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Talking Images: [Ep 14 NOW AVAILABLE] The Decline of Film Forums

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Re: Talking Images: [Episode 3 NOW AVAILABLE] The History of Spanish Horror Cinema

#121

Post by St. Gloede » May 25th, 2020, 10:37 pm

Lonewolf2003 wrote:
May 25th, 2020, 1:42 pm
I listened to the two last episodes this weekend. I liked them. Liked the fourth the most of all episode. Those kind of episodes which focuses on a genre, country, movement or director interest me the most, more than discussions and review of one particular movie. The discussion about Platform interested me less. I was pleasantly surprised by the amount of knowledge many brought to the discussion, which is what I look for in a podcast. Simple discussion about "dude that movie is awesome, no bro it sucks" don't interest me much. Luckily you guys stayed away from that mostly so far.

Another thing; don't be too afraid of spoilers. Of course try to keep away from mentioning the ending of casual mentioned movie. But when discussing a movie in depth, like Platform, I think you can discuss the whole movie in depth. People that haven't seen the movie and don't want get spoiled can turn the podcast of, or skip that part. Discussions often get much better that way. Of course do give a spoiler warning when they are coming up

Btw, I think the decline of Italian and Spanish horror in the late 70s and 80s has to do with the decline in cinema attendance and the rise of tv (and later vhs) in those countries, where tv took of later than the US of North-Western Europe
Thank you so much for the feedback, Lonewolf!

You actually swayed an argument we were having about spoilers, we were really worried about including any in the first 5, but we will do a dedicated spoiler section (when suited) in future film discussions.

I'm really happy you liked the fourth episode the most. It is without a doubt the episode we put the most work in, and I'm especially happy you liked the first 3/4s the most as we felt the middle section became more educational than fun, and we were afraid people would respond negatively. Definitely encouraging!

(And thank you for the btw too, very believable factor - though these films were also broadly made to be dubbed and shipped off for the US and Northern European markets)

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#122

Post by Lonewolf2003 » May 26th, 2020, 9:27 am

St. Gloede wrote:
May 25th, 2020, 10:37 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote:
May 25th, 2020, 1:42 pm
I listened to the two last episodes this weekend. I liked them. Liked the fourth the most of all episode. Those kind of episodes which focuses on a genre, country, movement or director interest me the most, more than discussions and review of one particular movie. The discussion about Platform interested me less. I was pleasantly surprised by the amount of knowledge many brought to the discussion, which is what I look for in a podcast. Simple discussion about "dude that movie is awesome, no bro it sucks" don't interest me much. Luckily you guys stayed away from that mostly so far.

Another thing; don't be too afraid of spoilers. Of course try to keep away from mentioning the ending of casual mentioned movie. But when discussing a movie in depth, like Platform, I think you can discuss the whole movie in depth. People that haven't seen the movie and don't want get spoiled can turn the podcast of, or skip that part. Discussions often get much better that way. Of course do give a spoiler warning when they are coming up

Btw, I think the decline of Italian and Spanish horror in the late 70s and 80s has to do with the decline in cinema attendance and the rise of tv (and later vhs) in those countries, where tv took of later than the US of North-Western Europe
You actually swayed an argument we were having about spoilers, we were really worried about including any in the first 5, but we will do a dedicated spoiler section (when suited) in future film discussions.

I'm glad I could be of help. I'm of opinion you can't have a good discussion f.e. in the next episode about the Rohmer series if you'r going to be afraid to spoil the movies, that hammers the discussions too much. People should talk freely. I think an episode like that isn't anyhow for people that haven't seen the movies and really don't want to be spoilered. And neither is an episode about Spanish horror for people who haven't seen the most popular, biggest Spanish horror movies.

Like I said I like my podcasts to be (also) educational and informative, just personal opinions of movies interest me less. Than frankly this podcast would become just the thirteen in a dozen movie podcast.

