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US Politics thread

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xianjiro
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Re: US Politics thread

#10841

Post by xianjiro » August 8th, 2018, 9:50 am

alas, people are people and will always be people - the good, the bad, the ugly, the pretty - it's all on display

As for InfoWars getting the boot, one thing I'll add is Facebook has been, at times, very aggressive about taking down LBGT posts that aren't even sexual. It has been a bone of contention and I don't know if it's gotten better, but my understanding was that their post police weren't necessarily based in countries that value the rights of people to say "I'm gay." and such posts were removed. Therefore, to see Jones and the like able to post unrestrained has always been yet another sore spot.

I'm quite supportive of the right of all sides to speak, but there are times when it's hard to be supportive of hate speech. Should someone be able to stand up on the train and start screaming anti-muslim threats at a couple high school girls? Is that free speech? We might say as long as the threats are non-specific like "muslims should forced to return to Iran" it is protected speech but "I'd love to slit your muslim throat" isn't. Still, such an incident resulted in two deaths on the train I ride.

In US case law, it has been held that while one has the right to speak, one can be held accountable for such speech even when others choose to act on it. So clearly there are bounds to free speech. Additionally, case law has clearly defined private property, even when very public space like a shopping mall or train station, as not being totally public and therefore the owner/lessor has a right to limit the access and usage including the ability to disallow certain types of speech. So extending such to an online platform isn't much of a stretch. Regardless how pervasive FB, Twitter, and such are, they are still proprietary software. As a society we can't really have it both ways: newspapers are held liable for what they print, but currently we've said that social media platforms aren't the same thing since there is no editorial control. However, they have the right to enforce community standards and remove content that violates defined standards.

So if Jones isn't facilitated by Facebook and earning money of YouTube, so what? He can still post his drivel on his own website. Why should any company be forced into complicity simple because they provide a self publishing platform? Amazon reserves the right to pull self-published books that violate its TOS. Why not the rest?

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#10842

Post by Onderhond » August 8th, 2018, 10:14 am

I think in Europe there are laws that say you can't "incite hate", which I think is a nice boundary. People should be able to voice their opinions, unpopular as they may be, but they shouldn't incite others to think the same or act on those feelings. Personal threats aren't a part of free speech I guess, other laws apply there.

The problem with the term "hate speech" is that it means different things to different people. I think one should be able to say "I don't like men having sex with men" or "I don't like the aggressive attitude of Muslims" if one feels that way. But that same person should also be aware that his opinion means shit all and other people have the right to ignore it. These are just feelings, thoughts and ideas, not being able to voice them doesn't make them go away, on the contrary even.
xianjiro wrote:
August 8th, 2018, 9:50 am
Why should any company be forced into complicity simple because they provide a self publishing platform? Amazon reserves the right to pull self-published books that violate its TOS. Why not the rest?
Because those laws date back from a time when no company was bigger than a country. Those times have changed. Facebook has about 2 billion users? That's about 1/3th of the world population on there. One company deciding who can say what, even if our current laws allow it, just isn't a good idea. Especially when those companies, much more so that governments, are contractually obliged to make as money as possible and only make as much money as possible. Morality plays no part in that and sadly that goes both ways.

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#10843

Post by xianjiro » August 8th, 2018, 2:31 pm

But FB, Google (even YouTube) and others limit what is available in certain countries. So it's not too much of a stretch for them to figure out that Alex Jones might cause them legal problems in this or that country. Hey, no one asked them to be 'universal', right? So if they choose to be so, then they can choose to follow local laws (or deal with the issue when someone takes them to court).

The issue for many is that we are unwittingly part of enriching Jones and also able to be targeted to by Jones since FB and Google are more than just conduits of information. YouTube pays Jones based on views. That money comes from YouTube collecting fees and information and reselling it outright or placing ads based on that information. Additionally, Jones/IW can go to either platform and say, run this ad at this target population. Social media companies are so much more than just publishing platforms in this situation. They realize that if they work with Jones, they will be targeted both from within and outside.

And both companies are headquartered in the US and easily sued in American courts.

