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Armoreska
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#441

Post by Armoreska »

thanks, F. added a few off the top, except not sure about Shortbus.
removed To Wong Foo

huh, Fight Club?

NB list inc 1967 anime series
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/non- ... armoreska/

updated intersex list
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/inte ... armoreska/

Steven Universe gets everywhere
Last edited by Armoreska on November 26th, 2020, 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ANARCHISTS, ANIMAL RIGHTS, Assisted suicide, Existential films, SOCIALIST CINEMA (an amalgamation of lists), Feminist lists, various GSSRM lists (aka LGBTQ+), 2010s bests, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, mah huge sci-fi list, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
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#442

Post by xianjiro »

Other than the masturbation scene, I don't remember Shortbus though clearly John Cameron Mitchell's earned queer bona fides.

The author of Fight Club is very queer. Check out the following:
https://www.indiewire.com/2017/07/best- ... 1851309/2/
and
https://www.jackdurden.com/

And do more searching. I remember reading something in the way of literary critique - might have been someone's thesis or other college paper - that viewed the work through a queer lens. I'm not saying it's overtly queer, but the very transgressive, hyper-macho nature of the work makes it hard to ignore the queer implications given the author's queerness.
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#443

Post by Armoreska »

Armoreska wrote: November 26th, 2020, 12:24 am Steven Universe gets everywhere
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Looks like it's not on the trans char list. I guess they're all assigned correctly in their universe.
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/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
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#444

Post by Mario Gaborović »

About this...
https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/non- ... ort=checks

Onaj koji će ostati neprimjećen (The One Who Will Stay Unnoticed) has a straightforward non-gender character, and it's one of the three main protagonists actually (played by a woman).

There's also some other local productions where one's sexuality is intentionally unclear, but I dunno if that falls into this category. :mellow: Not sure what type of characters are you looking for actually. I can name & explain them in details if you want.
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#445

Post by Armoreska »

I've added the non-binary keyword to its title on IMDb. You can make sure those movies have some kind of keyword attached.
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/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
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#446

Post by Mario Gaborović »

Armoreska wrote: November 26th, 2020, 7:31 pm I've added the non-binary keyword to its title on IMDb. You can make sure those movies have some kind of keyword attached.
How do you label 'possibly gay but maybe not' characters?

And, does character who crossdresses falls into one of your lists? :D
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#447

Post by Armoreska »

he or A. or Armo or any

Image
currently working towards a vegan/free world + thru such film lists: GODARD, r/antinatalism recommends,..
the rest
ANARCHISTS, ANIMAL RIGHTS, Assisted suicide, Existential films, SOCIALIST CINEMA (an amalgamation of lists), Feminist lists, various GSSRM lists (aka LGBTQ+), 2010s bests, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, mah huge sci-fi list, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
imaginary awards | youtube channels | complaint lounge | explain how big a fan of slavery you are here, ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1535 and here: ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4484
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#448

Post by Armoreska »

he or A. or Armo or any

Image
currently working towards a vegan/free world + thru such film lists: GODARD, r/antinatalism recommends,..
the rest
ANARCHISTS, ANIMAL RIGHTS, Assisted suicide, Existential films, SOCIALIST CINEMA (an amalgamation of lists), Feminist lists, various GSSRM lists (aka LGBTQ+), 2010s bests, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, mah huge sci-fi list, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
imaginary awards | youtube channels | complaint lounge | explain how big a fan of slavery you are here, ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1535 and here: ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4484
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#449

Post by kongs_speech »

That's an amazingly written letter. As someone who identifies as non-binary, I think it's fucking awesome to see an a-list celebrity come out as anything other than cis. Rock on, Elliot.
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#450

Post by Pretentious Hipster »

Definitely glad, just don't like it when people say latinx, as that's cultural imperialism as it's American, or American-based people, injecting it into the less fortunate countries. They might have had a point... if spanish didn't have a gender neutral term. They do. It's latine.
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#451

Post by Fergenaprido »

When you said "a-list celebrity", my first thought was "I've never heard of Elliot Page." Now realizing that it's the lead from Juno, it makes more sense. Kudos to him for going public with this step of his journey.

