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The Political Lounge

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Re: The Political Lounge

#5681

Post by bal3x » February 11th, 2019, 3:41 pm

No doubt bribed by free lunch and brought in by buses driven by the bus driver Maduro himself :lol:

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#5682

Post by Mario Gaborović » February 11th, 2019, 3:57 pm

10th week of anti-government protests in Belgrade, and in 50 towns around the country as well. Yours truly (fist raised) pictured in his local rally :)

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Let populist regimes rot in hell :party:

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#5683

Post by bal3x » February 11th, 2019, 4:00 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
February 11th, 2019, 1:57 pm
To be honest, solving the crisis with a fair and open election is a pretty decent compromise, but the US and parts of the world literally blackmailing the voters (i.e. the obvious threat: "vote for Maduro and we'll starve you with sanctions") should not in any way be viewed as acceptable (and their general meddling in politics across the world, to the point of endorsing the self-elected "leader" goes beyond anything Trump is accused on in regard to "Russiagate", yet almost everyone keeps quiet about it)

(I don't want to comment on the internal conflict as there is so much contradictory information that it is incredibly hard to get a clear image of what's actually going on. That said it is clear Maduro has made decisions that, at the very least seem to, run counter to democracy).
Agree fully with this. I believe if the external forces left them alone they would sort this out themselves during the next election.. there is no genocide or similar reasons for external actors to meddle in there! I'm pretty certain if the vast majority of the population actually wanted Maduro gone they would have removed him long time ago, - lies, corruption and drug money can only get you so far.. while it's true that it's very difficult to get a clear picture of what's actually happening since there is a lot of disinformation and propaganda on all sides, it's also rather clear that not just the Maduro policies are to blame for this crisis, the real question is how much of a role the sanctions, embargo and sabotage have played here and how much of that is due to sheer incompetence, corruption and greed of the ruling elite.. the truth is out there. I've read up a bit on the whole mess and it appears there are actually two parliaments there since the last Maduro election, the one in opposition to Maduro and the other one that Maduro created as an answer to that.. basically it is a constitutional crisis at the core.

But you're right that the double standard on display is again staggering... the whole "Russiagate" is so ridiculous in comparison.. The USA can just do anything since they control the global financial system whereby they can cut off anyone at will... plus of course the mighty military-industrial complex along with massive network of media "operatives" across the board. Go against them and you will feel the wrath. How many independent countries are there in the world today? I wonder if there really are more than 5? USA... Russia, China, Iran, N-Korea (lol) and Cuba? Do note how ALL of them are under a massive pressure across the board.

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#5684

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » February 11th, 2019, 4:03 pm

There definitely is a flaw in their system. I'm just siding with Venezuela as foreign intervention sounds like the worst thing possible to do. Plus I find the propaganda from the right being more silly than the left. I found a video by the left that may be considered propaganda but at least had sources. The right, well, look at the Breitbart article above.

This is basically going back to America's anti-communism views and possible attacks as they did in the 60s.

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#5685

Post by bal3x » February 11th, 2019, 4:06 pm

Mario Gaborović wrote:
February 11th, 2019, 3:57 pm
10th week of anti-government protests in Belgrade, and in 50 towns around the country as well. Yours truly (fist raised) pictured in his local rally :)

Image

Let populist regimes rot in hell :party:
What are you protesting against there, mate? Is Vucic really left-wing? I didn't realize that...

EDIT: sorry, I read it wrong - populist, OK, I got it - so it's more about corruption and authoritarianism, right?
Last edited by bal3x on February 11th, 2019, 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#5686

Post by bal3x » February 11th, 2019, 4:07 pm

XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
February 11th, 2019, 4:03 pm
There definitely is a flaw in their system. I'm just siding with Venezuela as foreign intervention sounds like the worst thing possible to do. Plus I find the propaganda from the right being more silly than the left. I found a video by the left that may be considered propaganda but at least had sources. The right, well, look at the Breitbart article above.

