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British Politics Lounge

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St. Gloede
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Re: British Politics Lounge

#1001

Post by St. Gloede » July 16th, 2018, 7:31 pm

This is the British Politics Lounge so if you guys want to rehash the US election, again, please take it to the usual place. ;)

As for Brexit, I am in the UK right now and key Tory politicians are rejecting May's blueprint. Some are asking for a new vote. But people have since it started, and a few more loud voices will likely not change the course.

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#1002

Post by RBG » July 16th, 2018, 7:34 pm

we've hashed that election enough imo. if you vote for racists and misogynists, you're racists and misogynists. full stop

so the UK could brexit and then re enter the EU? is that plausible? going off what onderhond said
I think UK's best bet it to get back in as quickly as possible once Brexit has been completed?
as we're their closest ally i'd say they're in big trouble. no one can tell what trump will do next. thx for answering btw

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#1003

Post by St. Gloede » July 16th, 2018, 7:47 pm

Technically they could, but would be strange. I believe they can technically cancel Brexit any time without legal repercussions, at least that is how the UK narrative seems to be presenting it, but I am not well read up here.

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#1004

Post by flaiky » July 16th, 2018, 8:59 pm

RBG wrote:
July 16th, 2018, 7:21 pm
anyway can we stop arguing about hillary now and discuss if there's a chance to unbrexit like i originally asked. we can't undo our election

i saw some support for it on twitter. what are the chances. not good i imagine :(
Today a senior cabinet member seriously proposed a second referendum, but Treeza shut it down immediately. And I don't think there's any way she would "cancel" Brexit without another public vote in favour. Brexiteers are very loud and very stubborn; they won't even accept any effort at a compromise and are causing a complete raucous at her current proposal. Her hands are completely tied (and you can bet no-one else is willing to step up and try to handle this mess).

The agonising thing is that okay 51.9% of voters (26% of the population) wanted this to happen anyway. I strongly believe it should only be possible to make such a huge change when there's a clear majority in favour of it (at least 55%, ideally 60%).

As for the possibility of rejoining the EU: I'm pretty sure Brussels have made clear it's not really an option, at least not for a long time. They don't want us approaching this casually and having that as a back-up option. It would also be completely ridiculous considering all the time and money we're spending on leaving, and all the time and money that would have to be spent re-arranging membership.

Edit: Oops, "ex senior cabinet minister". Hard to keep on top of all these resignations. :rolleyes:

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#1005

Post by RBG » July 26th, 2018, 3:34 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... y-party-eu

britain has a women's equality party :wub:

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#1006

Post by flaiky » August 13th, 2018, 10:13 pm

Tasty bit of international beef:


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#1007

Post by xianjiro » August 14th, 2018, 12:28 am

obviously a fake tweet since the account isn't @therealjeremycorbyn, right?

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#1008

Post by flaiky » August 14th, 2018, 9:00 am

The media are absolutely laying into Jez and this absurd scandal, any opportunity they get to try and force him out. :finger:

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#1009

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » August 14th, 2018, 9:31 am

Israel under Netanyahu deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as the Germany of the National Socialists. That's the harsh reality evident to me. If Corbyn did indeed voice his concerns at the similarities (as I think he clearly did), it's a position that should be examined honestly in the media and give rise to discussions on uncomfortable issues of Jewish supremacy and suppression of Bedouin, Palestinians, and other groups in contested lands. Looking at the changes in the map over the 70 years one can only come to one conclusion. Corbyn is brave to highlight that. I admire him on this issue.
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#1010

Post by flaiky » August 14th, 2018, 1:34 pm

Indeed, Roger, and the idea that criticising the state of Israel translates to antisemitism is ridiculous. Is everyone who attacks Trump anti-Christian? Everyone who attacks Assad an Islamophobe?

Again, it's just the establishment clinging on to any potential window for criticism and trying to generate enough controversy that he's forced to resign. They've never wanted him in power. As for the social media warriors, it's wonderfully ironic that those feigning outrage now, purely because they hate Corbyn's politics, are far more prone to such prejudices and broad generalisations than Jez would ever be.

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#1011

Post by ChrisReynolds » August 14th, 2018, 2:38 pm

Netanyahu's a bad guy, but the criticism of Corbyn is completely correct. He went to a memorial service for the terrorists behind the Black September massacre and laid a wreath on their grave to honour them. Then he lied about it. Now pictures have emerged and he's trying out a new lie that he was there at the ceremony but somehow not involved. It all fits into a pattern of him giving backing to terrorists and antisemites and lying about it. He is not fit to be an MP, let alone the leader of the country. I'm hoping this scandal will finally trigger some sort of split in the party.