I've never heard of "latine", but I do like it better than "latinx". Just read a couple of articles about it. Glad to be more informed.
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#452

Post by tommy_leazaq »

Is there any gender neutral word in English for singular pronouns ? If not, its high time they find some. Lot of time I make mistakes with He/She/Him/His/Her when talking/writing about transgenders in general, that sometime people find insulting or offending even though that is not my intention. So to stay out of trouble , would love to have some neutral words. :)
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#453

Post by Fergenaprido »

tommy_leazaq wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 9:29 am Is there any gender neutral word in English for singular pronouns ? If not, its high time they find some. Lot of time I make mistakes with He/She/Him/His/Her when talking/writing about transgenders in general, that sometime people find insulting or offending.
singular "they/them/their" have been around for a while. I don't know when it became common (maybe early 2010s), but I've been using it for at least 15 years as an alternative to "he/she", "him/her", and "his/hers".
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#454

Post by prodigalgodson »

tommy_leazaq wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 9:29 am If not, its high time they find some.
And there it is!
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#455

Post by kongs_speech »

tommy_leazaq wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 9:29 am Is there any gender neutral word in English for singular pronouns ? If not, its high time they find some. Lot of time I make mistakes with He/She/Him/His/Her when talking/writing about transgenders in general, that sometime people find insulting or offending even though that is not my intention. So to stay out of trouble , would love to have some neutral words. :)
Some may argue that it's not singular, but as someone who doesn't identify as either gender, I prefer they/them. (Hence why it's in my signature.) I've seen stuff like ze/zim or xe/xir, and if somebody is happy using that, more power to them and I will call them that, but it's not right for me.
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#456

Post by tommy_leazaq »

Fergenaprido wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 9:35 am
tommy_leazaq wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 9:29 am Is there any gender neutral word in English for singular pronouns ? If not, its high time they find some. Lot of time I make mistakes with He/She/Him/His/Her when talking/writing about transgenders in general, that sometime people find insulting or offending.
singular "they/them/their" have been around for a while. I don't know when it became common (maybe early 2010s), but I've been using it for at least 15 years as an alternative to "he/she", "him/her", and "his/hers".
I know of singular they/them/their as in denoting a (indefinite) person genreally. Like, "Someone left their bag here". Didn't know its been used as the substitute for singular pronouns when denoting a transgender person, as well

When denoting a specific person, like "I saw Sam today. She came late actually", using "They" instead of "She" doesn't feel right when specifically talking about Sam. But if that is the norm now, then I'll try to adopt.

But honestly would like a singular word. "They/Them" and all feels like grouping them together and feels like lacking individuality.
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#457

Post by Fergenaprido »

tommy_leazaq wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 9:58 am
Fergenaprido wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 9:35 am
tommy_leazaq wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 9:29 am Is there any gender neutral word in English for singular pronouns ? If not, its high time they find some. Lot of time I make mistakes with He/She/Him/His/Her when talking/writing about transgenders in general, that sometime people find insulting or offending.
singular "they/them/their" have been around for a while. I don't know when it became common (maybe early 2010s), but I've been using it for at least 15 years as an alternative to "he/she", "him/her", and "his/hers".
I know of singular they/them/their as in denoting a (indefinite) person genreally. Like, "Someone left their bag here". Didn't know its been used as the substitute for singular pronouns when denoting a transgender person, as well

When denoting a specific person, like "I saw Sam today. She came late actually", using "They" instead of "She" doesn't feel right when specifically talking about Sam. But if that is the norm now, then I'll try to adopt.

But honestly would like a singular word. "They/Them" and all feels like grouping them together and feels like lacking individuality.
There's nothing specific for transgender individuals. Most of them prefer the pronouns of their new gender, i.e. a transgender woman would use She/Her/Hers, and a transgender man would use He/Him/His. Some do use They/Them/Their, but just because someone is transgender doesn't mean they automatically stop using gendered pronouns.

For example, in this article about Elliot Page, all of the pronouns used to describe him are masculine - even when referencing his work when he identified as a woman, such as his starring role in Juno, the article never refers to him as "she". There's another person in the article named Faith Fundal who identifies as non-binary, so the article uses gender-neutral pronouns to refer to them.

If you're interested in reading more on the subject, these sections of two Wikipedia articles may provide more information:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_ne ... h#Pronouns
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_ne ... ns#English
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#458

Post by nimimerkillinen »

seen 15 from that list
past few months ive been watching rupaul's drag race and all star version of it, so entertaining. still 3 seasons to go
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#459

Post by Onderhond »

nimimerkillinen wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 1:06 pm past few months ive been watching rupaul's drag race and all star version of it, so entertaining. still 3 seasons to go
You should watch the Thai version, so much nicer :)
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#460

Post by nimimerkillinen »

Onderhond wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 1:15 pm
nimimerkillinen wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 1:06 pm past few months ive been watching rupaul's drag race and all star version of it, so entertaining. still 3 seasons to go
You should watch the Thai version, so much nicer :)
are there english subs for it somewhere?
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#461

Post by Onderhond »

nimimerkillinen wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 1:39 pm are there english subs for it somewhere?
Only season 2 I think (fansubs - but very good/informative ones).

