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The Political Lounge

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Lakigigar
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Re: The Political Lounge

#5561

Post by Lakigigar » January 13th, 2019, 1:14 pm

I'm so paranoid that a vote for the greens will be a vote for the liberals, and the last thing i want to do is INDIRECTLY voting liberals... The only way to stop liberals might be to vote far-right... But I HATE THEM. I absolutely hate them, and some people in the far-right are racists, fascists, absolutely terrible. I'm just so paranoid... I mean i can't vote nationalist because evne though it's populist they'll still ally with liberals... I can't vote christian democrat and social democrat because their first government partner are the liberals... What you gonna do, you will always get the liberals

Even if the far-right will be in government, i'm so sure that after they allied with nationalists, some liberals will join them. We always get the liberals... And if the marxists, greens and social democrats form a coalition in the government, their next coalition partner is the liberals. Even a populist centrist movement (that doesn't exist) or a yellow vest movement would probably form a coalition with liberals, because you know they're always in the government, extremely pro-business, anti-climate and anti-working class people, and they let herds of immigrants in. They're fake, they're pro-1%. They're corrupt. I hate them.

I might vote RELUCTANTLY (hold my nose down) for the far-right after all, because in this country you're not allowed anymore to say your opinion of what you believe in), and even though i disgust that a real fascist is on the list (and will represent the youth) in a different province than mine, but than again, other parties give NO CHANCES at all for the youth. That 25-year old fascist is going to be the only person aged under 30 years who will sit in the parliament... If they give no chances to young people, why should i even bother of herds of old people who will die in 10, 20 years old and have no incentive to care for the climate???

Nothing is happening about climate change, nothing is happening at all... And the greens are fake, they won't do anything for the climate, because the first government partner are going to be the pro-business liberals as well... I mean how credible can you be???? :blink:

The chairman of the flemish liberal party is so right-wing... and i absolutely hate her... My vote doesnt' matter eitherway, so i might as well vote for the far-right, especially federally (or for flanders). For the European elections, i'm hoping for a different party to pop up... maybe a yellow vests movement would be great or a different anti-racist populist movement from the center.

"A Belgian Confederation is our highest ambition"

The nationalists have started their campaign as well. I hate them as well. They're neoliberal and hard economically right-wing and believe in the opposite i believe in... And if the far-right ever enters government, they might as well start talks with them (ugh).

I'm afraid the far-left will not have enough votes anyway in my province, and than it is indirectly a vote for the parties in power eitherway. But voting green is voting voting for fake and corrupt liberals??? Voting green, liberal or any centrist party is also voting for fake media, and they'll raise taxes on us to fund the fake media that attack the freedom of opinion???

What i want is a return to normalcy on social issues, politicians that care about working class issues, an ambitious climate agreement, and more safety measures to reduce crime and terrorism

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#5562

Post by Cippenham » January 13th, 2019, 2:12 pm

Forget left and right they are anti authoritarian and anti globalisation . It started as a movement against fuel taxes. The left try to take it over and maybe they have in Paris. But to me they represent ordinary people middle class and workers trying to get to work having to pay high taxes to get to work. They don’t need leaders or anyone hijacking it for their own purposes. Some far right and left groups as well try to hijack but in the towns and cities it represents orfdniary people against the globalists it seems to me.

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#5563

Post by St. Gloede » January 13th, 2019, 2:24 pm

That sounds pretty left wing to me.

What else would you call ordinary people standing up for their own interests?

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#5564

Post by RBG » January 13th, 2019, 2:30 pm

But aren't the fuel taxes intended to fight global warming. I know tax on fossil fuels is the only thing that would make people here drive less. You wouldn't believe the monster trucks here

And gas and diesel run 2-2.5 euros per gallon. very cheap

Crude conversion tells me fuel in France is more than twice that now. You'd for sure get an angry mob at those prices but I don't see a quicker way to make people cut back
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#5565

Post by St. Gloede » January 13th, 2019, 4:12 pm

Fighting global warming by targeting people's ability to live and work is just horrible policy, and it came after Macron gave massive tax cuts to the rich.