Think of it this way: if you own a hotel, you rent rooms. End of story, right? Yes and no. If you only know someone is renting a room from you and they close the door, then you don't care. But if you notice a string of visitors going to that one room, hmmm you might become suspicious, but you don't really know anything at this point. If you ask the renter "what's going on" and they tell you "I'm turning tricks" then you know. If you continue to allow them to turn tricks from your establishment, you are complicit and just as likely to end up talking with the local prosecutor if they get busted. This would be facilitation. Even if you don't know, the prosecutor is going to say "What? You don't pay any attention to what is going on under your roof? BS! How much they pay you to look the other way?" No one wants that kind of exposure.

Can the same legal arguments be made against Facebook or Google? Do they really want to spend millions finding out? And last, since they could be hauled into any number of courts, each with differing laws (and that's just in the US), it doesn't make sense to take the risk. At some point they will have to say, this is too risky and terminate the business relationship. It's their fiduciary responsibility as a publically traded corporation.

If Jones was just Alex Jones, user of Facebook who is also whatever at InfoWars, it would be much less of an issue, but Jones is a customer and also supplier in this scenario.

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#10844

Post by Onderhond » August 8th, 2018, 2:40 pm

Just try to imagine a hotel with 2 billion people in it. I know I can't. There is a point where a private platform because a public space. Facebook is the largest public space ever. Unless we're going for a global government and abolish the concept of countries, there's no way of knowing what it means to govern 2 billion people.

Putting that in the hands of a corporation that only cares about $ is not a good idea. Regardless of existing regulations and whatnot. Again, I've heard and read al the excuses and know they make legal sense, but that doesn't really solve the problem we're trying to deal with.

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#10845

Post by xianjiro » August 8th, 2018, 2:54 pm

True enough. But I think both FB and Google are aware that more regulation is forthcoming - on multiple fronts - so they are 1) reacting to criticism that haven't yet done enough and 2) trying to protect themselves going forward.

I think the argument is easily made that neither is keeping Jones off the Internet and both probably will still serve his URLs to appropriate searches. So neither is really trying to ban him completely. And if nothing else, Jones has other ways to get his URL to his intended audience.

Now on the issue of what the Internet is, should be, and how corporations fit into the grand scheme, that's absolutely still being worked out. It's not a good idea in my book to allow corporations too much control, but if you build a backbone, are you required to allow porn to flow across it? To Middle East countries where it's clearly illegal? Kiddy porn? See, so decisions are going to be made and have to be made. And face it, the corporations have won (for now and foreseeable future). It's not a world that excites me, but no one has died and made me god so I just got to deal with the hand I've been dealt.

So, anyone up for a more robust United Nations? ;)

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#10846

Post by Good_Will_Harding » August 8th, 2018, 3:10 pm

Good summation of why this is exactly the wrong time for "protest votes" and running off to a third party candidate:


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#10847

Post by Good_Will_Harding » August 8th, 2018, 3:14 pm

Also: fuck Alex Jones right to hell. I hope that after the final social media holdouts banish him for good as well, that bloated sack of shit finishes his tenure sitting poor and disgraced in some unknown alleyway long after everyone has forgotten who he is and the impact he may have had on the larger online discourse has been washed away for good.

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#10848

Post by Onderhond » August 8th, 2018, 3:23 pm

xianjiro wrote:
August 8th, 2018, 2:54 pm
I think the argument is easily made that neither is keeping Jones off the Internet and both probably will still serve his URLs to appropriate searches. So neither is really trying to ban him completely. And if nothing else, Jones has other ways to get his URL to his intended audience.
Except they don't need to list the URLs right, since they're private companies. If Google boots him from Google Search, that's still okay because of the arguments given here.

My problem with the "private company" argument is that it opens a lot of doors that you don't want opened. And sure, most of these tech companies appear progressive enough, so for now it's fine, but in the long run that may not be case, especially when it starts hurting their bottom line. Call it a slippery slope fallacy if you must, but that doesn't mean the opportunity isn't there. Wouldn't be the first time the right weaponized the same tactics as the left and made far bigger damage.

Also, as someone who has had a blog for 11 years straight, I can tell you that you need these platforms for visibility. Your URL may be there, but if you can't promote yourself on the big social media networks, you might as well be shouting at a passerby from your front lawn.

