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The Political Lounge

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XxXApathy420XxX
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Re: The Political Lounge

#6241

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » May 17th, 2019, 9:56 pm

Promoting Christianity wat... even ignoring the inhumane colonization that comes with it. One religion is not better than the other. Besides, there's so many denominations that I wonder if different missionaries went to places at the same time and then had to fight over which one is the "correct" one.

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#6242

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » May 17th, 2019, 9:59 pm

The Uganda pastor that became a meme made me look up the LGBT rights there. Homosexuality was actually legal there before Catholicism came in the picture. They keep talking about how Africa is "backwards" now because of their few questionable moral choices. People fail to realize that the missionaries bringing their religion there is what cause those morals.

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#6243

Post by Knaldskalle » May 17th, 2019, 10:28 pm

XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 9:56 pm
One religion is not better than the other.
My religion is obviously better than yours. And since you worship our loving, compassionate and almighty God in a slightly different - and therefore incorrect - way I must now kill you.
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#6244

Post by Kublai Khan » May 18th, 2019, 12:54 am

Cippenham wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 9:31 pm
There is a massive disconnect between elected politicians and the people. The elected currently are much more liberal and globalist. That is why Brexit, Trump, yellow vest movement and growth in nationalist parties has happened. If you read Spengler Decline of the West he correctly predicted this kind of thing. The EU Is deliberately undemocratic. There is a backlash against all this. Nothing wrong with moderate sensible nationalism , protection of borders, promoting Christianity not other religions, and protecting families against minority interests. This is what people want but instead we get mass immigration, promoting minority rights, all that green nonsense when humans do not control climate, and not protecting babies , children, families but deliberately trying to destroy families. There is a backlash against all that.
Quick question. Do you think there is enough resources on the planet for everyone in perpetuity?

What happens when every country adopts an "us first" mentality and there's not enough of something important to go around?

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#6245

Post by Cippenham » May 18th, 2019, 1:45 am

I think there are and will be inventions, for example cars could run on hydrogen but people say electrical power is more efficient. Anyway there will exist fusion energy or unlimited sources. Oil company power prevented these from developing earlier. As Adam Smith shows it is not to the benevolence of the baker or butcher we owe our dinner but to the pursuit of his own interests therefore it is the interests of companies individuals and countries to trade with others. When you have Government control that interest is reduced so you end up like under Soviets of not producing efficiently what people want as only the price mechanism can do that. No amount of bureaucracy can do it.

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#6246

Post by Cippenham » May 18th, 2019, 5:37 am

Knalds no the opposite, we must forgive you . I did not really intend a discussion on religion. Reflecting on the Gulag Archipelago it should be required reading as it is relevant to us too. Don’t we also have unelected people in charge of us who make the same excuses. There is an absence of accountability, and excuses. And dishonesty. The book describes a vast system of prisons transit camps informers secret police. No doubt Corbyn wants to introduce this to Britain. But amid all this horror is comedy and some heroism.

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#6247

Post by Cippenham » May 18th, 2019, 5:38 am

https://archive.org/details/TheGulagArc ... es/page/n2

It’s on archive.org. It’s a very long book.

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#6248

Post by matthewscott8 » May 18th, 2019, 6:46 am

bal3x wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 6:48 pm
matthewscott8 wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 4:36 pm
bal3x wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 2:40 pm