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#5566

Post by RBG » January 13th, 2019, 4:24 pm

I don't see how u fight it while selling monster trucks and suvs

These people don't care enough to stop unless it hurts. Then they'll protest for their right to destroy the environment. Can't wait for that one :rolleyes: this is why we have climate deniers: they don't want to believe it because they don't want to change
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#5567

Post by OldAle1 » January 13th, 2019, 4:43 pm

Clearly it's a complex strategy, particularly in car-centric countries like the USA, Canada, Australia - and I suppose to a lesser extent France, Germany, Spain, the U.K. etc where you have long distances between some smaller towns and cities and public transportation doesn't always make sense - or won't make sense until there have been massive changes in infrastructure, prices, and frankly lifestyle. Obama certainly was trying to move us in the right direction in one respect with upping the fuel economy standards but, even if Trump were to leave that in place it wouldn't be enough. Seems to me you need a mix of a lot of things at the same time -

1 - increased budgets for public transportation and incentives (i.e. low prices, better service) for people to take it

2 - increasing gas taxes within suburban and urban areas, and congestion charges/taxes, linked to (1)

3 - higher fuel mileage standards and aggressive pushing for greener private vehicles - fuel cells, electric, solar, etc - and buyback programs to get those old white rural conservatives who drive their ancient pickups and SUVs to trade them in for something more environmentally friendly

4 - new urbanism - making downtowns more functional for pedestrians, bikers, and users of public transportation, in both larger and smaller cities

5 - better public transport connections between urban centers, i.e. more regional public transport. This is one of the areas where the US is really woeful and I suspect things are much better in most of Europe. There isn't any direct, easy way to get from downtown Chicago to downtown Milwaukee for example - only 150 km apart and with suburban buildup continuous in between. Unless you want to take 2 1/2 hours or more, transfer multiple times, and spend 3x what you would driving, you'd never do it. The northeast coast is the only area that deals with this even minimally.

Probably some other major elements I'm not thinking of now, but the important thing is that it has to be a comprehensive and unified approach with all of these factors or it won't work. You can't leave the old white conservatives out in the boonies behind - but you also can't let them dictate that it should be cheap and easy to drive everywhere you want to in Chicago or L.A. Any one of them in isolation is going to do very little, and only (3) even gets talked about much in thee USA - only by Democrats at that of course. I've been interested in these issues for a long time and there's an awful lot of literature and not a few films dealing with some of it, I'd personally recommend

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/08654 ... UTF8&psc=1

And of course the whole car culture - suburban lifestyle thing has ramifications far beyond global warming, though I would say that in it's tendency to keep us isolated from each other and less concerned with or even aware of community life, it's had an impact on making it easier for many to close their eyes to the worldwide problem - when you care only about yourself and your own family it's astonishingly easy for many to pretend they aren't really part of the whole planet and it's environment.

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#5568

Post by St. Gloede » January 13th, 2019, 5:11 pm

I agree with OldAle!

What Norway is doing, and every single party (with a slight protest from the right wing populists) has mutually agreed to, was to ban new cars using fossil fuel by 2025 (a phase out process). This means that if you wish to buy a new car, it will be enviromentally friendly, while it will not hurt low earners who then would not be able to cope. It is simply cruel to destroy or hurt people under the pretext of caring about the enviroment. Many people in rural areas would not be able to afford electric cars - nor with the area be prepared for them, which of course is something most ignore.

If you want to end high emission cars why not ensure cheaper electric cars, either through subsidies or by setting up state industries creating them. Your suggestion of a buypack program would be a great addition as well. People need to get from A to B, and in rural areas collective transport is not really an option like it is in a city. That said, in cities and suburbs a well functioning collective transport system could and should become the norm, and free collective transport would justify banning or heavily taxing cars using fossil fuels (Talinn has been providing free public transport since 2013, and Estonia is actually a pretty right wing country). The entirety of Luxembourg will actually have free collective transport for all by 2020.

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#5569

Post by RBG » January 13th, 2019, 5:42 pm

Yes ofc it's more complicated but carbon tax has to be part of it. Not 'clean coal' and drilling the arctic. It will require huge investment and the rich don't want to pay
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#5570

Post by Lakigigar » January 13th, 2019, 6:13 pm

Well... the problem with fighting climate change is that all measures centrist, liberal and right-wing government take are to raise taxes or take measures that hurt the working class, while elitists aren't hurt by climate change measures. That's the problem.

The fuel taxes hurt WWC people a lot, and if we're raising prices for public transport as well (by privatizing them), it's going to be impossible for some families to be able to finance theirselves. The division between rich and poor is rising, and measures against climate change just create more economic inequality. And because of that the anti-immigration and maybe anti-climate change sentiment is rising, because the rich are just making it seem so that climate change measures hurt working class people.