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#10849

Post by RBG » August 8th, 2018, 5:43 pm

alex jones encouraged terrorism against the families of murdered children. he is pond scum and should have been booted long ago

zuck's been taking a lot of heat since the election so he's trying to get some good press i imagine

isn't this just market forces at work tho?

back to how the fuck did this person ever become president: since he couldn't get his personal doctor to head the VA, trump has apparently handed over control to some of his golf buddies at mar-a-lago.

https://splinternews.com/trump-has-repo ... 1828187399
The triumvirate of extra-governmental shot callers consists of Palm Beach doctor Bruce Moskowitz, attorney Marc Sherman, and, perhaps most notably, Marvel Entertainment chairman Ike Perlmutter. None of the three have ever served in the U.S. armed forces, although Perlmutter is an Israeli army veteran who fought in the 1967 Six Day War. What they do all possess, however, is expertise at giving Trump money; all three pay thousands of dollars a year to be Mar-a-Lago members.
the head of marvel entertainment is running the VA :facepalm:

https://www.propublica.org/article/ike- ... -of-the-va

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#10850

Post by xianjiro » August 8th, 2018, 7:41 pm

Good_Will_Harding wrote:
August 8th, 2018, 3:14 pm
Also: fuck Alex Jones right to hell. I hope that after the final social media holdouts banish him for good as well, that bloated sack of shit finishes his tenure sitting poor and disgraced in some unknown alleyway long after everyone has forgotten who he is and the impact he may have had on the larger online discourse has been washed away for good.
would you add something about a dirty needle hanging from his vein? pretty please? :P

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#10851

Post by xianjiro » August 8th, 2018, 7:45 pm

Onderhond wrote:
August 8th, 2018, 3:23 pm
xianjiro wrote:
August 8th, 2018, 2:54 pm
I think the argument is easily made that neither is keeping Jones off the Internet and both probably will still serve his URLs to appropriate searches. So neither is really trying to ban him completely. And if nothing else, Jones has other ways to get his URL to his intended audience.
Except they don't need to list the URLs right, since they're private companies. If Google boots him from Google Search, that's still okay because of the arguments given here.

My problem with the "private company" argument is that it opens a lot of doors that you don't want opened. And sure, most of these tech companies appear progressive enough, so for now it's fine, but in the long run that may not be case, especially when it starts hurting their bottom line. Call it a slippery slope fallacy if you must, but that doesn't mean the opportunity isn't there. Wouldn't be the first time the right weaponized the same tactics as the left and made far bigger damage.

Also, as someone who has had a blog for 11 years straight, I can tell you that you need these platforms for visibility. Your URL may be there, but if you can't promote yourself on the big social media networks, you might as well be shouting at a passerby from your front lawn.
don't disagree with anything you said - but on the flipside, what's the alternative? Government owned and operated internet? A not-for-profit owner? Something else? Things don't just exist, especially things that need infrastructure. So who will pay to build and maintain if not some combination of government and industry?

there's little in life that doesn't have downsides. even ice cream has a downside :lol:

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#10852

Post by xianjiro » August 8th, 2018, 7:47 pm

RBG wrote:
August 8th, 2018, 5:43 pm
alex jones encouraged terrorism against the families of murdered children. he is pond scum and should have been booted long ago

zuck's been taking a lot of heat since the election so he's trying to get some good press i imagine

isn't this just market forces at work tho?

back to how the fuck did this person ever become president: since he couldn't get his personal doctor to head the VA, trump has apparently handed over control to some of his golf buddies at mar-a-lago.

https://splinternews.com/trump-has-repo ... 1828187399
The triumvirate of extra-governmental shot callers consists of Palm Beach doctor Bruce Moskowitz, attorney Marc Sherman, and, perhaps most notably, Marvel Entertainment chairman Ike Perlmutter. None of the three have ever served in the U.S. armed forces, although Perlmutter is an Israeli army veteran who fought in the 1967 Six Day War. What they do all possess, however, is expertise at giving Trump money; all three pay thousands of dollars a year to be Mar-a-Lago members.
the head of marvel entertainment is running the VA :facepalm:

https://www.propublica.org/article/ike- ... -of-the-va
And the Douchey goes to ... yep, no contest AGAIN this year!

