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The Political Lounge

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Re: The Political Lounge

#6201

Post by Cippenham » May 11th, 2019, 4:45 am

Andrew Neil is a great broadcaster and journalist, a number of people have left his interviews as they cannot cope with his relentless logic and common sense.

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#6202

Post by Cippenham » May 11th, 2019, 4:53 am

Cippenham wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 4:45 am
Andrew Neil is a great broadcaster and journalist, a number of people have left his interviews as they cannot cope with his relentless logic and common sense. The Prime Minister May struggled with him and did badly at the last election

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/vi ... view-video


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#6204

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » May 11th, 2019, 1:38 pm

Gigantic yet important imageShow
Image

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#6205

Post by Dolwphin » May 11th, 2019, 3:25 pm

XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 1:38 pm
Gigantic yet important imageShow
Image
Chart-overdose. B)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Nat ... ._Bellotti

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckley_v._Valeo
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#6206

Post by morrison-dylan-fan » May 11th, 2019, 5:35 pm

A brawl kicks off in Hong Kong parliament over possible new extradition law:


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#6207

Post by matthewscott8 » May 13th, 2019, 3:39 pm

flaiky wrote:
May 10th, 2019, 4:47 pm
matthewscott8 wrote:
May 10th, 2019, 2:02 pm
On 2nd thought I think probably they are looking at MEPs.
No I don't think that's it, firstly because the red block is for "in government", which you wouldn't say about MEPs, and secondly because about 30% of UK MEPs are current or former UKIP, so the colour would be different.

It must be either the DUP or a silly SNP mix up.
haha well I staunch Europhile like me would refer to them as in government, but I take your point. It's a poorly sourced chart.


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#6209

Post by max-scl » May 15th, 2019, 12:01 am

Winner of the propaganda race with the help of TV and Hollywood.

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#6210

Post by bal3x » May 15th, 2019, 3:06 pm

XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 11:13 pm
Image
:lol: :lol:

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#6211

Post by Kublai Khan » May 16th, 2019, 11:58 am

https://www.newsweek.com/angela-merkel- ... st-1426742

Gemany and the EU is now viewing the US as a rival and enemy instead of an ally. What does the US possibly gain from Trump creating this situation?


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#6213

Post by Cippenham » May 16th, 2019, 8:28 pm

Brazil are lucky to have such a President , it is good news for the people there. We should certainly do the same. Hopefully Canada and the UK will one day have sensible policies. I have a dream one day they will have government that can represent the people and not fund these awful indoctrination institutions.

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#6214

Post by matthewscott8 » May 16th, 2019, 10:45 pm

I hope no-one thinks that murdering a dog is a contribution to winning stuff. Also continued bemusement at the acceptability of posting the hammer and sickle on message boards.

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#6215

Post by Cippenham » May 17th, 2019, 4:09 am

The hammer and sickle is no more acceptable to me than a swastika, and after all the Soviets killed more people than the Nazis. But of course they are judged by different rules although two sides of the same coin. There are some interesting articles about this.

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#6216

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » May 17th, 2019, 1:14 pm

I believe that the difference between them is that fascism is an evil ideology by theory. It's one that's the most pro-military, anti-art, anti-decadence, anti-disability, pro-eugenic, racist (gotta keep their type of people going), nationalistic, and I believe the worst, follows the hierarchy.

Yes, the USSR was shitty, but there are a few things. I believe that Lenin and Trotsky had good intentions, and were actually making the country great. Stalin reversed most of their propositions. For example, Lenin made abortion and homosexuality legal. Stalin quickly changed that when he got into power.

The main reason why I post USSR things is that there is still a lot of propaganda about them, and that they actually succeeded in the economical aspects. The most obvious example is that they clearly won the space race. Saying otherwise means you're either an idiot, or you love American propaganda too much.

Here's some more examples about USSR success:

Image
https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom ... 0009-5.pdf

The other thing is, how many people have died under capitalism? The people under slavery and colonization for example (Churchill was responsible for the famine in india during WWII, killing 4 million people).