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#5571

Post by Cippenham » January 13th, 2019, 6:14 pm

there was reported a gas explosion in Paris in a bakery, but the owner said there was no gas in his shop apart from a small supply for heating and all his ovens were electric so it seems odd.

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#5572

Post by Cippenham » January 13th, 2019, 6:15 pm

Left or right is a little out of date. It’s the communist liberal globalist elites against the ordinary citizens.

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#5573

Post by Cippenham » January 13th, 2019, 6:16 pm

The citizens will vote accordingly in the EU elections.

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#5574

Post by Lakigigar » January 13th, 2019, 6:17 pm

Cippenham wrote:
January 13th, 2019, 6:15 pm
Left or right is a little out of date. It’s the communist liberal globalist elites against the ordinary citizens.
WTF COMMUNIST ELITES
do you even know what you're saying???

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#5575

Post by Knaldskalle » January 13th, 2019, 6:23 pm

Cippenham wrote:
January 13th, 2019, 6:15 pm
Left or right is a little out of date. It’s the communist liberal globalist elites against the ordinary citizens.
Cippenham, ladies and gentlemen. Next week: Cipp and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Personal film goals for 2019.
ImageImageImageImage

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#5576

Post by Cippenham » January 13th, 2019, 6:38 pm

Electrical cars are actually more damaging to the environment than petrol

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#5577

Post by RBG » January 13th, 2019, 6:41 pm

:lol:
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#5578

Post by Cippenham » January 13th, 2019, 8:39 pm

The elites are liberal and corporations and banks are headed by people who promote left wing ideology like diversity equality and anti racism and s no blame culture. They believe in higher minimum wage to placate low wages, unlimited immigration to keep wages low and to destroy the indigenous culture and to destroy patriotism and nationalism. Those people who object are labelled racist. These people loved Tony Blair the high priest of eurocommunism. So they have adopted the Eurocommunist line and cultural Marxism absolutely. But people now want their country back and to make their own laws so that means a new movement in many countries to fight against it. Are these people left or right? Which side are you, these elites or the people?

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#5579

Post by Lakigigar » January 13th, 2019, 9:01 pm

i would have never voted for tony blair. he's not socialist! he event went to war with iraq, do you call that a working class prime minister. Definitely no.

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#5580

Post by St. Gloede » January 13th, 2019, 9:15 pm

Cippenham wrote:
January 13th, 2019, 8:39 pm
The elites are liberal and corporations and banks are headed by people who promote left wing ideology like diversity equality and anti racism and s no blame culture. They believe in higher minimum wage to placate low wages, unlimited immigration to keep wages low and to destroy the indigenous culture and to destroy patriotism and nationalism. Those people who object are labelled racist. These people loved Tony Blair the high priest of eurocommunism. So they have adopted the Eurocommunist line and cultural Marxism absolutely. But people now want their country back and to make their own laws so that means a new movement in many countries to fight against it. Are these people left or right? Which side are you, these elites or the people?
Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism.

Corporations are capitalist.

The elites are primarily the people who own capital.

Liberalism and Capitalism are the right wing.

You can go further right, say, wanting to bring back serfs and feudal lords, but right now they are the furthest right you get.

Tony Blair is a liberal, he stood for moving Labour into a pro-capitalit market party - this was New Labour/Third Way.

It sounds like you have rebranded capitalism as communism for some reason.

Look at what you wrote - To you the left = corporations working to keep wages down ...

If you support the people against capitalism I suppose you are a communist/socialist.

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#5581

Post by Lakigigar » January 13th, 2019, 10:57 pm

I know my posting level is way too weak. I know i can do better. I'll apologize for it. For some reason, when i'm not being taken seriously enough, i'll behave like that. I'll try to stop posting here and in US politics but it's stronger than myself at times. I wish i could just not care about politics in general. It wouldn't have mattered anyway: abstain from voting always, never be engaged and never invest time in it because it exhausts me so much.

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#5582

Post by St. Gloede » January 14th, 2019, 10:14 am

I don't think this was posted - after months of messy negotiations Lövfen stays as the prime minister of Sweden - which is great as it ensures stability and keeps both the nationalists, and the right wing out of government. However, to manage to navigate this the compromise is with the two center right parties (The Center Party, who are Agrarians with Liberal economics and the Liberal Party, who are social liberals). They will still need the support of the Left party, but they are in a choke hole despite doing an incredibly good election.