Blatant smear? I don't quite see the statement about their actions not being acceptable, I only see that "Soviets killed more people than the Nazis".. if I missed something I do apologize.
But Cipp said above "Brazil are lucky to have such a President". I realize some folks confuse Nazism with fascism, but still..
Someone needs to say something pro-Nazi before you imply that they might be Nazi sympathisers. I guess you could read his initial comment either way, but it sounded to me like he disliked both the swastika and the hammer and sickle. Bolsonaro is an asshole but he's no Hitler.
I didn't actually imply anything, I only said "I hope Cipp is not secretly admiring the Nazis" which is not saying he actually does, right? But I'm glad we have sorted that out then and generally are in agreement about these things :) And just to reiterate - both Stalinism and Hitlerism were horrible in their own way, but I think we can certainly agree that overall the Nazis were much more evil than the Soviets due to the very nature of their ideology which was targeting specific ethnic/social groups which was not the case with the Soviets whereby everyone suffered... on the other hand it took a monster to defeat a monster... that's the sad truth and the horrible sacrifice that was made. I must also say Stalin is being viewed more and more favorably in Russia.. the problem here is how the question is being phrased (i.e. whether you ask if he was a genius leader or you approve of his methods.. without doubt there were results, but at what cost...
There were dedicated anti-semitic purges under Stalin, if your point is that anti-semitism was not enshrined in the foundational texts of the revolution, then fine, but not sure that really matters. Actions speak louder than words as they say. The major point though is that if you decide to shape the world by murder, essentially the main principle of both Soviet Communism and Nazism, as revolutionaries, all that happens is you become monsters ruling over brutalised and desentimentalised populations. The road to heaven is not littered with corpses. Cipp seems relatively unruffled by your suggestion, and I think being offended on others behalves when they themselves are not is a bad idea.

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#6249

Post by Cippenham » May 18th, 2019, 9:12 am

Nazism is the opposite of my views. I would have course supported Churchill. I quite like the YouTuber Steve Turley. Modern style moderate nationalism is sensible as it is liberal in the old fashioned sense, protections of your borders but accepting highly skilled individuals from other countries, not mass immigration, respect of your culture, respect for families. Maybe referendums on issues like hunting, gun control, abortion, the death penalty. This is a fairer way. Moderate sensible policies, trade deals with other countries. Democracy is most important, we don’t have it in the EU.

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#6250

Post by Cippenham » May 18th, 2019, 9:20 am

Democracy is most important, I think out first past the post system is not really democratic and fit for purpose as it no longer avoids minority government so you may as well have PR.

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#6251

Post by bal3x » May 18th, 2019, 12:17 pm

matthewscott8 wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 6:46 am
bal3x wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 6:48 pm
matthewscott8 wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 4:36 pm
Someone needs to say something pro-Nazi before you imply that they might be Nazi sympathisers. I guess you could read his initial comment either way, but it sounded to me like he disliked both the swastika and the hammer and sickle. Bolsonaro is an asshole but he's no Hitler.
I didn't actually imply anything, I only said "I hope Cipp is not secretly admiring the Nazis" which is not saying he actually does, right? But I'm glad we have sorted that out then and generally are in agreement about these things :) And just to reiterate - both Stalinism and Hitlerism were horrible in their own way, but I think we can certainly agree that overall the Nazis were much more evil than the Soviets due to the very nature of their ideology which was targeting specific ethnic/social groups which was not the case with the Soviets whereby everyone suffered... on the other hand it took a monster to defeat a monster... that's the sad truth and the horrible sacrifice that was made. I must also say Stalin is being viewed more and more favorably in Russia.. the problem here is how the question is being phrased (i.e. whether you ask if he was a genius leader or you approve of his methods.. without doubt there were results, but at what cost...
There were dedicated anti-semitic purges under Stalin, if your point is that anti-semitism was not enshrined in the foundational texts of the revolution, then fine, but not sure that really matters. Actions speak louder than words as they say. The major point though is that if you decide to shape the world by murder, essentially the main principle of both Soviet Communism and Nazism, as revolutionaries, all that happens is you become monsters ruling over brutalised and desentimentalised populations. The road to heaven is not littered with corpses. Cipp seems relatively unruffled by your suggestion, and I think being offended on others behalves when they themselves are not is a bad idea.
Fair enough, I don't disagree with any of that, I'd just say that it all depends on how those ideologies are being interpreted and acted upon, i.e. communism as such supposedly has good intentions, i.e. equality and social security for all etc., but when ideology takes over and totalitarian repressive system is introduced that's when things get ugly. Nazism seems quite different to me with all that master race crap, targeting not just Jews, Gypsies or homosexuals, but all "weak" people etc, all of that is very sick. We also need to make a clear distinction as to communism under Lenin, Stalin or Khrushchev - those were very different indeed.

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#6252

Post by Cippenham » May 18th, 2019, 2:17 pm

Good news down under those awful Labor people did not win after all😁

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#6253

Post by Cippenham » May 18th, 2019, 2:33 pm

Bal to be honest they are fine distinctions as Kulakowski makes clear. Its a completely terrible philosophy however you shape it.

