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The Political Lounge

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Cippenham
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The Political Lounge

#1

Post by Cippenham » October 11th, 2013, 10:35 pm

mightysparks on Oct 11 2013, 12:16:12 PM wrote:Damn you people, read more!! :P

I read Animal Farm. It was ok. I mean, I enjoyed it and it was impossible to not 'get', but can't say it would be a favourite.

1. The Kingkiller Chronicles, by Patrick Rothfuss
2. Frankenstein, by Mary Shelley
3. The Dark Tower Series, by Stephen King
4. Stranger In A Strange Land, by Robert Heinlein
5. The Foundation Trilogy, by Isaac Asimov
6. American Gods, by Neil Gaiman
7. I, Robot, by Isaac Asimov
8. The Wheel Of Time Series, by Robert Jordan
9. The Stand, by Stephen King
10. The Handmaid's Tale, by Margaret Atwood
Top 100 Science-Fiction, Fantasy BooksShow
http://www.npr.org/2011/08/11/139085843 ... n-fantasy-

books

(note, I am only reading first novels in a series for now)

Read: 21/100

1. The Lord Of The Rings Trilogy, by J.R.R. Tolkien
2. The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy, by Douglas Adams
3. Ender's Game, by Orson Scott Card
4. The Dune Chronicles, by Frank Herbert
5. A Song Of Ice And Fire Series, by George R. R. Martin
6. 1984, by George Orwell
7. Fahrenheit 451, by Ray Bradbury
8. The Foundation Trilogy, by Isaac Asimov
9. Brave New World, by Aldous Huxley
10. American Gods, by Neil Gaiman
11. The Princess Bride, by William Goldman
12. The Wheel Of Time Series, by Robert Jordan
13. Animal Farm, by George Orwell
14. Neuromancer, by William Gibson
15. Watchmen, by Alan Moore
16. I, Robot, by Isaac Asimov
17. Stranger In A Strange Land, by Robert Heinlein
18. The Kingkiller Chronicles, by Patrick Rothfuss
19. Slaughterhouse-Five, by Kurt Vonnegut
20. Frankenstein, by Mary Shelley
21. Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep?, by Philip K. Dick
22. The Handmaid's Tale, by Margaret Atwood
23. The Dark Tower Series, by Stephen King
24. 2001: A Space Odyssey, by Arthur C. Clarke
25. The Stand, by Stephen King
26. Snow Crash, by Neal Stephenson
27. The Martian Chronicles, by Ray Bradbury
28. Cat's Cradle, by Kurt Vonnegut
29. The Sandman Series, by Neil Gaiman
30. A Clockwork Orange, by Anthony Burgess
31. Starship Troopers, by Robert Heinlein
32. Watership Down, by Richard Adams
33. Dragonflight, by Anne McCaffrey
34. The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, by Robert Heinlein
35. A Canticle For Leibowitz, by Walter M. Miller
36. The Time Machine, by H.G. Wells
37. 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea, by Jules Verne
38. Flowers For Algernon, by Daniel Keys
39. The War Of The Worlds, by H.G. Wells
40. The Chronicles Of Amber, by Roger Zelazny
41. The Belgariad, by David Eddings
42. The Mists Of Avalon, by Marion Zimmer Bradley
43. The Mistborn Series, by Brandon Sanderson
44. Ringworld, by Larry Niven
45. The Left Hand Of Darkness, by Ursula K. LeGuin
46. The Silmarillion, by J.R.R. Tolkien
47. The Once And Future King, by T.H. White
48. Neverwhere, by Neil Gaiman
49. Childhood's End, by Arthur C. Clarke
50. Contact, by Carl Sagan
51. The Hyperion Cantos, by Dan Simmons
52. Stardust, by Neil Gaiman
53. Cryptonomicon, by Neal Stephenson
54. World War Z, by Max Brooks
55. The Last Unicorn, by Peter S. Beagle
56. The Forever War, by Joe Haldeman
57. Small Gods, by Terry Pratchett
58. The Chronicles Of Thomas Covenant, The Unbeliever, by Stephen R. Donaldson
59. The Vorkosigan Saga, by Lois McMaster Bujold
60. Going Postal, by Terry Pratchett
61. The Mote In God's Eye, by Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle
62. The Sword Of Truth, by Terry Goodkind
63. The Road, by Cormac McCarthy
64. Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell, by Susanna Clarke
65. I Am Legend, by Richard Matheson
66. The Riftwar Saga, by Raymond E. Feist
67. The Shannara Trilogy, by Terry Brooks
68. The Conan The Barbarian Series, by R.E. Howard
69. The Farseer Trilogy, by Robin Hobb
70. The Time Traveler's Wife, by Audrey Niffenegger
71. The Way Of Kings, by Brandon Sanderson
72. A Journey To The Center Of The Earth, by Jules Verne
73. The Legend Of Drizzt Series, by R.A. Salvatore
74. Old Man's War, by John Scalzi
75. The Diamond Age, by Neil Stephenson
76. Rendezvous With Rama, by Arthur C. Clarke
77. The Kushiel's Legacy Series, by Jacqueline Carey
78. The Dispossessed, by Ursula K. LeGuin
79. Something Wicked This Way Comes, by Ray Bradbury
80. Wicked, by Gregory Maguire
81. The Malazan Book Of The Fallen Series, by Steven Erikson
82. The Eyre Affair, by Jasper Fforde
83. The Culture Series, by Iain M. Banks
84. The Crystal Cave, by Mary Stewart
85. Anathem, by Neal Stephenson
86. The Codex Alera Series, by Jim Butcher
87. The Book Of The New Sun, by Gene Wolfe
88. The Thrawn Trilogy, by Timothy Zahn
89. The Outlander Series, by Diana Gabaldan
90. The Elric Saga, by Michael Moorcock
91. The Illustrated Man, by Ray Bradbury
92. Sunshine, by Robin McKinley
93. A Fire Upon The Deep, by Vernor Vinge
94. The Caves Of Steel, by Isaac Asimov
95. The Mars Trilogy, by Kim Stanley Robinson
96. Lucifer's Hammer, by Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle
97. Doomsday Book, by Connie Willis
98. Perdido Street Station, by China Mieville
99. The Xanth Series, by Piers Anthony
100. The Space Trilogy, by C.S. Lewis
Animal Farm is not just ok its one of the best books ever written, a tremendous satire and allegory of the Russian Revolution.