THe below article was written before the deal was finalized, word is it has been made official today (but no English news is covering it yet)

https://www.thelocal.se/20190112/lofven ... alysts-say

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#5583

Post by bal3x » January 14th, 2019, 12:28 pm

Cippenham wrote:
January 13th, 2019, 6:38 pm
Electrical cars are actually more damaging to the environment than petrol
There's actually some truth to this statement since there's no such thing as a "green" or "environmentally clean" car, you could call it that when the factories and the whole supply chain making that car use ONLY renewable energy, which is a long way off. I've read that the current electric car production cycle is in fact not that much cleaner than the regular cars, especially as far as battery factories are concerned, - the current battery technology is very dirty... there's a reason none of the Western countries make batteries (with very few exceptions, e.g. Japan and Korea)... they outsource it to others.

All that said it's pretty obvious the oil lobby will do whatever they can to prevent rapid development of renewable energy, this has always been the case, we would have made much faster progress if it was not for the oil money.

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#5584

Post by Lakigigar » January 14th, 2019, 5:46 pm

Image

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#5585

Post by Lakigigar » January 15th, 2019, 1:09 am

Okay, this has become complicated

Bart De Wever hopes to become Flemish PM

Two weeks ago, this guy said he wants to be mayor for another 6 years. He was elected as mayor two months ago, and now he wants a different political mandate. This is what happens if you have few known politicians while having too many governments and political parties and whatever. I'll not reward this kind of politics. It's opportunism.

I've also noticed that they seem to not like the catholics anymore. I don't want the catholics anymore, because people who are religious frighten me a lot. I would rather prefer opportunist nationalists over scary religious people, esp. since religion still has a lot of importance in education and in our country at times, and some right-wing politicians still suggest religion has as much value as science, or that science can be wrong as well. Or that extremist climate science, or extremist science in general is dangerous as well.

Flemish elections: I can't take a social democrat - nationalist - liberal coalition seriously, especially after nationalist fought such an opportunist campaign over UN Immigration Pact, while social democrat recently have started criticizing immigration too and calling agreements social while they've done those agreements with two neoliberal parties. That's why i won't vote social democrat at least. I won't reward corruption as they've done so much, and i won't vote for a nationalist - liberal - social democrat coalition, but i don't want christian democrats either. Only options left over: far-right, green and communist. I don't want to support the far-right preferrably, and i'm also paranoid that the greens aren't really green, so probably communist, but i'm least sure about this one.

Federal elections: The blues and the greens seem to be allied as well, while the nationalist might be against the social democrats. I have a feeling the french-speaking social democrats might split with the flemish social democrats and not work together anymore (yes this is a complicated country), while i'm really questioning the ability of the greens to fight for a good climate agreement when they form a strong alliance with liberals - who've just increased CO² emissions while they were in the government as strongest cartel in the last 5 years - i mean how credible can you be? I also don't like the Green spokesmen, and think they're too liberal / naive on immigration. I won't vote for the nationalists either who abandoned the government for electoral reasons (opportunism), and didn't take their responsability. The liberal candidate is very right-wing, possibly the most right-wing of them all except on immigration where they're socially liberal (and on woman issues). She reminds me of Thatcher. I won't vote for the far-right either, as i don't see any reason to do that for a federal election, and because i don't want to reward them for putting a fascist young person on one of their lists (who is arrogant, and a rich men's child who's only attacking the media - and even though i'm critical of the media, he just loses credibility by attacking it so much and repeating it, like he doesn't talk about other issues. Literally 45 of his latest 50 tweets, were direct attacks on the media). He also has other reasons to be elected (parliamentary immunity, funding his white identitarian group). I won't support the far-right because i can't do it, but i would like to help create a shock wave throughout Belgium. I won't vote for christian democrats either, because of obvious reasons. It's almost 95% sure i'll vote communist here, partly because of an elimination process, and because they have good pro-action against climate candidates on their lists as well who i want to support in our state who i can vote for.

European elections: Priority number 1 is not voting ALDE or Macron. This leaves out the liberals of course, and also N-VA who might but probably won't join ALDE. Otherwise they will join ECR (European Conservatives, which is the same thing Tories or Poland's governing party is part of and which Orban could join). I don't want to support EPP (chirstian democrats either), partly because i don't want to indirectly support Rajoy and Orban. I don't want to support ENF and EFDD (far-right), which leaves me with three options: social democrats S&D, greens - EFA and communists - GUE/NGL). The main candidates of the Greens are not candidates which i want to support (one - arrogant - transsexual, sorry, and one ex-(left-wing) nationalist and social liberal who i see as an opportunist. Leaves me over with S&D and GUE-NGL. GUE-NGL will probably split between two or three factions, but my party will probably split with Syriza and Die Linke, and also not join Progressive EU (Hamon, Varoufakis), but will join FI (France - Melenchon), Podemos (Spain), Left Alliance (Finland), Vansterpartiet (Sweden) and BE (Portugal), and maybe Left-Green Alliance (Iceland) too. My choice is quite likely going to be GUE-NGL, and thus the communists as well.