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#6217

Post by bal3x » May 17th, 2019, 1:40 pm

Kublai Khan wrote:
May 16th, 2019, 11:58 am
https://www.newsweek.com/angela-merkel- ... st-1426742

Gemany and the EU is now viewing the US as a rival and enemy instead of an ally. What does the US possibly gain from Trump creating this situation?
This is the "success" of Trump policies :) Soon enough the US will be in isolation in their hegemony... and once China trumps them things will get really interesting...

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#6218

Post by bal3x » May 17th, 2019, 1:51 pm

@Art, there's no point arguing with Cipp, he has no clue what he's talking about, especially as far as USSR and Russia are concerned, his views are entirely based on propaganda sources. I will not be getting into this discussion, but it's rather depressing to read such rubbish and disinformation. At least I hope Cipp is not secretly admiring the Nazis...

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#6219

Post by matthewscott8 » May 17th, 2019, 2:16 pm

XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 1:14 pm
I believe that the difference between them is that fascism is an evil ideology by theory. It's one that's the most pro-military, anti-art, anti-decadence, anti-disability, pro-eugenic, racist (gotta keep their type of people going), nationalistic, and I believe the worst, follows the hierarchy.

Yes, the USSR was shitty, but there are a few things. I believe that Lenin and Trotsky had good intentions, and were actually making the country great. Stalin reversed most of their propositions. For example, Lenin made abortion and homosexuality legal. Stalin quickly changed that when he got into power.

The main reason why I post USSR things is that there is still a lot of propaganda about them, and that they actually succeeded in the economical aspects. The most obvious example is that they clearly won the space race. Saying otherwise means you're either an idiot, or you love American propaganda too much.

Here's some more examples about USSR success:

Image
https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom ... 0009-5.pdf

The other thing is, how many people have died under capitalism? The people under slavery and colonization for example (Churchill was responsible for the famine in india during WWII, killing 4 million people).
I'm definitely not trying to defend capitalism, and I don't really care about the space race, it was vainglorious, and had nothing to do with economics. That whole list of things you came up with, were literally all features of Soviet Russia (happy to provide examples of all if you're not buying it). They are not detachable from the ultimate symbol of the regime. And we're still in double standard territory. If I said something of the order of, "Say what you like about Nazism, but the autobahns sure are great", it wouldn't stand here. That world war that is mentioned in the infographic, the tactic for Soviet generals to clear minefields was to literally march their punishment battalions over them. How did you get into a punishment battalion - all you had to do was say something pessimistic in earshot of a political officer, or be captured by the enemy and recaptured during an advance, surrender was literally a death sentence, or have your gulag sentence transmuted into punishment battalion service. Practically none of them survived. Then with all the purges many of the heroes of the war were sent to gulags, often after secret denouncements and no trial.

You can go with Lenin & Trotky blameless, then the nasty Stalin and Beria come along, but I don't think that washes. Back before any of it happened Bakunin pointed out to Marx that his dictatorship of the proletariat would be a disaster; arguing for a violent revolution led by professional zealots, what could go wrong? The disasters of Soviet Russia were foreseen as early as 1871 by Dostoevesky, in his novel Demons. Only looking at practice it was clear from the uber-violent repression of the Kronstadt rebellion, that this was a wrongun of a political trajectory. Trotsky and Lenin were directly responsible for this by the way. Accounts of that were circulating in the west in the early 1920s. Almost a hundred years later I'm having to point it out!!!!! Totalitarianism just doesn't work. The fact that the Soviets were an improvement on feudalism and serfdom, isn't that amazing. Nor is putting 12 doormen on each public building to get full employment much of a stroke of genius.