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#1012

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » August 14th, 2018, 3:24 pm

ChrisReynolds wrote:
August 14th, 2018, 2:38 pm
Netanyahu's a bad guy, but the criticism of Corbyn is completely correct. He went to a memorial service for the terrorists behind the Black September massacre and laid a wreath on their grave to honour them. Then he lied about it. Now pictures have emerged and he's trying out a new lie that he was there at the ceremony but somehow not involved. It all fits into a pattern of him giving backing to terrorists and antisemites and lying about it. He is not fit to be an MP, let alone the leader of the country. I'm hoping this scandal will finally trigger some sort of split in the party.
I wasn't aware of this Black September development. It does sound rather troubling. It is though worth bearing in mind that Mossad killed several innocent people in their retributions. I don't know what fuelled Corbyn's involvement in such a commemoration but I'll refrain from pejorative assumptions for now.
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#1013

Post by St. Gloede » August 14th, 2018, 4:04 pm

^^

I watched this concerning the events earlier, and if true I don't see the issue:



He went to a memorial service for people who had died in the Palestinian conflict on the invitation of the Palestinian president. It was primarily focused on 43 members of the Palestinian Government in exile, who were killed during a bombing in the 80s, but others were honored as well. The event to easy the internal conflict between palestinian groups and bring them together - which of course meant that groups which had committed violence were present.

I don't see any issue with this to be honest, and agree with the pro-Corbyn commentaror, it speaks a lot to his character that he cared to go.

This really seems like another ridiculous and dishonest attempt to slander him.

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#1014

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » August 14th, 2018, 4:12 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
August 14th, 2018, 4:04 pm
^^

I watched this concerning the events earlier, and if true I don't see the issue:



He went to a memorial service for people who had died in the Palestinian conflict on the invitation of the Palestinian president. It was primarily focused on 43 members of the Palestinian Government in exile, who were killed during a bombing in the 80s, but others were honored as well. The event to easy the internal conflict between palestinian groups and bring them together - which of course meant that groups which had committed violence were present.

I don't see any issue with this to be honest, and agree with the pro-Corbyn commentaror, it speaks a lot to his character that he cared to go.

This really seems like another ridiculous and dishonest attempt to slander him.
Thanks for that. Very interesting and informative.
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#1015

Post by flaiky » August 14th, 2018, 4:47 pm

ChrisReynolds wrote:
August 14th, 2018, 2:38 pm
Netanyahu's a bad guy, but the criticism of Corbyn is completely correct. He went to a memorial service for the terrorists behind the Black September massacre and laid a wreath on their grave to honour them. Then he lied about it. Now pictures have emerged and he's trying out a new lie that he was there at the ceremony but somehow not involved. It all fits into a pattern of him giving backing to terrorists and antisemites and lying about it. He is not fit to be an MP, let alone the leader of the country. I'm hoping this scandal will finally trigger some sort of split in the party.
He was there as part of a wider event that was attended by many other international figures, all in the aim of promoting peace in the region. We don't even know 100% that the wreath in "the picture" is the one that was laid for the terrorists; if it was, for all we know he didn't entirely understand what that particular ceremony was for (ie, maybe it was all conducted in Arabic). I 100% trust that he wouldn't intentionally honor terrorists, that is clearly against his character. The media have desperately been searching for anything to support and further this antisemitism controversy, since it's their best shot at outing him, and some clever person dug up this photo and turned it into fake news. What they don't bother to show you is pictures of him attending holocaust memorial events, which he's also done many times...

As for your last line: you're entitled to think what you like about him as leader of the party, but he's been my MP my entire life and everyone around here loves him - compassionate and committed to his constituents. Even since his promotion, when he's obviously been insanely busy, he's never abandoned us and still comes to local events. Just a couple of weeks ago he was at the little community centre I work at and making a point to talk to local people. He's a fantastic MP.

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#1016

Post by xianjiro » August 14th, 2018, 5:47 pm

Won't be long now and we'll have to wonder if such videos might be 'deep fakes.' What will the 'post news' world really be like?

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#1017

Post by ChrisReynolds » August 15th, 2018, 1:30 pm

flaiky wrote:
August 14th, 2018, 4:47 pm
ChrisReynolds wrote:
August 14th, 2018, 2:38 pm
Netanyahu's a bad guy, but the criticism of Corbyn is completely correct. He went to a memorial service for the terrorists behind the Black September massacre and laid a wreath on their grave to honour them. Then he lied about it. Now pictures have emerged and he's trying out a new lie that he was there at the ceremony but somehow not involved. It all fits into a pattern of him giving backing to terrorists and antisemites and lying about it. He is not fit to be an MP, let alone the leader of the country. I'm hoping this scandal will finally trigger some sort of split in the party.
He was there as part of a wider event that was attended by many other international figures, all in the aim of promoting peace in the region. We don't even know 100% that the wreath in "the picture" is the one that was laid for the terrorists; if it was, for all we know he didn't entirely understand what that particular ceremony was for (ie, maybe it was all conducted in Arabic). I 100% trust that he wouldn't intentionally honor terrorists, that is clearly against his character. The media have desperately been searching for anything to support and further this antisemitism controversy, since it's their best shot at outing him, and some clever person dug up this photo and turned it into fake news. What they don't bother to show you is pictures of him attending holocaust memorial events, which he's also done many times...