Contestants aren't as whiny compared to the American version, queens are also more creative. The English spin-off is pretty funny too.
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#462

Post by nimimerkillinen »

Onderhond wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 1:43 pm
nimimerkillinen wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 1:39 pm are there english subs for it somewhere?
Only season 2 I think (fansubs - but very good/informative ones).

Contestants aren't as whiny compared to the American version, queens are also more creative. The English spin-off is pretty funny too.
nice, where could one find those subs?
i watched canadas version too and there was some great lipsyncs
i'll watch UK and Holland, Secret Celebrity Drag Race and Vegas Revue too
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#463

Post by Onderhond »

Canada was fun, Holland was a letdown though. Secret Celebrity wasn't that fun either (mostly because we knew none of the celebs), Vegas Revue was a bit too much drama.

The only series we haven't seen yet are the South-American ones.
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#464

Post by xianjiro »

tommy_leazaq wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 9:29 am Is there any gender neutral word in English for singular pronouns ? If not, its high time they find some. Lot of time I make mistakes with He/She/Him/His/Her when talking/writing about transgenders in general, that sometime people find insulting or offending even though that is not my intention. So to stay out of trouble , would love to have some neutral words. :)
I'd also prefer if we added a new gender-free singular pronoun. Can't say xe/xhe works very well since it doesn't pronounce easily in English (and has similar confusion in other languages). Ze is fine, but zh (in zhe) isn't an expected consonant digraph: it is okay to read, but again, won't be easy to say.

Of course I have no concern about respecting they/them/their when speaking with an individual who is present, but I do regularly have trouble when talking about a family member of a friend who identifies as non-binary, especially in a fast-moving conversation like "how's the family?" Since I've never actually met the individual, it's much harder for me to remember who we are talking about, especially if we're discussion holiday plans or the like. I tend to use the individual's name to be clear in context but constantly have to ask for clarification from my friend, especially when we are talking of the individual and that person's significant other (again, someone I haven't met but know of).

I wonder how many times I've thought I understood those conversations when I actually haven't because of the trip over they/them/their.

Can you imagine the right-wing stink if we actually tried to introduce a new gender neutral singular pronoun? I also think about trying to explain the concept of repurposed plural pronouns to learners of English as a second or foreign language and imagine they (plural) would also find it confusing.

As a native speaker, I find it hard to keep up with the changes in the language! However, I won't be surprised if the language doesn't continue to evolve to suit the needs of communication. (At least that nasty shorthand used for texting in the days of flip-phones has mostly died away!)
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#465

Post by Fergenaprido »

xianjiro wrote: December 3rd, 2020, 1:55 am I also think about trying to explain the concept of repurposed plural pronouns to learners of English as a second or foreign language and imagine they (plural) would also find it confusing.
I don't know if there would be any trouble. We already have "you" as both a singular and plural pronoun (since we got rid of "ye" and "thou/thee/thy" a few centuries ago). And the singular "they" has been around for almost a millennium, according to some records, so it's not like it's a new concept. Shakespeare even used it.
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#466

Post by xianjiro »

Fergenaprido wrote: December 3rd, 2020, 2:11 am
xianjiro wrote: December 3rd, 2020, 1:55 am I also think about trying to explain the concept of repurposed plural pronouns to learners of English as a second or foreign language and imagine they (plural) would also find it confusing.
I don't know if there would be any trouble. We already have "you" as both a singular and plural pronoun (since we got rid of "ye" and "thou/thee/thy" a few centuries ago). And the singular "they" has been around for almost a millennium, according to some records, so it's not like it's a new concept. Shakespeare even used it.
Agreed, but given that my students were first subjected to the language as a test subject, their focus was always on rules and getting it 'right'. They preferred to remain silent rather than risk getting it wrong (and that was a cultural thing, not just my classes.) So it's a bit harder to unlearn, especially when they aren't exposed to the language in the same we are. I often find my Spanish slang trapped in 1980s Mexico, since that's what I learned to speak.
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#467

Post by kongs_speech »

xianjiro wrote: December 3rd, 2020, 1:55 am (At least that nasty shorthand used for texting in the days of flip-phones has mostly died away!)
lol wtf
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#468