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#6220

Post by matthewscott8 » May 17th, 2019, 2:22 pm

bal3x wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 1:51 pm
@Art, there's no point arguing with Cipp, he has no clue what he's talking about, especially as far as USSR and Russia are concerned, his views are entirely based on propaganda sources. I will not be getting into this discussion, but it's rather depressing to read such rubbish and disinformation. At least I hope Cipp is not secretly admiring the Nazis...
The irony here is just incredible, you are literally talking to someone who posted propaganda and saying to them, don't bother talking to Cipp his views are entirely based on propaganda sources. This infographic about the Soviet Union is absolutely textbook propaganda, a completely biased selection of facts designed to lead one to a false impression. Also your last point about whether Cipp is secretly admiring Nazis is a blatant smear has he's made it pretty clear he didn't find their actions acceptable.

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#6221

Post by bal3x » May 17th, 2019, 2:25 pm

matthewscott8 wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 2:22 pm
bal3x wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 1:51 pm
@Art, there's no point arguing with Cipp, he has no clue what he's talking about, especially as far as USSR and Russia are concerned, his views are entirely based on propaganda sources. I will not be getting into this discussion, but it's rather depressing to read such rubbish and disinformation. At least I hope Cipp is not secretly admiring the Nazis...
The irony here is just incredible, you are literally talking to someone who posted propaganda and saying to them, don't bother talking to Cipp his views are entirely based on propaganda sources. This infographic about the Soviet Union is absolutely textbook propaganda, a completely biased selection of facts designed to lead one to a false impression.
Good points, at least you go into detail and know the subject, I don't have to agree with what Art posted above (even though some of that is actually correct), but I was reacting more to the Cipp's idea that the Nazis are not as bad as the Soviets... I do know that some people actually think it would have been better if the Nazis won WWII...

btw, I don't really need any lectures or propaganda about USSR, I lived there and know more about it first hand than most of the folks here and I will be the first one here to admit all the negative aspects of totalitarianism and have never supported communists, I just feel we need to be really objective about things since it's not all black and white as it's often presented.

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#6222

Post by bal3x » May 17th, 2019, 2:40 pm

matthewscott8 wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 2:22 pm
bal3x wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 1:51 pm
@Art, there's no point arguing with Cipp, he has no clue what he's talking about, especially as far as USSR and Russia are concerned, his views are entirely based on propaganda sources. I will not be getting into this discussion, but it's rather depressing to read such rubbish and disinformation. At least I hope Cipp is not secretly admiring the Nazis...
The irony here is just incredible, you are literally talking to someone who posted propaganda and saying to them, don't bother talking to Cipp his views are entirely based on propaganda sources. This infographic about the Soviet Union is absolutely textbook propaganda, a completely biased selection of facts designed to lead one to a false impression. Also your last point about whether Cipp is secretly admiring Nazis is a blatant smear has he's made it pretty clear he didn't find their actions acceptable.
Blatant smear? I don't quite see the statement about their actions not being acceptable, I only see that "Soviets killed more people than the Nazis".. if I missed something I do apologize.
But Cipp said above "Brazil are lucky to have such a President". I realize some folks confuse Nazism with fascism, but still..

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#6223

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » May 17th, 2019, 2:58 pm

There is less bias in my USSR post since one of them is by the fucking CIA out of all groups. It's also more than just the space race. It's showing that America thinks they're all good and the winner of practically everything, even when it's clearly bullshit.

You also should see how both types of ideologies have modernized. There may be a bias here since I'll be mentioning the Communist Party of Canada, but hell I'm Canadian.

They want to cut the military budget by 75%, and still provide elections and a free press. Hardly part of the totalitarianism movement. They take the good aspects of communism and use that to improve their ideology, such as more rights for workers, providing the essentials for everyone, more taxes for capital gains and stocks (income is income, making 50% of capital gains your income, or even worse, MUCH less in America, is absolute horseshit). Also creating more industries public, so that they will not be driven just by profit. You could argue that it's not "true" communism, but since it is the communist party and I'll gladly vote for them, I consider myself to be a communist.