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#10853

Post by RBG » August 8th, 2018, 11:05 pm

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/wh ... ll-tweets/

538 has an interesting project documenting the russian troll factory's tweets, which are ongoing and aimed at countries worldwide. suffice it to say if the operation wasn't at least a little bit successful they wouldn't still be doing it? there are several specific types of trolls

Image

Image

pretty cool stuff for data nerds

Image

44 years ago today, woodward and bernstein watched nixon resign. just saying DONALD :whistling:

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#10854

Post by Cippenham » August 9th, 2018, 11:34 am

I don’t understand all this racism stuff as surely people of all races are better off now as more appear to have jobs? Simple as that.

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#10855

Post by RBG » August 9th, 2018, 12:01 pm

“The America that we know and love doesn't exist anymore. Massive demographic changes have been foisted on the American people ... Much of this is related to both illegal and in some cases legal immigration that progressives love.”
-- laura ingraham on fox, yesterday. unadulterated racism

a sikh man placing campaign signs for the GOP was attacked in california this week! an 11 yr old black girl was tasered by police in cincinnati yesterday

being harassed, attacked, vilified, victims of hate crime etc, no big deal then? but cipp's return reminds me of the biggest tragedy here imo

any chance we may once have had to stop climate change is probably gone forever between these two stolen elections: 2000 & 2016.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/cap ... last-week/

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#10856

Post by Cippenham » August 9th, 2018, 2:17 pm

Given there is no point talking about things you cannot change I once again leave you to it.

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#10857

Post by Lakigigar » August 9th, 2018, 2:23 pm

Good_Will_Harding wrote:
August 8th, 2018, 3:10 pm
Good summation of why this is exactly the wrong time for "protest votes" and running off to a third party candidate:

The lesser of the two evils is Donald Trump.

And even with the green party's votes included, they wouldn't have won, but would've needed an additional 400 votes to win. As long, third parties run, they'll get votes, you can't change that... Even if the left agrees, you'll still have people voting third party... If third parties aren't allowed in races, those people might stay at home, or even vote republican, while people who might vote libertarian might have voted for republicans otherwise.

But begging for third party voters to vote for one of the two. That will never work, and isn't called a democracy... Maybe the Democratic Party should try to institute real democracy in their platform (proportional voting system, including third party financial and debate support, removing the superdelegates system),and maybe than i could think of supporting the democratic party, but right now even republicans are less authoritarian than the democrats. Republicans at least didn't sabotage elections.

And let's be honest, democrats won't never do enough to reverse climate change lol. The world is fucked up anyway... Democrats also had their chances to do more for the climate during times when they were more powerful... Paris agreement for example is absolutely not ambitious, and there is no way, we will keep the world temperature below a 2°C rise, there is no fucking way.

Unless you of course change to a libertarian communist society, where the economy serves the people (instead of vice versa), and where we won't waste resources on overproduction and in tricking people to buy stuff in advertisements, when they can get public access to libraries, public transport and so on (no we don't need a car, we can have an entire network worldwide with just busses, metroes, trains and planes, we don't need cars, i repeat, we don't need cars). We also can abolish the meat production, but that won't happen, because it would hurt the economy... Well the shareholders will have a nice time when the Earth is a barren desert. Enjoy your time, folks, in a wasteland you created!

And of course, the platform of the Democratic Party exists out of only two things:
- reversing everything donald trump has changed (and the next republican president might reverse those changes again)
- proving that the russians messed up with their elections

But real change that would change something in the life of the people, won't happen. Especially not with someone like Joe Biden who could have easily been a republican.

EDIT: and lol, what's the problem anyway. The Greens lost more than 3% compared to the last election in the Ohio-12 district, and they're still being criticized... The only thing they're trying to do is making sure third parties have no support anymore, this is just part of a smear campaign against anyone who isn't democratic... You're either for us or against us...

Well looks like i'm against you despite being part of the left haha.

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#10858

Post by RBG » August 9th, 2018, 9:44 pm

Republicans at least didn't sabotage elections.
:lol:

i like to think if al gore, one of the first to sound the alarm about climate change, had become president in 2000, we might have had a chance. ironically it was the green party (and the supreme court) that stopped that from happening. ofc we'll never know. so fuck everything i guess. let's embrace the nazis. the idea that democrats are more authoritarian than trump is laughable
And of course, the platform of the Democratic Party exists out of only two things:
- reversing everything donald trump has changed (and the next republican president might reverse those changes again)
- proving that the russians messed up with their elections
this is far from the truth but since you don't live here we don't need your support. i have no idea why you think the democratic party should support third parties financially to sabotage their own candidates. i'm going to have to ignore you now like oldale. sorry
The lesser of the two evils is Donald Trump.
-- so you have no problem with racism, xenophobia, misogyny and climate change denial. got it. you're the living embodiment of the horseshoe theory

btw you may want to look at this: both donna brazile and elizabeth warren walked back their statements about the DNC and there is still no evidence any primary was rigged. repeating it over and over doesn't make it any more true. what 'rigging' there was actually benefited sanders. maybe worry about the politics of belgium as xianjiro suggested