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#6254

Post by Dolwphin » May 18th, 2019, 2:50 pm

Power > Ideas

History > "Logic"
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#6255

Post by Kublai Khan » May 18th, 2019, 4:33 pm

Cippenham wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 1:45 am
I think there are and will be inventions, for example cars could run on hydrogen but people say electrical power is more efficient. Anyway there will exist fusion energy or unlimited sources. Oil company power prevented these from developing earlier. As Adam Smith shows it is not to the benevolence of the baker or butcher we owe our dinner but to the pursuit of his own interests therefore it is the interests of companies individuals and countries to trade with others. When you have Government control that interest is reduced so you end up like under Soviets of not producing efficiently what people want as only the price mechanism can do that. No amount of bureaucracy can do it.
Okay, but you're seeing some of the problem there. Oil companies totally killed off innovation for decades so that they could maximize profits for longer. If scarcity causes oil to rise to $200 a barrell, they still make tons of money while everyone else starts fighting.

The same problem exists with the rising price of insulin. Should we cheer companies forcing people to go into heavy debt for the sake of being alive because it is in the pursuit of those companies own interests to do so?

And to counter your "government control decreases innovation" argument, I present this list of NASA spinoff technology. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_spinoff_technologies)

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#6256

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » May 18th, 2019, 4:46 pm

Aussie round-up

Labor leader Bill Shorten resigns:



Former PM Tony Abbott loses seat:



Victory for Coalition beats the polls and is "A major upset":


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#6257

Post by matthewscott8 » May 18th, 2019, 5:27 pm

bal3x wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 12:17 pm
matthewscott8 wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 6:46 am
bal3x wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 6:48 pm


I didn't actually imply anything, I only said "I hope Cipp is not secretly admiring the Nazis" which is not saying he actually does, right? But I'm glad we have sorted that out then and generally are in agreement about these things :) And just to reiterate - both Stalinism and Hitlerism were horrible in their own way, but I think we can certainly agree that overall the Nazis were much more evil than the Soviets due to the very nature of their ideology which was targeting specific ethnic/social groups which was not the case with the Soviets whereby everyone suffered... on the other hand it took a monster to defeat a monster... that's the sad truth and the horrible sacrifice that was made. I must also say Stalin is being viewed more and more favorably in Russia.. the problem here is how the question is being phrased (i.e. whether you ask if he was a genius leader or you approve of his methods.. without doubt there were results, but at what cost...
There were dedicated anti-semitic purges under Stalin, if your point is that anti-semitism was not enshrined in the foundational texts of the revolution, then fine, but not sure that really matters. Actions speak louder than words as they say. The major point though is that if you decide to shape the world by murder, essentially the main principle of both Soviet Communism and Nazism, as revolutionaries, all that happens is you become monsters ruling over brutalised and desentimentalised populations. The road to heaven is not littered with corpses. Cipp seems relatively unruffled by your suggestion, and I think being offended on others behalves when they themselves are not is a bad idea.
Fair enough, I don't disagree with any of that, I'd just say that it all depends on how those ideologies are being interpreted and acted upon, i.e. communism as such supposedly has good intentions, i.e. equality and social security for all etc., but when ideology takes over and totalitarian repressive system is introduced that's when things get ugly. Nazism seems quite different to me with all that master race crap, targeting not just Jews, Gypsies or homosexuals, but all "weak" people etc, all of that is very sick. We also need to make a clear distinction as to communism under Lenin, Stalin or Khrushchev - those were very different indeed.
Stalin of course recriminalised homosexuality and brought in a sentence of 5 years hard labour. Gypsies were forced to abandon their ways of life and settle. Also you may want to Google the Holodomor, this was when the communists decided to genocide the Ukrainians. Lenin and Trotsky started the bloodshed and then the revolution, as they do, ate its children. Stalin was inevitable.

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#6258

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » May 19th, 2019, 2:36 am

Been looking for this classic for a while


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#6259

Post by Cippenham » May 19th, 2019, 4:58 am

Great news in Australia. Once again polls get it wrong, somehow in some countries they are not able to correctly predict votes for right of centre parties.


