The Rise and Fall of Studio Ghibli [TALKING IMAGES]

[Onderhond]

I'm not sure how long ago you checked, but the full trilogy is available with English subs (not officially, but fansubs). The Anne of Green Gables movie is available as well.

Also the Sherlock Hound movie is available (based on episodes directed by Miyazaki).

Where did you find them?

To quote a seedy anime: The net is vast and infinite

I've only seen the Anne of Green Gables film. It's noticeable that it's extracted from a series and it's really aimed at younger kids, but if you like Takahata it's nice to see some of his elements already make an appearance, however small they might be.

[mjf314]

@St. Gloede: I sent you a pm.

I've seen the Sherlock Hound movie. I haven't seen the Heidi or Anne movies because I'd rather watch the series first, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.

[weirdboy]

Ghibli feels like the only studio making stuff that was not a manga first.
I realize that is an exaggeration, but it is not much of one.

[Fergenaprido]

I've long had an aversion to anime, but I don't know why, and Ghibli's really been the only anime I've gotten into, though lately I've started branching out into other directors. I think part of it was my perception was that anime was just kiddie action tv shows that held 0 interest to me.

I get Onderhond's frustration that Ghibli's success stifled the industry, but I don't think that the studio should be held accountable for that, but rather on the financiers who weren't willing to fund other ventures (I wasn't clear where you were placing the "blame").

Also interesting (and not touched upon) is that Grave of the Fireflies was intended as a critique on its main character, which hasn't been perceived by most people as such. The original story is (semi?)autobiographical, with the writer representing the brother in the story. He felt guilty that his pride and stubbornness cost the life of his little sister in the end. I think that's a much more interesting take then the usual "war is bad and oh those poor kids" take found in Western critiques of the film.

Thanks for bringing this up. The main reason why I don't think Grave of the Fireflies is as amazing as everyone else seems to is that the kid is such a brat. I didn't realize that it was intended that way nor that there were autobiographical elements to the film - it just seemed like glorifying the selfishness of this kid, and all the "war is bad and oh those poor kids" reviews didn't jive with what I saw onscreen. Maybe I'll actually give this a revisit and see if my opinion improves.

And as to the OP questions....

What is the first Studio Ghibli film you saw, what do you remember and how did it impact you?
First one was Spirited Away back in January '05. Didn't impact me; I thought it was pretty good, but nothing spectacular. I saw the English dub, and gave it a 7.8 (or at least that was the score I gave it when I updated my ratings a few years later).

Has your impression changed over the years?
They've done some great films, and some okay films. I've seen 15 Ghibli and Ghibli-adjacent films, with a low of 6.8 and a high of 8.8. The first 10 I saw were all dubbed in English, though, and since then I've only watched the original Japanese with subtitles. I plan to go back and rewatch them all in Japanese. I've read that Miyazaki prefers English audiences to see the English-language versions, but I find them a tad too juvenile and slightly off-kilter when compared to the Japanese versions (I've had a few where I've been able to compare scenes in both, and the English dialogue can be totally different from the subtitles). Plus, some of the stunt casting of famous voices throws me off and takes me out of the film's atmosphere, losing it's sense of wonder (I remember this especially with Mononoke and Gillian Anderson).

Who do you prefer Miyazaki or Takahata? (and why?)
Miyazaki. Nothing special, I've simply rated his films higher, on average (7.98 vs 7.40).

What is your favourite Studio Ghibli film?
Nausicaä is an 8.8, but it's not technically Ghibli. So Howl's Moving Castle would be it, at 8.4 Those are my only two favourites, for the time being.

Are any of the non-Miyazaki/Takahata films actually great?
From Up on Poppy Hill was great.

Do you agree with Matthieu that they never wanted/needed an heir and it was all about Miyazaki and Takahata?
No opinion.

What do you think will happen to Ghibli in the future? Is there even a future after Hayao Miyazaki?
The studio will likely still exist as long as his son wants to continue, but they may not see the same critical/financial success that they've had in the past.