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... ary-rigged

if we can stop voter suppression, add DC & PR to congress, better yet ban the electoral college, republicans will never win another election. then democrats can be the right and DSA the left and i will proudly join DSA if and when this happens. it all gets A LOT tougher with two new ultraright judges on the court thx to your lesser of two evils president. but rights of women and lgbt aren't as important as your precious feelings i guess

anyway it's all hands on deck now, as i've already said repeatedly. if we don't start taking shit back, our democracy is over. so it's pretty important :folded:

and not only DID republicans sabotage an election, there is every sign they're trying to do it again

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#10859

Post by RBG » August 10th, 2018, 1:25 am

Image

vote now!! i believe the plan is finding another nearby planet to trash when this one is no longer inhabitable :/ 1 billion dollars per ticket. whites only

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#10860

Post by funkybusiness » August 10th, 2018, 1:31 am

We don't call it the Force anymore, guidelines say we refer to it as the Service now.

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#10861

Post by RBG » August 10th, 2018, 1:36 am

disappointing, it is

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#10862

Post by xianjiro » August 10th, 2018, 4:43 am

:thumbsup: thanks for sharing this link - interesting viewpoint

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#10863

Post by xianjiro » August 10th, 2018, 4:44 am

funkybusiness wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 1:31 am
We don't call it the Force anymore, guidelines say we refer to it as the Service now.
right - the service should 'serve' The Force, because it's with us all! :o

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#10864

Post by Onderhond » August 10th, 2018, 5:19 am

RBG wrote:
August 9th, 2018, 9:44 pm
The lesser of the two evils is Donald Trump.
-- so you have no problem with racism, xenophobia, misogyny and climate change denial. got it. you're the living embodiment of the horseshoe theory
Just for reference, it's this kind of talk I simply don't get. You seem capable of level-headed discussion just well enough, but then you come across this and it's like somebody unplugged your brain there for 10 seconds while typing.

Unless my grasp of the English language is insufficient, the whole point of "lesser of two evils" is to indicate that you have a substantial problem with both choices (in Belgium we say "choosing between the pest and cholera" btw), right? How then you come to an exact opposite conclusion ("so you have no problem with ...") is completely beyond me. It's either blind rage or cheap trolling, but neither really does much for a conversation, except derail it.

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#10865

Post by funkybusiness » August 10th, 2018, 6:40 am

My reference above was to Hot Fuzz, not Star Wars. y'all can trust I probably won't intentionally make a Star Wars reference.

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#10866

Post by Gershwin » August 10th, 2018, 7:08 am

funkybusiness wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 6:40 am
My reference above was to Hot Fuzz, not Star Wars. y'all can trust I probably won't intentionally make a Star Wars reference.
Phew! I almost started worrying about your health, Funkymate.
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#10867

Post by funkybusiness » August 10th, 2018, 7:15 am

Gershwin wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 7:08 am
funkybusiness wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 6:40 am
My reference above was to Hot Fuzz, not Star Wars. y'all can trust I probably won't intentionally make a Star Wars reference.
Phew! I almost started worrying about your health, Funkymate.
No worries in that department, Gersh! You know what they say, Chewbacca's uncle's Ewok is only a lightsaber duel away from midichlorians, but only the May 4th following a Coruscant cycle in which Han shot first.

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#10868

Post by Gershwin » August 10th, 2018, 7:32 am

Yeah, when you get in the sand dunes you better not catch any dust in your RD22. Not sure what that's refering to. Also isn't it Midlothians?
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#10869

Post by funkybusiness » August 10th, 2018, 7:39 am

oh, you're right, it's mixolydian.