I first read it or heard it read whilst at school. Its one of the reasons why I have a lifelong hatred of communism, an evil doctrine. Of course Orwell was a democratic socialist but I can see no reason to support that failed philosophy. He thought somehow you can have a kind of socialism but with freedom and elections, but in fact as Hayek and others have demonstrated that is not the case.

A great book by Hayek is The Road to Serfdom demonstrated in the video

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#2

Post by AdamH » October 11th, 2013, 10:45 pm

Of course Orwell was a democratic socialist but I can see no reason to support that failed philosophy.
:lol:

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#3

Post by St. Gloede » October 11th, 2013, 10:46 pm

Cippenham on Oct 11 2013, 04:35:15 PM wrote:I first read it or heard it read whilst at school. Its one of the reasons why I have a lifelong hatred of communism, an evil doctrine. Of course Orwell was a democratic socialist but I can see no reason to support that failed philosophy. He thought somehow you can have a kind of socialism but with freedom and elections, but in fact as Hayek and others have demonstrated that is not the case.
Greetings from the democratic socialist "paradise" known as Norway, considered the best country to live in by the UN - I can'y even recall how many years in a row. Our individual rights are far stronger than those of the US and Britain. You should take a trip to Scandinavia once. It would destroy all the crazy, ridiculous dogma you've eaten up.
Last edited by St. Gloede on October 11th, 2013, 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#4

Post by brokenface » October 12th, 2013, 3:10 pm

St. Gloede on Oct 11 2013, 04:46:49 PM wrote:
Cippenham on Oct 11 2013, 04:35:15 PM wrote:I first read it or heard it read whilst at school. Its one of the reasons why I have a lifelong hatred of communism, an evil doctrine. Of course Orwell was a democratic socialist but I can see no reason to support that failed philosophy. He thought somehow you can have a kind of socialism but with freedom and elections, but in fact as Hayek and others have demonstrated that is not the case.
Greetings from the democratic socialist "paradise" known as Norway, considered the best country to live in by the UN - I can'y even recall how many years in a row. Our individual rights are far stronger than those of the US and Britain. You should take a trip to Scandinavia once. It would destroy all the crazy, ridiculous dogma you've eaten up.
tbf, you're not successful just because you're social democrats, but because you've got a fuckload of natural resources and a small population.

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#5

Post by Cippenham » October 12th, 2013, 3:18 pm

brokenface on Oct 12 2013, 09:10:12 AM wrote:
St. Gloede on Oct 11 2013, 04:46:49 PM wrote:
Cippenham on Oct 11 2013, 04:35:15 PM wrote:I first read it or heard it read whilst at school. Its one of the reasons why I have a lifelong hatred of communism, an evil doctrine. Of course Orwell was a democratic socialist but I can see no reason to support that failed philosophy. He thought somehow you can have a kind of socialism but with freedom and elections, but in fact as Hayek and others have demonstrated that is not the case.
Greetings from the democratic socialist "paradise" known as Norway, considered the best country to live in by the UN - I can'y even recall how many years in a row. Our individual rights are far stronger than those of the US and Britain. You should take a trip to Scandinavia once. It would destroy all the crazy, ridiculous dogma you've eaten up.
tbf, you're not successful just because you're social democrats, but because you've got a fuckload of natural resources and a small population.
:thumbsup: plus they just kicked out the socialists -i have been to Finland which seemed a bit drab and dull but probably to do with the climate
Last edited by Cippenham on October 12th, 2013, 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#6