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#6261

Post by Dolwphin » May 23rd, 2019, 9:42 am

Everybody wants to live in the utopia that is The Democratic People's Republic of Korea, everybody loves the esteemed supreme leader Kim Jong-un!
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#6262

Post by Cippenham » May 23rd, 2019, 5:39 pm

Good news in India, the BJP wins again. Modi is the guy to make Indians feel secure.

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#6263

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » May 23rd, 2019, 5:44 pm

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2019/05/21/ ... ives-poll/

Looks like Ontario is realizing what a horrible mistake voting for the Conservatives was. If only those idiots would realize that a 3rd party is a viable option.

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#6264

Post by xianjiro » May 23rd, 2019, 6:37 pm

XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
May 23rd, 2019, 5:44 pm
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2019/05/21/ ... ives-poll/

Looks like Ontario is realizing what a horrible mistake voting for the Conservatives was. If only those idiots would realize that a 3rd party is a viable option.
Take hope: it's looking more and more like May's Tories will soon be a third party.

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#6265

Post by Kublai Khan » May 24th, 2019, 1:11 am

Speaking of Canada, Montreal has begun taxing churches.

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/no-more-rel ... -1.3415164

Not specifically the churches, but rather any non-worship place that belongs to a church is being taxed.

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#6266

Post by Cippenham » May 24th, 2019, 5:08 am

As long as Canada removes that awful Trudeau later this year, the country will do fine I am sure.

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#6267

Post by xianjiro » May 24th, 2019, 5:54 pm

Given the results from India and anticipating the MEP results on Sunday, it seems pretty clear that around the globe there is a rise in nationalism regardless if it's styled economic, racial, or religious. So, I'd like to pose three questions:

1) Why do you think nationalism is in the ascendancy?

2) is nationalism a positive or negative or can it be benign?

3) What the way forward if every (especially the larger) nation adopts an 'us first' attitude?

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#6268

Post by Cippenham » May 24th, 2019, 8:21 pm

1 because the other parties do not listen to their own people but have policies in the interests of global corporations or big government, and policies too much on the side of minority groups, supposedly in the name of equality, these policies make people poorer, feel as if their security and identity both economic and cultural are under attack
2 positive if you have peaceful nationalism, with openness to fair trade, not interfering with other countries, but paying attention to the interests of your own people, Modi is a good example and has so far managed to avoid big war despite some potential conflict with Pakistan
3 to have more trade agreements, a confederation of nation states, but all with the respect and support of their people but with no desire whatsoever for military actions that do not affect their own country directly, not getting involved in unnecessary wars, let Venezuela for example sort their own problems , it’s nothing to do with us

I cannot get over how alienated and disgusted I feel to my own rotten globalist socialist government mascarading as conservative, they must hate us ordinary people and think us idiots. It’s as if they have a death wish and desire for Nigel Farage to take over one day

Follow or have a look at videos by Dr Steve Turley on YouTube who celebrates the success of the new nationalist movements around the world

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#6269

Post by Knaldskalle » May 24th, 2019, 9:21 pm

xianjiro wrote:
May 24th, 2019, 5:54 pm
1) Why do you think nationalism is in the ascendancy?
My usual answer to this is that the centrist Powers-that-be fucked up and people want them out. I suspect it's more or less random whether people go left or right in response to this.
xianjiro wrote:
May 24th, 2019, 5:54 pm
2) is nationalism a positive or negative or can it be benign?
Given that I even have issues with patriotism (nationalism's little brother), my answer would be a net negative. I think the only instances I can understand nationalism is in the case of Poland and select other "non-existing" countries (Kurdistan, for instance) where I can at least understand why people would have a strong affinity to their "nation."
xianjiro wrote:
May 24th, 2019, 5:54 pm
3) What the way forward if every (especially the larger) nation adopts an 'us first' attitude?
You mean other than complete nuclear annihilation? I'm not sure. I guess it depends on just how far these regimes go in dismantling democratic institutions to strengthen their grip on power.
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#6270

Post by St. Gloede » May 25th, 2019, 2:28 pm

xianjiro wrote:
May 24th, 2019, 5:54 pm
Given the results from India and anticipating the MEP results on Sunday, it seems pretty clear that around the globe there is a rise in nationalism regardless if it's styled economic, racial, or religious. So, I'd like to pose three questions:

1) Why do you think nationalism is in the ascendancy?
Nationalism plays on and cultivates a dangerous idea of cultural hegemony and a group identity which it is "easy" to shape and claim is under attack. Few guman emotions are stronger than that of belonging to a group, we are social creatures, and when you create an in-group - built around a highly theoretical and symbolic idea that most people have some connection to, and feel strongly about - you can introduce villains and threats that has to be overcome.