As for your last line: you're entitled to think what you like about him as leader of the party, but he's been my MP my entire life and everyone around here loves him - compassionate and committed to his constituents. Even since his promotion, when he's obviously been insanely busy, he's never abandoned us and still comes to local events. Just a couple of weeks ago he was at the little community centre I work at and making a point to talk to local people. He's a fantastic MP.
He's my MP too. You also live in Islington North? He used to live down the road from me. I have never thought him to be a good MP, and he totally does honour terrorists, often hanging around with them and even inviting them to parliament. He's got a lot of PR about being a nice caring guy, and he talks a good talk but his actions don't bear out his words.

Why do you consider this fake news? they have photos of him in the cemetery holding a wreath and praying in front of the graves of Black September members, and he knows this because he wrote in the Morning Star at the time that he was commemorating those "killed by Mossad agents in Paris in 1991" - the year was actually 1992, but he must have been aware of why Mossad assassinated these people.

Incidentally, I think this is far from the end of the damaging material the newspapers and Tory researchers have on Corbyn. At the last election nobody seemed to do any research on his activities, all I remember was a video of him condemning NATO and bringing up his meetings with the IRA. If the Tories replace May with a leader who is even halfway competent and don't release another bizarre manifesto they'll be able to hammer him on this stuff. I just hope it's not Boris.

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#1018

Post by St. Gloede » August 15th, 2018, 4:32 pm


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#1019

Post by matthewscott8 » August 15th, 2018, 5:52 pm

The Corbyn thing is very difficult. Flaiky, you're describing his as compassionate guy, and I think that's right. But I don't necessarily see compassion as a binary thing, a person is not either compassionate or heartless i.e. you can definitely reserve compassion for an in group and not an out group (family vs not family, own gender vs other genders, own race vs different race, own faction vs other faction). Also you can justify massacres on the basis that you want to build a more compassionate society (explicit aim of Stalinism). You can take a guy like Pope Francis for example, who has dedicated his life to others very explicitly, justifying the attacks at Charlie Hebdo. Humans are very complicated and compassion and rage can sit side by side in us. Actually some of the people I've known in my life who have been the most personally and politically compassionate have occasionally voiced the most blood-curdling opinions I've ever heard.

Corbyn has probably been very principled over the anti-Semitism thing. One of the clauses the Labour Party haven't signed up to in the international definition of Anti-Semitism is that comparing Israel to the Nazi state is Anti-Semitic. I would not personally go far as to make that comparison, mainly because it's not helpful, and also because of scale (although is someone more culpable for running a concentration camp that killed a million than a school shooter who kills 20 and would have killed the whole world if they could have, scale is not necessarily a moral measure). However Israel has definitely presided over very deliberate atrocities. I think comparing Israel to the Nazi state is an exaggeration, but it's not Anti-Semitic, not in my view anyway. I watched footage from a drone flight over Gaza, and had to hold back the tears seeing the absolutely ludicrous scale of the destruction there, which is completely unjustified.

There's also an asymmetry in treatment, which reminds me of the famous panning Galloway gave the US congress, "I have met Saddam Hussein exactly the same number of times as Donald Rumsfeld met him. The difference is Donald Rumsfeld met him to sell him guns and to give him maps the better to target those guns. I met him to try and bring about an end to sanctions, suffering and war, and on the second of the two occasions, I met him to try and persuade him to let Dr Hans Blix and the United Nations weapons inspectors back into the country - a rather better use of two meetings with Saddam Hussein than your own Secretary of State for Defence made of his."

Essentially in the UK as a politician you can be completely pro-Israel and receive no criticism whatsoever. But Corbyn being pro-Palestinian isn't acceptable. His attendance at this event in Tunis is pretty suss, I don't buy his explanation for it, unless he is super-naive, which is a different problem. On the other hand I do sympathise with the idea that he probably didn't have a clue who were buried in all those graves, particularly given he doesn't read Arabic.

Whilst I have some sympathies with Corbyn, as he is generally a nice guy, and is one of our only politicians with principles I have worried about him being elected. I'm torn in that the dream of socialism is very beautiful, and also workers rights are being eroded in this country and money is flowing to capital owners and not workers completely disproportionately. But I definitely believe that the state is the antithesis of love, and don't welcome the idea of a big intrusive state. Also any experience I've ever had of localism or community organisation has been pretty negative and socialist governments with the same ideas as him crippled the country. He was pro "helicopter money" / "quantitative easing for the people" which would be an absolute disaster and is an economically illiterate idea, quantitative easing was a liquidity swap, the banks gave long term money in the form of bonds, for short term money to the Bank of England, QE for the people is not a liquidity swap, it would be a disaster that would cause inflation by increasing the supply of money in the real economy. If there was a general election now I might have to spoil my ballot paper.

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#1020

Post by flaiky » August 15th, 2018, 9:08 pm

ChrisReynolds wrote:
August 15th, 2018, 1:30 pm
He's my MP too. You also live in Islington North? He used to live down the road from me. I have never thought him to be a good MP, and he totally does honour terrorists, often hanging around with them and even inviting them to parliament. He's got a lot of PR about being a nice caring guy, and he talks a good talk but his actions don't bear out his words.

