The Political Lounge

[Dolwphin]

I was just following the Pretentious Hipster though local anarchists are generally young (certainly a lot younger than me). Also, it's kind of funny that "anarkids" would be considered derogatory when talking about people who spray paint "Fuck _______" all over town. If "Fuck _______" is a leftist ideology that deserves the same treatment as say, Sanders platform, then

So, I guess the guy going around slashing random people Waltham, Massachusetts is just practicing illegalism as well and deserves respect?

No, banning Fs and other sex-related slurs is a rightie thing, although I think they should be deprecated to some extent.

Killing random people is a wacky ideology for sure. However people who are causing way more objective grief than a random murderer are still celebrated.

Personally I think jailing someone is likely worse than murder. Sooo a prison abolitionist hunter could actually be at least marginally a better person in my eyes than, well, almost everyone on earth.

Armoreska is not coping well with his modest life under-ground after his revolutionary bank robbery. He is anxious about being apprehended by the authorities. The forum wishes him good-luck in discovering rational thinking and not further descend into madness.

[xianjiro]

never would have guessed people would be so upset by Nepal's "(revisionist) communists"

[Pretentious Hipster]

[xianjiro]

I'm never very fond of sweeping generalization like A is better than B, even more so when an international community is talking about something like prisons. Sure, prison in Norway is probably preferable to death - are we talking quick via lethal injection or slow via inadequate medical care or via a terror campaign waged by an opposing gang? - but would choices be so quick if we were talking about prison in El Salvador?

but yes, on a whole, most people would probably prefer to take their chances is most any prison if the alternative was a painful death (say hanging)

I'd prefer to talk about just how good life can and should be inside.

[Pretentious Hipster]

I can see the concept of defund the police working in other countries. Not necessarily get rid of cops, but to do stuff like decriminalizing drugs, legalizing sex work, and putting more into welfare programs, job placement, and social workers. If people have a chance at a "good life" then I believe they'll be less inclined to do crime. Of course there'll be the few psychopaths, but it's a numbers game.

[xianjiro]

I really wonder about this stuff, especially what deters people from committing crimes. We're told the death penalty is a deterrent, but where is the statistical evidence? (I haven't searched but seem to remember reading something that was unable to show this statistically.) Then there's the whole issue of crimes of 'passion.' Yes, most people think "I'd do X but don't want to go to jail." so they don't do it. But this is assuming a normally functioning brain (and for now I'm ignoring socio- or psychopathology). People who don't have normal coping skills make inappropriate life choices which often runs them right into the criminal justice system. Even if they graduate, it's not a guarantee that they will learn "when you only have enough to pay the rent to keep from being evicted, you'll go to food bank for food instead of stealing something from the local market". Then you've got issues about people committing crimes simply because they are bored. Or even peer pressure. Don't forget, even the well-educated steal: they just tend to steal a lot more. Seems like there's a country with a leader a lot like that - or several. And just because someone is doing well in school isn't a guarantee they won't join a gang, but no education increases the likelihood significantly.

But if you're just talking about ending the war on drugs and stop the "get tough on drug users" nonsense: no, sending someone to jail isn't a good social choice because they use. And of course we're once again debating the "purpose" of prisons (at least in the US): are they for rehabilitation, restoration, reeducation, or revenge? Clearly a polarized electorate is going to be just as polarized on this topic, so we get these swings. One of the biggest problems is that prison tends to reinforce inappropriate and undesirable coping skills thus suggesting its not the best alternative unless someone needs to be removed from society at large. But it seems that the US penal system is largely about punishment and retribution.

[xianjiro]

Here's an example of just how perverted the prison discussion is in the US. Our legislature has been arguing about closing two state prisons to save money. The argument against?

But lawmakers from both parties made emotional pleas during the August special session to preserve jobs in the struggling small towns, and the Legislature ended up leaving the prisons untouched.

Documents reviewed by The Oregonian/OregonLive show that people from those communities offered arguments that sidestepped the broader criminal justice debates playing out nationally and focused instead on their communities’ economic reliance on prisons. They cited the need for well-paying prison jobs and the cost-savings of having inmates carry out public works projects.