This is basically going back to America's anti-communism views and possible attacks as they did in the 60s.
Sorry, I don't really read Breitbart :lol: Oh yes, I do feel we're in the McCarthyism 2.0...

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#5687

Post by bal3x » February 11th, 2019, 4:21 pm

XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
February 11th, 2019, 4:03 pm
There definitely is a flaw in their system.
And regarding this - there's no question about that. I do believe that essentially they (Chavez + Maduro) are the key reasons for the crisis - their intentions may have been positive (i.e. eliminate poverty, improve education etc.), but the way they have handled this has been pretty much disastrous. They had no backup plan whatsoever, they had no long-term strategy at all. What do you expect if 90% of your budget income comes from oil? FFS, they even cannot feed their people... and that is land with good fertile soil, WTF? They must spend hard currency on importing food... no wonder they're screwed. If they diversified their economy it would have been much more difficult for the US to pressure them.. Learn from Russia and Iran.. self-dependence is key. That said, that regime would have long been gone if it was not for China/Russia, I'm pretty sure their support has been instrumental and continues to be.. even though one must wonder at what point that support stops..

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#5688

Post by Mario Gaborović » February 11th, 2019, 4:25 pm

bal3x wrote:
February 11th, 2019, 4:06 pm
What are you protesting against there, mate? Is Vucic really left-wing? I didn't realize that...
He was a ultraright, pro-war nationalist back in the 90s who persecuted free media. Once he realized seizing power is impossible with such stands, from 2012 he's posing as Eurofan in order to put his hand on EU funds, while on the other hand organizes a festive welcome for Putin:
https://www.alo.rs/resources/images/000 ... 1000x0.jpg
His party is numbering 700,000 members and most of them found employment via partocracy; these people, however, are obligated to attend election campaigns where they cruise from town to town in organized bus transport in order to show large support for the president. Those who disagreed to join the party were usually fired, while the members are monitored when they leave the gatherings early and stuff like that. Almost all media (except N1) are under his command which sistematically discredit the opposition leaders and every different oppinion. Moreover he's keeping close ties with mafia; the protests began when one of the minor party leaders was hit in the back of the head with an iron rod prior to holding a speech in provincial venue. Only a few weeks later a smalltown journalist's (who wrote about financial manipulations in his town) house was set to fire in the middle of the night; when he and his wife tried to leave the house, the attackers started shooting at them so they couldn't get out and burn inside.

If you know how Orban and Kaczinsky operate, that's exactly the same. Except that tabloid news close to the ruling party are pro-Putin and anti-American.

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#5689

Post by bal3x » February 11th, 2019, 4:31 pm

Mario Gaborović wrote:
February 11th, 2019, 4:25 pm
bal3x wrote:
February 11th, 2019, 4:06 pm
What are you protesting against there, mate? Is Vucic really left-wing? I didn't realize that...
He was a ultraright, pro-war nationalist back in the 90s who persecuted free media. Once he realized seizing power is impossible with such stands, from 2012 he's posing as Eurofan in order to put his hand on EU funds, while on the other hand organizes a festive welcome for Putin:
https://www.alo.rs/resources/images/000 ... 1000x0.jpg
His party is numbering 700,000 members and most of them found employment via partocracy; these people, however, are obligated to attend election campaigns where they cruise from town to town in organized bus transport in order to show large support for the president. Those who disagreed to join the party were usually fired, while the members are monitored when they leave the gatherings early and stuff like that. Almost all media (except N1) are under his command which sistematically discredit the opposition leaders and every different oppinion. Moreover he's keeping close ties with mafia; the protests began when one of the minor party leaders was hit in the back of the head with an iron rod prior to holding a speech in provincial venue.

If you know how Orban and Kaczinsky operate, that's exactly the same. Except that tabloid news close to the ruling party are pro-Putin and anti-American.
Thanks for the insights. I have always wondered how Vucic managed to "sit on 2 chairs"... but I do have a question for you: would you say the Serbs today are generally anti-American and more pro-Russian? Has that changed in the recent years? I would imagine they have less problems with the EU, but the NATO bombing is still pretty much in memory I guess.