Why do you consider this fake news? they have photos of him in the cemetery holding a wreath and praying in front of the graves of Black September members, and he knows this because he wrote in the Morning Star at the time that he was commemorating those "killed by Mossad agents in Paris in 1991" - the year was actually 1992, but he must have been aware of why Mossad assassinated these people.

Incidentally, I think this is far from the end of the damaging material the newspapers and Tory researchers have on Corbyn. At the last election nobody seemed to do any research on his activities, all I remember was a video of him condemning NATO and bringing up his meetings with the IRA. If the Tories replace May with a leader who is even halfway competent and don't release another bizarre manifesto they'll be able to hammer him on this stuff. I just hope it's not Boris.
Wow, small world. :huh: He used to live very near me too, I went to school with his kids at a local comprehensive (not in my year, but we were all there at the same time)...Maybe we're neighbours?! Anyway, have you ever had to get direct help from him? Because aside from him regularly being present in the area, I've heard several stories from people who were deeply impressed by his help with housing, getting school places, etc. He's hands-on and you really don't hear that about many MPs.

Yesterday afternoon I thought it was fake news because I thought there was no evidence that the picture/wreath was definitely from the ceremony related to the terrorists, or he could have been unaware exactly what was going on. I've read more about the story now, with much more detail coming out, and that's no longer exactly why I think the whole thing is bullshit but I certainly still think it's bullshit. Corbyn was there to commemorate the 1985 victims; that's undeniable because it was the anniversary date. Many of those victims are buried and/or commemorated at the cemetery and that's what initially took him there: the fact that the Daily Fail says he's 15 feet away from the memorial in the wreath picture is meaningless, because in his 2014 account - which you quoted - he mentions first going to the 1985 graves and then other graves. It seems obvious to me that there's just no picture of the first part. Anyway, so he clearly ended up at these other graves, but while the media has been freely and sneakily describing those men as being "behind the Munich massacre", none of the actual perpetrators are buried there - they are all in Libya - and the men in the graves were actually high ranking PLO leaders. The degree to which they were involved in Black September is speculated, not a certain fact, and one of these men eventually became significant in moving the PLO away from terrorism. As the great Owen Jones said in this great article, the men had controversial histories similar to Yassar Arafat or Ariel Sharon, both of whom were freely mourned by world leaders.

Even aside from this, Corbyn clearly didn't know exactly who was in the graves as his 2014 account is confused: to quote another Guardian article, "He wrote that they were killed in Paris, when in fact it was Tunis. He said they were killed by Mossad agents, when in fact they were killed by a rival Palestinian faction. (It’s possible Corbyn was confusing those three with a fourth man, Atef Bsesio, also allegedly linked to Munich and also buried in that same cemetery: he was reportedly killed by Mossad agents in Paris – though that was in 1992, not 1991.)" That same article suggests, "[Corbyn] has long been a devoted supporter of the Palestinians and on that day in 2014 he was not going to get too hung up on the exact details of this plaque or that grave, which were anyway opaque to him as a non-speaker of Arabic: what mattered was standing in solidarity with his Palestinian friends." If you ask me, that sounds like the perfect explanation for what happened. He was a little careless, maybe, but his reasons for being there were good, and an intentional terrorist mourner? No way.

To say he 'often hangs around with terrorists' seems incredibly exaggerated. He has always taken a strong stance on the Palestine and Northern Ireland issues, and since he is a man of action, not just words (I'm really surprised you see this as the opposite?), he has inevitably brushed shoulders with controversial figures. But when it comes down to it, he's against war and militarism of any sort, it's absolutely core to his beliefs. I feel like that's so obvious...

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#1021

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » August 16th, 2018, 2:47 am

Wonderful discussion and exchange. I've gleaned more in 5-10 minutes from that than I would have from an hour of biased news blather.
That's all, folks!

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#1022

Post by ChrisReynolds » August 17th, 2018, 4:45 pm

flaiky wrote:
August 15th, 2018, 9:08 pm
Yesterday afternoon I thought it was fake news because I thought there was no evidence that the picture/wreath was definitely from the ceremony related to the terrorists, or he could have been unaware exactly what was going on. I've read more about the story now, with much more detail coming out, and that's no longer exactly why I think the whole thing is bullshit but I certainly still think it's bullshit. Corbyn was there to commemorate the 1985 victims; that's undeniable because it was the anniversary date. Many of those victims are buried and/or commemorated at the cemetery and that's what initially took him there: the fact that the Daily Fail says he's 15 feet away from the memorial in the wreath picture is meaningless, because in his 2014 account - which you quoted - he mentions first going to the 1985 graves and then other graves. It seems obvious to me that there's just no picture of the first part. Anyway, so he clearly ended up at these other graves, but while the media has been freely and sneakily describing those men as being "behind the Munich massacre", none of the actual perpetrators are buried there - they are all in Libya - and the men in the graves were actually high ranking PLO leaders. The degree to which they were involved in Black September is speculated, not a certain fact, and one of these men eventually became significant in moving the PLO away from terrorism. As the great Owen Jones said in this great article, the men had controversial histories similar to Yassar Arafat or Ariel Sharon, both of whom were freely mourned by world leaders.