Post by AdamH » October 12th, 2013, 3:31 pm

brokenface on Oct 12 2013, 09:10:12 AM wrote:
St. Gloede on Oct 11 2013, 04:46:49 PM wrote:
Cippenham on Oct 11 2013, 04:35:15 PM wrote:I first read it or heard it read whilst at school. Its one of the reasons why I have a lifelong hatred of communism, an evil doctrine. Of course Orwell was a democratic socialist but I can see no reason to support that failed philosophy. He thought somehow you can have a kind of socialism but with freedom and elections, but in fact as Hayek and others have demonstrated that is not the case.
Greetings from the democratic socialist "paradise" known as Norway, considered the best country to live in by the UN - I can'y even recall how many years in a row. Our individual rights are far stronger than those of the US and Britain. You should take a trip to Scandinavia once. It would destroy all the crazy, ridiculous dogma you've eaten up.
tbf, you're not successful just because you're social democrats, but because you've got a fuckload of natural resources and a small population.
Sounds like Scotland :whistling:

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#7

Post by AdamH » October 12th, 2013, 3:34 pm

Cippenham on Oct 12 2013, 09:18:18 AM wrote:
brokenface on Oct 12 2013, 09:10:12 AM wrote:
St. Gloede on Oct 11 2013, 04:46:49 PM wrote:Greetings from the democratic socialist "paradise" known as Norway, considered the best country to live in by the UN - I can'y even recall how many years in a row. Our individual rights are far stronger than those of the US and Britain. You should take a trip to Scandinavia once. It would destroy all the crazy, ridiculous dogma you've eaten up.
tbf, you're not successful just because you're social democrats, but because you've got a fuckload of natural resources and a small population.
:thumbsup: plus they just kicked out the socialists -i have been to Finland which seemed a bit drab and dull but probably to do with the climate
The socialists still won the most votes. Can you actually try to back up one of the statements for once i.e. in what way has democratic socialism always failed?

Also, I'd love to know what Finland being a bit drab has to do with politics.

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#8

Post by St. Gloede » October 12th, 2013, 3:56 pm

Cippenham on Oct 12 2013, 09:18:18 AM wrote:
brokenface on Oct 12 2013, 09:10:12 AM wrote:
St. Gloede on Oct 11 2013, 04:46:49 PM wrote:Greetings from the democratic socialist "paradise" known as Norway, considered the best country to live in by the UN - I can'y even recall how many years in a row. Our individual rights are far stronger than those of the US and Britain. You should take a trip to Scandinavia once. It would destroy all the crazy, ridiculous dogma you've eaten up.
tbf, you're not successful just because you're social democrats, but because you've got a fuckload of natural resources and a small population.
:thumbsup: plus they just kicked out the socialists -i have been to Finland which seemed a bit drab and dull but probably to do with the climate
You're very ignorant. The liberals will allow for more private companies, and lighten the taxes on the rich - but they will in no way stop Norway from being a socialistic welfare state. They would never place this as part of their politics as they would never get elected then.

And though Norway is particularly rich, because of natural resources. Sweden, who kept on electing the socialists are doing pretty much just as well, without the huge amount of oil Norway has.

As you have been so brainwashed I doubt any reason can get through to you - But, Norway has been socialistic for a long time, and as you noticed, we just elected liberals - what was that nonsense you said about how this wasn't possible? Ok, let's say it only works for small nations with plenty of resources (which isn't true, but regardless) - then you must consent that democratic socialism works.

Your ignorance here is extremely disturbing though. Scandinavia is doing so brilliantly, enjoying wealth and freedom - and let's note here - had we not had socialism this wealth would not be shared. Look at all the poor countries around the world with just as great, if not more resources than us - but everything belongs to the rich. Think how much better the people would have it if those riches were redistributed. As evidenced, this works in small countries with rich resources.

So, how does the dogma that has brainwashed you, and makes you think democratic socialism demonstrably don't work - explain that a socialistic democratic country (rich on resources, and with a small population) are being declared the best country to live in on objective standards? I'd really like to know. But as all brainwashed ideologs you will probably run from the argument at this point, or not address anything I've said - or address one tiny fraction you can somehow manage to place an argument against and leave the rest.

You're a smart guy, so I hope you read up on this stuff and realize how wrong you have been.

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#9

Post by Cippenham » October 12th, 2013, 4:08 pm

St. Gloede on Oct 12 2013, 09:56:37 AM wrote:
Cippenham on Oct 12 2013, 09:18:18 AM wrote:
brokenface on Oct 12 2013, 09:10:12 AM wrote:tbf, you're not successful just because you're social democrats, but because you've got a fuckload of natural resources and a small population.
:thumbsup: plus they just kicked out the socialists -i have been to Finland which seemed a bit drab and dull but probably to do with the climate
You're very ignorant. The liberals will allow for more private companies, and lighten the taxes on the rich - but they will in no way stop Norway from being a socialistic welfare state. They would never place this as part of their politics as they would never get elected then.

And though Norway is particularly rich, because of natural resources. Sweden, who kept on electing the socialists are doing pretty much just as well, without the huge amount of oil Norway has.

As you have been so brainwashed I doubt any reason can get through to you - But, Norway has been socialistic for a long time, and as you noticed, we just elected liberals - what was that nonsense you said about how this wasn't possible? Ok, let's say it only works for small nations with plenty of resources (which isn't true, but regardless) - then you must consent that democratic socialism works.