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#123

Post by Onderhond » May 26th, 2020, 9:31 am

Lonewolf2003 wrote:
May 26th, 2020, 9:27 am
And neither is an episode about Spanish horror for people who haven't seen the most popular, biggest Spanish horror movies.
It sounds exactly for people who haven't seen many Spanish horror films, no?
I agree that the in-depth film discussions shouldn't need to worry too much about spoilers, but if you're going to talk about eras/genres/countries, I think most of the general discussion should be spoiler-free.

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#124

Post by Lonewolf2003 » May 26th, 2020, 10:16 am

Onderhond wrote:
May 26th, 2020, 9:31 am
Lonewolf2003 wrote:
May 26th, 2020, 9:27 am
And neither is an episode about Spanish horror for people who haven't seen the most popular, biggest Spanish horror movies.
It sounds exactly for people who haven't seen many Spanish horror films, no?
I agree that the in-depth film discussions shouldn't need to worry too much about spoilers, but if you're going to talk about eras/genres/countries, I think most of the general discussion should be spoiler-free.
It sounds like an episode for people with interest in Spanish horror, who therefor might not have seen many Spanish horror, but at least some and most prob the most famous ones. I do agree that k most of the general discussion should be spoiler-free. But f.e. in that episode when the disscusion dives deeper into movies as [REC] I think you don't have to worry too much about spoilers.

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#125

Post by Onderhond » May 26th, 2020, 10:27 am

Lonewolf2003 wrote:
May 26th, 2020, 10:16 am
It sounds like an episode for people with interest in Spanish horror, who therefor might not have seen many Spanish horror, but at least some and most prob the most famous ones. I do agree that k most of the general discussion should be spoiler-free. But f.e. in that episode when the disscusion dives deeper into movies as [REC] I think you don't have to worry too much about spoilers.
I don't think the average Spanish gorehound is going to learn much from the episode, to me it felt more introductory than a real deep dive. But with episodes like that, you're always going to attract two types of people. Those who have already seen lots of Spanish horror, and those who have a latent interest and are looking for a way in.

The biggest problem with podcasts imo is that they lack clear structure. The only way to skip past spoilers it to randomly click on the timeline hope you're past the spoiler part. It's been possible for a long time to add markings to these timelines, so you can skip to specific parts (like you would in a text), but that never really took off and it's a feature I'm seeing less and less.

Maybe it's an option to add some sort of timetable in the description, with possible spoiler warnings?
Last edited by Onderhond on May 26th, 2020, 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#126

Post by Lonewolf2003 » May 26th, 2020, 11:33 am

Onderhond wrote:
May 26th, 2020, 10:27 am
Lonewolf2003 wrote:
May 26th, 2020, 10:16 am
It sounds like an episode for people with interest in Spanish horror, who therefor might not have seen many Spanish horror, but at least some and most prob the most famous ones. I do agree that k most of the general discussion should be spoiler-free. But f.e. in that episode when the disscusion dives deeper into movies as [REC] I think you don't have to worry too much about spoilers.
I don't think the average Spanish gorehound is going to learn much from the episode, to me it felt more introductory than a real deep dive. But with episodes like that, you're always going to attract two types of people. Those who have already seen lots of Spanish horror, and those who have a latent interest and are looking for a way in.

The biggest problem with podcasts imo is that they lack clear structure. The only way to skip past spoilers it to randomly click on the timeline hope you're past the spoiler part. It's been possible for a long time to add markings to these timelines, so you can skip to specific parts (like you would in a text), but that never really took off and it's a feature I'm seeing less and less.

Maybe it's an option to add some sort of timetable in the description, which possible spoiler warnings?
That is a good suggestion

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#127

Post by St. Gloede » May 26th, 2020, 4:26 pm

FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!

In this episode we cover two great existential questions:

1. What is your all-time favourite film?
2. And why?

Listen here: https://talkingimages.sounder.fm/show/talking-images
Or here: https://open.spotify.com/show/3GhRXnb6OzOnfae2Uvkvus

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#128

Post by blocho » May 26th, 2020, 10:30 pm

I really enjoyed this one. Best one yet.