Even aside from this, Corbyn clearly didn't know exactly who was in the graves as his 2014 account is confused: to quote another Guardian article, "He wrote that they were killed in Paris, when in fact it was Tunis. He said they were killed by Mossad agents, when in fact they were killed by a rival Palestinian faction. (It’s possible Corbyn was confusing those three with a fourth man, Atef Bsesio, also allegedly linked to Munich and also buried in that same cemetery: he was reportedly killed by Mossad agents in Paris – though that was in 1992, not 1991.)" That same article suggests, "[Corbyn] has long been a devoted supporter of the Palestinians and on that day in 2014 he was not going to get too hung up on the exact details of this plaque or that grave, which were anyway opaque to him as a non-speaker of Arabic: what mattered was standing in solidarity with his Palestinian friends." If you ask me, that sounds like the perfect explanation for what happened. He was a little careless, maybe, but his reasons for being there were good, and an intentional terrorist mourner? No way.

To say he 'often hangs around with terrorists' seems incredibly exaggerated. He has always taken a strong stance on the Palestine and Northern Ireland issues, and since he is a man of action, not just words (I'm really surprised you see this as the opposite?), he has inevitably brushed shoulders with controversial figures. But when it comes down to it, he's against war and militarism of any sort, it's absolutely core to his beliefs. I feel like that's so obvious...
There are actually pictures of the first part of the ceremony in the Channel 4 fact check https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... wreath-row at the monument to the people killed in the Israeli airstrike, so as you say and Corbyn originally implies there seem to have been two parts to the ceremony, laying one wreath at the monument and then moving on to the cemetery to lay another.

I don't think we're going to be able to come to an agreement on this, especially as you describe the media as being free and sneaky in linking Atef Bseiso and Salah Khalaf (whose graves were where the wreath is being laid) to the Munich attack. The line that the perpetrators are buried in Libya is disingenuous because while Beseiso and Khalaf were not actually at the attack, Bseiso is believed to have been the planner of the attack and Khalaf was the founder of Black September. Corbyn does seem to be confused about the dates, but to me it seems like at the least he knew these people were involved in terrorism against Israel but his support for the Palestinian cause means that he doesn't mind. Same for when he attends events in Northern Ireland or invites members of terrorist groups' political wings to parliament.
flaiky wrote:
August 15th, 2018, 9:08 pm
To say he 'often hangs around with terrorists' seems incredibly exaggerated. He has always taken a strong stance on the Palestine and Northern Ireland issues, and since he is a man of action, not just words (I'm really surprised you see this as the opposite?), he has inevitably brushed shoulders with controversial figures. But when it comes down to it, he's against war and militarism of any sort, it's absolutely core to his beliefs. I feel like that's so obvious...
I don't think it's exaggerated. He genuinely does it. That's why the newspapers can publish pictures of him standing with them every day. I'm sure there are files full of these embarrassing photos that are being leaked one by one for maximum effect. Today, Corbyn's special guest terrorist friend is Leila Khaled, for example. I can't accept the idea that he's against war and militarism because he seems to support people involved in perpetuating it. If, along with members of Palestinian terror organisations and IRA members, he'd also been speaking with Zionist Nationalists and Ulster Unionists I could believe that he was attempting some sort of dialogue, but no, it's always just one side. He refuses to share platforms with Tory politicians when they share a common aim, but he doesn't mind sharing platforms with killers and hijackers?

I see him as a man of words, not action, because he seems unwilling to commit to actions or achieve anything. He meets with the IRA for years, but real peace is achieved by the Good Friday agreement put forward by his political enemies within the Labour party. He failed to take his party's position against Brexit during the referendum, then he's failed to challenge Brexit in any meaningful way. And the row about antisemitism within the Labour party has been rumbling on for two years without Corbyn taking any action against it. He's been a backbencher all his political life before becoming leader, so he's never had to be in charge of any of the affairs of state or have roles in getting any legislation on the books. In fact, the only time he springs into life is during leadership campaigns, which by their definition just involve talking about things he'd do. And yet... he still lost the last election despite Theresa May giving the worst election campaign performance of any leader in the last century. He has strong support from his base, but his approval rating is around 20% and Theresa May is far ahead of him in polls on who'd make the best PM (and Don't Know is far ahead of both of them). A lot of the negative press Corbyn keeps getting is priced in by now, so it doesn't hurt his support when new stories get released, but I guarantee that when the Tories get a new leader they will leap ahead in popularity. Meanwhile we have Corbyn's inner circle seizing control of the Labour party and the prospect of deselecting MPs who don't support Corbyn.