Coos Bay’s city manager, Rodger Craddock, told lawmakers that inmate labor from Shutter Creek saves the city an estimated $40,000 a year in public works spending, costs “the city cannot absorb.”

And a Shutter Creek counselor, saying she depends on her job for its medical benefits, urged lawmakers to look to other prisons for potential closure. “A closure in Salem would not have the impact that the closure in North Bend will,” Trish Michaelson wrote.

In another example of how reliant some communities have become on prisons, North Bend leaders lamented that closing Shutter Creek would mean higher water bills for residents because of an unusual subsidy the city receives from the state.

- source

On the one hand, if you have enough demand, it makes sense to have prisons in communities throughout the state ideally so inmates can be housed closer to their support structure, but this doesn't necessarily play out in these systems. I'm also not sure how bigger vs smaller really works in jails - where are there economies of scale and when do such economies lead to great problems with morale, internal crime, rioting, etc.

But one of the important facts on the ground here is that legalization of marijuana and decriminalization of other "hard" drugs means we need to put fewer people in jail. Couple that with a diversion program for those with mental illness (treatment, not punishment) and we would see a dramatic decline in the 'need' for prisons, and yes, this money can be used to fund something like preschool. (See this follow up piece on the budget.)

[Knaldskalle]

Personally I think jailing someone is likely worse than murder.

That's not what it means.

[prodigalgodson]

Lol

[Pretentious Hipster]

https://twitter.com/SpookySocialist/sta ... 30049?s=19

[Armoreska]

I retook 8values but Arthur still wound up more extreme than me.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1535&p=650965&hili ... es#p650965

I've heard Trump killed a black guy recently for 20 year crime (not murder but assistance or smth).

Not actually sure how I feel about prison. That being said, a system like this is WAYYY better than what America was. The fact that it's one of the safest countries in the world is proof that it works

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l554kV12Wuo

well that's more of a rehab i guess. I've been to a worse one (probably) and certainly didn't commit any crime. hey school was probably similarly restrictive. at least lucky to avoid conscription.

However, I absolutely believe in the existence of prisons and life sentences.

Who's going to pay for prisons? That's 5% of tax money.
Do prisoners have any choice in your system?

potentially confrontational post hidden

Then again, perhaps it only matters if they've caused enough objective grief. Sure, a girl who was raped and murdered certainly hated it while it was happening, and it ruined the lives of her loved ones, but the perpetrator had a blast, therefore the grief isn't really "objective." It's a wacky ideology for sure, but it doesn't do as much harm as people who eat hamburgers.

That's right, it's a natural part of life in a society and humans have done that always and it has been working out fine. I'll also add that suppressing desires might be bad for mental health.

Dude you are straight-up tripping. No one I know who's done time would rather have been murdered

Certainly not a majority, but I haven't asked. Who did?

soapboxie.com/government/Death-Penalty-Pros-and-Cons
"A life spent in prison is a worse punishment than an execution. A life sentence prisoner has many years to endure their punishment, as well as experience remorse and reflect on his or her crimes."

It's a not that unpopular "unpopular opinion".
https://www.reddit.com/r/unpopularopini ... han_death/

Even though I'm generally a promortalist, I still think that the overton window of who individual people are "allowed" to kill or maim should be shifted left (well, duh).
Virtually nobody should be put in any cage (other than the "cage" of existence, altho that is also debateable) for an extended period of time - I'm sure there could be a few rare exclusions that I would be able to agree to.

but I really didn't ever expect to see anything in this community as morally repugnant as Armoreska's post

You must have missed Cippenham. Oh wait you're probably on the same team with him. Do we really care what right wing authoritarians consider immoral - we've heard enough over the years.
I thought you've said you like life punishment, a candidate for most immoral book ever written, and eating corpses. Perhaps that's just the top of the iceberg.

Even a lot of the lifers manage to find some form of meaning while they're spending the rest of their earthly days behind bars.