Will Miyazaki be able to stop? Can we expect more films?
I think he'll probably make another film or two.

What are your early impressions of Earwig and the Witch/the move to 3D?
I haven't seen anything about it yet, and am only barely aware of the project. No real opinion.

My Ghibli viewings, in chronological order.

Date - Rating - Title - Director
2005-01-07 - 7.8 - Spirited Away (dubbed) - Miyazaki
2005-04-04 - 8.2 - Princess Mononoke (dubbed) - Miyazaki
2005-12-27 - 8.8 - Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind (dubbed) - Miyazaki
2007-08-16 - 6.8 - Pom Poko (dubbed) - Takahata
2009-08-18 - 8.4 - Howl's Moving Castle (dubbed) - Miyazaki
2009-12-17 - 7.2 - Castle in the Sky (dubbed) - Miyazaki - the only Miyazaki I was disappointed by
2010-06-28 - 7.8 - My Neighbour Totoro (dubbed) - Miyazaki
2010-09-10 - 7.8 - Kiki's Delivery Service (dubbed) - Miyazaki
2013-01-23 - 7.4 - Grave of the Fireflies (dubbed) - Takahata
2014-12-16 - 7.8 - Porco Rosso (dubbed) - Miyazaki
2015-07-18 - 7.8 - The Cat Returns - Morita
2016-01-23 - 8.0 - From Up on Poppy Hill - G. Miyazaki
2016-09-03 - 7.8 - Whisper of the Heart - Kondō
2018-03-03 - 8.0 - The Tale of the Princess Kaguya - Takahata
2018-03-13 - 8.2 - Spirited Away (rewatch) - Miyazaki
2020-12-03 - 7.6 - Ponyo - Miyazaki

When it comes to non-Ghibli anime, I've seen another 14 films, with mixed results (ranked):
8.4 - Tokyo Godfathers (Kon)
8.2 - The Boy and the Beast (Hosoda)
8.2 - Summer Wars (Hosoda)
8.2 - Your Name (Shinkai)
8.0 - Akira (Ōtomo)
8.0 - Perfect Blue (Kon)
8.0 - Wolf Children (Hosoda)
8.0 - Five Centimetres per Second (Shinkai)
7.4 - Children Who Chase Lost Voices (Shinkai)
7.4 - Garden of Words (Shinkai)
7.2 - Cowboy Bebop (Watanabe, dubbed)
6.8 - Vampire Hunter D: II (Kawajiri, dubbed)
6.6 - Vampire Hunter D: I (Ashida, dubbed)
4.8 - Angel's Egg (Oshii)

P.S. One of the mods may want to update the site header link - it still highlights the podcast from three months ago.

[Onderhond]

Ghibli feels like the only studio making stuff that was not a manga first.
I realize that is an exaggeration, but it is not much of one.

Studios like Studio Trigger or Studio 4°C :have quite a bit of original production. Or at least productions where the manga/anime appear simultaneously.

[weirdboy]

I just listened to the first 30 seconds of podcast,and WTF

The name is pronounced like "Jiburi"

It is written
スタジオジブリ

NOT

スタジオギブリ


If you could read katakana it would be plainly obvious you are still butchering the name.

[weirdboy]

p.s. I expect a retraction and apology next podcast ;-)

[St. Gloede]

I just listened to the first 30 seconds of podcast,and WTF

The name is pronounced like "Jiburi"

It is written
スタジオジブリ

NOT

スタジオギブリ


If you could read katakana it would be plainly obvious you are still butchering the name.

That's what I was saying.

Can't read Japanese so I don't understand the difference you are pointing out is.