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#5690

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » February 11th, 2019, 4:33 pm

bal3x wrote:
February 11th, 2019, 4:21 pm
XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
February 11th, 2019, 4:03 pm
There definitely is a flaw in their system.
And regarding this - there's no question about that. I do believe that essentially they (Chavez + Maduro) are the key reasons for the crisis - their intentions may have been positive (i.e. eliminate poverty, improve education etc.), but the way they have handled this has been pretty much disastrous. They had no backup plan whatsoever, they had no long-term strategy at all. What do you expect if 90% of your budget income comes from oil? FFS, they even cannot feed their people... and that is land with good fertile soil, WTF? They must spend hard currency on importing food... no wonder they're screwed. If they diversified their economy it would have been much more difficult for the US to pressure them.. Learn from Russia and Iran.. self-dependence is key. That said, that regime would have long been gone if it was not for China/Russia, I'm pretty sure their support has been instrumental and continues to be.. even though one must wonder at what point that support stops..
Chavez vastly improved the country in the short-term, but it was cause they got lucky with the huge increase in the price of oil. They definitely needed to be a lot more self-sufficient if they wanted the system to run well. I'm not gonna go like Cipp and say the system itself cannot work. I do believe socialism can work. It's just gotta be from a self-sufficient country.

The fact that Venezuela also has tons of oil just screams what America might do. A mix of McCarthyism and the era of the Bushes.

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#5691

Post by bal3x » February 11th, 2019, 4:38 pm

XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
February 11th, 2019, 4:33 pm
bal3x wrote:
February 11th, 2019, 4:21 pm
XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
February 11th, 2019, 4:03 pm
There definitely is a flaw in their system.
And regarding this - there's no question about that. I do believe that essentially they (Chavez + Maduro) are the key reasons for the crisis - their intentions may have been positive (i.e. eliminate poverty, improve education etc.), but the way they have handled this has been pretty much disastrous. They had no backup plan whatsoever, they had no long-term strategy at all. What do you expect if 90% of your budget income comes from oil? FFS, they even cannot feed their people... and that is land with good fertile soil, WTF? They must spend hard currency on importing food... no wonder they're screwed. If they diversified their economy it would have been much more difficult for the US to pressure them.. Learn from Russia and Iran.. self-dependence is key. That said, that regime would have long been gone if it was not for China/Russia, I'm pretty sure their support has been instrumental and continues to be.. even though one must wonder at what point that support stops..
Chavez vastly improved the country in the short-term, but it was cause they got lucky with the huge increase in the price of oil. They definitely needed to be a lot more self-sufficient if they wanted the system to run well. I'm not gonna go like Cipp and say the system itself cannot work. I do believe socialism can work. It's just gotta be from a self-sufficient country.

The fact that Venezuela also has tons of oil just screams what America might do. A mix of McCarthyism and the era of the Bushes.
Oh yeah, if they had no oil there would be much less interest... all you need to do is look at how the West handled Rwanda genocide...

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#5692

Post by St. Gloede » February 11th, 2019, 4:49 pm

It is incredibly important to note that Venezuela does not actually have a socialist economy (of any kind). In terms of collectivization they are even behind Norway and Denmark (before the Financial crash made private companies fire employees - the government has not let the employees go - they were comparable to France in regard to Public vs. Private sector).

(And in terms of diversification, they should probably have been prepared for this - but I think essentially any "smaller" country would fail to provide expected products if under heavy sanctions - essentially no one produces all neccesary products within their own borders and if they do, not enough the supply the entire nation)

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#5693

Post by bal3x » February 11th, 2019, 4:54 pm

Well, yeah, but I was reading Venezuela was actually the richest country in the entire South America back in the 70s (there were people from Europe emigrating over there...) so the decline has been rather massive in comparison, they are currently bordering on a failed state status. When folks cannot buy toilet paper the situation is serious..