However, this was always the case - what is different now?

The answer is complex, but the key reasons are:

1.1. The political spectrum have shifted far right to the point that the people have little to no connection to a ruling class which merely cares about their own goals and preserving the status quo. Most major parties are pushing policies that support global capital as opposed to the interests of the people that elected them.

1.2. As a result of this (slow and gradual) shift to the economic right we are in situation where the rich get richer, and the rest of the population become left behind, or worse, leading to extreme economic insecurity.

1.3. Whenever the status quo fails people look to different solutions, usually this means that both the outer left and the outer right grows. However, with the majority of the old left wing and center left parties having moced to the right, many even embracing liberalism (right wing economics), they offer no counter point or solutions except slightly higher taxes, slightly more redistribution of wealth and a nice touch of condescension. In other words - the solution to the problem is not reaching the people - this means the critique of liberalism is primarily coming from the nationalists.

2. As nationalists usually still support the failed ideology of liberalism to one extent or another (they support capitalism) and typically want a world of hierachies, rich and poor, etc. they cannot blame capital or the rich themselves - they need to shift blame - "Elites" becomes the status quo politicians, not the far more powerful capitalists who essentially own the political machine - and the additional enemy need to be a weak and scary other - which the elites are conspiring with. The refugee chrisises that have shook Europe and the world ever since they escalated the situation in the middle east have become a wonderful fodder for them. The victims running away can be dehumanied, portrayed as nothing more than animals and "invaders".

They then only need to play off the actual issues of different cultures existing next to each other - especially when many of the smaller cultures are significantly poorer than the dominant culture, which almost always leads to a higher degree of crime and violent behavior. This or shall we say these "others" become the "dangerous others" - and only the nationalists are the saviors by keeping the savages at bay - ignoring the fact that you can have strict immigration policies without purposefully promoting fear and hatred - ensuring that the chances of the new citizens becoming a part of the community is far less likely.

High immigration is however not the reason in itself - some of the most extreme nationalist movements are taking place in countries with minimal immigration - such as Poland. The threat of "others" is enough.

3. The fact that the culture is changing allows them to tap into the fear or more traditional communities and older voters. That the people as a whole has evolved is not scary enough, they need to tie the evil elites in with the dangerous others - and as both are "in place", and culture is drastically different than it once was - they have another great opportunity.

Nationalists typically hate the values of their nation, but pretend to defend them - what they really defend is usually the values the nation had 50-60 years prior - but they can't say this out loud - they need as many voters they can get - and while there is an overlap - those who hate or are harmed by the status quo,, those who hate or fear immigrants and those who want to oppress society into a hegemony that never even existed, typically based on religious tenants and patriarchy - are incredibly different groups.

Summary:
- Bad economic situation
- Political leaders defending the status quo
- Immigration/Threat of Immigration from other cultures
- Changing culture

2) is nationalism a positive or negative or can it be benign?
There are attributes that some Nationalist movements have tried to lay claim to that are genuinly wonderful, namely the right of self-determination and a sense of comraderie among neighbours (countrymen) - but while there are forms of nationalism that promotes such, and other positive ideas, the net benefit is negative.

This is because nationalism simply cannot center around the people themselves, it centers around the heavily symbolic idea of the nation state, which means that you need to put this abstract idea above real human beings. This is always dangerous, but to varying degrees.

It can be largely benign - but it is not the more benign vision we are seeing spead, it is National Conservatism/(Light) Fascism - with all it's fearmongering, racism, sexism, and deceptive tactics.

All they are doing is scaring people to give up their own self-interests and place themselves in an even worse situation.