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#129

Post by Lilarcor » May 27th, 2020, 9:58 am

Finished listening to the latest episode, and I concur! The passion and confidence came through and it was an easy and enjoyable listen. Two thumbs up!

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#130

Post by cinewest » May 27th, 2020, 1:39 pm

Just finished listening to the latest podcast on "favorite films," and it sounds like you guys are really getting the feel for how to do these. In terms of the production, it did feel like it tailed off at the end, and I think both the introduction (a catchy attention grabber to establish theme and mood) and conclusion (I thought there could have been more commentary from others on the last choice(s), as well as a more satisfying wrap up) can be improved upon.

Don't get me wrong, it was very enjoyable as is as a kind of roundtable film chat among friends, and my comments above only apply if you are interested in giving it a more professional feel. I listen at times to film comment's podcasts, and think that the main thing that differentiates theirs is not the commentary (yours was as interesting as enjoyable), but the practice and production, both of which I'm sure will continue to improve on Talking Images (great title, by the way).

I've seen all of the choices spoken about except for Videodrome, which I've been meaning to get to for ages. I have mixed feelings about Cronenberg, I guess, and his style and sensibility doesn't really speak to me, though I'll admit that he's created some very memorable scenes over the years. I did enjoy listening to Sol talk about his love for both the film and director, and always appreciate a passionate intelligent promotion whether it matches my own taste or not, and I have often experienced a kind of empathetic enthusiasm watching films that aren't usually my cup of tea with friends who are passionate about them

As for the other films mentioned, I think they are all standouts, and both Seven Samurai and Last Year at Marienbad have been among my own favorites at certain points in time. I wrote a term paper at university on the latter, and loved Magnificent Seven as a kid, until I saw Seven Samurai, which might be the best "Western" of all time.

As for my own favorites, I posted a bunch after the first podcast in talking about what inspired me to get into film, but I left off speaking about new inspirations towards the end of the 90's. As I consider filmmaking in the 2000's to be one of the watershed decades (perhaps second only to the 1960's in terms of the number and variety of outstanding cinema), I've decided to choose one from that decade and one from the most recent.

In consideration of the 2000's, my first inclinations were to choose In the Mood For Love, or something by Michael Haneke, who reeled off one masterpiece after another for more than a decade. I've always had a thing for tragic yet transformative romances (Hiroshima Mon Amor was my favorite film for years), and though Mood for Love relit that torch for me, it has probably suffered from overexposure, given its appraisal among 21st century cinema.
As for Haneke, it's really hard to choose my favorite of his, and none of them seized my heart the way Andrey Zvyagintsev's The Return did when I saw it theatrically without knowing much about it or the director back in 2003. Absolutely stunning to me, from the first shots until the last. This film does everything with the medium that has made it such an inspiration to me, whether we are talking about scripting, imagery, performances, sound, editing, et. all towards the exploration of its thematic content, and ability to completely sweep me up in its reality.
The Return is essentially about the fractured relationship between an absent father and his two sons who make a mysterious and life changing journey together that tragically concludes without revealing what is most important to everyone involved. A different kind of tragic yet transformative film about love, or in this case, its withholding.

For the 2010's, I'll go in a different direction and nominate Holy Motors: In one sense it is a homage to movies, Carax's own included. It works on so many levels at once that I look back on it in amazement: Every "job" is a reflection of the variety of the roles that are played in the movies, and that we also play in our lives, every skit, a brilliant, unique take on cinematic stories and visual art forms that we are familiar with. At the same time, the film is full of contemporary, surreal twists and commentaries, or juxtapositions that border on genius.
A tour de force performance piece by Denis Levant, it is also an ode to a variety of stories and characters. But more than anything, i saw the "film characters" as symbolic of the different "parts we play" (metaphorically) in the course of our own lives, even, sometimes, during the course of each and every day.
Last edited by cinewest on May 27th, 2020, 1:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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#131

Post by AdamH » May 27th, 2020, 1:50 pm

Thanks for the feedback cinewest, that's very useful. Could you elaborate a little bit more on what you think would improve the production?