Right, indeed we should all relax and let fascists take over. After all, we're all capable of adapting, finding a meaning of life in any situation. Trump 2024, Crowder 2028, New Order for congress.

innocent people - who's innocent? Pretty sure everyone's guilty of something by some metric.

Armo is an Olympic-level mental gymnast and clings to concepts and isms he doesn't fully grasp. My post was a bad joke about that and I regret it. It's not that funny but its hard not to react to this nonsense.

Lilarcor, what are you, what are your actual views on stuff? Have you taken (X)values or at least a political compass or smth?
For being an expert on concepts you don't post much.
I don't blame you for being either dense or having a different opinion. You are the result of your genes and environment, just as I am. Well, mostly parasocial environment in my case.

By the way, as to the earlier vandalism confrontation, here's a nice article:
http://humaniterations.net/2012/02/29/y ... -audience/
and this was the other I think I may have posted before
https://thenewinquiry.com/in-defense-of-looting/

If the option is dying or spending days, weeks, months, years in a fairly decent environment where I can read, watch films, play games, study, etc. I'd definitely pick the latter.

This sounds like an enticement to commit crimes. I've no problem with you guys paying for this. But most countries likely don't have resources and could use the money for something else other than marinating people in cages.

As a rule it certainly is, I think there could be an opening for a case by case argument. Much as how it is considered an act of grace to kill a dying animal rather than let it suffer.

Of course, this would only go for life-sentences on top of prisoners spending their time in unacceptable prison environments and/or suffering greatly from the experience itself (guilt, illness, ...). When there's no hope of rehabilitation, you have to wonder what good a prison does.

voice of reason

Armoreska is not coping well with his modest life under-ground after his revolutionary bank robbery. He is anxious about being apprehended by the authorities. The forum wishes him good-luck in discovering rational thinking and not further descend into madness.

not sure if you're the best ambassador of the normies

[kongs_speech]

You are, with all due respect, a brainlessly edgy pile of wank and a potential danger to society who should absolutely fuck 100% of the way off and never cease fucking off. I genuinely wish ill upon you. Again, I stress that I mean that with all due respect.

[Armoreska]

I rest my case.

[kongs_speech]

Rape and murder (of humans) are natural desires and repressing them is bad for mental health but "corpse eating" (of animals) causes enough objective grief to make you curl up in a ball and cry? Sure, Jan.

[St. Gloede]

I have to remind you, Armo - your original argument was that killing people is more immoral than placing them in good living conditions where they can be rehabilitated - I don't see you defending this claim. All I see is talking of taxes - and how you don't think treating people well is reasonable if it hurts your pocket book.

[St. Gloede]

potentially confrontational post hidden

Then again, perhaps it only matters if they've caused enough objective grief. Sure, a girl who was raped and murdered certainly hated it while it was happening, and it ruined the lives of her loved ones, but the perpetrator had a blast, therefore the grief isn't really "objective." It's a wacky ideology for sure, but it doesn't do as much harm as people who eat hamburgers.

That's right, it's a natural part of life in a society and humans have done that always and it has been working out fine. I'll also add that suppressing desires might be bad for mental health.

I assume/hope your apparent endorsement of rape and murder is sarcasm.

[Lilarcor]

Seek therapy Armo.

[xianjiro]

can you ever really have true anarchy without turning a blind eye to things like rape and murder and revenge killings for revenge killings of rapists and murders? If there is no law (and therefore no feigned order), we are entirely dependent on the goodwill of our fellow anarchists, are we not?

Oh, you know how Bill is: he gets that itch every six months or so and just has to go out on a rapin' and murderin' jag, but whachagunnado? We're anarchists after all!

[Pretentious Hipster]

Weird how at around the same time Vaush tweeted an anti-communist tweet that ended up being in support for fascism.

https://twitter.com/MarxismLenlnlsm/sta ... 38050?s=19

[St. Gloede]

I really don't want to discuss Youtubers, so I will only discuss the basis of this claim.

Finland was not a Fascist country in WW2. They had Liberal lead coalition governments (which included the Social Democrats) throughout the war.

