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The Political Lounge

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Re: The Political Lounge

#6641

Post by Onderhond » November 13th, 2019, 6:35 pm

Cippenham wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 3:29 pm
Then have an election to decide if she is elected fairly.
They should do that with the Brexit vote!

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#6642

Post by Estonian Bot » November 13th, 2019, 8:02 pm

I often hear people say 'political correctness has gone too far.' So how far has it gone and where should it have stopped?

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#6643

Post by Cippenham » November 13th, 2019, 8:13 pm

We have a General Election to decide where we go with Brexit

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#6644

Post by Onderhond » November 13th, 2019, 10:11 pm

Cippenham wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 8:13 pm
We have a General Election to decide where we go with Brexit
That idea in itself is completely bonkers and stupid. A general election should be about a lot of things, not just Brexit. If you want to know how to continue with Brexit, hold another referendum, so there's no influence from other policies and promises.

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#6645

Post by Cippenham » November 13th, 2019, 10:46 pm

It is Onder but we already had a referendum and voted to leave so just need a Conservative majority to implement it. We do not need or want any more referendums please no. There’s a 60 percent chance of conservative win at this stage.

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#6646

Post by Onderhond » November 14th, 2019, 11:19 am

Cippenham wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 10:46 pm
It is Onder but we already had a referendum and voted to leave
Let me quote this again:
Cippenham wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 3:29 pm
Then have an election to decide if she is elected fairly .
So have another referendum to see if the first one was fair. I mean, since the first one, a lot of new information has surfaced, a lot of lies have been uncovered. If the people of Britain would still like to leave, there should be no problem at all, right?

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#6647

Post by Cippenham » November 14th, 2019, 11:54 am

No

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#6648

Post by St. Gloede » November 14th, 2019, 12:10 pm

He's not even seeing the hypocrisy/double standard ...

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#6649

Post by Onderhond » November 14th, 2019, 12:23 pm

Cippenham wrote:
November 14th, 2019, 11:54 am
No
I'm reading this as "no, there shouldn't be a problem" and declare victory.

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#6650

Post by Pretentious Hipster » November 14th, 2019, 1:23 pm

https://elperiodicocr.com/bolivia-filtr ... o-morales/

Leaked audio of opposition parties and marco rubio and ted cruz planning a coup in bolivia.

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#6651

Post by Cippenham » November 14th, 2019, 7:38 pm

Onder I was at work sorry. We are leaving after Conservatives win General Election. No need for more delays or referendums. We voted to leave and should have done so. The deal keeps us tied to EU in many ways anyway for some time. It’s a typical British compromise and we should accept it.

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#6652

Post by Cippenham » November 14th, 2019, 7:39 pm

Ted maybe President one day

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#6653

Post by Onderhond » November 14th, 2019, 7:49 pm

Cippenham wrote:
November 14th, 2019, 7:38 pm
Onder I was at work sorry. We are leaving after Conservatives win General Election. No need for more delays or referendums. We voted to leave and should have done so. The deal keeps us tied to EU in many ways anyway for some time. It’s a typical British compromise and we should accept it.
Oh no no, no backsies.

We had our discussion and came to a conclusion, no point in starting it again. You agreed a new referendum would be no problem and that's that. It was a once in a generation discussion.

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#6654

Post by GruesomeTwosome » November 14th, 2019, 8:45 pm

Cippenham wrote:
November 14th, 2019, 7:39 pm
Ted maybe President one day
Cruz? Lol, good one, Cipp.
I’m to remember every man I've seen fall into a plate of spaghetti???

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#6655

Post by Cippenham » November 14th, 2019, 11:01 pm

Well who knows in the future. Who would have dreamt that Donald Trump of all people would make it, he cannot be President for real can he. No chance..😀🇺🇸

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#6656

Post by Cippenham » November 15th, 2019, 10:48 am

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.fran ... dly-unrest

There has been a deal to allow new elections in Bolivia but Morales will not be able to stand.

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#6657

Post by Pretentious Hipster » November 15th, 2019, 1:03 pm

Love how no one in the news cares that cruz and rubio were involved in this.

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#6658

Post by Cippenham » November 15th, 2019, 1:18 pm

Involved in Bolivia. If so they deserve respect.