Incidentally, I haven't had to ask for help from him as member of his constituency. I can accept that he does a good job in this, but I would have thought this would apply to many MPs.

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#1023

Post by RBG » August 28th, 2018, 1:47 am

hey brexiteers

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rexit-plot
Tom Watson, the deputy leader of the Labour party, has called on the government to confirm if the National Crime Agency is looking into whether there was Russian interference in the EU referendum.

Watson suggested the vote may have been “stolen” and said that if the NCA was not investigating then a full public inquiry with powers similar to those of the US special counsel Robert Mueller must be held. Mueller is investigating Russian interference into the 2016 US presidential election.

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#1024

Post by Lakigigar » August 28th, 2018, 2:31 am

RogerTheMovieManiac88 wrote:
August 14th, 2018, 9:31 am
Israel under Netanyahu deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as the Germany of the National Socialists. That's the harsh reality evident to me. If Corbyn did indeed voice his concerns at the similarities (as I think he clearly did), it's a position that should be examined honestly in the media and give rise to discussions on uncomfortable issues of Jewish supremacy and suppression of Bedouin, Palestinians, and other groups in contested lands. Looking at the changes in the map over the 70 years one can only come to one conclusion. Corbyn is brave to highlight that. I admire him on this issue.
You're absolutely right!

Corbyn might be one of my favourite European politicians.

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#1025

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » September 4th, 2018, 4:33 pm

A sad day for free speech as Labour's NEC adopts the IHRA definition of anti-semitism.

''Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis'' now makes one an anti-semite. I am officially an anti-semite now, I guess.
That's all, folks!

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#1026

Post by St. Gloede » September 4th, 2018, 8:53 pm

Ridiculous and disappointing.

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#1027

Post by Lakigigar » September 4th, 2018, 10:49 pm

RogerTheMovieManiac88 wrote:
September 4th, 2018, 4:33 pm
A sad day for free speech as Labour's NEC adopts the IHRA definition of anti-semitism.

''Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis'' now makes one an anti-semite. I am officially an anti-semite now, I guess.
Second that, and proud to be one.

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#1028

Post by Knaldskalle » September 5th, 2018, 3:13 am

Does that mean that when/if Israel changes its policy that it's then Anti-semitic to not compare it to the Nazis?
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#1029

Post by xianjiro » September 5th, 2018, 7:54 am

Sorry, this one is a bit too complex to make such pat statements about. I can't imagine in what context comparing an African American to the Ku Klux Klan wouldn't be a major landmine. How can anyone think that comparing the victims of a highly-organized, systematic genocide to the perpetrators wouldn't cause offense and pushback? Sometimes the better part of valor is keeping one's BIG MOUTH FUCKING SHUT!

Now, that said, I do understand how Palestinians feel aggrieved at being forced from their lands, into camps where now great-grandchildren are having babies, denied the ability to earn a living, routinely harassed at checkpoints, denied basic living necessities like food, medicine, water and energy - yes, there is a shocking parallel and one might wonder, but again, sometimes the better part of valor is keeping one's BIG MOUTH FUCKING SHUT!

No, this is a product of the soundbite generation - they are the ones that preceded the meme generation. Remember them?

Last, remember, when disagreeing with one of the five most persecuted groups in the history of the planet, sometimes the better part of valor is keeping one's BIG MOUTH FUCKING SHUT!

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
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#1030

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » September 5th, 2018, 8:52 am

It's precisely those chilling parallels that make it a necessity to voice concerns. I have spoken to several friends and politicians who have been to Israel and the Palestinian Territories and seen and experienced some pretty shocking video footage. Some people can't turn the other way as the oppressed take on the mantle of the oppressor.
That's all, folks!

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#1031

Post by xianjiro » September 5th, 2018, 3:38 pm

But is comparing their current government to the very people who KILLED their siblings, parents and grandparents (and aunts, uncles, nephews, nieces, and cousins) just going to shut down discussion of reasonable concerns? I can see drawing parallels with apartheid in South Africa especially after World War II. It's much less threatening than "you're basically no better than Hitler."

And lest we forget, it was largely through the manipulation and support of Western governments that the Israeli government grew. From Sykes-Picot to the present day, various arguments have been made (and some flow from long-standing European anti-Semitic traditions) as to why a Jewish state is a good thing. Where were all our governments when Jewish settlers started relieving Palestinians of their land almost a century ago? Yes, once again, colonialism created this problem, neo-colonialism fueled it, and now the West stands aghast, wringing its hands while cashing the checks.

It is the Palestinians who are the aggrieved party - unless we hold the Italians responsible since they are inheritors of Roman patrimony - for the Romans forced the Jews from their native lands in the first place. However, that said, Arabs and Palestinians aren't totally blameless as they supported the Axis (you know, Hitler, et al) during the Second World War and even some recent leaders (though most notably a Persian) continue to beat the drum of denialism. So, again, the parallel is going to be hugely troubling.

End result, it all plays into the conviction that the whole world is out to get them - huh, wonder why they'd think that AUSCHWITZ - or at best against them.