They were invaded by the Soviet Union in 1939 (see: Winter War, Continuation War - the aim of the Soviet Union was simply to take over all of Finland) and ended up fighting the same enemy as Nazi Germany. This ended with Finland having to fight off Nazi Germany as well.

(Also, by this metric the Soviet Union was also pro-Fascism, as they allied with Nazi Germany to take Poland).

[Pretentious Hipster]

https://twitter.com/historiclypod/statu ... 52132?s=19

[St. Gloede]

Zinger tweets are not really the best way to get facts, especially when the tweet has no sources.

I actually looked into this claim, googling with the title, and it is false. Or rather, the tweet lies about the article. Here's the first paragraph in the captioned article:

An Israeli Holocaust historian has praised Finnish authorities for publishing a report revealing atrocities likely committed by a volunteer battalion which served with Nazi Germany's Waffen-SS.

This was not conducted by Finland or the Finnish Army - but by Waffen SS.

Furthermore:

The leading Finnish military historians who undertook the probe into the country's wartime role wrote that those Finnish troops likely witnessed shootings and other atrocities against Jews and other civilians by advancing Nazi troops.

In other words, even the degree of participation from the SS volunteers is unknown - hence the specification "likely". The article does state that 8 are still alive - but included no additional information on them.

It is worth noting that the Finnish government does bear some responsibility:

Isolated from the rest of Europe and afraid of another Soviet attack, the small Nordic country entered into an alliance with Nazi Germany, receiving weapons and other material help from Berlin.

As a part of the pact, Nazi SS chief Heinrich Himmler insisted that the Finns dispatch soldiers to the SS Wiking division similar to the volunteers it demanded from Nazi-occupied Belgium, Denmark, the Netherlands, Norway and elsewhere.

Reluctantly, Finns complied and covertly recruited the first group of 400 SS volunteers to be sent for training.

Full article: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-11/ ... s/10798222

It is also worth noting that Finland did have Concentration Camps, but not for Jews - they were for Soviet Citizens: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Kare ... tion_camps

[prodigalgodson]

Whoa, I'm late to the party but that Armoreska post is a humdinger. On top of the nutty offensive shit, you're not even arguing a point, you're just linking to other nutcases. Stand on your own two, fool.

[Dolwphin]

Finland was no good rascals as always, those alcoholic sauna goers can't be trusted! We Swedes, on the other hand, was very virtuous during WW2. We conducted ourselves very beautifully! You would have loved to have seen it folks!

[Knaldskalle]

Finland was no good rascals as always, those alcoholic sauna goers can't be trusted! We Swedes, on the other hand, was very virtuous during WW2. We conducted ourselves very beautifully! You would have loved to have seen it folks!

Yeah, staying "neutral" during WWII while still allowing German troops to transit through Sweden to aid in the invasion of Norway...

[St. Gloede]

Can't say I'm overly proud of Norway either. Honestly, Norway getting invaded is even partially on Norway.

"We" were convinced it was Britain that was going to invade us and we let it be known we would not be able to defend ourselves against an invasion ... (as we were seeking support).

And it was true, we lasted 1 day against the Germans.

Or, at least that's the most common story. We did last 1 day until they took Oslo, but the government and the army went north and kept fighting for a long time.

(Note: In Norway's defense, Britain was actually planning to invade us ... See: Plan R 4)

[xianjiro]

see, all that socialism made you forget your Viking heritage and your atheism removed the will to fight your way into Valhalla. Gosh, what next? Turn over the government to the Ruskies?

[OldAle1]

OK, the question was asked in another thread whether there were other coups, or attempted ones, like what just happened in the USA. I answered with Lukashenko in Belarus this past year, but I don't know how good a comparison that was. This article is pretty good and it's got links to other stuff that I haven't looked at yet, but as I suspected there's a lot of focus on Latin America

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-fr ... worldwide/

I think it's good for all of us to inform ourselves a bit more about this stuff before rushing to judgement or using the wrong language (which I've probably done myself to be honest). This seems like a quick start. Any recs on good books or more detailed websites or pages on this would be helpful, particularly ones focusing on really modern events.