Your ignorance here is extremely disturbing though. Scandinavia is doing so brilliantly, enjoying wealth and freedom - and let's note here - had we not had socialism this wealth would not be shared. Look at all the poor countries around the world with just as great, if not more resources than us - but everything belongs to the rich. Think how much better the people would have it if those riches were redistributed. As evidenced, this works in small countries with rich resources.

So, how does the dogma that has brainwashed you, and makes you think democratic socialism demonstrably don't work - explain that a socialistic democratic country (rich on resources, and with a small population) are being declared the best country to live in on objective standards? I'd really like to know. But as all brainwashed ideologs you will probably run from the argument at this point, or not address anything I've said - or address one tiny fraction you can somehow manage to place an argument against and leave the rest.

You're a smart guy, so I hope you read up on this stuff and realize how wrong you have been.
then they are making a serious mistake, if they stick to that consensus, the way ahead is mass privatisation, in the UK we have just even privatised the Post Office.
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#10

Post by AdamH » October 12th, 2013, 4:17 pm

Cippenham, care to reply to any of St. Gloede's points?

Scotland is a social democratic country too. The Tories barely feature here politically (apart from in the UK because of the southern English vote). I'm glad that the Tories have no chance of winning a Scottish election. I suppose we are doomed to failure as well?

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#11

Post by St. Gloede » October 12th, 2013, 4:18 pm

Cippenham on Oct 12 2013, 10:08:15 AM wrote:
St. Gloede on Oct 12 2013, 09:56:37 AM wrote:
Cippenham on Oct 12 2013, 09:18:18 AM wrote: :thumbsup: plus they just kicked out the socialists -i have been to Finland which seemed a bit drab and dull but probably to do with the climate
You're very ignorant. The liberals will allow for more private companies, and lighten the taxes on the rich - but they will in no way stop Norway from being a socialistic welfare state. They would never place this as part of their politics as they would never get elected then.

And though Norway is particularly rich, because of natural resources. Sweden, who kept on electing the socialists are doing pretty much just as well, without the huge amount of oil Norway has.

As you have been so brainwashed I doubt any reason can get through to you - But, Norway has been socialistic for a long time, and as you noticed, we just elected liberals - what was that nonsense you said about how this wasn't possible? Ok, let's say it only works for small nations with plenty of resources (which isn't true, but regardless) - then you must consent that democratic socialism works.

Your ignorance here is extremely disturbing though. Scandinavia is doing so brilliantly, enjoying wealth and freedom - and let's note here - had we not had socialism this wealth would not be shared. Look at all the poor countries around the world with just as great, if not more resources than us - but everything belongs to the rich. Think how much better the people would have it if those riches were redistributed. As evidenced, this works in small countries with rich resources.

So, how does the dogma that has brainwashed you, and makes you think democratic socialism demonstrably don't work - explain that a socialistic democratic country (rich on resources, and with a small population) are being declared the best country to live in on objective standards? I'd really like to know. But as all brainwashed ideologs you will probably run from the argument at this point, or not address anything I've said - or address one tiny fraction you can somehow manage to place an argument against and leave the rest.

You're a smart guy, so I hope you read up on this stuff and realize how wrong you have been.
then they are making a serious mistake, if they stick to that consensus, the way ahead is mass privatisation, in the UK we have just even privatised the Post Office.
But as all brainwashed ideologs you will probably run from the argument at this point, or not address anything I've said - or address one tiny fraction you can somehow manage to place an argument against and leave the rest.
Pretty much. That's not even an argument. "Random country did random act", and not even any explanation as to why this is better. Love how you ignored everything. You can not face your delusions can you?

How did we fail? We are still standing here ... Any explanations for how many of the richest (and happiest too) nations in the world are democratic socialist - when this has been proven to fail? Anything?

Oh, and please explain how it's better for small countries with plenty of resources not to be socialists, when the people are suffering in poverty, while the oil sheiks (for example) roll in billions. Wouldn't democratic socialism letting people be taken care of and given a decent lowest standard of living be preferable?

But no, you will never answer this because pure capitalism (which typically - or rather always - lead to poverty, income inequality, fascism, corporatism - and let's not forget bank crashes) is the only way to go! Like I said before, I hope you come to your senses, and realize how brainwashed you have been. You are saying a system that helps plenty of countries have rich and happy populations has failed FFS. You cannot get more wrong unless you want to start argue that the earth is 6000 years old, and flat.

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#12

Post by Cippenham » October 12th, 2013, 4:54 pm

AdamH on Oct 12 2013, 10:17:16 AM wrote:Cippenham, care to reply to any of St. Gloede's points?

Scotland is a social democratic country too. The Tories barely feature here politically (apart from in the UK because of the southern English vote). I'm glad that the Tories have no chance of winning a Scottish election. I suppose we are doomed to failure as well?
No, sorry to sidetrack this thread. Agree to disagree. I hope Scotland votes for Independence but there is very little chance of that in my opinion, but in the long run it would be better.
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#13

Post by AdamH » October 12th, 2013, 10:31 pm

New thread for politics. Split off from the books thread.