[St. Gloede]

Date - Rating - Title - Director
2005-01-07 - 7.8 - Spirited Away (dubbed) - Miyazaki
2005-04-04 - 8.2 - Princess Mononoke (dubbed) - Miyazaki
2005-12-27 - 8.8 - Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind (dubbed) - Miyazaki
2007-08-16 - 6.8 - Pom Poko (dubbed) - Takahata
2009-08-18 - 8.4 - Howl's Moving Castle (dubbed) - Miyazaki
2009-12-17 - 7.2 - Castle in the Sky (dubbed) - Miyazaki - the only Miyazaki I was disappointed by
2010-06-28 - 7.8 - My Neighbour Totoro (dubbed) - Miyazaki
2010-09-10 - 7.8 - Kiki's Delivery Service (dubbed) - Miyazaki
2013-01-23 - 7.4 - Grave of the Fireflies (dubbed) - Takahata
2014-12-16 - 7.8 - Porco Rosso (dubbed) - Miyazaki
2015-07-18 - 7.8 - The Cat Returns - Morita
2016-01-23 - 8.0 - From Up on Poppy Hill - G. Miyazaki
2016-09-03 - 7.8 - Whisper of the Heart - Kondō
2018-03-03 - 8.0 - The Tale of the Princess Kaguya - Takahata
2018-03-13 - 8.2 - Spirited Away (rewatch) - Miyazaki
2020-12-03 - 7.6 - Ponyo - Miyazaki

When it comes to non-Ghibli anime, I've seen another 14 films, with mixed results (ranked):
8.4 - Tokyo Godfathers (Kon)
8.2 - The Boy and the Beast (Hosoda)
8.2 - Summer Wars (Hosoda)
8.2 - Your Name (Shinkai)
8.0 - Akira (Ōtomo)
8.0 - Perfect Blue (Kon)
8.0 - Wolf Children (Hosoda)
8.0 - Five Centimetres per Second (Shinkai)
7.4 - Children Who Chase Lost Voices (Shinkai)
7.4 - Garden of Words (Shinkai)
7.2 - Cowboy Bebop (Watanabe, dubbed)
6.8 - Vampire Hunter D: II (Kawajiri, dubbed)
6.6 - Vampire Hunter D: I (Ashida, dubbed)
4.8 - Angel's Egg (Oshii)

P.S. One of the mods may want to update the site header link - it still highlights the podcast from three months ago.

I have never seen a Ghibli dubbed, except the few times it is autoset to English and I have to change the language and go back. Those few seconds have been imprinted in my mind though.

I don't know what it is, but even if done by professionals - like the Disney releases (though again, only seen 2 or so for 2-3 lines of dialogue) just felt too off.

[weirdboy]

I just listened to the first 30 seconds of podcast,and WTF

The name is pronounced like "Jiburi"

It is written
スタジオジブリ

NOT

スタジオギブリ


If you could read katakana it would be plainly obvious you are still butchering the name.

That's what I was saying.

Can't read Japanese so I don't understand the difference you are pointing out is.

JIburi

not

GIburi

Do you get the gist?

[St. Gloede]

No.

[St. Gloede]

Went back to listen, and I see, much closer to Giburi than Jiburi.

[Onderhond]

I get Onderhond's frustration that Ghibli's success stifled the industry, but I don't think that the studio should be held accountable for that, but rather on the financiers who weren't willing to fund other ventures (I wasn't clear where you were placing the "blame").

In a later post I tried to clarify this by saying I also don't think Ghibli bears direct blame or should've done anything different, but maybe you've missed that one

The only thing you can say about Ghibli is that they've never really bothered with the responsibilities of being an industry leader. When you catch some of their shorts then it's clear there's enough creativity there to explore other styles and topics, but apart from Takahata nobody was ever allowed to. The same story goes for a studio like Pixar by the way. It's an odd situation where they may not bear the responsibility, but they do bear part of the blame. I think Modest Heroes is a good example of the kind of anime we missed out on.

Then again, who is to say that their reputation may not have suffered from such ventures.

Thanks for bringing this up. The main reason why I don't think Grave of the Fireflies is as amazing as everyone else seems to is that the kid is such a brat. I didn't realize that it was intended that way nor that there were autobiographical elements to the film - it just seemed like glorifying the selfishness of this kid

Yeah, I think the way we treat/look at kids in the West has a lot to do with that. I don't see how the selfishness of Seita was glorified though,

Spoiler

as the death of his sister is a direct consequence of his actions

, but maybe if you watch the film from the "war is bad, poor kids" angle it makes more sense.