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#10870

Post by xianjiro » August 10th, 2018, 8:26 am

I believe Midlothians have a Scotch Force

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#10871

Post by RBG » August 10th, 2018, 9:07 am

funkybusiness wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 6:40 am
My reference above was to Hot Fuzz, not Star Wars. y'all can trust I probably won't intentionally make a Star Wars reference.
oops sorry i unplugged my brain for ten seconds while typing :unsure:
RBG wrote: ↑09 Aug 2018 14:44
The lesser of the two evils is Donald Trump.
-- so you have no problem with racism, xenophobia, misogyny and climate change denial. got it. you're the living embodiment of the horseshoe theory
Just for reference, it's this kind of talk I simply don't get. You seem capable of level-headed discussion just well enough, but then you come across this and it's like somebody unplugged your brain there for 10 seconds while typing.
right, of course i meant LESS of a problem then with some imagined crimes of the pantsuit emails lady

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Lakigigar
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#10872

Post by Lakigigar » August 10th, 2018, 11:26 am

Al Gore is a crook... and i know a lot about climate change. Just telling you that.

And one of the first to ring the alarm bells... scientists know the climate is warming for 50 years already, but back than everyone deemed it off as apocalyptic nonsense sensation talk. He just believes he's the saviour of all people, but he is far from important, and even lied about certain aspects or just didn't mention things that he should have mentioned (like animal agriculture as number 1 cause of climate change).

And his EVA is going to be 10 times as high, as mine... Just telling you that. I barely eat meat. I don't drive cars... He has a private plane. And he believes he's the only one entitled to do such things.

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#10873

Post by Lakigigar » August 10th, 2018, 11:39 am

You would have to ignore me like Old Ale, because you can't stand that i disagree you despite being a progressive myself, and climate change believer. But believe me when i engage into a discussion about the climate change, i will usually win them with my sheer knowledge (i know 20 times more about the climates than i do know stuff about movies), but i will get in trouble when they start mentioning Al Gore, because climate deniers have a point there, and I absolutely hate him.

I also refuse to vote for the "lesser of the two evil" because people tell me to do that. I'm really grateful i live in a country with a multi-party system... It's like choosing to vote for far-right Flemish Interest (Vlaams Belang) or the centre-right Liberals or the Nationalist N-VA. Ugh the horror. I would probably prefer the far-right in that case, above the market economy parties. And even than, i would most likely still vote for a political party which would almost certainly not reach the necessary 5% threshold... What's the point of a democracy if you only can vote for parties that win... than nothing can ever change, and everything will rust up to death, be blocked, and your system will be very vulnerable to corruption, because the same party / parties will stay in power... What's the difference between the system Americans have and an dictatorial oligarchy? Yes, you can still vote people in through primaries, but if people argue like... We have to vote for the moderates because that's the only way we can win, you can basically scrape the elections, and let people in the political business appoint who's going to be president, senator and so on... and let me tell you, politics in general would still be the same, and there would be surprisingly few changes from the current situation. But yes, donald trump would never have been appointed.

And what's that talk about "our democracy is over" and "fascism"... I really don't agree with that... If anything, 2016 showed people voted in favour of democracy... instead of voting for the person who everyone wanted to be the president.

Yes, it's unfortunate that they've appointed two ultra-right judges. That's the downside of it.

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#10874

Post by Lakigigar » August 10th, 2018, 11:48 am

And it's not like things would have been better if Hillary Clinton was president. She had a very aggressive attitude in foreign politics as well. If she had won, there would have been a republican majority in senate & house... They would have appointed moderate judges... or they wouldn't been approved by the republicans. The electoral college system wouldn't have been banned, because in fact, it was thought it preferred the democrats and made it impossible for republicans to break the "blue wall". Why would they scrape the electoral college in that case... She would have been a very unpopular president, and would have faced possibly a tough primary in 2020 or not... and democrats would have lost in 2020 when a much better republican candidate would've ran against her... and they would probably have been re-elected in 2024, and during those 8 years they could have appointed a lot of right-wing judges..., while during the 2018 midterm elections, republicans would have won again (as opposition against Hillary Clinton), and 2012 would have been the last elections democrats would have actually did well in senate & house.

What is going to happen now... Democrats are at least going to do much better in 2018 and 2020, and they have a chance in 2020 to beat Trump (in fact, i would be surprised if it didn't happen). And than they could have power for 4 or 8 years, and appoint liberal judges.