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#14

Post by serri » October 12th, 2013, 10:54 pm

Image

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#15

Post by St. Gloede » October 12th, 2013, 11:11 pm

Cippenham on Oct 12 2013, 10:54:16 AM wrote:
AdamH on Oct 12 2013, 10:17:16 AM wrote:Cippenham, care to reply to any of St. Gloede's points?

Scotland is a social democratic country too. The Tories barely feature here politically (apart from in the UK because of the southern English vote). I'm glad that the Tories have no chance of winning a Scottish election. I suppose we are doomed to failure as well?
No, sorry to sidetrack this thread. Agree to disagree.
Now the thread isn't sidetracked anymore. As I'm rather tired to have to agree to disagree with you on facts when you constantly bring up dogma that's demonstrably wrong, it would be nice if you for once challenged your views a bit. :)

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#16

Post by PeacefulAnarchy » October 12th, 2013, 11:19 pm

You know guys, Cippenham is right. The true path for a free and just society is unbridled capitalism. Just look at a country like Somalia. No country is less burdened by such shitty things as regulation, taxation or social welfare. Truly paradise on earth.

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#17

Post by Kasparius » October 13th, 2013, 2:12 am

Of course and commie scum like Losey, Polonski, Dassin and Trumbo needed to be kicked out of the U.S. to let the true capitalist path of this country take its course.

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#18

Post by SeanMX12 » October 13th, 2013, 2:33 am

I wish U.S. politics were similar to that in Scandinavia. St. Gloede would be strung up if he lived in the south. I have a hard time correcting people on Facebook for claiming Obama is a Kenyan Muslim who shut down the government. Me saying, "No, you're wrong", is another old friend I'll never talk to again.

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#19

Post by Knaldskalle » October 13th, 2013, 4:22 am

SeanMX12 on Oct 12 2013, 08:33:44 PM wrote:I wish U.S. politics were similar to that in Scandinavia. St. Gloede would be strung up if he lived in the south. I have a hard time correcting people on Facebook for claiming Obama is a Kenyan Muslim who shut down the government. Me saying, "No, you're wrong", is another old friend I'll never talk to again.
In Scandinavia even the conservatives and libertarians are basically Socialists. This is due to a long period of Social Democratic rule starting around 1930 and going up to the late 70s (longer in Sweden and Norway), in which the welfare state was implemented over generations. It brought a high standard of living to everyone, for many years ensured jobs for the baby boomer generation and has helped making the Scandinavian countries among the wealthiest in the world (yes, Norway has the oil, but the same argument can't be made for Denmark and Sweden and they are also rich). The welfare state, at least in Denmark, is popular and people don't want to get rid of it. So even the conservatives and libertarians (who aren't really crazy about it) are not going to do more than tweak it here and there. Nobody wants to dismantle it.

Yes, the tax rates are high, among the highest in the world (most Americans I talk to shake their heads in disbelief when I start detailing the taxes and their levels), but the tax money doesn't just go poof, you get a lot of things in return. Free education, to begin with, up to university level. Even private schools receive government subsidies, making them more affordable to everyday people. Free unlimited health care. Strong subsidies for many artistic and cultural endeavors (libraries, museums, theaters, artists). Subsidized child care. Subsidized public housing. Subsidized Unemployment Insurance (and Welfare you can survive on, if you don't have a job). Decent disability pensions. High Social Security Pensions for those over 65. A high-functioning public transit system.

One of the problems is that people in the US confuse the Scandinavian-style Socialism with the Soviet Union, China and other Communist countries who proclaim to have Socialism ("Socialist Republics") and repress their people. In Scandinavia it's all been done democratically (the Scandinavian countries are probably the most stable democracies around). And a lot of the people in the US who rail against the government are themselves beneficiaries of government handouts (I've met people on disability who voted Republican because they thought they paid too much in taxes. Doh!). Basic political ignorance here in the US is rampant, unfortunately.
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#20

Post by Lilarcor » October 13th, 2013, 4:39 am

While we're on the topic, this has been making the rounds lately but it's a great argument for Nordic social democracy from an unlikely source - a pick-up "artist".

Don't Bang Denmark
What’s blocking the pussy flow in Denmark? The country’s excellent social welfare services. Really.

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#21

Post by Knaldskalle » October 13th, 2013, 5:46 am

Lilarcor on Oct 12 2013, 10:39:21 PM wrote:While we're on the topic, this has been making the rounds lately but it's a great argument for Nordic social democracy from an unlikely source - a pick-up "artist".

Don't Bang Denmark
What’s blocking the pussy flow in Denmark? The country’s excellent social welfare services. Really.
Awesome read, thanks Lilacor!
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#22

Post by Cippenham » October 13th, 2013, 2:41 pm

St. Gloede on Oct 12 2013, 09:56:37 AM wrote:
Cippenham on Oct 12 2013, 09:18:18 AM wrote:
brokenface on Oct 12 2013, 09:10:12 AM wrote:tbf, you're not successful just because you're social democrats, but because you've got a fuckload of natural resources and a small population.
:thumbsup: plus they just kicked out the socialists -i have been to Finland which seemed a bit drab and dull but probably to do with the climate
You're very ignorant. The liberals will allow for more private companies, and lighten the taxes on the rich - but they will in no way stop Norway from being a socialistic welfare state. They would never place this as part of their politics as they would never get elected then.