Listen, Daddy. Teacher says, 'every time a car alarm bleeps, into heaven a demon sneaks.'
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#1032

Post by Knaldskalle » September 5th, 2018, 4:27 pm

xianjiro wrote:
September 5th, 2018, 7:54 am
Sorry, this one is a bit too complex to make such pat statements about. I can't imagine in what context comparing an African American to the Ku Klux Klan wouldn't be a major landmine. How can anyone think that comparing the victims of a highly-organized, systematic genocide to the perpetrators wouldn't cause offense and pushback? Sometimes the better part of valor is keeping one's BIG MOUTH FUCKING SHUT!

Now, that said, I do understand how Palestinians feel aggrieved at being forced from their lands, into camps where now great-grandchildren are having babies, denied the ability to earn a living, routinely harassed at checkpoints, denied basic living necessities like food, medicine, water and energy - yes, there is a shocking parallel and one might wonder, but again, sometimes the better part of valor is keeping one's BIG MOUTH FUCKING SHUT!

No, this is a product of the soundbite generation - they are the ones that preceded the meme generation. Remember them?

Last, remember, when disagreeing with one of the five most persecuted groups in the history of the planet, sometimes the better part of valor is keeping one's BIG MOUTH FUCKING SHUT!
It's the simplicity on both sides that bothers me, to be honest. It's reductionist to make the comparison in the first place, but it's equally reductionist to automatically label it anti-semitic as a response.
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#1033

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » September 5th, 2018, 9:57 pm

xianjiro wrote:
September 5th, 2018, 3:38 pm
But is comparing their current government to the very people who KILLED their siblings, parents and grandparents (and aunts, uncles, nephews, nieces, and cousins) just going to shut down discussion of reasonable concerns? I can see drawing parallels with apartheid in South Africa especially after World War II. It's much less threatening than "you're basically no better than Hitler."

And lest we forget, it was largely through the manipulation and support of Western governments that the Israeli government grew. From Sykes-Picot to the present day, various arguments have been made (and some flow from long-standing European anti-Semitic traditions) as to why a Jewish state is a good thing. Where were all our governments when Jewish settlers started relieving Palestinians of their land almost a century ago? Yes, once again, colonialism created this problem, neo-colonialism fueled it, and now the West stands aghast, wringing its hands while cashing the checks.

It is the Palestinians who are the aggrieved party - unless we hold the Italians responsible since they are inheritors of Roman patrimony - for the Romans forced the Jews from their native lands in the first place. However, that said, Arabs and Palestinians aren't totally blameless as they supported the Axis (you know, Hitler, et al) during the Second World War and even some recent leaders (though most notably a Persian) continue to beat the drum of denialism. So, again, the parallel is going to be hugely troubling.

End result, it all plays into the conviction that the whole world is out to get them - huh, wonder why they'd think that AUSCHWITZ - or at best against them.
Interesting post and one that I don't have too much of a problem with. It's interesting and revealing to read some of the exchanges between German and Palestinian officials from the 1930s. The Nazis used it very much as an off-loading ground for Jews up until about 1938 when there seems to have been a shift towards other ''solutions'' and a realisation that previous policy would in fact strengthen any future Jewish state.

You are quite right when you say that ''colonialism created this problem''. The British must take particular responsibility. Just last year it was publicly acknowledged that the Balfour Declaration should have called for the protection of Arabs' political rights.
That's all, folks!

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#1034

Post by xianjiro » September 6th, 2018, 1:15 am

Knaldskalle wrote:
September 5th, 2018, 4:27 pm
xianjiro wrote:
September 5th, 2018, 7:54 am
Sorry, this one is a bit too complex to make such pat statements about. I can't imagine in what context comparing an African American to the Ku Klux Klan wouldn't be a major landmine. How can anyone think that comparing the victims of a highly-organized, systematic genocide to the perpetrators wouldn't cause offense and pushback? Sometimes the better part of valor is keeping one's BIG MOUTH FUCKING SHUT!

Now, that said, I do understand how Palestinians feel aggrieved at being forced from their lands, into camps where now great-grandchildren are having babies, denied the ability to earn a living, routinely harassed at checkpoints, denied basic living necessities like food, medicine, water and energy - yes, there is a shocking parallel and one might wonder, but again, sometimes the better part of valor is keeping one's BIG MOUTH FUCKING SHUT!

No, this is a product of the soundbite generation - they are the ones that preceded the meme generation. Remember them?