Modern day fascism on the other hand, need I say more? I mean look at Brazil and Israel, or the alt-right movement. It may be even more extreme than it was back then.

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#6224

Post by Cippenham » May 17th, 2019, 3:14 pm

bal3x wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 1:51 pm
@Art, there's no point arguing with Cipp, he has no clue what he's talking about, especially as far as USSR and Russia are concerned, his views are entirely based on propaganda sources. I will not be getting into this discussion, but it's rather depressing to read such rubbish and disinformation. At least I hope Cipp is not secretly admiring the Nazis...
Is Solzhenitsyn a propaganda source? Try reading The Gulag Archipelago. As far as I am aware the nazi ideology is a form of socialism but a bitter and twisted one. I believe murder is an inevitable outcome of Lenin ideas as he believed you cannot make an omelette without cracking eggs.

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#6225

Post by Cippenham » May 17th, 2019, 3:27 pm

Have you read the great work The Main Currents of Marxism. I read some large amounts of this as well as reading Solzhenitsyn whilst I was at college. It is clear stalinism and Leninism are not distortions of Marxism but one of it’s possible interpretations. The book describes Marxism as the greatest fantasy of the twentieth century. A dream of a perfect society which became the foundation of a monstrous edifice of lies exploitation and oppression.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Cu ... of_Marxism

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#6226

Post by Cippenham » May 17th, 2019, 3:40 pm

Have you read the great work The Road to serfdom . This shows central planning and interventionism inevitably lead to authoritarianism.

https://fee.org/articles/hayek-on-the-s ... of-nazism/

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#6227

Post by Cippenham » May 17th, 2019, 3:47 pm

It seems Johann Plenge a Marxist German scholar who later became more nationalist played an important part in developing nazi ideas. Later the German youth movement which was originally socialist changed to a fusion of extreme nationalist as well.

Another critic of Marxism Arthur Moeller van den Bruck played a major role in nazi ideology. He called for a conservative national socialism but his ideas are more similar to that of the EU than the nazis which is scary.

https://www.counter-currents.com/2012/0 ... s-thought/

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#6228

Post by matthewscott8 » May 17th, 2019, 4:11 pm

XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 2:58 pm
There is less bias in my USSR post since one of them is by the fucking CIA out of all groups. It's also more than just the space race. It's showing that America thinks they're all good and the winner of practically everything, even when it's clearly bullshit.

You also should see how both types of ideologies have modernized. There may be a bias here since I'll be mentioning the Communist Party of Canada, but hell I'm Canadian.

They want to cut the military budget by 75%, and still provide elections and a free press. Hardly part of the totalitarianism movement. They take the good aspects of communism and use that to improve their ideology, such as more rights for workers, providing the essentials for everyone, more taxes for capital gains and stocks (income is income, making 50% of capital gains your income, or even worse, MUCH less in America, is absolute horseshit). Also creating more industries public, so that they will not be driven just by profit. You could argue that it's not "true" communism, but since it is the communist party and I'll gladly vote for them, I consider myself to be a communist.

Modern day fascism on the other hand, need I say more? I mean look at Brazil and Israel, or the alt-right movement. It may be even more extreme than it was back then.
I'm not disputing any of the figures in the infographic, or any of the sources. I'm saying that they've been collected together to create a false impression of a brutal and repressive regime that routinely murdered even minor dissenters, and controlled every aspects of its citizens lives. This must never happen again, the hammer and sickle represented a regime of profound evil. I have no idea about the Communist Party of Canada, they sound like socialists from your description and I have no problem with socialism.

