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#2521

Post by kongs_speech »

cinewest wrote: January 3rd, 2021, 8:09 am
prodigalgodson wrote: January 3rd, 2021, 7:31 am
cinewest wrote: January 3rd, 2021, 7:18 am Sorry to hear of his passing, just one week after my own dad last month.
So sorry to hear about your dad cw.
He's been teetering on the edge, in serious decline for awhile, so "letting go" and finding real empathy has been a big part of my relationship with him since we admitted him to a senior home with 24 hour care 4 years ago. In one sense his passing has been a relief, and since we can't all be together as a family for the funeral right now, my mom has collected his ashes so that we can have a small ceremony when that is possible (hopefully this year).
Cheers
Damn. My deepest sympathies to you and your family.
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#2522

Post by blocho »

Tanya Roberts, 65

American actress, probably best known as the female lead in A View to a Kill and for her work in several TV shows.


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Last edited by blocho on January 5th, 2021, 5:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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#2523

Post by blocho »

Vladimir Koronev, 80

Russian actor, probably best known as the lead in Amphibian Man.

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#2524

Post by DareDaniel »

RBG wrote: January 3rd, 2021, 11:00 am don't lionize abusive asshole kim ki-duk. at least he won't make any more bad films
:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

Reported.
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#2525

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

DareDaniel wrote: January 4th, 2021, 4:56 pm
RBG wrote: January 3rd, 2021, 11:00 am don't lionize abusive asshole kim ki-duk. at least he won't make any more bad films
:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

Reported.
The bad films dig is unnecessary, but calling out abuse is fine, even in death. https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/m ... pe-assault
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#2526

Post by OldAle1 »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: January 4th, 2021, 5:07 pm
DareDaniel wrote: January 4th, 2021, 4:56 pm
RBG wrote: January 3rd, 2021, 11:00 am don't lionize abusive asshole kim ki-duk. at least he won't make any more bad films
:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

Reported.
The bad films dig is unnecessary, but calling out abuse is fine, even in death. https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/m ... pe-assault
Agreed on all that. Not sure I was aware of the allegations (can't keep up with all the celebs and artists who turn out to be terrible people) but I'm not really surprised. And I don't want to get into the whole "can we separate the art from the artist" thing, too big a subject and already discussed plenty elsewhere, but let's just say that I will mourn the loss of Clint Eastwood whenever it comes, for what I see as a great career, but it won't bother me in the least if people want to hammer him for the way he treated women or his increasingly crazy politics over the last decade. If other people only want to watch movies made by saints or read books written by perfect humanists, fine, but that's too difficult a path to tread for me, and I think most of us are just going to draw the line between what's tolerable or not in somebody whose work we like - but we will never draw that line in exactly the same place.
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#2527

Post by OldAle1 »

blocho wrote: January 4th, 2021, 2:39 am Tanya Roberts, 65

American actress, probably best known as the female lead in A View to a Kill and for her work in several TV shows.

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Definitely my favorite Angel, at least to look at wearing a bikini in the treasured Hawaii or Florida-set episodes :wub:

Sadly she never developed that strongly as an actress from what I've seen though she was kind of funny in That 70s Show, playing off her image.
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#2528

Post by kongs_speech »

RBG wrote: January 3rd, 2021, 11:00 am don't lionize abusive asshole kim ki-duk. at least he won't make any more bad films
It's absolutely valid to call attention to a deceased person's faults, just as it was with Sean Connery, but this comment is so tacky and disrespectful to the fans of Kim Ki-duk's work. They have a right to be sad that they will not be seeing any more of his films. Mourning the loss of an artist does not mean you're endorsing everything they did as a human being. I have yet to see any Kim films, so I don't know if they're bad or not and I don't have a dog in this fight, but it seems as though at least a few of his works are universally considered to be good. It's not like Uwe Boll, who is both a terrible person and a terrible filmmaker, died. Even then, I wouldn't believe in being rude about it in a thread called "rest in peace."
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#2529