Looking at your score I don't think I can give you too many recommends, I'm not the biggest fan of The Boy and the Beast and actively dislike Tokyo Godfathers, but seeing your scores are pretty decent I would say that seeking out the odd anime, especially the more serious ones (like In This Corner of the World, maybe Jin-Ro), could yield some pleasant surprises. Oh, and no more dubs please

[Onderhond]

I have never seen a Ghibli dubbed, except the few times it is autoset to English and I have to change the language and go back. Those few seconds have been imprinted in my mind though.

I do this with all the anime I watch (usually go back to watch the US trailer) and it never ceases to amaze me how much difference a dub makes. It's almost akin to changing the entire cinematography of a film. I even gave up a bit of purism (i.e. always watch a film in its original language) for the couple of animes that were actually produced in English (like Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust).

Edit: oh, and also, should it not be clear yet, kudos for doing this episode!

[Teproc]

I don't read it as being as an indictment of the kid (because he is, after all, a kid) as much as a cautionary tale in terms of trying to protect the innocence of childhood at all costs. Because that is essentially what is going on here. This kid has brutally lost his innocence, is devastated by it and tries at all cost to preserve his little sister from having to face the harsh reality, which brings them to their demise. It's a tragedy, not an indictment.

[weirdboy]

I have never seen a Ghibli dubbed, except the few times it is autoset to English and I have to change the language and go back. Those few seconds have been imprinted in my mind though.

I do this with all the anime I watch (usually go back to watch the US trailer) and it never ceases to amaze me how much difference a dub makes. It's almost akin to changing the entire cinematography of a film. I even gave up a bit of purism (i.e. always watch a film in its original language) for the couple of animes that were actually produced in English (like Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust).

Edit: oh, and also, should it not be clear yet, kudos for doing this episode!

How do you feel about all those Italian films that are basically designed as dubbed films from the outset?

[mjf314]

When it comes to non-Ghibli anime, I've seen another 14 films, with mixed results (ranked):
8.4 - Tokyo Godfathers (Kon)
8.2 - The Boy and the Beast (Hosoda)
8.2 - Summer Wars (Hosoda)
8.2 - Your Name (Shinkai)
8.0 - Akira (Ōtomo)
8.0 - Perfect Blue (Kon)
8.0 - Wolf Children (Hosoda)
8.0 - Five Centimetres per Second (Shinkai)
7.4 - Children Who Chase Lost Voices (Shinkai)
7.4 - Garden of Words (Shinkai)
7.2 - Cowboy Bebop (Watanabe, dubbed)
6.8 - Vampire Hunter D: II (Kawajiri, dubbed)
6.6 - Vampire Hunter D: I (Ashida, dubbed)
4.8 - Angel's Egg (Oshii)

A few recommendations for you:

Since you seem to like Kon, I recommend Millennium Actress.
Since you seem to like Hosoda, I recommend The Girl Who Leapt Through Time.
I also recommend Ghost in the Shell, just because it's the most popular anime film that you haven't seen.

[Onderhond]

I don't read it as being as an indictment of the kid (because he is, after all, a kid) as much as a cautionary tale in terms of trying to protect the innocence of childhood at all costs. Because that is essentially what is going on here. This kid has brutally lost his innocence, is devastated by it and tries at all cost to preserve his little sister from having to face the harsh reality, which brings them to their demise. It's a tragedy, not an indictment.

Insights into the feelings and interpretations of the author

How do you feel about all those Italian films that are basically designed as dubbed films from the outset?

I don't like mismatched/post dubs in general. I find them distracting (same with HK films).

[Fergenaprido]

I have never seen a Ghibli dubbed, except the few times it is autoset to English and I have to change the language and go back. Those few seconds have been imprinted in my mind though.

I don't know what it is, but even if done by professionals - like the Disney releases (though again, only seen 2 or so for 2-3 lines of dialogue) just felt too off.