The last thing i want to do is to support opportunism, corruption, the (liberal) elites, (liberal) establishment, religious freaks, the media, a naive approach towards immigration and terrorism and blatant attacks against immigrants and also the media (because it's not only the media itself, but also the parties criticizing it, i mean both Trump and CNN are terrible, and it's no different here as well. They both don't represent our interests).

Some of those votes might be thrown away, because i doubt that for those three they'll get the electoral threshold in my province anyway, and i can imagine the Belgian version of RBG criticizing me if nationalists and far-right have a good night for voting for quite an irrelevant party, but sorry, this is how it works, and if those elections have learned me one thing, it's to vote what you feel most comfortable at. I regret my 2014 votes (liberal lol - never liberal anymore), i regret what i preferred in 2016 (trump) and 2017 (second round - macron). My vote in 2018 was thrown away (but at least, i didn't had to regret them, as many in my town have done after social democrats have betrayed them). I'm not a liberal. I'm not far-right, and they'll never get my votes, or at least not when i don't want to. Simple and clear.

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#5586

Post by Lakigigar » January 15th, 2019, 1:39 am

To explain why i think flemish social democrats will split heavily with walloon social democrats, it's because christian democrats were part of the swedish coalition (flemish christian democrat - flemish & walloon liberal - flemish nationalist), which was in power federally and in flanders, while the walloon christian democrats broke with flemish christian democrats to join the walloon government (walloon social democrat - walloon christian democrat). After the many corruption scandals of the walloon social democrats, this walloon government collapsed, and walloon christian democrats distanced theirselves from the walloon social democrats, but meanwhile the walloon social democrats even made gains in the 2018 elections, because they saw the walloon liberals as betrayers because they were the only walloon party to join a right-wing mainly flemish coalition federally which was unpopular in wallonia, while they saw walloon christian democrats as irrelevant and opportunist because of that questionable move. The nationalists meanwhile made the federal government collapse over the UN Compact Migration issue after disappointing 2018 election results, in which a lot of their support went to the far-right, so they made a populist move to win those voters back, which might hurt standing among other ex-government partners, but some suggested it was a strategic move to make the walloon liberals less tied to the nationalists in order to make a next government with flemish nationalists in the coalition possible).

The flemish christian democrats were kinda necessary in the coalition, and they were pretty annoying over a lot of issues, and made working together quite hard. The nationalist chairman couldn't appreciate it, and because their most important political icon challenged the nationalist chairman in antwerp (most important flemish city), he saw that as offensive and ignored this opportunist move, to form a coalition with flemish social democrats instead (the party on which he shitted for like 5 years. there is a meme: "the social democrats have caused it" - when they talk about something bad to happen. Even though flemish social democrats were involved in several corruption scandals in Antwerp, The campaign in Antwerp was also very hard, partly because one of the most known nationalist politicians had an affair with an antwerp social democrat high-profile figure (which break out, and got leaked in the magazine's with the photo's).... That was part of the reason why the campaign was so hard, because it partly went over this relationship, instead of real issues. And the nationalist mayor got now re-elected but he will be transported to the flemish level, and a different mayor will now be appointed (which the people of antwerp see as a betrayal, because they voted for him, not for the one who's going to be appointed, it's similar to how a senator got elected, and than gets appointed in a cabinet job, and the governor appoints a different senator, but without a special election). Because of this, it's possible to use well known political persons multiple times in multiple elections to increase voter percentage).