Last, remember, when disagreeing with one of the five most persecuted groups in the history of the planet, sometimes the better part of valor is keeping one's BIG MOUTH FUCKING SHUT!
It's the simplicity on both sides that bothers me, to be honest. It's reductionist to make the comparison in the first place, but it's equally reductionist to automatically label it anti-semitic as a response.
agreed! and having this be part of party rules/bylaws/whatever, the word that comes to my mind is 'stupid'

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#1035

Post by flaiky » September 6th, 2018, 6:16 pm

RogerTheMovieManiac88 wrote:
September 5th, 2018, 9:57 pm
You are quite right when you say that ''colonialism created this problem''. The British must take particular responsibility.
I was in a taxi in America last year, and making the usual small talk with the driver - he asked where we were from, we asked when he was from - then he came back with "From the land your people stole and gave away to the Jews." I was like "Oh shit, uh, sorry about that." :ermm:

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#1036

Post by serri » September 14th, 2018, 4:48 am

xianjiro wrote:
September 5th, 2018, 3:38 pm
But is comparing their current government to the very people who KILLED their siblings, parents and grandparents (and aunts, uncles, nephews, nieces, and cousins) just going to shut down discussion of reasonable concerns?
most israelis aren't related to holocaust victims, and for a few decades there was deep resentment of diaspora jews and holocaust survivors in particular. the history of how we get to modern attitudes about the holocaust is pretty complicated and unsavory.

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#1037

Post by ChrisReynolds » September 14th, 2018, 12:58 pm

serri wrote:
September 14th, 2018, 4:48 am
xianjiro wrote:
September 5th, 2018, 3:38 pm
But is comparing their current government to the very people who KILLED their siblings, parents and grandparents (and aunts, uncles, nephews, nieces, and cousins) just going to shut down discussion of reasonable concerns?
most israelis aren't related to holocaust victims, and for a few decades there was deep resentment of diaspora jews and holocaust survivors in particular. the history of how we get to modern attitudes about the holocaust is pretty complicated and unsavory.
This seems an extraordinary statement to make given the number of Jews who were killed in the holocaust. I would have thought that almost every Jewish Israeli would have lost relatives. What is your evidence for this?

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#1038

Post by serri » September 14th, 2018, 2:42 pm

ChrisReynolds wrote:
September 14th, 2018, 12:58 pm
serri wrote:
September 14th, 2018, 4:48 am
xianjiro wrote:
September 5th, 2018, 3:38 pm
But is comparing their current government to the very people who KILLED their siblings, parents and grandparents (and aunts, uncles, nephews, nieces, and cousins) just going to shut down discussion of reasonable concerns?
most israelis aren't related to holocaust victims, and for a few decades there was deep resentment of diaspora jews and holocaust survivors in particular. the history of how we get to modern attitudes about the holocaust is pretty complicated and unsavory.
This seems an extraordinary statement to make given the number of Jews who were killed in the holocaust. I would have thought that almost every Jewish Israeli would have lost relatives. What is your evidence for this?
settler waves for jewish israelis -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah

if you are coming at this from a six degrees of separation-style thinking i don't think that's contextually productive.

sabras initially referred to holocaust survivors with a slang word that was a play on hebrew for 'coward' and 'soap.' my understanding is that the eichmann trial was critical in starting to change this, im more familiar with the recent role the holocaust has played in aligning the us and israel to legitimize settler-colonialism and militarism.

edit: so hopefully now xianjiro can use this new information to figure out how to conduct discussion of reasonable concerns that isn't prone to participants shutting down :P

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#1039

Post by ChrisReynolds » September 14th, 2018, 4:08 pm

serri wrote:
September 14th, 2018, 2:42 pm
ChrisReynolds wrote:
September 14th, 2018, 12:58 pm
serri wrote:
September 14th, 2018, 4:48 am


most israelis aren't related to holocaust victims, and for a few decades there was deep resentment of diaspora jews and holocaust survivors in particular. the history of how we get to modern attitudes about the holocaust is pretty complicated and unsavory.
This seems an extraordinary statement to make given the number of Jews who were killed in the holocaust. I would have thought that almost every Jewish Israeli would have lost relatives. What is your evidence for this?
settler waves for jewish israelis -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah

if you are coming at this from a six degrees of separation-style thinking i don't think that's contextually productive.

sabras initially referred to holocaust survivors with a slang word that was a play on hebrew for 'coward' and 'soap.' my understanding is that the eichmann trial was critical in starting to change this, im more familiar with the recent role the holocaust has played in aligning the us and israel to legitimize settler-colonialism and militarism.

edit: so hopefully now xianjiro can use this new information to figure out how to conduct discussion of reasonable concerns that isn't prone to participants shutting down :P
I don't understand your ramblings. So Jewish Israelis settled in waves. How does mean they aren't related to Holocaust victims? It should mean that the chances of being related to a holocaust survivor are more likely, because the various settler groups will have intermarried and had descendants.

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#1040

Post by serri » September 14th, 2018, 4:46 pm

probably you don't understand because you haven't done the required reading and have weird ideas about hereditary identities

reinserting the context you deleted: 'But is comparing their current government to the very people who KILLED their siblings, parents and grandparents (and aunts, uncles, nephews, nieces, and cousins) just going to shut down discussion of reasonable concerns?'

just pick whatever city you live closest to, think about a population that had a big influx at one point, and ask if all these years later you consider everybody in that city related to them. i understand it's hard to process large numbers and have accurate ideas about demographics.
Last edited by serri on September 14th, 2018, 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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