I have never seen a Ghibli dubbed, except the few times it is autoset to English and I have to change the language and go back. Those few seconds have been imprinted in my mind though.

I do this with all the anime I watch (usually go back to watch the US trailer) and it never ceases to amaze me how much difference a dub makes. It's almost akin to changing the entire cinematography of a film. I even gave up a bit of purism (i.e. always watch a film in its original language) for the couple of animes that were actually produced in English (like Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust).

All the dubs I saw were when I didn't have a choice, either because it was a group watch (the 3 non-Ghibli dubs + Pompoko were all films that a group of friends introduced to me during our annual meetups), or because it was the only version available. Since then, I've actively put off watching dubs, which is the reason I still haven't seen The Girl Who Leapt Through Time, My Neighbours the Yamadas, and The Wind Rises, among others. For The Boy and the Beast it was surprisingly difficult to track down the original Japanese version.

I think the only time now I would willingly watch a dubbed film would be with younger kids - expecting them to read subtitles is a bit much, in my opinion.

I get Onderhond's frustration that Ghibli's success stifled the industry, but I don't think that the studio should be held accountable for that, but rather on the financiers who weren't willing to fund other ventures (I wasn't clear where you were placing the "blame").

In a later post I tried to clarify this by saying I also don't think Ghibli bears direct blame or should've done anything different, but maybe you've missed that one

The only thing you can say about Ghibli is that they've never really bothered with the responsibilities of being an industry leader. When you catch some of their shorts then it's clear there's enough creativity there to explore other styles and topics, but apart from Takahata nobody was ever allowed to. The same story goes for a studio like Pixar by the way. It's an odd situation where they may not bear the responsibility, but they do bear part of the blame. I think Modest Heroes is a good example of the kind of anime we missed out on.

Then again, who is to say that their reputation may not have suffered from such ventures.

Yes, I did miss that later post, sorry.

Thanks for bringing this up. The main reason why I don't think Grave of the Fireflies is as amazing as everyone else seems to is that the kid is such a brat. I didn't realize that it was intended that way nor that there were autobiographical elements to the film - it just seemed like glorifying the selfishness of this kid

Yeah, I think the way we treat/look at kids in the West has a lot to do with that. I don't see how the selfishness of Seita was glorified though,

Spoiler

as the death of his sister is a direct consequence of his actions

, but maybe if you watch the film from the "war is bad, poor kids" angle it makes more sense.

Looking at your score I don't think I can give you too many recommends, I'm not the biggest fan of The Boy and the Beast and actively dislike Tokyo Godfathers, but seeing your scores are pretty decent I would say that seeking out the odd anime, especially the more serious ones (like In This Corner of the World, maybe Jin-Ro), could yield some pleasant surprises. Oh, and no more dubs please

I don't read it as being as an indictment of the kid (because he is, after all, a kid) as much as a cautionary tale in terms of trying to protect the innocence of childhood at all costs. Because that is essentially what is going on here. This kid has brutally lost his innocence, is devastated by it and tries at all cost to preserve his little sister from having to face the harsh reality, which brings them to their demise. It's a tragedy, not an indictment.

Insights into the feelings and interpretations of the author

How do you feel about all those Italian films that are basically designed as dubbed films from the outset?

I don't like mismatched/post dubs in general. I find them distracting (same with HK films).

A few recommendations for you:

Since you seem to like Kon, I recommend Millennium Actress.
Since you seem to like Hosoda, I recommend The Girl Who Leapt Through Time.
I also recommend Ghost in the Shell, just because it's the most popular anime film that you haven't seen.

Thanks for the article on Fireflies.

And thanks both for your recommendations. I'll try and track down the ones you mentioned.
I don't actively like Kon - I watched Perfect Blue because I wanted to get further on the animation list, and it was the easiest one to find online. Only after did I realize it was directed by the same director as Godfathers. But I'll keep Actress in mind.
I do like Hosoda, however, and each film warms me up to him more and more. I especially like how each story is inspired by a different part of his childhood/family.