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#6229

Post by matthewscott8 » May 17th, 2019, 4:36 pm

bal3x wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 2:40 pm
matthewscott8 wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 2:22 pm
bal3x wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 1:51 pm
@Art, there's no point arguing with Cipp, he has no clue what he's talking about, especially as far as USSR and Russia are concerned, his views are entirely based on propaganda sources. I will not be getting into this discussion, but it's rather depressing to read such rubbish and disinformation. At least I hope Cipp is not secretly admiring the Nazis...
The irony here is just incredible, you are literally talking to someone who posted propaganda and saying to them, don't bother talking to Cipp his views are entirely based on propaganda sources. This infographic about the Soviet Union is absolutely textbook propaganda, a completely biased selection of facts designed to lead one to a false impression. Also your last point about whether Cipp is secretly admiring Nazis is a blatant smear has he's made it pretty clear he didn't find their actions acceptable.
Blatant smear? I don't quite see the statement about their actions not being acceptable, I only see that "Soviets killed more people than the Nazis".. if I missed something I do apologize.
But Cipp said above "Brazil are lucky to have such a President". I realize some folks confuse Nazism with fascism, but still..
Someone needs to say something pro-Nazi before you imply that they might be Nazi sympathisers. I guess you could read his initial comment either way, but it sounded to me like he disliked both the swastika and the hammer and sickle. Bolsonaro is an asshole but he's no Hitler.

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#6230

Post by Dolwphin » May 17th, 2019, 4:38 pm

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#6231

Post by matthewscott8 » May 17th, 2019, 4:58 pm

Dolwphin wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 4:38 pm
PREACH

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#6232

Post by xianjiro » May 17th, 2019, 5:08 pm

bal3x wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 1:51 pm
@Art, there's no point arguing with Cipp, he has no clue what he's talking about, especially as far as USSR and Russia are concerned, his views are entirely based on propaganda sources. I will not be getting into this discussion, but it's rather depressing to read such rubbish and disinformation. At least I hope Cipp is not secretly admiring the Nazis...
which information are you calling "rubbish and disinformation"? Art's posts or something our favorite alt-wrong supporter wrote?

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#6233

Post by xianjiro » May 17th, 2019, 6:16 pm

bal3x wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 2:25 pm
matthewscott8 wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 2:22 pm
bal3x wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 1:51 pm
@Art, there's no point arguing with Cipp, he has no clue what he's talking about, especially as far as USSR and Russia are concerned, his views are entirely based on propaganda sources. I will not be getting into this discussion, but it's rather depressing to read such rubbish and disinformation. At least I hope Cipp is not secretly admiring the Nazis...
The irony here is just incredible, you are literally talking to someone who posted propaganda and saying to them, don't bother talking to Cipp his views are entirely based on propaganda sources. This infographic about the Soviet Union is absolutely textbook propaganda, a completely biased selection of facts designed to lead one to a false impression.
Good points, at least you go into detail and know the subject, I don't have to agree with what Art posted above (even though some of that is actually correct), but I was reacting more to the Cipp's idea that the Nazis are not as bad as the Soviets... I do know that some people actually think it would have been better if the Nazis won WWII...

btw, I don't really need any lectures or propaganda about USSR, I lived there and know more about it first hand than most of the folks here and I will be the first one here to admit all the negative aspects of totalitarianism and have never supported communists, I just feel we need to be really objective about things since it's not all black and white as it's often presented.
well, and it sort of begs the question, does communism require totalitarianism to exist? If so, then it's not anything like an 'ideal' solution in my book. I'm also not a big fan of 'tyranny of the majority' either.

probably the saddest contribution both Stalinist and Maoist made was the idea of 'political re-education'. Even the name is a disgusting misnomer. It's all about indoctrination for successful group think. Doesn't really matter if it's against the aristocracy and supporting all workers - I'd much rather people come to these realizations on their own terms an not at the point of a gun.

But one thing that was interesting was post-Soviet interviews (think it might have been about a decade after the collapse) with average Russians who hadn't been able to take part in the capitalist free-for-all. They mentioned missing things like knowing they had housing, access to healthcare, and a regular source of food. Sure, no Gucci or mangoes, but they had a basic job, earned enough for housing, and put food on the table. It's clear a lot of people are more than happy to give up a lot of 'freedom' to know their children aren't going hungry.