Post by Torgo »

It's also not like KKD was Harvey Weinstein. I have never heard of these accusations before this thread, they haven't nearly Harvey's scale nor are they admitted to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Ki-du ... llegations
In 2018, two more women accused Kim of sexual assault.[15][16][17] Kim then filed false accusation suits and defamation suits against these accusers.[18]

In January 2019, the court [...] dismissed the sexual assault charge for lack of evidence. Kim subsequently sued the actress for false accusation.[19] The following month, Kim filed a lawsuit against a women’s rights group over “damages” caused by the group against him.[20]
So, another case of "We don't really know".
I'm sure there are enough other places to have a fundamental debate on "separate the art from the artist" (see OldAle). I'm just sad to see the source of his great films from 1996 to 2007 (+Moebius) gone, there was quite non other like his films, neither then or now. Will be hard to replace - will be missed as an artist.

Undecided on the rest, not what I wanted to debate now anyhow.
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#2530

Post by clemmetarey »

Alexi Laiho, singer and guitarist of Children of Bodom, passed away at 41. Even though I didn't keep up with their recent stuff, they were one of my favorite bands as a teenager, and one of my gateways to heavier music. They were also one of the first band I saw live when I was 17.
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#2531

Post by OldAle1 »

Moving on (sadly)...

Barbara Shelley, British actress, 88, COVID

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One of the Queens of British horror in the 60s, particularly for Hammer, Shelley started her career in Italy in the 1950s but is undoubtedly best-know for her work in several significant SF-horror films from the next decade, including Quatermass and the Pit, Dracula: Prince of Darkness and Village of the Damned. On TV she appeared in quite a few well-known series, usually in smaller or guest roles, including The Man From UNCLE, The Avengers, and Doctor Who.
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#2532

Post by RBG »

many feminist critics called KKD out as a misogynist even before the allegations. thus they weren't all that surprising. if that doesn't bother you then whatever. to say they're universally acclaimed is just wrong. based on what i've seen i'll take the word of multiple women. example:
The work of Kim Ki-duk has been contentious for many reasons over the years, with the rampant misogyny that permeates his films being a particular bone of contention amongst critics. His most recent outing doesn't so much add fuel to that fire as drop a bomb on it. Featuring rape at almost every turn, Human, Space, Time and Human is what happens when you feed an ego and allow its pathological violence to go unchecked for two decades. Savage chauvinism aside, Kim's latest is also a puerile and repetitive film from a voice that has long since given up trying to say anything worthwhile.
https://screenanarchy.com/2018/03/berli ... movie.html

haven't seen this particular film but it sounds utterly disgusting and i stand by what i said previously
Last edited by RBG on January 4th, 2021, 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#2533

Post by kongs_speech »

https://www.metacritic.com/movie/spring ... and-spring
https://www.metacritic.com/movie/3-iron
https://www.metacritic.com/movie/time
https://www.metacritic.com/movie/pieta

These films are all very popular with critics, with the first meeting the criteria for what Metacritic considers "universal acclaim." Again, I am in no way condoning the guy's alleged behavior and it sounds like he quite possibly did some awful shit, but if we're not to use Metacritic as a measure of acclaim, then what?
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#2534

Post by Torgo »

RBG wrote: January 4th, 2021, 6:27 pm based on what i've seen
RBG wrote: January 3rd, 2021, 11:00 am abusive asshole kim ki-duk. at least he won't make any more bad films
-> Has seen 2 of his films
Ok, nothing to see here. Time to move on.
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#2535

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

Torgo wrote: January 4th, 2021, 5:55 pm It's also not like KKD was Harvey Weinstein. I have never heard of these accusations before this thread, they haven't nearly Harvey's scale nor are they admitted to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Ki-du ... llegations
In 2018, two more women accused Kim of sexual assault.[15][16][17] Kim then filed false accusation suits and defamation suits against these accusers.[18]

In January 2019, the court [...] dismissed the sexual assault charge for lack of evidence. Kim subsequently sued the actress for false accusation.[19] The following month, Kim filed a lawsuit against a women’s rights group over “damages” caused by the group against him.[20]
So, another case of "We don't really know".
I'm sure there are enough other places to have a fundamental debate on "separate the art from the artist" (see OldAle). I'm just sad to see the source of his great films from 1996 to 2007 (+Moebius) gone, there was quite non other like his films, neither then or now. Will be hard to replace - will be missed as an artist.