And though Norway is particularly rich, because of natural resources. Sweden, who kept on electing the socialists are doing pretty much just as well, without the huge amount of oil Norway has.

As you have been so brainwashed I doubt any reason can get through to you - But, Norway has been socialistic for a long time, and as you noticed, we just elected liberals - what was that nonsense you said about how this wasn't possible? Ok, let's say it only works for small nations with plenty of resources (which isn't true, but regardless) - then you must consent that democratic socialism works.

Your ignorance here is extremely disturbing though. Scandinavia is doing so brilliantly, enjoying wealth and freedom - and let's note here - had we not had socialism this wealth would not be shared. Look at all the poor countries around the world with just as great, if not more resources than us - but everything belongs to the rich. Think how much better the people would have it if those riches were redistributed. As evidenced, this works in small countries with rich resources.

So, how does the dogma that has brainwashed you, and makes you think democratic socialism demonstrably don't work - explain that a socialistic democratic country (rich on resources, and with a small population) are being declared the best country to live in on objective standards? I'd really like to know. But as all brainwashed ideologs you will probably run from the argument at this point, or not address anything I've said - or address one tiny fraction you can somehow manage to place an argument against and leave the rest.

You're a smart guy, so I hope you read up on this stuff and realize how wrong you have been.
There is a controversial book suggesting that Britain's welfare state, including National Health Service, social security, education, pensions, and housing, has caused tens of thousands of people to live deprived and even depraved lives, and has undermined the very decency that first inspired it. Seems correct to me, and the book is The Welfare State We're in my James Bartholomew.

In Sweden according to this article they realised the error of their ways in 2006. In the early 2000s, according to James Bartholomew, author of the best-selling The Welfare State We’re In (2006), more than one in five Swedes of working-age was receiving some type of benefit. Over 20 percent of the same demographic of Swedes was effectively working “off-the-books” or less than they preferred. Sweden’s tax structure even made it financially advantageous for many to stay on the dole instead of getting a job.
But with a non-Social Democrat coalition government’s election in 2006, Sweden’s reform agenda resumed. On the revenue side, property taxes were scaled back. Income-tax credits allowing larger numbers of middle and lower-income people to keep more of their incomes were introduced. To be fair, the path to tax reform was paved here by the Social Democrats. In 2005, they simply abolished — yes, that’s right, abolished — inheritance taxes. But liberalization wasn’t limited to taxation. Sweden’s new government accelerated privatizations of once-state owned businesses

Full article

http://spectator.org/archives/2011/09/2 ... ocial-demo
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#23

Post by St. Gloede » October 13th, 2013, 2:54 pm

Relevance of anything you just said? Again you dodge every argument. Seriously? Can you address anything said above?

So what if it may be advantagous for Swedes to exploit their system? Isn't Sweden doing well? How are they doing compared to less socialistic nations? Has Sweden failed in some way? Are they in big trouble like the US is? Sweden does not seem to be suffering regardless of exploitation. How has it failed? And how did they realize their error? Are they stopping their democratic socialism?

And how great that there's a controversial book from one source claiming an extraordinary claim that even if true for one nation/one system/arrangement wouldn't even reflect of democratic socialism as a whole.
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#24

Post by metaller » October 13th, 2013, 3:04 pm

I'm from Germany, and although we have a strong social element in our politics, I still wish we would take a good example from the Nordic states, that are quite some steps ahead of us (also, the Netherlands have some promising stuff).

In fact, I'm always a bit baffled how people can dislike a socilaist democratic approach. Free markets and capitalism in general are bound to go against the interest of the broad public if they aren't regulated.
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#25

Post by Cippenham » October 13th, 2013, 3:05 pm

St. Gloede on Oct 13 2013, 08:54:28 AM wrote:Relevance of anything you just said? Again you dodge every argument. Seriously? Can you address anything said above?

So what if it may be advantagous for Swedes to exploit their system? Isn't Sweden doing well? How are they doing compared to less socialistic nations? Has Sweden failed in some way? Are they in big trouble like the US is? Sweden does not seem to be suffering regardless of exploitation. How has it failed? And how did they realize their error? Are they stopping their democratic socialism?

And how great that there's a controversial book from one source claiming an extraordinary claim that even if true for one nation/one system/arrangement wouldn't even reflect of democratic socialism as a whole.
Sweden is doing much better than they were before according to that article. "Unemployment levels fell dramatically from the 10 percent figure of the mid-1990s. Budget-wise, Sweden started running surpluses instead of deficits. The country’s gross public debt declined from a 1994 figure of 78 percent to 35 percent in 2010. Sweden also weathered the Great Recession far better than most other EU states. Sweden’s 2010 growth-rate was 5.5 percent. By comparison, America’s was 2.7 percent."