The guy living under the highway bridge at the end of town has lots of 'freedom', doesn't he? How many people want this kind of 'freedom' either?

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#6234

Post by xianjiro » May 17th, 2019, 6:17 pm

XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 2:58 pm
There is less bias in my USSR post since one of them is by the fucking CIA out of all groups. It's also more than just the space race. It's showing that America thinks they're all good and the winner of practically everything, even when it's clearly bullshit.

You also should see how both types of ideologies have modernized. There may be a bias here since I'll be mentioning the Communist Party of Canada, but hell I'm Canadian.

They want to cut the military budget by 75%, and still provide elections and a free press. Hardly part of the totalitarianism movement. They take the good aspects of communism and use that to improve their ideology, such as more rights for workers, providing the essentials for everyone, more taxes for capital gains and stocks (income is income, making 50% of capital gains your income, or even worse, MUCH less in America, is absolute horseshit). Also creating more industries public, so that they will not be driven just by profit. You could argue that it's not "true" communism, but since it is the communist party and I'll gladly vote for them, I consider myself to be a communist.

Modern day fascism on the other hand, need I say more? I mean look at Brazil and Israel, or the alt-right movement. It may be even more extreme than it was back then.
sorry, but everything wrong with America is actually Canada's fault!!! :P Just ask Matt Stone and Trey Parker.

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#6235

Post by bal3x » May 17th, 2019, 6:48 pm

matthewscott8 wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 4:36 pm
bal3x wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 2:40 pm
matthewscott8 wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 2:22 pm
The irony here is just incredible, you are literally talking to someone who posted propaganda and saying to them, don't bother talking to Cipp his views are entirely based on propaganda sources. This infographic about the Soviet Union is absolutely textbook propaganda, a completely biased selection of facts designed to lead one to a false impression. Also your last point about whether Cipp is secretly admiring Nazis is a blatant smear has he's made it pretty clear he didn't find their actions acceptable.
Blatant smear? I don't quite see the statement about their actions not being acceptable, I only see that "Soviets killed more people than the Nazis".. if I missed something I do apologize.
But Cipp said above "Brazil are lucky to have such a President". I realize some folks confuse Nazism with fascism, but still..
Someone needs to say something pro-Nazi before you imply that they might be Nazi sympathisers. I guess you could read his initial comment either way, but it sounded to me like he disliked both the swastika and the hammer and sickle. Bolsonaro is an asshole but he's no Hitler.
I didn't actually imply anything, I only said "I hope Cipp is not secretly admiring the Nazis" which is not saying he actually does, right? But I'm glad we have sorted that out then and generally are in agreement about these things :) And just to reiterate - both Stalinism and Hitlerism were horrible in their own way, but I think we can certainly agree that overall the Nazis were much more evil than the Soviets due to the very nature of their ideology which was targeting specific ethnic/social groups which was not the case with the Soviets whereby everyone suffered... on the other hand it took a monster to defeat a monster... that's the sad truth and the horrible sacrifice that was made. I must also say Stalin is being viewed more and more favorably in Russia.. the problem here is how the question is being phrased (i.e. whether you ask if he was a genius leader or you approve of his methods.. without doubt there were results, but at what cost...

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#6236

Post by bal3x » May 17th, 2019, 6:50 pm

xianjiro wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 5:08 pm
bal3x wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 1:51 pm
@Art, there's no point arguing with Cipp, he has no clue what he's talking about, especially as far as USSR and Russia are concerned, his views are entirely based on propaganda sources. I will not be getting into this discussion, but it's rather depressing to read such rubbish and disinformation. At least I hope Cipp is not secretly admiring the Nazis...
which information are you calling "rubbish and disinformation"? Art's posts or something our favorite alt-wrong supporter wrote?
Well, it was more of a general comment about Cipp's sources, he's been posting crap links regularly. Art is a known red :lol: :lol:


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bal3x
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#6238