Undecided on the rest, not what I wanted to debate now anyhow.
RBG said abuser, not sexual abuser and the part you cut out says "In January 2019, the court ordered Kim to pay a $4,450 (KRW 5 million) fine for the assault."

You can separate the art and the artist if you wish, but this thread is about the artists dying, not the art disappearing. Whatever arguments there are don't apply to a thread where posts are about people and not their art, even if the reason we know them and post about them in the first place is their art. The whole point of this thread is that these artists are people and mortal, just like the rest of us and didn't just create art but lived lives and interacted with people. And sometimes they were particularly bad people and shouldn't have that washed away just because they're dead.

Everyone has flaws, and it's true that focusing on those flaws in death is rude and unnecessary. But being hurtful to others is more than a flaw, especially when it's either chronic or flagrant. Calling out someone for being a drunk when they die is rude, calling them out for being a repeated drunk driver is not. Calling someone out for being temperamental is rude, calling them out for being an abuser is not. Calling someone out because you dislike their politics is generally rude, but if their politics were prominent enough and caused harm then they're fair game because at that point it wasn't just an opinion or a thoughtless action, it was a deliberate choice they made to have that be part of their public life. Someone's death means you shouldn't be petty about their flaws, it doesn't absolve them of actual sins.

If someone posts "eh I don't care, never liked their work anyway" to someone's death then that's rude and unnecessary, someone's death is not the time to discuss how someone was bad at their job. It's disrespectful precisely because they were a human being who died and lived a real personal life. But posting about how they hurt others and why they were bad people is something entirely different because that is precisely about the kind of person they were as a human.
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#2536

Post by kongs_speech »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: January 4th, 2021, 6:35 pm
Torgo wrote: January 4th, 2021, 5:55 pm It's also not like KKD was Harvey Weinstein. I have never heard of these accusations before this thread, they haven't nearly Harvey's scale nor are they admitted to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Ki-du ... llegations
In 2018, two more women accused Kim of sexual assault.[15][16][17] Kim then filed false accusation suits and defamation suits against these accusers.[18]

In January 2019, the court [...] dismissed the sexual assault charge for lack of evidence. Kim subsequently sued the actress for false accusation.[19] The following month, Kim filed a lawsuit against a women’s rights group over “damages” caused by the group against him.[20]
So, another case of "We don't really know".
I'm sure there are enough other places to have a fundamental debate on "separate the art from the artist" (see OldAle). I'm just sad to see the source of his great films from 1996 to 2007 (+Moebius) gone, there was quite non other like his films, neither then or now. Will be hard to replace - will be missed as an artist.

Undecided on the rest, not what I wanted to debate now anyhow.
RBG said abuser, not sexual abuser and the part you cut out says "In January 2019, the court ordered Kim to pay a $4,450 (KRW 5 million) fine for the assault."

You can separate the art and the artist if you wish, but this thread is about the artists dying, not the art disappearing. Whatever arguments there are don't apply to a thread where posts are about people and not their art, even if the reason we know them and post about them in the first place is their art. The whole point of this thread is that these artists are people and mortal, just like the rest of us and didn't just create art but lived lives and interacted with people. And sometimes they were particularly bad people and shouldn't have that washed away just because they're dead.