Current unemployment Sweden 8%

http://countryeconomy.com/unemployment/sweden

Current budget deficit Sweden
http://countryeconomy.com/deficit/sweden

Growth rates per year Sweden 5.5% 2010, 4% 2011

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=sw&v=66
Last edited by Cippenham on October 13th, 2013, 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#26

Post by Cippenham » October 13th, 2013, 3:06 pm

The USA is days away of causing a huge problem in the world:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24511283

US borrowing crisis 'days away' from danger, says World Bank head

This is more important right now than the other matters.

"On Saturday, Jamie Dimon, boss of the American bank JP Morgan said the possible repercussions did not bear thinking about.

"You don't want to know [what would happen]," he said.

"It would ripple through the world economy in a way that you couldn't possibly understand.""
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#27

Post by St. Gloede » October 13th, 2013, 3:11 pm

Cippenham on Oct 13 2013, 09:05:22 AM wrote:
St. Gloede on Oct 13 2013, 08:54:28 AM wrote:Relevance of anything you just said? Again you dodge every argument. Seriously? Can you address anything said above?

So what if it may be advantagous for Swedes to exploit their system? Isn't Sweden doing well? How are they doing compared to less socialistic nations? Has Sweden failed in some way? Are they in big trouble like the US is? Sweden does not seem to be suffering regardless of exploitation. How has it failed? And how did they realize their error? Are they stopping their democratic socialism?

And how great that there's a controversial book from one source claiming an extraordinary claim that even if true for one nation/one system/arrangement wouldn't even reflect of democratic socialism as a whole.
Sweden is doing much better than they were before according to that article. "Unemployment levels fell dramatically from the 10 percent figure of the mid-1990s. Budget-wise, Sweden started running surpluses instead of deficits. The country’s gross public debt declined from a 1994 figure of 78 percent to 35 percent in 2010. Sweden also weathered the Great Recession far better than most other EU states. Sweden’s 2010 growth-rate was 5.5 percent. By comparison, America’s was 2.7 percent."

Current unemployment Sweden 8%

http://countryeconomy.com/unemployment/sweden

Current budget deficit Sweden
http://countryeconomy.com/deficit/sweden
Yes. Like I said, Sweden is doing fabulously with their democratic socialism. Do you admit defeat now?

Your proposition was that democratic socialism has been proven to fail, but here's Sweden, even without the resources Norway has, and they are doing great - even improving. Is this enough to get you to admit you were wrong?

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#28

Post by Cippenham » October 13th, 2013, 3:16 pm

St. Gloede on Oct 13 2013, 09:11:14 AM wrote:
Cippenham on Oct 13 2013, 09:05:22 AM wrote:
St. Gloede on Oct 13 2013, 08:54:28 AM wrote:Relevance of anything you just said? Again you dodge every argument. Seriously? Can you address anything said above?

So what if it may be advantagous for Swedes to exploit their system? Isn't Sweden doing well? How are they doing compared to less socialistic nations? Has Sweden failed in some way? Are they in big trouble like the US is? Sweden does not seem to be suffering regardless of exploitation. How has it failed? And how did they realize their error? Are they stopping their democratic socialism?

And how great that there's a controversial book from one source claiming an extraordinary claim that even if true for one nation/one system/arrangement wouldn't even reflect of democratic socialism as a whole.
Sweden is doing much better than they were before according to that article. "Unemployment levels fell dramatically from the 10 percent figure of the mid-1990s. Budget-wise, Sweden started running surpluses instead of deficits. The country’s gross public debt declined from a 1994 figure of 78 percent to 35 percent in 2010. Sweden also weathered the Great Recession far better than most other EU states. Sweden’s 2010 growth-rate was 5.5 percent. By comparison, America’s was 2.7 percent."

Current unemployment Sweden 8%

http://countryeconomy.com/unemployment/sweden

Current budget deficit Sweden
http://countryeconomy.com/deficit/sweden
Yes. Like I said, Sweden is doing fabulously with their democratic socialism. Do you admit defeat now?

Your proposition was that democratic socialism has been proven to fail, but here's Sweden, even without the resources Norway has, and they are doing great - even improving. Is this enough to get you to admit you were wrong?
Then it depends what you mean by social democracy.
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#29

Post by Lilarcor » October 13th, 2013, 3:22 pm

Thatcher believed and had a policy that unemployment increases competition for jobs which in turn lowers the wages. This is what we're seeing in Britain today I think and in most of Europe. Youth are worse off if they work more than 16 hours a week in the case of UK because they then lose benefits when they work over that magical limit, because the minimum wage is far too low. If the minimum wage was higher and people in general were paid more decently more people would be able to get out of the benefits hellhole, but right now there's no point to it. I doubt that most want to live on benefits but they are practically speaking not given a chance, stuck between two chairs. Less people on benefits would be healthier for the society , I think we call all agree on this. Private industries often only think short-term and in the greedy competition wages are kept low.

So you might think that cutting the welfare thing altogether would solve things but that doesn't solve the low wages problem. People will just be stuck on such low wages that they have little chance of getting out of poverty, even if they work full time jobs due to restrictions put by the government . Even more competition will arrive for the jobs from people who were on full benefits. But these people are basically fucked in such a society. And I'm not even going into the whole deal with temp jobs versus the incresingly rare full time jobs. I think the unhealthy situation in the US right now is a scary example of increasing poverty because these people have no support network.