LONG-TERM vision... one step backwards in order to make two steps forward in the future.

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Post by Onderhond » August 10th, 2018, 12:16 pm

RBG wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 9:07 am
right, of course i meant LESS of a problem then with some imagined crimes of the pantsuit emails lady
Well, then we agree :) I can somehow understand how less level-headed people ended up voting Trump, but I have no idea how he's supposed to be the lesser evil of the two. Unless you maybe want to look at the long term, but that's just anybody's guess.

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#10876

Post by Cocoa » August 10th, 2018, 12:27 pm

Lakigigar wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 11:48 am
And it's not like things would have been better if Hillary Clinton was president.
We are at risk of asbestos making a comeback in the U.S. Children and parents seeking asylum status were separated, and lots of them have not been reunited even after a judge ordered the government to do so. People died in Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria and were left without power when the government could have sent better aid. Trump has started trade wars with allies. Et cetera.

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#10877

Post by Lakigigar » August 10th, 2018, 1:10 pm

I had no problem with the e-mails. My main problem are the rigged primaries and her political presence / agenda.. (goldman sachs deals for how much million euros... )... Remember how wall street got away with everything after the 2008 crisis... And politicians still bend down for them. At least, Trump spoke to the people. Hillary couldn't and didn't. But maybe, yes Trump was better in campaigning, and Hillary could have been better in office.
Cocoa wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 12:27 pm
Lakigigar wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 11:48 am
And it's not like things would have been better if Hillary Clinton was president.
We are at risk of asbestos making a comeback in the U.S. Children and parents seeking asylum status were separated, and lots of them have not been reunited even after a judge ordered the government to do so. People died in Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria and were left without power when the government could have sent better aid. Trump has started trade wars with allies. Et cetera.
I don't get the first sentence, i agree with all the other stuff, though the trade wars aren't necessarily a bad thing... It's never bad, when the USA hurts itself of course. Their allies should have been tougher... If USA doesn't value their allies, why should we keep the USA as an ally... We aren't obligated to have them as an ally. It's easy to switch over to a different ally, or at least that's what i would do if i was a politician. Europe should focus on becoming a power once again, and cooperating with China, Russia and Iran. That's where i believe in. Currently we're way too dependant on the USA, and it's like we're a puppet of them, and follow them everywhere they go, while we have clearly seen that this isn't a good idea, and that Europe should work on an INDEPENDENT FOREIGN POLITICS traject, like we should condemn the USA for supporting the embassy in Jerusalem and should be tougher against the crimes and human rights violations Israel commit. USA can't demand from us that we stop trading with Iran and hurt our economy... We should have continued trading with Iran. USA would never have stopped trading with Europe, so i really don't get why... companies just continue to trade with Iran and why European governments don't support those companies...

We should also be way tougher against multinationals, and especially companies from the USA, and work on subsiding / expanding European and local companies... Supporting our local economy, more self-sustainable economy, and especially being very protectionist, stopping the cultural domination of the USA, only allowing a certain percentage of American movies in cinemas (max. 33%, different ruleset for arthouse cinema) or games and so on. Not because i have something against USA, but because Europe has no identity anymore, because everything is dominating by American brands, movies, and their export products, and that needs to stop.

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#10878

Post by xianjiro » August 10th, 2018, 3:41 pm

aw shucks, I thought we were on the verge of relitigating the 2000 election as well! Would be a nice change to the never-ending debate of who sucked more in 2016.

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#10879

Post by Gershwin » August 10th, 2018, 6:00 pm

Don't try to be holier than the Pope. If you're politically left, you'd better team up with other people who are on the left, or you'll end up empty-handed. If you want to do anything against climate change, you'd better accept that some people can have a different approach, but still have the same goal in mind, and you'd better team up with those as well. At least that's my point of view. But then I'm typically middle of the road, politically. But that is the essence of effective politics, of course. Pragmatism to attain your ideals - which isn't the same as 'pragmatism, not idealism'.
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#10880

Post by Lakigigar » August 10th, 2018, 6:11 pm

Image

I'm usually not in favour of USA meddling in foreign affairs, but forcing a regime change in Turkey could actually be a good thing, and i really have a bad opinion about Turkey, so i'm not really sure what to think about...

Are we actually still supporting an independent Iraqi Kurdistan and/or Rovaja?

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