[flavo5000]

I'm a big fan of the works of Masaaki Yuasa as well. He has a very distinct voice compared to a lot of the anime industry (perhaps too distinct for a lot of people). His TV series work is in general better than his movies though (not that his movies are bad, just that he seems to work better with a more expanded narrative).

[Onderhond]

I'm a big fan of the works of Masaaki Yuasa as well. He has a very distinct voice compared to a lot of the anime industry (perhaps too distinct for a lot of people). His TV series work is in general better than his movies though (not that his movies are bad, just that he seems to work better with a more expanded narrative).

Maybe his older TV work (which I still need to see), but his Netflix series don't even come close to his film output.

[mjf314]

I'm a big fan of the works of Masaaki Yuasa as well. He has a very distinct voice compared to a lot of the anime industry (perhaps too distinct for a lot of people). His TV series work is in general better than his movies though (not that his movies are bad, just that he seems to work better with a more expanded narrative).

Maybe his older TV work (which I still need to see), but his Netflix series don't even come close to his film output.

Based on what I've seen so far, I prefer his TV work.

Here's my Yuasa ranking:

The Tatami Galaxy (TV)
Night is Short, Walk on Girl (film)
Kaiba (TV)
Mind Game (film)
Ping Pong: The Animation (TV)
Lu Over the Wall (film)
Happy Machine (short film, Genius Party Segment)
Kick-Heart (short film)

[Onderhond]

Yeah, but you mostly watch TV stuff anyway I should try Tatami Galaxy or Kaiba I guess.

[mjf314]

Actually I've seen more anime movies than series. I've seen about 268 anime movies (not counting shorts), and about 63 anime TV series.

But recently, I've been watching mainly series.

The Tatami Galaxy is very similar to Night is Short, Walk On Girl, so if you like one you'll probably like the other.

[Onderhond]

The Tatami Galaxy is very similar to Night is Short, Walk On Girl, so if you like one you'll probably like the other.

Yeah, I'm aware they're (unofficially?) related. But just the format and length is going to put the series at a serious disadvantage.

[flavo5000]

I'm a big fan of the works of Masaaki Yuasa as well. He has a very distinct voice compared to a lot of the anime industry (perhaps too distinct for a lot of people). His TV series work is in general better than his movies though (not that his movies are bad, just that he seems to work better with a more expanded narrative).

Maybe his older TV work (which I still need to see), but his Netflix series don't even come close to his film output.

Really I think the divide in quality may be with his older work vs more recent work. Tokyo Sinks 2020, Lu over the Wall and Ride the Wave were all just ok to be but series like Kaiba, Tatami Galaxy and Ping Pong the Animation are some of my all-time favorites as well as the movie Mind Game. Yuasa's newer stuff seems to be him trying to be more commercial but ending up in this weird middle ground. Like Lu over the Wall felt like Yuasa trying to do Hosoda and Ride the Wave felt like Yuasa by way of Shinkai. But he's just too weird at heart to really pull off either one completely.

[flavo5000]

The Tatami Galaxy is very similar to Night is Short, Walk On Girl, so if you like one you'll probably like the other.

Yeah, I'm aware they're (unofficially?) related. But just the format and length is going to put the series at a serious disadvantage.

I'd say more than unofficially... Hard to explain though if you haven't seen Tatami Galaxy.

[St. Gloede]

Really I think the divide in quality may be with his older work vs more recent work. Tokyo Sinks 2020, Lu over the Wall and Ride the Wave were all just ok to be but series like Kaiba, Tatami Galaxy and Ping Pong the Animation are some of my all-time favorites as well as the movie Mind Game. Yuasa's newer stuff seems to be him trying to be more commercial but ending up in this weird middle ground. Like Lu over the Wall felt like Yuasa trying to do Hosoda and Ride the Wave felt like Yuasa by way of Shinkai. But he's just too weird at heart to really pull off either one completely.

Ha, nice one!

Agree completely on Lu and Wave, but cute disappointments - but Night is Short is his best film IMO, leaving me torn.