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#6659

Post by Cippenham » November 19th, 2019, 7:26 pm

Rape charges against Assange have been dropped. Apparently they discovered he was at the pizza Express in Woking at the time

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#6660

Post by matthewscott8 » November 19th, 2019, 10:14 pm

Estonian Bot wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 8:02 pm
I often hear people say 'political correctness has gone too far.' So how far has it gone and where should it have stopped?
several friends of mine have children who at school were asked what their gender was and given a choice of 10+ genders. This was very confusing for the children and was not done with the consent of parents. I personally would love to see much more support for gender and sexuality at schools, if I had a choice and would not have been bullied to death I would have dressed as a girl for example, and I still have a lot of damage from never being able to express myself. However this exercise was not the right way to go about it and did not have the support of parents.

Christmas party at work in London was renamed the Winter party to avoid offending Muslims. By contrast in our Dubai office we had an actual Christmas Party, Jesus is a prophet in Islam and there was no sensitivity around this at all.

Strange conflicts were ignored, freedom of religion was championed by the politically correct as well as female rights. Transphobic sex worker phobic feminists were unscrutinised.

People became only their "privileges". I recently watched a guy at the local cinema apologising for being a white heterosexual male and introducing a film by a woman. It was pathetic and disturbing, many people lost the happy years of their lives to these strange unscientific theories. Kenny Everett once said, "Being gay is not an identity, it's a sideline. I'd love to have been cross-dressing with Garbo and having sex with everyone in the 1930s? But it's frankly not that exciting now." What happened to sensible commentary like that?

We were told women and men were the same apart from some basic biological differences, this was a pure constructivist dogma that hardly anyone in society agreed with, however noone was asked. At the same time huge wedges were driven between men and women, with people encouraged to believe that all men were potential sex offenders, but "all women are potential pedophiles" equally true didn't go down so well.

It should be emphasised that dramatic improvements in female, LGBT, and minority rights have happened in my country, the UK, in my lifetime. However since the mid noughties examples of the foolish excesses of political correctness became an every day phenomenon. In the end I started to discern a joylessness in society that reminded me of reading Solzhenitsyn, a witness to an extreme decline in empathy in another time of shrivelled idealism. Bear in mind that if I had written all this even 5 years ago many forumites would have actively tried to make my life uncomfortable. I would say there is now an uneasy rapprochement underway!

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#6661

Post by St. Gloede » November 20th, 2019, 12:04 am

I really don't know the situation in the UK, and you seem to have had some strange experiences and be very passionate about the topic, but whenever you address it, to me, it seems like you are reacting far too harshly and quickly.

The one thing I can very strongly agree with is that a large part of society likes to believe they are the good guys, and treats everyone who transgresses as vile or lesser, all without empathy - and that this question of empathy is absolutely central - but I don't believe these people are anything new, or that they have a unified aim. You will find extremely powerful social forces ensuring cohesion and their own high standing in almost all social groups, usually with different groups and ideas battling it out. Some rules may have been changed, some for the better, some perhaps for worse, but that is also the nature of society.

On the rest of your commentary I am slightly perplexed.


I'm not particularly interested in the gender debate, but if teachers were introducing children to gender identities and asked to partake in imagining their own I don't see an issue. I know it is fun for many to mock this idea, and the amount of gender identities brought up seem strange to anyone not involved (me included), but then a little while ago distinctions like bisexuals and pansexuals weren't even made, and they make sense today. Like you I am very positive to children learning about gender early on, but I don't understand why parents should need to consent on this topic more than any other. Why is this something to be particularly offended or upset about? If the children were confused it may easily have been done badly, but children being confused is hardly a terribly thing, or a reason not to learn.

Isn't it more "politically correct" to try to hide these things away to avoid offending others?

Regarding the man who was apologising for being a white heterosexual male, is that really something to be disturbed by? I wasn't there, but that sounds like one of those niceties/humorisms people use when addressing gender representation. If someone genuinely believes a man shouldn't introduce the work of a woman, ok, that is genuinely worrying, but he was. I could be completely wrong here though, people obviously have absurd beliefs - but this is such a lampooned topic.

As for TERFs they are generally ridiculed and attacked for their extremely mean-spirited bigotry, they are not flying under the radar - they probably had a bit more of a leg to stand in the period when being gay was getting accepted but being trans was still a fun other to abuse. This keep happening, one group gets accepted, another is found, but I wouldn't tie this in with political correctess more than anything else in the zeitgeist.

And regarding for gender differences, I'm not sure who these people who didn't ask were, there have been plenty of different loud voices on gender, the idea that we are all exactly the same is probably one of the nicer if anything, like you said, others were actively painting negative pictures of one gender or another, or pitting genders against each other. The truth here is that there are many different groups, including many calling themselves feminists, and many using other labels, with strong views one gender, all trying to claw their way into the general zeitgeist. There are always tugging wars, especially when group identities with hierachies to climb are on the line.