As for Sweden the situation is somewhat similar but far from as bad, many are stuck in a "poverty" trap (relatively speaking). A lot of young Swedes go to Norway to get a job, and the current unemployment rate for young people (15-24) is around 19% from actual statistics. 35% of the unemployed have been unemployed for more than 6 month.

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#30

Post by St. Gloede » October 13th, 2013, 3:23 pm

Cippenham on Oct 13 2013, 09:16:52 AM wrote:
St. Gloede on Oct 13 2013, 09:11:14 AM wrote:
Cippenham on Oct 13 2013, 09:05:22 AM wrote:Sweden is doing much better than they were before according to that article. "Unemployment levels fell dramatically from the 10 percent figure of the mid-1990s. Budget-wise, Sweden started running surpluses instead of deficits. The country’s gross public debt declined from a 1994 figure of 78 percent to 35 percent in 2010. Sweden also weathered the Great Recession far better than most other EU states. Sweden’s 2010 growth-rate was 5.5 percent. By comparison, America’s was 2.7 percent."

Current unemployment Sweden 8%

http://countryeconomy.com/unemployment/sweden

Current budget deficit Sweden
http://countryeconomy.com/deficit/sweden
Yes. Like I said, Sweden is doing fabulously with their democratic socialism. Do you admit defeat now?

Your proposition was that democratic socialism has been proven to fail, but here's Sweden, even without the resources Norway has, and they are doing great - even improving. Is this enough to get you to admit you were wrong?
Then it depends what you mean by social democracy.
???

Sweden are socialist democrats. As left as Norway, if not more. And unlike Norway they just elected the left wing again ... So?

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#31

Post by serri » October 13th, 2013, 9:49 pm

Image
Image

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#32

Post by serri » October 13th, 2013, 10:33 pm

In the year 1930, John Maynard Keynes predicted that, by century’s end, technology would have advanced sufficiently that countries like Great Britain or the United States would have achieved a 15-hour work week. There’s every reason to believe he was right.
Even more perverse, there seems to be a broad sense that this is the way things should be. This is one of the secret strengths of right-wing populism. You can see it when tabloids whip up resentment against tube workers for paralysing London during contract disputes: the very fact that tube workers can paralyse London shows that their work is actually necessary, but this seems to be precisely what annoys people. It’s even clearer in the US, where Republicans have had remarkable success mobilizing resentment against school teachers, or auto workers (and not, significantly, against the school administrators or auto industry managers who actually cause the problems) for their supposedly bloated wages and benefits. It’s as if they are being told “but you get to teach children! Or make cars! You get to have real jobs! And on top of that you have the nerve to also expect middle-class pensions and health care?”
http://www.strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/

So what do you guys do for a living? :P

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#33

Post by metaller » October 14th, 2013, 11:23 am

Serriform on Oct 13 2013, 04:33:45 PM wrote:
In the year 1930, John Maynard Keynes predicted that, by century’s end, technology would have advanced sufficiently that countries like Great Britain or the United States would have achieved a 15-hour work week. There’s every reason to believe he was right.
Even more perverse, there seems to be a broad sense that this is the way things should be. This is one of the secret strengths of right-wing populism. You can see it when tabloids whip up resentment against tube workers for paralysing London during contract disputes: the very fact that tube workers can paralyse London shows that their work is actually necessary, but this seems to be precisely what annoys people. It’s even clearer in the US, where Republicans have had remarkable success mobilizing resentment against school teachers, or auto workers (and not, significantly, against the school administrators or auto industry managers who actually cause the problems) for their supposedly bloated wages and benefits. It’s as if they are being told “but you get to teach children! Or make cars! You get to have real jobs! And on top of that you have the nerve to also expect middle-class pensions and health care?”
http://www.strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/

So what do you guys do for a living? :P
A nice read! And I do a lot of bullshit for a living, but I also like how this bullshit is conducted.
Still if I got the option to only work 20 hours a week (50% of my official work time) I would gladly take it and likely I will get just as much work done as I do now...
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#34

Post by serri » October 14th, 2013, 2:36 pm

So far the only jobs I've held have been a minimum wage retail one, which I thought was ok but can see how working two full time ones would be the worst thing in the world, and a sort of computer science odd jobs type thing at a biology lab where I could strike a balance between when I had time to work and when they needed something from me. The latter was very much ideal, and felt like a lot less bullshit than the former.

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#35

Post by Dolwphin » October 14th, 2013, 7:02 pm

Top 100|Top 250

Member of the Experimental Mafia.

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#36

Post by Dolwphin » October 14th, 2013, 7:08 pm

Top 100|Top 250

Member of the Experimental Mafia.


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#38

Post by Kasparius » October 14th, 2013, 7:36 pm

I actually know the guy who produces these segments, fun guy.

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#39

Post by AdamH » October 14th, 2013, 8:48 pm

Pleasing article.

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#40

Post by XxXApathy420XxX » October 14th, 2013, 10:58 pm

My father didn’t have the skill of a professional cameraman. The result? Avant-garde cinema.

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