The flemish social democrats seem to be the best positioned to replace the flemish christian democrats on the flemish level, and as a walloon social democrat + flemish nationalist seem unlikely and as flemish social democrats have different stances on the issues than walloon social democrats a split seem to be in the making. Flemish social democrats also don't want to be associated with the corruption cases of the walloon social democrats, but one of the main conditions to join a N-VA led coalition on a flemish level, will be to tie themselves to that party, which will make them probably join opposition on federal level. Liberals and greens also have made that agreement, which might might make weird coalitions

Flemish: N-VA (nationalist) + OVLD (liberal) + s.pa (social democrat)

possible alliances
CD&V (flemish christian democrat) - CdH (walloon christian democrat)
PS (walloon social democrat) - Ecolo (walloon greens)
Ecolo (walloon greens) + Groen (flemish groens)
MR + OVLD + Green + Ecolo (blue-green axis).
hard to predict. But in order to keep the N-VA (nationalists out), they might need to form a coalition between all of them, as far-right / far-left and other parties eat a decent chunk of votes, so possibly (if we exclude flemish social democrats as well), a coalition of seven political parties: walloon social democrats, flemish christian democrats, walloon christian democrats, flemish liberals, walloon liberals, flemish greens and walloon greens. (they might not even have enough)
Different possibility is also: flemish social democrats, flemish nationalists, flemish liberals, walloon liberals (might not have enough, it's hard)
and in french-speaking belgium walloon social democrats and walloon greens
while christian democrats being nowhere in power.

Far-right and far-left are always excluded from coalition talks as they're seen as undemocratic (but other see that as undemocratic measures). The far-right is seen as neo-fascist and extreme (polling at 15% but with higher potential), while the far-left is seen as neo-stalinist and extreme too (despite polling at 20-25% in both brussels capital region and wallonia). It won't change, partly because the far-right has many controversial candidates on their lists (incl. the person who attacks the media all the time, and who got caught in a prove uncovering racist, sexist and pro-holocaust / pro-hitler, pro-nazi comments in a discord group chat among that candidate, who is now being played as the main candidate).

But if far-left, far-right and greens are really going to be the winners of this election while the four traditional main fractions (who exclude far-left and far-right from being in power), it might make government talks even harder. They might just have to all work together (nationalist, greens, social democrats, liberals and christian democrats), if far-right and far-left become too big, because there might be no other way to keep them out of power if they become too big, except for forming a broad coalition between nine political parties, and the nationalists don't want to work together with the far-right as there would be no reason anymore for people to vote for them, as many people vote them because a vote for the far-right is thrown away, as no-one talks with them (and this partly keeps nationalist big). "Do you want to affect the country, vote nationalist". In order for the far-right or far-left to get power, they need to have an absolute majority which is impossible, but they just make politics a lot harder in this country, because this country has both one of the most popular far-right and popular far-left parties in Europe, and even potential for a different anti-establishment party of the center.

I partly see it as the authoritarian democracy or the liberal dictatorship, as you know whatever you do, nothing will happens, even if you vote nationalist or green or social democrat. What does it matter, they all represent the same things, just in a slightly different note, it's similar to how republicans and democrats aren't really that different. I mean a communist parliamentary system would also only include tens of parties that embrace communist while maybe having one capitalist party which would be seen as extreme (because it questions the status quo, in which the elites have taken their positions and have established theirselves). In Russia, every party is also pro-Putin, i mean. Every party in USA is pro-establishment and very imperalist, or you have to vote for Cruz / Trump or Sanders to even have a slight chance that it would change. They all have parliamentary systems which are very authoritarian. There is no way to fight the two party dictatorship in the USA. There is no way to beat the liberal dictatorship in Belgium or in France either, and the fake media is also part of it. You also know when the greens come in power that not much will change in terms of climate change (unfortunately). They just get votes because their name is: "green", while they don't advocate issues for climate change that much, just a few that mainly hurts working class people. If you study, you have to study the propaganda of the liberal dictatorship as well, yes.

And maybe it's similar to the communist dictatorship or the fascist dictatorship as well. We still have slavery. I can't see the argument that we've abandoned it. Not working in today's political climate is such a taboo.

Does freedom even exist?

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#5587

Post by Lakigigar » January 15th, 2019, 2:00 am

how a communist parliamentary system might work, some of the parties, but they all advocate the same system (which you can't change).
Stalinist / National socialist / maoist party (stalinist, neonazi, fascist) - challenger of the communist parliamentary system - where if it is established for a long time elites will have integrated into as well again and might support the status quo - similar to china or later years of the ussr, although with a parliamentary system
Social conservative socialist party (dixiecrat-like)
Revolutionary socialist (which might be maoist)
Democratic socialist party
Syndicalist party
Feminist party
Green party
Social Democrat party
Pensioner's Party
Immigrant's Party
Agrarians Party
Animals Party
Student's Party
Social liberal party
Liberal communist party
Maybe a big tent communist party
Capitalist party (which might be seen as far-right or far-left or as extreme, and study books would propagate that capitalism is an extreme ideology similar to how americans think communism is bad too).