To me it seems you are contributing many different people and ideas to the same or similar source, looking at what got the most traction and could be considered politically correct thought/part of the overton window, and rebranding it as one specific issue.

-

But then I think we have also had these kinds of discussions many times over the years. I just don't recognize the society you describe, but then, as I said we had lived different places and had different experiences.

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#6662

Post by matthewscott8 » November 20th, 2019, 12:55 am

St. Gloede wrote:
November 20th, 2019, 12:04 am
The one thing I can very strongly agree with is that a large part of society likes to believe they are the good guys, and treats everyone who transgresses as vile or lesser, all without empathy - and that this question of empathy is absolutely central - but I don't believe these people are anything new, or that they have a unified aim. You will find extremely powerful social forces ensuring cohesion and their own high standing in almost all social groups, usually with different groups and ideas battling it out. Some rules may have been changed, some for the better, some perhaps for worse, but that is also the nature of society.
I don't know if this makes sense but as someone with Aspergers I am very very sensitive to this, and I guess, it's everything I stand against, whenever a new power group takes over they randomly seem to think they're different, and at every turn you will find oppressed people eager to become oppressors. You are right that it is a continuous tune and nothing ever really changed in that regard. What I would say though is that the narrowness of the Overton window changes a lot, and it felt like it was getting pretty damned narrow. Maybe if I hate societal dynamics so much and they are that fundamental, I shouldn't be alive, hopefully there's someplace else where people don't fuck with each other. The non autistic people often do seem to be very acceptant of weird social hierarchies.

I do agree with you that the TERF position is far less acceptable now, but I was asking the question as put by Estonian Bot, about when did politically correctness go too far.

I do feel there should be consent from parents over a school syllabus, it seems absurd to have 30 parents unhappy about a lesson but it goes ahead because the teacher knows better. i recognise that it's a profoundly disquieting dynamic, what if the parents were saying we don't want you to teach evolution. It's a big problem to strike a balance between not coercing families, and also advocating for the rights of the child. I find either the pre-eminence of parental view chilling, but equally I find the pre-eminence of the teacher as representative of the state chilling too.

I had a chuckle with a friend recently, "do you remember the noughties, that time when the favourite middle class past time was accusing each other of being racist". It really was like that where I was.

A really dark example in the UK that had a lot of resonance with people was the Rotherham Child Sexual Exploitation Scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham ... on_scandal quite a lot of girls in Rotherham were being raped and prostituted and the belief amongst many was that the police did nothing about it because they were concerned about being seen as a racist, as the perpretrators were British Pakistani men. It had been going on for 30 years when the tide started to turn against political correctness in the early 2010s.

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#6663

Post by Cippenham » November 20th, 2019, 5:14 am

It was much better when we went to school there were only boys and girls. Simple. In fact there are still only boys and girls but the lunatics have taken over the asylum. Apparently in Canada a group of white people are declaring themselves black. Justin Trudeau would no doubt approve. How long before we also import such insanity. By the way i am not diagnosed but am also on verge of having aspbergers too but have worked very hard to deal with that.

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#6664

Post by Cippenham » November 20th, 2019, 5:18 am

Muslims are generally not offended by Christmas at all, patronising others have decided they would be. Maybe they should be offended by such patronising . As I said before some Muslims object to LGBT teachings so that conflicts with liberal left teachings. Why don’t they stop such teachings in strong Muslim area as that offends Muslims a lot more. Because it goes against the liberal left outlook so it’s ok to offend Muslims this way.

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#6665

Post by St. Gloede » November 20th, 2019, 7:55 am

matthewscott8 wrote:
November 20th, 2019, 12:55 am
St. Gloede wrote:
November 20th, 2019, 12:04 am
The one thing I can very strongly agree with is that a large part of society likes to believe they are the good guys, and treats everyone who transgresses as vile or lesser, all without empathy - and that this question of empathy is absolutely central - but I don't believe these people are anything new, or that they have a unified aim. You will find extremely powerful social forces ensuring cohesion and their own high standing in almost all social groups, usually with different groups and ideas battling it out. Some rules may have been changed, some for the better, some perhaps for worse, but that is also the nature of society.
I don't know if this makes sense but as someone with Aspergers I am very very sensitive to this, and I guess, it's everything I stand against, whenever a new power group takes over they randomly seem to think they're different, and at every turn you will find oppressed people eager to become oppressors. You are right that it is a continuous tune and nothing ever really changed in that regard. What I would say though is that the narrowness of the Overton window changes a lot, and it felt like it was getting pretty damned narrow. Maybe if I hate societal dynamics so much and they are that fundamental, I shouldn't be alive, hopefully there's someplace else where people don't fuck with each other. The non autistic people often do seem to be very acceptant of weird social hierarchies.