Post by xianjiro »

kongs_speech wrote: December 3rd, 2020, 2:21 am
xianjiro wrote: December 3rd, 2020, 1:55 am (At least that nasty shorthand used for texting in the days of flip-phones has mostly died away!)
lol wtf
ttly!
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#469

Post by prodigalgodson »

tommy_leazaq wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 9:58 am I know of singular they/them/their as in denoting a (indefinite) person genreally. Like, "Someone left their bag here". Didn't know its been used as the substitute for singular pronouns when denoting a transgender person, as well
Well, historically that would've just been incorrect grammar (as I was taught, at least). I remember coming across an essay in a feminist philosophy seminar in college that used her, him, and they interchangeably interchangeably when referring to indefinite hypothetical individuals, and I was initially very confused by the apparently unchecked syntax issues, heh.
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#470

Post by xianjiro »

prodigalgodson wrote: December 3rd, 2020, 5:01 am
tommy_leazaq wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 9:58 am I know of singular they/them/their as in denoting a (indefinite) person genreally. Like, "Someone left their bag here". Didn't know its been used as the substitute for singular pronouns when denoting a transgender person, as well
Well, historically that would've just been incorrect grammar (as I was taught, at least). I remember coming across an essay in a feminist philosophy seminar in college that used her, him, and they interchangeably interchangeably when referring to indefinite hypothetical individuals, and I was initially very confused by the apparently unchecked syntax issues, heh.
yeah, but that's more of stylistic response to perceived masculine bias within the language and academic (among various forms of) writing. Some were doing this in the 80s when I was an undergrad, but most grading papers on grammar would have marked it for the exact reason you allude to. It probably depends on how 'formal' the piece is, but I've seen things mentioned in the forward like, "I've decided to use "she" throughout when referencing a non-specific individual" or "I will alternate between she and he in chapters in an effort to strike gender balance."

All these awkward solutions beg for a new approach and certainly in everyday speech, "they" is and has been in common use for some time as Ferg pointed out. But I can promise I learned not to use it in academic writing "the hard way".

Of course trade names like fireman, mailman, and even chairman suffer the same issues and not everyone feels fireperson, mailperson, or chairperson are good alternatives so now we talk of fire fighters, mail carriers, and committee chairs.

And back in the 90s, woman was going out of fashion to be replaced by things like womyn and wimmin. I guess now womxn is coming into fashion? Try saying that five times real fast, and, btw, when did x become a vowel?

Clearly singular usages of they/them/their is only a further exploration of trends towards inclusion.
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#471

Post by prodigalgodson »

xianjiro wrote: December 3rd, 2020, 7:00 am when did x become a vowel?
lol

And I agree that we're in an, appropriately, transitional phase with regards to language and gender.

Also that particular class had a very post-structuralist bent, where subverting regular use of language is just a form of undermining power structures, bro. The article was legit a good piece of philosophy, but there was a fair amount of loopiness to wade through.
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#472

Post by Onderhond »

xianjiro wrote: December 3rd, 2020, 7:00 am Clearly singular usages of they/them/their is only a further exploration of trends towards inclusion.
Segregation as inclusion. Gotta love it!

I'd rather go the other way and just have one word for everyone.
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#473

Post by xianjiro »

Onderhond wrote: December 3rd, 2020, 8:31 am
xianjiro wrote: December 3rd, 2020, 7:00 am Clearly singular usages of they/them/their is only a further exploration of trends towards inclusion.
Segregation as inclusion. Gotta love it!

I'd rather go the other way and just have one word for everyone.
That may ultimately be the solution - one word for everyone - but clearly the uptake of the suffix -person has suffered for some time now. Old habits die hard they say. While I've never seen it, could it be that -person is rejected because a "son" is a male child? That is a defensible position if we are trying to reach gender-neutrality in language.

And you misunderstand or misrepresent my meaning if you think I believe anything like "segregation is inclusion". However, it's a transitional step on the road to equality. Do you honestly believe we could have gone from the 1950s when gay men were routinely arrested, charged, tried, fired, evicted, and 'treated' against their will to being able to marry and raise a family without the intermediary steps. Yes, for many people the gender structure of a family is no longer an issue: people talk about families, not homosexual families, or same gender families. But in general people are still confused by families where a member is transgender.

And on that note, ideas of non-conforming gender, gender neutrality, and transgender were proceeded by other concepts, demarcations, and even misinformation (a man who dresses like a woman must be a pervert and mentally ill). I am of a divided mind myself on the coverage of Elliot Page declaring his gender identity for one reason: no one should really need to do it - it shouldn't be a 'thing'. Okay, there is the issue of fka Ellen Page and maybe Elliot wasn't ready, or didn't feel those employing actors were quite ready, to acknowledge what Elliot has made public before this week. Again, transitional steps from the way it was to a better tomorrow.