[xianjiro]

I'm a bit too tired right now to delve into this and an internal presidential coup on the legislature isn't bringing anything to mind right now. Might have some thoughts later though. But I'm thinking this is pretty rare in western democracies. Even something like the Russian attack on their White House (seat of parliament) was actually against Yeltsin, not orchestrated by him or his supporters, if I remember correctly.

But on the subject of people in other countries having reactions other than "OMG that's terrible" in response to last Wednesday (or 9/11 for that matter), of course Chile comes to mind. While I haven't seen it specifically, I could see Chileans not shedding any tears after what the US sponsored coup against Allende forced them to deal with. And please don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting anyone in Chile is wishing thousands of Americans would be disappeared, just that maybe "now Americans have a taste of what it feels like". I know that was a sentiment expressed more than once related to the Russian interference in the 2016 election.

[PeacefulAnarchy]

Here's one from this year of a sitting president solidifying their power through force:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Salv ... cal_crisis

[OldAle1]

Here's one from this year of a sitting president solidifying their power through force:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Salv ... cal_crisis

Oh that's perfect thanks. I mean, not perfect like the perfect phone call or perfect border wall - but that's closer to what's happening in the USA now than most.

[xianjiro]

okay, i kind of remember that - as in I didn't have to read more than the first paragraph and remembered reading an article or two when it happened 11 months ago

but that's a "third world" (taboo word!) "banana republic" (if that isn't taboo, probably should be) run over by criminal gangs and drug cartels, not a "shining beacon of democracy to the world" (and those third world banana republics) LOL

[PeacefulAnarchy]

Here's another: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Peru ... 7%C3%A9tat

They take different forms in different countries depending on established norms and expectations. Sometimes they involve the military, sometimes the courts, sometimes the public. Generally for these types of coups its one branch of government undermining the other to consolidate power, but sometimes they're not labeled coups, especially if successful, because they use long term mechanisms to consolidate power instead of singular actions. There a lot more examples of legislatures ousting (or trying to) presidents than presidents trying to oust legislatures for obvious logistical reasons.

[OldAle1]

okay, i kind of remember that - as in I didn't have to read more than the first paragraph and remembered reading an article or two when it happened 11 months ago

but that's a "third world" (taboo word!) "banana republic" (if that isn't taboo, probably should be) run over by criminal gangs and drug cartels, not a "shining beacon of democracy to the world" (and those third world banana republics) LOL

This is true, but if you compare us only to other large, populous, and/or diverse countries which have an unbroken tradition of free and fair elections, there aren't a lot of places that correlate at all.

[xianjiro]

okay, i kind of remember that - as in I didn't have to read more than the first paragraph and remembered reading an article or two when it happened 11 months ago

but that's a "third world" (taboo word!) "banana republic" (if that isn't taboo, probably should be) run over by criminal gangs and drug cartels, not a "shining beacon of democracy to the world" (and those third world banana republics) LOL

This is true, but if you compare us only to other large, populous, and/or diverse countries which have an unbroken tradition of free and fair elections, there aren't a lot of places that correlate at all.

yeah, exactly. I think some kings of England turned troops and maybe the mob on parliament, but the most famous was the other way around (Cromwell and the interregnum). Of course Germany in the 30s and maybe Italy, but I can't remember all the shit Il Duce did at this point. It seems to be more common with monarchs, but honestly, this is to some extend (what happened here) a function of the new (social) media. Yes, a ruler (elected or hereditary) could have published broadsheets or newspapers or leaflets decrying the legislative bodies (and courts) but would it have happened as quickly? And by quickly, I'm not discounting the years prior to November's election.

I'm trying to remember what happened in Japan before things like Mukden. I'm also not entirely sure that one of the Mexican presidents (around Porfirio Diaz's time - either one or two before or after) didn't do something similar. And of course there's the famous incident involving Trudeau's father setting his wife one some members of parliament (or was that a sexual scandal? )

But in so many countries, a leader doesn't have to set the mob on the legislature since they have the power to dissolve it and call elections. That might be a fundamental difference and why this feels so 'new'. Our president can't close Congress, can't stop them from meeting, can't stop them from impeaching, etc.