You claim that objectivity and logical arguments is possible. This is very problematic because objective truth is a mythology. Behind such universality always lies toxic white supremacy. Check your privilege! Swedes are more oppressed than Norwegians, thus I should be given interpretive precedence about this subject. Sorry I don't make the rules!St. Gloede wrote: ↑September 9th, 2020, 10:58 pmYou just contradicted yourself - and to an extreme extent.Dolwphin wrote: ↑September 9th, 2020, 9:46 pmI already said I don't vote strategically; unless the stakes would actually be existential. You can notify me when this Sam Harris hypothetical becomes reality. It is not that relevant who "wins" of the two wings of the same party. If you are deeply invested in that spectacle that would obviously change things. Change won't happen because a 3rd party magically "wins" the election either. But you would voting for your preferred candidate, and that could theoretically have positive effects over time.St. Gloede wrote: ↑September 9th, 2020, 6:55 amI don't undersatand your argument, Dolwphin.
Could you clarify, please.
From your reply to Knaldskalle it seems that you actually do support electoral politics and see it as an avenue for change, which very much confuses me, and seems to leave only one option: that you genuinly believe a third party can win.
Is that the case?
If you were in Sweden I would of course agree, you can vote your conscience, so can I, and our parties will get 4-10% of the vote (hopefully more in the future) and have an impact - but this cannot happen in the US. Do you have reason to believe it can?
Secondly, I already showcased how this argument is wrong, as you can primary Dems with better candidates, a strategy that is working (unlike any Green party strategy). Working within the Democratic party has shifted the overton window (which you opened up with stating was one of your main concerns) and has gotten left-wing/left-leaning candidates to the congress and the senate. So you are not closing electoral politics as an avenue of change, you are opening this avenue. It is the other way around.
I already countered your talking points above - incremental changes are not instantly removed, Biden - while yes, an evil, will lead to improvement as opposed to less decay, i.e. those voting for Biden will not be voting for less decay, they will be voting for actual improvements to society.
Please clarify what you believe voting third party can achieve in the US.
The Overtone Window has moved (for now) and some (relatively) leftist Democrats from NY have been elected to Congress. I can see why you think this is positive and encouraging.
I see you are riding with Biden. SAD!
Why does it have to achieve anything? (Everybody stay away from the vicinity of Gloede's hospital. He is about to save five precious lives!) Also: What leverage/power does leftist have to pressure Democrats to enact a globally centrist policy agenda if we always offer our unconditional support?
This is what you wrote yesterday:
You made claims here that seemed to matter to you - I made the case you were wrong and showcased why - you ignored it and replied with the above. A little lazy, no?I think there is validity to the idea of harm reduction. But there could be negative consequences over time too, such a voting strategy won't stop the decay -- you are closing the avenue of electoral politics as a vehicle for fundamental change.
You make the case here that the outcome of voting is irrelevant to you, - you then throw in a material claim to back up your choice based on outcome - which I already discredited above - i.e. that the left can get leverage in not voting. This is simply false, as demonstrated earlier - and made even more ridiculous by you consistently ignoring the fact that you can vote for good platforms in the primaries.
To be fair, most of what you say seems to be a joke, and as neither of us are Americans, neither of us will voke, and this is only a philosophical conversation of no real relevance, I suppose that is ok.
Though if you were in the US and refused to vote for possible positive changes saving thousands of lives, and for no reason whatsoever, that would be pretty sad.
That said, I am very happy I do not need to be ridin' with Biden - my sympathies to all of the US.
Also, didn't the great logicians of antiquity support SLAVERY and PEDOPHILIA ? Hm, doesn't sound like very good ideas to me.