Everyone has flaws, and it's true that focusing on those flaws in death is rude and unnecessary. But being hurtful to others is more than a flaw, especially when it's either chronic or flagrant. Calling out someone for being a drunk when they die is rude, calling them out for being a repeated drunk driver is not. Calling someone out for being temperamental is rude, calling them out for being an abuser is not. Calling someone out because you dislike their politics is generally rude, but if their politics were prominent enough and caused harm then they're fair game because at that point it wasn't just an opinion or a thoughtless action, it was a deliberate choice they made to have that be part of their public life. Someone's death means you shouldn't be petty about their flaws, it doesn't absolve them of actual sins.

If someone posts "eh I don't care, never liked their work anyway" to someone's death then that's rude and unnecessary, someone's death is not the time to discuss how someone was bad at their job. It's disrespectful precisely because they were a human being who died and lived a real personal life. But posting about how they hurt others and why they were bad people is something entirely different because that is precisely about the kind of person they were as a human.
I think you're pretty spot-on, there's not much here I disagree with, but I would like to point out regarding your last paragraph that the poster I was responding to did both. I take no issue whatsoever with "abusive asshole," which was pretty much also my first thought when I heard that Kim died, considering that I haven't seen his stuff and the allegations are the primary thing I know about him. I'm bothered, rather, by the petty swipe at the quality of his films. Not out of any respect to him, just the fans of his work. When people are upset about losing an artist, it's unnecessary to say that the art that person made sucked, even if they happened to be a horrible person. If the person making the negative statement is not overly familiar with the artist's work, that's even worse. It's certainly not a huge deal, just something that merits a bit of polite criticism.
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#2537

Post by RBG »

Right I've only seen two of his films didnt like them

Hey, if orgies of rape and violence are your thing, fine. I'm still happy he won't be making more
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#2538

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

kongs_speech wrote: January 4th, 2021, 6:46 pm I would like to point out regarding your last paragraph that the poster I was responding to did both.
I know, and I responded to that in the initial reply.

My post wasn't just about this particular case, but me laying out where I'm at in general on what I think is appropriate in this thread because this will certainly come up again at some point.
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#2539

Post by kongs_speech »

Now it feels kinda like you're shaming people for watching films, which is contrary to the purpose of a site called I Check Movies. Anybody can watch and even like any piece of art they want and it's not a reflection of their character, imo. I read the review you linked. I have never even heard of that particular Kim film, and I think I know why. It sounds hideous. Personally, I would not be comfortable watching that, just as I don't want anything to do with pinku. Depictions of rape are fine as long as it's tasteful and/or clearly depicted as terrible, but glorifying it isn't something I'd care to see. I see enough of that in our culture without also seeing it in films. That's just me, though. I don't think someone finding a film like that to be well-made inherently means that "orgies of rape and violence" are their "thing." There are exceptions, of course. If somebody saw a pink film and praised its eroticism, that indeed is a sign that you need to keep an eye on that person.
PeacefulAnarchy wrote: January 4th, 2021, 6:59 pm
kongs_speech wrote: January 4th, 2021, 6:46 pm I would like to point out regarding your last paragraph that the poster I was responding to did both.
I know, and I responded to that in the initial reply.

My post wasn't just about this particular case, but me laying out where I'm at in general on what I think is appropriate in this thread because this will certainly come up again at some point.
:cheers:
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#2540

Post by Torgo »

If someone posts "eh I don't care, never liked their work anyway" to someone's death then that's rude and unnecessary, someone's death is not the time to discuss how someone was bad at their job.
Yeah well, RBG has no idea of KKD's work and doesn't care about the artist, his death was just a welcome situation for RBG to lecture us on how to judge his case. To have so little insight and then appear to celebrate one's death ("at least...", "happy") is just very cheap. I'm not shocked or offended or anything, just a bit fascinated by how petty-minded some people will be.
We look back on a 23-year-career with about 24 movies, many of which were acclaimed and often also controversially debated in certain circles, one of the breakthrough figures for South Korea's cinema. I've started following his output in 2004 and kinda lost the attention by 2013, so I wasn't aware of this recent scandal and haven't seen the 2018 film. This case of abuse seems to be true and confirmed, and it's definitely disgraceful. Still my conclusion would be:
"...Kim, acclaimed director for more than two decades, controversial to many, with some masterpieces especially in his early work. Lost his steam in the later part of his career and ended it on a case of abuse. Might very much suck as a human being - shame about an artistically fruitful career. Will be missed as an director, probably less as a person."