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#5694

Post by Mario Gaborović » February 11th, 2019, 4:57 pm

bal3x wrote:
February 11th, 2019, 4:31 pm
Thanks for the insights. I have always wondered how Vucic managed to "sit on 2 chairs"... but I do have a question for you: would you say the Serbs today are generally anti-American and more pro-Russian? Has that changed in the recent years? I would imagine they have less problems with the EU, but the NATO bombing is still pretty much in memory I guess.
It isn't changed but Vučić and his minions became too self-esteemed and obnoxious that even some right-wing parties and nationalists joined the protests.

Most of his voters are older, poorly educated people from province who have no interest in politics at all, or understand anything that happens around them (let alone world politics). I'll never forget the beginnings of that cartel, when they were still opposition (from 2011), when they held a meeting in the capital and some (obviously) uneducated villagers came to give their support for him. Let images speak for themselves: :facepalm:


Translation of the ridicule around them:
- Just be patient!
- Now, this is unbelievable.
- Hey, Progressive party. Not the Regressive one.

So these are the people who rule our lives.

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#5695

Post by Cippenham » February 11th, 2019, 5:10 pm

Don’t think US will invade, Trump is ending wars not starting them and has great achievements in foreign policy

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#5696

Post by Cippenham » February 11th, 2019, 5:40 pm

Madura supporters are marching for oppression starvation and tyranny

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#5697

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » February 11th, 2019, 6:07 pm

I noticed a correlation. People who tend to hate tyranny tend to be religious. I find this hilarious honestly. They talk shit about tyranny but follow the most tyrannical leader of them all. They follow someone who says to believe in him and follow a list of 10 rules or else they get sent to a place where they get tortured for eternity.

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#5698

Post by Gershwin » February 11th, 2019, 10:00 pm

XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
February 11th, 2019, 6:07 pm
I noticed a correlation. People who tend to hate tyranny tend to be religious. I find this hilarious honestly. They talk shit about tyranny but follow the most tyrannical leader of them all. They follow someone who says to believe in him and follow a list of 10 rules or else they get sent to a place where they get tortured for eternity.
Nah, that’s really a caricature, and a very strict interpretation of ‘religious’. A lot of the religious people I know (but I’m in the Netherlands, admittedly) tend to like the Jesus person and his presumed left-wing policies, try to live altruistic, try to act against climate change because they think they should care for the world, and don’t believe in a place like hell (or maybe only for orange monkeys).

I think I’m happy not to live in Europe. :lol:
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#5699

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » February 11th, 2019, 10:10 pm

Gershwin wrote:
February 11th, 2019, 10:00 pm
XxXApathy420XxX wrote:
February 11th, 2019, 6:07 pm
I noticed a correlation. People who tend to hate tyranny tend to be religious. I find this hilarious honestly. They talk shit about tyranny but follow the most tyrannical leader of them all. They follow someone who says to believe in him and follow a list of 10 rules or else they get sent to a place where they get tortured for eternity.
Nah, that’s really a caricature, and a very strict interpretation of ‘religious’. A lot of the religious people I know (but I’m in the Netherlands, admittedly) tend to like the Jesus person and his presumed left-wing policies, try to live altruistic, try to act against climate change because they think they should care for the world, and don’t believe in a place like hell (or maybe only for orange monkeys).

I think I’m happy not to live in Europe. :lol:
Like you, I guess it's due to the religious people we know. I am too used to the strict religious views mostly due to my upbringing and looking at how the religious people in America tend to be.

There is this book I wanna read by Reza Aslan. He argues that Jesus was a political rebel. I also see theories stating that he was in fact a socialist.