I do agree with you that the TERF position is far less acceptable now, but I was asking the question as put by Estonian Bot, about when did politically correctness go too far.

I do feel there should be consent from parents over a school syllabus, it seems absurd to have 30 parents unhappy about a lesson but it goes ahead because the teacher knows better. i recognise that it's a profoundly disquieting dynamic, what if the parents were saying we don't want you to teach evolution. It's a big problem to strike a balance between not coercing families, and also advocating for the rights of the child. I find either the pre-eminence of parental view chilling, but equally I find the pre-eminence of the teacher as representative of the state chilling too.

I had a chuckle with a friend recently, "do you remember the noughties, that time when the favourite middle class past time was accusing each other of being racist". It really was like that where I was.

A really dark example in the UK that had a lot of resonance with people was the Rotherham Child Sexual Exploitation Scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham ... on_scandal quite a lot of girls in Rotherham were being raped and prostituted and the belief amongst many was that the police did nothing about it because they were concerned about being seen as a racist, as the perpretrators were British Pakistani men. It had been going on for 30 years when the tide started to turn against political correctness in the early 2010s.
I really hope you don't ever question your reason to be alive just because a solid portion of humanity are inclined to play these games. It does, unfortunately, seem somewhat fundamental, hopefully that can change, or (more realistically) society will get better at spotting it, and calling them out. As for your, and mine, personal sanity, it is best to avoid toxic people like this as far as any of us can - or, if they are not aware of what they are doing, make them aware of it.

That last example is absolutely terrifying, that is a fantastic example of the idea people place behind the words "political correctness" ringing true. While not at all comparable, it reminds me of Spacey's fantastic miscalculation when the original accusation came in, hoping that coming out as guy would shield him from molester stigma. Luckily the days when that could be possible have passed.

On a lighter note, yes it awkwardly amusing when the middle class impose themselves as the moral arbiter and judge of the world.

Re: School example. Yes, you hit the nail on the head there. (This is the flipside of the discussion though, as clearly teaching children about gender identities is not politically correct, hence the reaction - it is not quite inside that overton window yet).

And yes, it is deafeningly and horrifyingly thin at the moment.

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#6666

Post by St. Gloede » November 20th, 2019, 9:25 am

Cippenham wrote:
November 20th, 2019, 5:14 am
It was much better when we went to school there were only boys and girls. Simple. In fact there are still only boys and girls but the lunatics have taken over the asylum. Apparently in Canada a group of white people are declaring themselves black. Justin Trudeau would no doubt approve. How long before we also import such insanity. By the way i am not diagnosed but am also on verge of having aspbergers too but have worked very hard to deal with that.
You mentioned previously that you are very good at understanding difficult text, therefore this stance is very surprising to me.

Gender, is defined separately from biological sex to have a way to describe social roles and expressions. Certain societies have and still do have more than two genders (i.e. more than two distinct social roles/gender identities). Today it is becoming more common to look into divergence within the genders and see different expressions/social roles, and as such you can add additional genders for clarification.

Like I said above, I have very little interest in this particular topic, but:

As someone who should understand text, and by that I hope semantics are included, you do (I hope, again) understand the difference between facts (such as biological sex), and descriptive terminology for social roles/gender roles.

To anyone who understands semantics, it should be pretty clear that social roles can take many forms, and be described/distinguished in many ways.

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#6667

Post by Cippenham » November 20th, 2019, 12:25 pm

St G i am from older generation but have open mind so will consider what you say

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#6668

Post by Cippenham » November 20th, 2019, 12:37 pm

I do not disagree with St G. I am at work but nothing there to disagree with.

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#6669

Post by St. Gloede » November 20th, 2019, 1:07 pm

:thumbsup:

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#6670

Post by matthewscott8 » November 20th, 2019, 2:18 pm

Cippenham wrote:
November 20th, 2019, 5:14 am
It was much better when we went to school there were only boys and girls. Simple. In fact there are still only boys and girls but the lunatics have taken over the asylum. Apparently in Canada a group of white people are declaring themselves black. Justin Trudeau would no doubt approve. How long before we also import such insanity. By the way i am not diagnosed but am also on verge of having aspbergers too but have worked very hard to deal with that.
Cipp, correct me if I'm wrong, but in your day there were people being described as "tomboys", "butch", "nancy boys", things like that right? So back in your day it was the same thing, it's just that now people have created more of a framework to separate out some of the pieces here, i.e. biological sex, gender and sexuality are 3 different pieces. And the idea now is that instead of forcing a tomboy to wear dresses on certain occasions, you let them wear trousers like they want to, and the word has likely changed to "genderqueer".