Or you can just hop along to state "Yeah don't know much about him but I read this article that his latest film was a mess and some women accused him of abuse and sexual assault which should be true. Good he's gone now and won't bother us with his sick films anymore. Stop celebrating him, forget your experiences from 1996-2017, abuse abuse abuse."

RBG wrote: January 4th, 2021, 6:53 pm Right I've only seen two of his films didnt like them

Hey, if orgies of rape and violence are your thing, fine. I'm still happy he won't be making more
You seem to remember "Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter..." very well if your idea of his filmography is 'orgies of rape and violence', lmao :lol:
Haven't seen the 2018-film, can't say much about it, sorry.
But I guess I'm the weird person now. If a death note as minor as this one (KKD is really only relevant to arthouse circles and Asia film fans) makes you literally happy and that is your thing, we'll both be fine.

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: January 4th, 2021, 6:35 pm Whatever arguments there are don't apply to a thread where posts are about people and not their art, even if the reason we know them and post about them in the first place is their art. The whole point of this thread is that these artists are people and mortal, just like the rest of us and didn't just create art but lived lives and interacted with people. And sometimes they were particularly bad people and shouldn't have that washed away just because they're dead.
This is a perfectly nuanced sentiment, so the opposite of our debate's central post. I can live with that.
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#2541

Post by Mario Gaborović »

RBG wrote: January 4th, 2021, 6:53 pm Right I've only seen two of his films didnt like them

Hey, if orgies of rape and violence are your thing, fine. I'm still happy he won't be making more
I'm ok with orgies but less enthusiastic about rape and violence.
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#2542

Post by Torgo »

Mario Gaborović wrote: January 4th, 2021, 7:35 pm
RBG wrote: January 4th, 2021, 6:53 pm Right I've only seen two of his films didnt like them

Hey, if orgies of rape and violence are your thing, fine. I'm still happy he won't be making more
I'm ok with orgies but less enthusiastic about rape and violence.
This is a perfectly nuanced sentiment, I can live with that.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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#2543

Post by RBG »

Its true I have no use for misogynist film directors

I was mostly annoyed that a prominent woman director passed and y'all took no notice. But I'll stop now :rip:
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#2544

Post by rnilsson19 »

It took just one viewing of Pieta for me to realize that the director was a misogynist tosser and I've avoided his films ever since.
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#2545

Post by Torgo »

RBG wrote: January 4th, 2021, 8:10 pm Its true I have no use for misogynist film directors
Ok, cool. Is there a register for those or something? Won't be making the mistake again to watch and follow the works of someone who might be a dick on set. I need to know. Beforehand.
Could become tough with the Asian entertainment industry and the Japanese one in particular. :ph43r:
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#2546

Post by Pretentious Hipster »

rnilsson19 wrote: January 4th, 2021, 8:17 pm It took just one viewing of Pieta for me to realize that the director was a misogynist tosser and I've avoided his films ever since.
I remember thinking Pieta was the worst film ever... Then Moebius came in...
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#2547

Post by Pretentious Hipster »

Frankly I don't care about problematic stuff but I pirate them anyways lol. I just believe that most that do that aren't too consistent. Still, they are free to do so. Only thing that really turns me off are the posts I've seen and people in my household saying that not only do the creators have to be moral, but the art itself has to be as well, to the point where anything immoral has to be explicitly stated that it is immoral or else it is perpetuating the immoral acts.
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#2548

Post by Torgo »

Boy, I can't wait until Lars von Trier dies ..
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#2549