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#5700

Post by RBG » February 11th, 2019, 10:56 pm

yes he was absolutely a socialist. people HATE it when i say that :lol:

another thing i like to tease them about is all the bunnies and eggs at easter. it's clearly a SEX holiday B)
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#5701

Post by bal3x » February 11th, 2019, 11:16 pm

Mario Gaborović wrote:
February 11th, 2019, 4:57 pm
bal3x wrote:
February 11th, 2019, 4:31 pm
Thanks for the insights. I have always wondered how Vucic managed to "sit on 2 chairs"... but I do have a question for you: would you say the Serbs today are generally anti-American and more pro-Russian? Has that changed in the recent years? I would imagine they have less problems with the EU, but the NATO bombing is still pretty much in memory I guess.
Most of his voters are older, poorly educated people from province who have no interest in politics at all, or understand anything that happens around them (let alone world politics).
isn't that always the root cause of a lot of problems? :lol: :lol: That said one has to realise there's a reason why these people are poorly educated and thus poor and thus have difficulty understanding what's going on. The previous governments also have to assume responsibility for the situation - unless of course there's some force majeure circumstance like war etc., which indeed was the case with Yugoslavia, but obviously each of the new republics went their own way about it.

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#5702

Post by Cippenham » February 12th, 2019, 9:17 am

Religion is freedom from tyranny if you are not using it to force views in others but for your own perceived benefit including making you a better person.

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#5703

Post by Dolwphin » February 12th, 2019, 4:18 pm

Solidarity with the Bolivarian Revolution; Total rejection of interventionist regime change wars. :cowbow:
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#5704

Post by Cippenham » February 12th, 2019, 6:50 pm

Solidarity with the Spanish opposition , they stand to win big.

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#5705

Post by Dolwphin » February 12th, 2019, 9:36 pm

Cippenham wrote:
February 12th, 2019, 6:50 pm
Solidarity with the Spanish opposition , they stand to win big.
I'm not surprised that you are thrilled about vigilantes burning Afro-Venezuelans to death & market liberalization & Super-power reestablishing its grip on the country.
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#5706

Post by bal3x » February 12th, 2019, 11:45 pm

Not quite sure what "Spanish opposition" Cipp is referring to...

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#5707

Post by Cippenham » February 13th, 2019, 12:31 pm

I mean the opposition parties in Spain not in South America. Sorry for not making that clear. I don’t support the actions referred to above.

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#5708

Post by Gershwin » February 13th, 2019, 4:12 pm

Didn't expect the Spanish opposition!
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#5709

Post by RBG » February 13th, 2019, 4:25 pm

i thought maybe cipp wanted spain to retake south america :huh:
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#5710

Post by Mario Gaborović » February 13th, 2019, 4:52 pm

Full support to Juan Guaidó and I hope that populist jerk will be removed as quickly as possible.

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#5711

Post by Cippenham » February 13th, 2019, 5:48 pm

RBG wrote:
February 13th, 2019, 4:25 pm
i thought maybe cipp wanted spain to retake south america :huh:
No 😃

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#5712

Post by RBG » February 13th, 2019, 6:05 pm

i wouldn't be shocked to learn that you're a monarchist :ermm:
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#5713

Post by Cippenham » February 13th, 2019, 8:05 pm

Only a limited constitutional monarchy is ok, like in most European countries still with a monarchy.

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#5714

Post by Dolwphin » February 14th, 2019, 5:32 am

Mario Gaborović wrote:
February 13th, 2019, 4:52 pm
Full support to Juan Guaidó and I hope that populist jerk will be removed as quickly as possible.
Actually you should support me, I just declared myself president of Venezuela (& Cuba for good measure). :banana:
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#5715

Post by St. Gloede » February 14th, 2019, 6:58 am

Another really intriguing poll from Norway, which, if true, would make Labour smaller than the 3 other left parties (Red Party, Socialist Left and Center Party) in terms of MPs - 54 vs. 51 (and the 5 other parties would only get 64 MPs, 1 of which is a Green).