Fascism/National Conservatism is only a defense mechanism for the status quo/liberalism. They do not wish to change the system itself, they merely wish to re-direct the people's anger.

This is thoroughly horrifying, and there is no silver lining what so ever.

3) What the way forward if every (especially the larger) nation adopts an 'us first' attitude?

"Us first" is not the big issue, a community will typically place their own interests first. The scary thing about nationalism is that it is not "Us first" but "The Nation First", and the threat is first and foremost internally not externally - as those who do not comform will be in danger - and the individual's ability to determine their own lives will be weakened. Hell, we have already seen the abortion bans in the US - tragic and horrifying.

"Us first/Nation first" will certainly break down international solidarity and lead to a colder world - and taken to a more extreme extent may move us closer to a pre-WW1/pre-WW2 situation.

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#6271

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » May 25th, 2019, 3:39 pm

Cipp, please stop vandalizing the bus shelters. You're wasting tax dollars.


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#6272

Post by Cippenham » May 25th, 2019, 6:31 pm

What ?

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#6273

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » May 25th, 2019, 6:33 pm

Lol this is the closest bus shelter to my house and I saw that. Making a joke that you did it cause you called him awful like 2 days ago :p

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#6274

Post by HVM » May 25th, 2019, 8:04 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
May 25th, 2019, 2:28 pm
xianjiro wrote:
May 24th, 2019, 5:54 pm

High immigration is however not the reason in itself - some of the most extreme nationalist movements are taking place in countries with minimal immigration - such as Poland. The threat of "others" is enough.

Przepraszam? :think:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... -president

"Melnytska, then 19, enrolled in a university in the eastern city of Lublin. She worked long nights in a kebab shop, where she was paid about £1 an hour. Five years later she is still here and one of an estimated 2 million Ukrainians working and living in Poland."

https://www.ft.com/content/f6a2e838-835 ... 565ec55929

"Businesses reckon there are now 1m to 2m Ukrainians working in Poland. Last year Poland issued 1.7m special short-term work registrations to Ukrainians — an almost eightfold increase on 2013."

https://jam-news.net/poland-a-work-haven-for-georgians/

"Unemployment in Georgia is at 12.7 per cent, according to the official data of 2018.

The road to Russia is practically closed due to the conflict and the difficulty Georgians have in obtaining visas.

In recent years, Greece, Turkey, Italy and Germany were the main migration destinations for workers from Georgia.

But Poland is distinguished by the fact that work in this country is legal.

For citizens of several post-Soviet countries – Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, Moldova, Georgia and Armenia – a work permit is issued in a simplified manner. For the citizens of Georgia, this is practically the only chance to get a legal job abroad."

"Eurostat shows Poland took in the most migrants in Europe from non-EU countries in 2017: 683,000."

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PeacefulAnarchy
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#6275

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » May 25th, 2019, 9:01 pm

HVM wrote:
May 25th, 2019, 8:04 pm
St. Gloede wrote:
May 25th, 2019, 2:28 pm
xianjiro wrote:
May 24th, 2019, 5:54 pm

High immigration is however not the reason in itself - some of the most extreme nationalist movements are taking place in countries with minimal immigration - such as Poland. The threat of "others" is enough.

Przepraszam? :think:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... -president

"Melnytska, then 19, enrolled in a university in the eastern city of Lublin. She worked long nights in a kebab shop, where she was paid about £1 an hour. Five years later she is still here and one of an estimated 2 million Ukrainians working and living in Poland."

"Eurostat shows Poland took in the most migrants in Europe from non-EU countries in 2017: 683,000."
Ukraine is not in the EU. The vast majority of Poland's non-EU immigrants are Ukrainian.
Also:
While Poland’s rightwing populist government has rejected resettlement quotas for refugees from Syria and other conflict zones, the country has quietly accepted what may amount to the largest migration into a European country in recent years. There are about 400,000 Ukrainians on proper contracts but many more who work in the parallel economy or are short-term, seasonal labourers.

Their presence helps replace the labour shortage created by the Poles who have left for Britain, Germany and other EU countries since Poland joined the bloc.
So it's clearly not about immigration itself, Poles are fine with immigration. They just don't want "those" immigrants.