I refuse to see my race as anything but human at this point because I consider race a poorly defined social construct but that doesn't mean that people aren't treated differently every day because of the color of their skin or their perceived race. Will cops stop pulling over Black men and shooting them at a higher rate if society simply made the jump to to my personal mindset? I think not. First we have to recognize the problem: and it is entirely based on the poorly defined social construct of race. If what you suggest could have worked, then it should have been easy to go from the plantation mindset to full equality in a generation or two, but history has shown us something quite different. It was tried and it failed, why should it be different now?

The same largely goes for other minority communities like those based on religion or "menstruation ability" (thanks JK, now we have a new distinction). But again, even though all religions are meant to be equal before the Constitution for over 200 years, that hasn't been the practice and women have only been able to vote for a century and it's truly a recent phenomena that women can be elected to high public office. First we had to recognize the problem! What else could have happened? Only four years ago a strong woman said to me, "Women aren't meant to be president." I believe I was mute in response and let her own words sink in. She understood how that defeated what she actually believed about herself and her daughter.

Segregation, alas, is an early step from complete marginalization or dehumanization towards full equality.
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#474

Post by Onderhond »

xianjiro wrote: December 3rd, 2020, 9:58 am And you misunderstand or misrepresent my meaning if you think I believe anything like "segregation is inclusion".
It wasn't specifically targeted at you, but the "general trend".

I understand how people see it as a means to draw attention to their situation/problems, I just don't appreciate it that much. Next to people who are unaware or against certain evolutions, there's also a very large group who simple doesn't care.
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Post by Prat »

It's an interesting discussion and I learn by reading you. I can't say I'm familiar with transgender activism, especially when it comes to non-binary pronouns. So, I'm sorry if sometimes I can be clumsy in this talk or another, especially since I'm not english.
Thank you all for the discussion and your different points of view. I'll read you ^^

I'm just surprised by the "person" comment you made, Xianjiro, as the etymology has nothing to do with the english word "son". Would it be a problem because "it sounds like son" ?
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Post by Onderhond »

Prat wrote: December 3rd, 2020, 11:32 am I'm just surprised by the "person" comment you made, Xianjiro, as the etymology has nothing to do with the english word "son". Would it be a problem because "it sounds like son" ?
I vote we change song to music to make it more inclusive B)
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Post by Fergenaprido »

Prat wrote: December 3rd, 2020, 11:32 am It's an interesting discussion and I learn by reading you. I can't say I'm familiar with transgender activism, especially when it comes to non-binary pronouns. So, I'm sorry if sometimes I can be clumsy in this talk or another, especially since I'm not english.
Thank you all for the discussion and your different points of view. I'll read you ^^

I'm just surprised by the "person" comment you made, Xianjiro, as the etymology has nothing to do with the english word "son". Would it be a problem because "it sounds like son" ?
While you are correct that "person" is etymologically unrelated to "son", that won't stop people. "Woman" and "women" were written as "womyn" and "wymyn" (or something to that effect, changing the spelling but keeping the pronunciation) in feminist literature (I don't remember which time period, but I remember encountering it at university) because "women/women" contain "man/men", even though eytomologically, "man" just means "human", and the part indicating the male gender, "wer(e)", was deprecated over time. More information on that here and here.

Perception matters as much as reality, sometimes. Though I seriously doubt (m)any people will take issue with "person" for the aforementioned reason.
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Post by Pretentious Hipster »

Funny thing about the whole womyn/womxn thing is that the people that used that ended up being terfs.
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Post by xianjiro »

Prat wrote: December 3rd, 2020, 11:32 am It's an interesting discussion and I learn by reading you. I can't say I'm familiar with transgender activism, especially when it comes to non-binary pronouns. So, I'm sorry if sometimes I can be clumsy in this talk or another, especially since I'm not english.
Thank you all for the discussion and your different points of view. I'll read you ^^

I'm just surprised by the "person" comment you made, Xianjiro, as the etymology has nothing to do with the english word "son". Would it be a problem because "it sounds like son" ?
:)

I'll easily admit that my theorizing about -person was nothing more than pulling an idea out of a body part :lol: Take it with a grain of salt. ;)
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#480

Post by Knaldskalle »

A small contribution to the current pronoun discussion:

ImageImageImageImage

Please don't hurt yourself, talk to someone.
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