Highlights:
- 104 MP majority for removing the Liberal Government (vs. 63 MPs for the 4 parties currently in a majority government)
- 28 MPs left of Labour
- Record 7.8% for the Red Party
- Social Liberals and Christian Democrats, each currently with 8 MPs each would only get 1 each (as they fall under 4%)

Image

Translation, and from left to right as depicted:

AP = Labour (Social Democrats)
H = Conservative Party (Liberals)
FrP = Progress Party (Right Wing Populists)
Sp = Center Party (Agrarians)
SV = Socialist Left (Democratic Socialists)
V = Liberal Party (Social Liberals)
KrF = Christian Democrats (Christian Democrats)
MDG = Green Party (Greens - center left)
Red Party (Socialist)
Andre = Other (Usually a combination of Coast Party, Pensioner Party, Libertarians, etc.)

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#5716

Post by Cippenham » February 14th, 2019, 9:08 am

Well Norway has so much money they can do anything , any crazy policy for a few years and get away with it except massive fraud I guess.

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#5717

Post by Mario Gaborović » February 14th, 2019, 6:41 pm

bal3x wrote:
February 11th, 2019, 11:16 pm
Mario Gaborović wrote:
February 11th, 2019, 4:57 pm
bal3x wrote:
February 11th, 2019, 4:31 pm
Thanks for the insights. I have always wondered how Vucic managed to "sit on 2 chairs"... but I do have a question for you: would you say the Serbs today are generally anti-American and more pro-Russian? Has that changed in the recent years? I would imagine they have less problems with the EU, but the NATO bombing is still pretty much in memory I guess.
Most of his voters are older, poorly educated people from province who have no interest in politics at all, or understand anything that happens around them (let alone world politics).
isn't that always the root cause of a lot of problems? :lol: :lol: That said one has to realise there's a reason why these people are poorly educated and thus poor and thus have difficulty understanding what's going on. The previous governments also have to assume responsibility for the situation - unless of course there's some force majeure circumstance like war etc., which indeed was the case with Yugoslavia, but obviously each of the new republics went their own way about it.
I'm mostly interested how did you react to the "stupid villagers who vote for nationalists meet escalator for the first time in their lives" video.

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#5718

Post by bal3x » February 14th, 2019, 7:02 pm

Mario Gaborović wrote:
February 14th, 2019, 6:41 pm
bal3x wrote:
February 11th, 2019, 11:16 pm
Mario Gaborović wrote:
February 11th, 2019, 4:57 pm

Most of his voters are older, poorly educated people from province who have no interest in politics at all, or understand anything that happens around them (let alone world politics).
isn't that always the root cause of a lot of problems? :lol: :lol: That said one has to realise there's a reason why these people are poorly educated and thus poor and thus have difficulty understanding what's going on. The previous governments also have to assume responsibility for the situation - unless of course there's some force majeure circumstance like war etc., which indeed was the case with Yugoslavia, but obviously each of the new republics went their own way about it.
I'm mostly interested how did you react to the "stupid villagers who vote for nationalists meet escalator for the first time in their lives" video.
Oh, there's not much to react to, I've seen enough of these as well...

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#5719

Post by Cippenham » February 15th, 2019, 3:57 pm

https://torrentfreak.com/eu-reaches-dea ... ns-190213/

Goodbye YouTube and the free internet in EU

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St. Gloede
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#5720

Post by St. Gloede » February 16th, 2019, 1:14 pm

Now this is an interesting one!

The Church of Norway publicly apologizes for its previous harsh stance on abortion.

The letter, signed by the 12 bishops Norway goes on to state that:

- The church has throughout history has acted contrary to women's freedom and liberation
- That their rhetorics have not been good for public discourse
- That their abortion stance has put an extra burden on single mothers
- A society with legal rights to abortion is a better society than one without such access

The letter was signed by all 12 bishops:

Image

Source in Norwegian: https://www.vl.no/nyhet/biskopene-bekla ... -1.1279008

(It is worth noting that this comes just a few weeks after the Christian Democrats joined the Liberal government with a promise of the first restriction on abortion rights since the law was passed in the 70s)

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