical thing to do than buy from store

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#118

Post by nimimerkillinen » January 22nd, 2019, 12:54 pm

sebby wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 11:25 pm
I'm pretty sick today so will jump back in to the debate later. Regarding virtually all oils disrupting endothelial function similarly: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17174226

i mean, it's an unnaturally concentrated liquid fat source -- what else would one reasonably expect? olive oil does (potentially -- a lot more noise in + OO studies, I've found) have some benefits other oils do not, but then why not just eat olives.
avocado? coconut? macadamian? mct? (last two not cooked)

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#119

Post by nimimerkillinen » January 22nd, 2019, 12:55 pm

Armoreska wrote:
January 22nd, 2019, 12:03 am
sebby wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 11:25 pm
why not just eat olives.
Exactly. So tasty. But then there's the preservatives.
In my case, sunflower seeds. They're like a dollar or two per kilo, shelled.
they dont have pesticide traces or such?

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#120

Post by nimimerkillinen » January 22nd, 2019, 12:57 pm

mjf314 wrote:
January 22nd, 2019, 1:10 am
sebby wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 11:25 pm
I'm pretty sick today so will jump back in to the debate later. Regarding virtually all oils disrupting endothelial function similarly: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17174226
In this study they eat potato soup, which contains 541 calories of oil (about 60g, even more than the other study), and about 596 calories in total. They don't seem to specify if it's extra virgin, unless I missed it.

I guess we can agree that olive oil as part of an unbalanced diet is bad for you. I'm not convinced that EVOO as part of a balanced diet will have the same negative consequences. I'm also not convinced that performing tests a few hours after a meal is the most accurate way to evaluate longterm health effects.

Here's a study that included 7216 people, carried out over years.
https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/a ... 7015-12-78
"Olive oil consumption, specifically the extra-virgin variety, is associated with reduced risks of cardiovascular disease and mortality in individuals at high cardiovascular risk."
sebby wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 11:25 pm
i mean, it's an unnaturally concentrated liquid fat source -- what else would one reasonably expect? olive oil does (potentially -- a lot more noise in + OO studies, I've found) have some benefits other oils do not, but then why not just eat olives.
It's hard to find olives that don't have added salt. I also hate the taste of olives, but I like the taste of olive oil.
Vegetables taste much better when I add olive oil and garlic, so if I avoid oil, I'll probably eat less vegetables.
olive oil shouldnt be cooked in high heat and extra virgin not at all or something like that
probably good for salads tho!
olives go well with veggiestake i think, i put also sun dried tomato, maybe tomatopyre, those little onions, pickled beetroot/pumpkin/cucumber

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