The capitalist, revolutionary socialist and stalinist/National socialist/maoist parties would be anti-establishment parties. I think the times of a big tent communist parties are over as well. Parliamentary systems in Western Europe and America will often be fractured but mainly between parties that all advocate the same thing, but slightly differ on some issues, let's be honest about that. That's how it works, but a real democracy, nah i have to see one yet honestly.

There is a difference between the authoritarian democracy (like we have one now, in which liberals and elitists decide about the world), and the very authoritarian nations where ruthless and brutal dictators rule. I think communism is an improvement over what we have now, even if it has an authoritarian parliamentary system, but that is still a system we have never seen ever. The only communist nations have big tent communist parties that rule over the nation (maybe not ruthless or brutally, but with less freedom than what we experience now). I think communism could definitely work in a similar system like we have now, but i think we should aim for something better, something more socialist & with more freedom than now.

We won't see it in our lives, but it's possible. I refuse to believe communism is something bad, and i think liberalism and capitalism is something we will have to beat anyway, and also the authoritarian democracy which are different things.

I'll sleep now, but you can think thoroughly about it if you know what i mean and if you see it from out of the box perspective.

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#5588

Post by Lakigigar » January 15th, 2019, 2:16 am

actually, there is one example of a communist parliamentary system (not entirely but still), and it's also an authoritarian democracy just like most of the western nations, and it's venezuela. The "democratic socialist party" is the big tent party with minor left-wing parties in the coalition". It's not a good example, but if that coalition takes over, it would fully develop in one.

I don't think the problems in venezuela are related to the left also. The right had the same issues in the 1990's, it's why the left came in power also because of the economic crisis back than (for god's sake). The problem of venezuela is that it's very reliant on oil (almost 50%), and oil is not the future yes. And of course leaders and political parties are imcapable of dealing with that issue (the left nowadays and the right back than). Maduro is as bas ad most of the other western leaders, and it's still an authoritarian democracy, but i think and truly believe we can do better. Maybe not in the 21st century though. We will first have to fight and overthrow the globalist elite (unless they escape to our world's version of Elysium and leave the "people" behind on Earth which will slowly but surely collapse, destroy and eventually vanish (not literally, but metaphorically), while the elites set sail on their colony ship to a different planet (with the rich) in maybe now and 10.000 years, similar to how the media never reports about the heartland and mainland which is the abandoned already, while boston, new york and la are metaphorically alraedy the colony ship (their arc of noah, which will flee from this world that gets devastated).

But if we fight for it, we can have a truly WORLD DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST government. I just don't think we're ready for it yet, and will we ever be ready for it. It's kind of science-fiction.

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#5589

Post by Cippenham » January 15th, 2019, 4:59 am

bal3x wrote:
January 14th, 2019, 12:28 pm
Cippenham wrote:
January 13th, 2019, 6:38 pm
Electrical cars are actually more damaging to the environment than petrol
There's actually some truth to this statement since there's no such thing as a "green" or "environmentally clean" car, you could call it that when the factories and the whole supply chain making that car use ONLY renewable energy, which is a long way off. I've read that the current electric car production cycle is in fact not that much cleaner than the regular cars, especially as far as battery factories are concerned, - the current battery technology is very dirty... there's a reason none of the Western countries make batteries (with very few exceptions, e.g. Japan and Korea)... they outsource it to others.

All that said it's pretty obvious the oil lobby will do whatever they can to prevent rapid development of renewable energy, this has always been the case, we would have made much faster progress if it was not for the oil money.
That’s what I was referring to, and the electricity comes from power stations that use conventional not green energy

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#5590

Post by Cippenham » January 15th, 2019, 5:00 am

Venezuela is down to socialism, that is how it works, that is the future if you go down that path and it does not work

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#5591

Post by Cippenham » January 15th, 2019, 5:06 am

St. Gloede wrote:
January 13th, 2019, 9:15 pm
Cippenham wrote:
January 13th, 2019, 8:39 pm
The elites are liberal and corporations and banks are headed by people who promote left wing ideology like diversity equality and anti racism and s no blame culture. They believe in higher minimum wage to placate low wages, unlimited immigration to keep wages low and to destroy the indigenous culture and to destroy patriotism and nationalism. Those people who object are labelled racist. These people loved Tony Blair the high priest of eurocommunism. So they have adopted the Eurocommunist line and cultural Marxism absolutely. But people now want their country back and to make their own laws so that means a new movement in many countries to fight against it. Are these people left or right? Which side are you, these elites or the people?
Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism.