Post by kongs_speech »

Wasn't going to throw in my two cents this didn't really seem like the thread for it, but personally, I am okay with consuming art made by anyone, regardless of what they've done, because while I certainly understand other opinions on the matter, I feel like I'd be inconsistent if I took anything but an "all or nothing" stance. Roman Polanski (whose abuse is confirmed and admitted) can fuck off and eat dog shit forever, but he has made some incredible films and I'm not going to deny myself the ability to watch them. Charles Manson's music is kinda good from what I've heard. Even Gacy was a talented painter.
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#2550

Post by Dolwphin »

Torgo wrote: January 4th, 2021, 8:59 pm Boy, I can't wait until Lars von Trier dies ..
You mean that toxic Nazi? :lol:

Jean-Luc Godard I think will be a big explosion. I don't think he is misogynist myself, quite the opposite almost, but RBG is gonna PMC you know.
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#2551

Post by Dolwphin »

This Comment Have Been Censored Because It Does Not Follow Social Justice Orthodoxy
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#2552

Post by RBG »

Thx for reminding me why I dont come here anymore
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#2553

Post by OldAle1 »

RBG wrote: January 4th, 2021, 9:24 pm Thx for reminding me why I dont come here anymore
:(
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#2554

Post by kongs_speech »

Dolwphin wrote: January 4th, 2021, 9:06 pm
Torgo wrote: January 4th, 2021, 8:59 pm Boy, I can't wait until Lars von Trier dies ..
You mean that toxic Nazi? :lol:

Jean-Luc Godard I think will be a big explosion. I don't think he is misogynist myself, quite the opposite almost, but RBG is gonna PMC you know.
I've seen people unironically call Lars a Nazi because of his Cannes joke and I'm like "have you fucking seen any of his films?" Yeah, the guy who made Dogville is a Nazi... :lol:

I cannot promise that I wouldn't go off on anybody who attacked JLG in death.
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#2555

Post by RBG »

Wow jlg makes rape films?? I had no idea

I'm sorry ale, ur the best :$ the rest of you :finger:
icm + ltbxd

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#2556

Post by Torgo »

RBG wrote: January 4th, 2021, 9:24 pm Thx for reminding me why I dont come here anymore
Dunno, you're making a fully provocative comment on a RIP thread and have equally a handful of people defending your point and another handful repelling it. To me that sounds like a quota good enough to stay.
(But I don't know about any antecedents :huh: We never met.)
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#2557

Post by kongs_speech »

RBG wrote: January 4th, 2021, 9:47 pm Wow jlg makes rape films?? I had no idea

I'm sorry ale, ur the best :$ the rest of you :finger:
Never insulted you once, simply pointed out in a very polite and respectful manner that you were being rude despite the fact that I concur with your assessment of Kim as a person, but okay. :shrug: Classy.
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Post by OldAle1 »

RBG wrote: January 4th, 2021, 9:47 pm

I'm sorry ale, ur the best :$ the rest of you :finger:
Nah, I just don't show my dark misogynistic side so much - or I'm aware that I have it and am fighting it. Also don't think that many people here are truly misogynistic or hateful, but I think a lot of people are (maybe surprisingly) just not that aware of how they come across in their defense of bad human beings that happen to be (arguably) great artists.

As for Kim in particular, I also have seen just two films, 3-Iron which I really liked, and don't remember feeling had any morally repugnant content, and Spring, Summer... which is significantly more problematic, though I did like it overall despite it's issues. Not enough love for them overall to make me prioritize seeing more from him in any case.
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#2559

Post by rnilsson19 »

I don't think Polanski is a good comparison as his crime hasn't really been reflected in his work afaik.

In 2017, an anonymous actress came forward with allegations that she had been assaulted by Kim on the set of his film Moebius. She claimed that he had hit her several times before pressuring her to participate in a sex scene she had not previously agreed to.[
That feels like it could have been a scene in one of his films tbh.
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