The point I was more making to SG was that if you have a load of kids who are perfectly happy with sex and gender and haven't even started to think about sexuality yet, you can just let them be.

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#6671

Post by Cippenham » November 20th, 2019, 3:33 pm

Sorry I was at work, hard to keep up,That is correct Matthew but now you have adults trying to foist a particular agenda on children. If you believe in freedom of expression that is wrong. I heard of someone complaining to the parents on a train about the child’s behaviour. Guess who got thrown off the train? That’s right , the one doing the complaining because children apparently should be allowed to express themselves. But if they are a danger to themselves and others, that is a problem. But if you try to force a particular agenda you are not leaving them to decide for themselves.

Maybe they had those words some years ago Mathew but you didn’t really hear much about it.

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#6672

Post by Cippenham » November 20th, 2019, 11:03 pm

What is appalling is that instead of letting children work it out for themselves, they are taught that all climate change is man made, as if like in the Middle Ages they would have been told the earth was the centre of the solar system. It’s a religious teaching, which is appalling as it has no scientific basis anyway. I guess they are also taught capitalism causes poverty and suffering, when the opposite is the case. They are therefore being taught all kinds of of nonsense as well. But they end up in many cases not learning much. No history or geography for a start except the history of protest for example.
Last edited by Cippenham on November 20th, 2019, 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#6673

Post by Cippenham » November 20th, 2019, 11:10 pm

Has anyone read The Sleepwalkers, a description of scientific beliefs in the Middle Ages and earlier especially as regards to how they understood the earth and it’s place. In ancient times they knew the sun was the centre Of the solar system but it was forgotten. Same as we used to know the weather was controlled by the sun and tides and not man, and this has been forgotten.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sleep ... tler_book)

It goes to show many scientists can hold beliefs based on dogma, religion in a way but without justification.

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#6674

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » November 21st, 2019, 2:42 am

Hallam's publisher has pulled his about to be released book from publication:


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#6675

Post by Cippenham » November 21st, 2019, 5:26 am

Hallam is a perfect example, he knows no history and may as well believe the earth is the centre of the solar system, a sleepwalker indeed leading a sleepwalker generation it seems

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#6676

Post by matthewscott8 » November 21st, 2019, 6:14 am

Cippenham wrote:
November 20th, 2019, 11:03 pm
What is appalling is that instead of letting children work it out for themselves, they are taught that all climate change is man made, as if like in the Middle Ages they would have been told the earth was the centre of the solar system. It’s a religious teaching, which is appalling as it has no scientific basis anyway. I guess they are also taught capitalism causes poverty and suffering, when the opposite is the case. They are therefore being taught all kinds of of nonsense as well. But they end up in many cases not learning much. No history or geography for a start except the history of protest for example.
You surely must be aware that not one word you have said there is true. You persist in coming on here and spreading hideous inaccuracies about scientfic evidence. Here is how the structure of opinion on climate change works.Image

Basically for the conservative mindset, the scientifc mindset about climate change is very unconvenient, it implies we have to work together as society to solve a big problem, straight away the conservative mind is blown, it implies that chasing the short term buck will lead to ruination, again conservative mind blown. So instead of focussing on the scientific consensus, people such as yourself focus on identifying contrarian scientists at the fringe and suggesting that they are somehow mainstream or producing work of rigour.

This idea of yours that children are being taught that capitalism causes poverty is a pure delusional fantasy of yours, economics teaching is not like that anywhere near where you and I reside. I can already feel you racing to provide a counterexample and somehow claim it is representative of the normal.

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#6677

Post by Cippenham » November 21st, 2019, 5:22 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-50508399

Netanyahu is charged with corruption but of course is not resigning

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#6678

Post by Cippenham » November 21st, 2019, 7:23 pm

I just disagree with Matthew , but that is ok

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#6679

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » November 25th, 2019, 3:22 am

President Pooh ain't gonna be happy about this result:


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#6680

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » November 29th, 2019, 1:04 am

Major update on the murder of Caruana Galizia:


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