Corporations are capitalist.

The elites are primarily the people who own capital.

Liberalism and Capitalism are the right wing.

You can go further right, say, wanting to bring back serfs and feudal lords, but right now they are the furthest right you get.

Tony Blair is a liberal, he stood for moving Labour into a pro-capitalit market party - this was New Labour/Third Way.

It sounds like you have rebranded capitalism as communism for some reason.

Look at what you wrote - To you the left = corporations working to keep wages down ...

If you support the people against capitalism I suppose you are a communist/socialist.
I disagree with nearly all of that as if you are on a different planet, sorry about that. Not going into it all at this time though. I come out as a conservative on all tests.

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Post by Cippenham » January 15th, 2019, 5:17 am

I already said corporations and the Us Democrats, and many established governments like Blair did believe in Eurocommunist ideology, with unlimited immigration, national minimum wage, obsession with equality legislation. This makes It like a reformist communism ideology. Theresa May also believes in some of this. I don’t believe in that, I believe in the nation state, standing up for our interests in our country, and controlling immigration. I would be a moderate conservative nationalist. But I don’t like racism. In fact I want less people with low skills from Eastern Europe and more skilled workers from other countries. The corporations keep wages down by backing policies unlimited immigration of unskilled people. That is why they like the EU and in US paid Hillary a lot just to make a speech, they are not really paying for a speech but for influence and that is wrong.

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Post by Cippenham » January 15th, 2019, 5:21 am

I support the people against the liberal left elites , they do want a world socialist government. Complete control with one currency, no democracy at all. A new world order. These people are the enemy of the people. Like East Germany they would call themselves democratic but would be the opposite of democracy. They won’t allow us in the UK to have our Brexit which we voted for but will ignore us. They deserve to pay a heavy price for that.

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#5594

Post by Gershwin » January 15th, 2019, 6:31 am

You probably didn't know this, but religious people still have this cult of secretly slaughtering babies. Especially catholics do this. But of course the freemasonry has covered this whole thing up.
RokP 250

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Post by RBG » January 15th, 2019, 6:58 am



cipp's gonna love this
icm + ltbxd

NO GODS NO MASTERS

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#5596

Post by maxwelldeux » January 15th, 2019, 7:18 am

Gershwin wrote:
January 15th, 2019, 6:31 am
You probably didn't know this, but religious people still have this cult of secretly slaughtering babies. Especially catholics do this. But of course the freemasonry has covered this whole thing up.
I don't follow this thread and have zero idea of the context of this quote, but as someone who spent 17 years in Catholic school, I can confirm that Catholics love slaughtering babies. My 100-level religion class in college was "Slaughtering Babies 101" and it can best be described as "wet." Our textbook, "Don't get caught slaughtering babies: 1001 tips to get away with ritualistic murder" was one of the few textbooks that sold back to the publishers for a reasonable price, as there were so many students who elected to keep it that used copies were hard to come by.

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Post by Cippenham » January 15th, 2019, 12:34 pm

Max that is funny but sick sense of humour

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#5598

Post by RBG » January 15th, 2019, 12:38 pm



oh no it's the ice age
icm + ltbxd

NO GODS NO MASTERS

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Post by matthewscott8 » January 15th, 2019, 1:50 pm

Anecdote from a stroll at Christmas with my dad, the subject of communism came up and he said, "the reason I hate communism, is it wants to take everything I worked for away from me". I pointed out that the central thrust of Marx was exactly the opposite, e.g. to stop a capital class harvesting the product of your labour, he didn't really know what to say, just said something about how they were violent. Although again in nearly every political conversation I have with him he advocates a violent solution. Politics is essentially a tribal matter, my Dad will vote Tory until he dies. He will vote for a potato in a pair of glasses if it has a Tory rosette.

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#5600

Post by matthewscott8 » January 15th, 2019, 2:09 pm

RBG wrote:
January 15th, 2019, 12:38 pm


oh no it's the ice age
A significant number of people believe the earth to be flat and the moon landings fake. We're in the post truth era, posting scientific findings about the environment no longer matter unless they are directly tangible. E.g. people can see there is a problem with plastic if you show them a picture of an oceanic mat of plastic. A picture of an ice sheet is just a picture of an ice sheet.

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