Post by bal3x » May 17th, 2019, 7:08 pm

xianjiro wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 6:16 pm
bal3x wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 2:25 pm
matthewscott8 wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 2:22 pm
The irony here is just incredible, you are literally talking to someone who posted propaganda and saying to them, don't bother talking to Cipp his views are entirely based on propaganda sources. This infographic about the Soviet Union is absolutely textbook propaganda, a completely biased selection of facts designed to lead one to a false impression.
Good points, at least you go into detail and know the subject, I don't have to agree with what Art posted above (even though some of that is actually correct), but I was reacting more to the Cipp's idea that the Nazis are not as bad as the Soviets... I do know that some people actually think it would have been better if the Nazis won WWII...

btw, I don't really need any lectures or propaganda about USSR, I lived there and know more about it first hand than most of the folks here and I will be the first one here to admit all the negative aspects of totalitarianism and have never supported communists, I just feel we need to be really objective about things since it's not all black and white as it's often presented.
well, and it sort of begs the question, does communism require totalitarianism to exist? If so, then it's not anything like an 'ideal' solution in my book. I'm also not a big fan of 'tyranny of the majority' either.

probably the saddest contribution both Stalinist and Maoist made was the idea of 'political re-education'. Even the name is a disgusting misnomer. It's all about indoctrination for successful group think. Doesn't really matter if it's against the aristocracy and supporting all workers - I'd much rather people come to these realizations on their own terms an not at the point of a gun.

But one thing that was interesting was post-Soviet interviews (think it might have been about a decade after the collapse) with average Russians who hadn't been able to take part in the capitalist free-for-all. They mentioned missing things like knowing they had housing, access to healthcare, and a regular source of food. Sure, no Gucci or mangoes, but they had a basic job, earned enough for housing, and put food on the table. It's clear a lot of people are more than happy to give up a lot of 'freedom' to know their children aren't going hungry.

The guy living under the highway bridge at the end of town has lots of 'freedom', doesn't he? How many people want this kind of 'freedom' either?
Well, yeah, I guess history shows us that communism as intended by those you mention does not actually work... there's ongoing debate in Russia how USSR could have been saved by adopting something like the Chinese model... the only totalitarian communist model has remained in NoKo, the others like Vietnam and now even Cuba are adapting capitalist trends at least as far as the economy is concerned, China has selected a hybrid model that seems to be working so far..

And you make good points about freedom vs social security, many people remember too well the 90s in Russia for instance, that was a horrible time for most.. an absolute disaster. I read an interesting opinion that the Laissez-faire Americans aka Chicago Boys who were "consulting" Moscow in the 90s property grab can be thanked for bringing Putin to power- there's actually some truth to that.. and I guess some countries are in fact less opposed to a "strong hand" style leadership than others, China especially and Russia seems to favor these along with some of the Middle East states, but I guess that is their own choice..

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#6239

Post by Cippenham » May 17th, 2019, 9:31 pm

There is a massive disconnect between elected politicians and the people. The elected currently are much more liberal and globalist. That is why Brexit, Trump, yellow vest movement and growth in nationalist parties has happened. If you read Spengler Decline of the West he correctly predicted this kind of thing. The EU Is deliberately undemocratic. There is a backlash against all this. Nothing wrong with moderate sensible nationalism , protection of borders, promoting Christianity not other religions, and protecting families against minority interests. This is what people want but instead we get mass immigration, promoting minority rights, all that green nonsense when humans do not control climate, and not protecting babies , children, families but deliberately trying to destroy families. There is a backlash against all that.

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#6240

Post by Knaldskalle » May 17th, 2019, 9:52 pm

Cippenham wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 9:31 pm
Nothing wrong with moderate sensible nationalism , protection of borders, promoting Christianity not other religions
Why single out one imported Middle Eastern religion over the others? Kick 'em all out I say and return, like a good moderate conservative populist nationalist, to the religion of your ancestors.

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I expect to see you at the next Druid meeting, Cipp.
Personal film goals for 2019.
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