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#6276

Post by Dolwphin » May 25th, 2019, 9:44 pm

Ukrainians are not MENA immigrants...
Top 200 | https://rateyourmusic.com/~Dolwphin

Member of the Experimental Mafia.

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St. Gloede
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#6277

Post by St. Gloede » May 25th, 2019, 9:47 pm

HVM wrote:
May 25th, 2019, 8:04 pm
St. Gloede wrote:
May 25th, 2019, 2:28 pm
xianjiro wrote:
May 24th, 2019, 5:54 pm

High immigration is however not the reason in itself - some of the most extreme nationalist movements are taking place in countries with minimal immigration - such as Poland. The threat of "others" is enough.

Przepraszam? :think:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... -president

"Melnytska, then 19, enrolled in a university in the eastern city of Lublin. She worked long nights in a kebab shop, where she was paid about £1 an hour. Five years later she is still here and one of an estimated 2 million Ukrainians working and living in Poland."

https://www.ft.com/content/f6a2e838-835 ... 565ec55929

"Businesses reckon there are now 1m to 2m Ukrainians working in Poland. Last year Poland issued 1.7m special short-term work registrations to Ukrainians — an almost eightfold increase on 2013."

https://jam-news.net/poland-a-work-haven-for-georgians/

"Unemployment in Georgia is at 12.7 per cent, according to the official data of 2018.

The road to Russia is practically closed due to the conflict and the difficulty Georgians have in obtaining visas.

In recent years, Greece, Turkey, Italy and Germany were the main migration destinations for workers from Georgia.

But Poland is distinguished by the fact that work in this country is legal.

For citizens of several post-Soviet countries – Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, Moldova, Georgia and Armenia – a work permit is issued in a simplified manner. For the citizens of Georgia, this is practically the only chance to get a legal job abroad."

"Eurostat shows Poland took in the most migrants in Europe from non-EU countries in 2017: 683,000."
Walked right into that one by simply saying "immigrants", sloppy, my bad.

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#6278

Post by Rainy Red Carpet » May 25th, 2019, 11:51 pm

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">&quot;But you know what? Drop the attitude!&quot; - <a href="https://twitter.com/JacquiLambie?ref_sr ... iLambie</a> has a message for <a href="https://twitter.com/ScottMorrisonMP?ref ... risonMP</a> tonight <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ausvotes?sr ... usvotes</a>: <a href="https://t.co/6t88J3e48w">pic.twitter.co ... </p>&mdash; ABC Hobart (@abchobart) <a href=" 18, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Money talks and bullshit walks.

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xianjiro
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#6279

Post by xianjiro » May 26th, 2019, 2:02 am

SpoilerShow
PeacefulAnarchy wrote:
May 25th, 2019, 9:01 pm
HVM wrote:
May 25th, 2019, 8:04 pm
St. Gloede wrote:
May 25th, 2019, 2:28 pm

Przepraszam? :think:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... -president

"Melnytska, then 19, enrolled in a university in the eastern city of Lublin. She worked long nights in a kebab shop, where she was paid about £1 an hour. Five years later she is still here and one of an estimated 2 million Ukrainians working and living in Poland."

"Eurostat shows Poland took in the most migrants in Europe from non-EU countries in 2017: 683,000."
Ukraine is not in the EU. The vast majority of Poland's non-EU immigrants are Ukrainian.
Also:
While Poland’s rightwing populist government has rejected resettlement quotas for refugees from Syria and other conflict zones, the country has quietly accepted what may amount to the largest migration into a European country in recent years. There are about 400,000 Ukrainians on proper contracts but many more who work in the parallel economy or are short-term, seasonal labourers.

Their presence helps replace the labour shortage created by the Poles who have left for Britain, Germany and other EU countries since Poland joined the bloc.
So it's clearly not about immigration itself, Poles are fine with immigration. They just don't want "those" immigrants.
[/quote]

This seems to be a common component I've been seeing - it's not ALL immigrants that are bad, just certain groups of immigrants, though clearly this changes depending on the country.

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
sol can find me here

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#6280

Post by Rainy Red Carpet » May 26th, 2019, 7:30 am

Rebranding Scott Morrison


Money talks and bullshit walks.

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