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#132

Post by St. Gloede » May 27th, 2020, 2:16 pm

Fantastic feedback, Cinewest.

I agree with all your critique, handed, we have the same feeling.

The main issue with this episode is that it was a long time as most had seen the others' top favourites, and the episode would without a doubt have been so much better if each favourite got A Clockwork Orange style feedback. As such the maximum potential was lowered going in as the topic was chosen to work as an easy topic (and with the next one) as we prepare for the Rohmer podcast: (All of us are rewatching the 6 films in the Comedies and Proverbs Cycle and doing additional research/reading moving up to it).

We are definitely looking to make this increasingly professional in terms of presentation and finish, which is also why we are asking for more people to help out with editing and other behind the scenes work. Currently we have 5 regular podcasters (and 3 more ready to give it a go) as well as Adam and Joke working as producers behind the scenes (and Adam occasionally joining).

I think these early episodes will eventually form a 1st Season, which hopefully will be of lower quality than what is to come, though I have extremely high hopes for the Rohmer episode.

So far we have learned a lot, from the behind the scenes stuff: planning, structure, pre-discussion, notes and how long topics within a structure takes - to more practical things like tempo and editing that is not too rushed and more natural.

We are still in the early learning phase, but all the feedback we're getting here is extremely encouraging (and helpful!).
-

Great read on favourites, feel free to re-share here: viewtopic.php?p=643030#p643030

We are trying something new this time to garner more attention for the actual topic we are discussing than just the podcast itself (as this thread keeps growing and people may not be inclined to participate on an individual topic).

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#133

Post by cinewest » May 27th, 2020, 2:16 pm

AdamH wrote:
May 27th, 2020, 1:50 pm
Thanks for the feedback cinewest, that's very useful. Could you elaborate a little bit more on what you think would improve the production?
I think the podcast could benefit from more of an established format, beginning with a catchier focalizing intro, and then the roundtable commentaries. Not sure each contributor needs to summarize the film they are talking about apart from basic thematic content, and what actually called the film to their attention and why (everyone ultimately got around to this, though). Everyone else on the panel should weigh in, either with their own takes on the films on the table, or in response to something the presenter has said. Even if someone hasn't see the film, I think they should maintain their participation in the dialogue.
Some of the sound edits were a little rough, but I never once lost the thread of the conversation.
As I said previously, I think more time should be spent wrapping up, not by summarizing, but maybe by thanking participants, promoting the podcast and ways to get involved, and touching a little on the next topic.

Though I am advocating that more attention be paid to the structure of the podcast, I don't think it needs to be complicated, or overly planned, as the most enjoyable quality is the feel of it being a spontaneous discussion, and perhaps some thought could be given for how to promote more back and forth among participants rather than just turn taking.

Good job, overall, though, and I expect you'll improve with time and practice alone.

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#134

Post by St. Gloede » May 27th, 2020, 2:27 pm

I'm really happy you brought up structure.

Before each episode we plan out the structure and the order in which the topic will evolve - this one was particularly simple as the structure was so straight forward. The hardest was the episode of Spanish Cinema - though I have a feeling the Rohmer episode will be the most complicated/important yet - but that is mostly because it is the episode we are putting in the most work on - there are easy and straight forward solutions, i.e. go film by film - but we want to look at the overlapping context and thematic, and how the films work together as well.

I'm sure we'll get better and better at structure as we get more training on how it works with different types of topics.

I would love a standardized intro, we have been talking about this, and it will come eventually.

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#135

Post by OldAle1 » May 27th, 2020, 2:39 pm

I'm listening to the 4th episode right now! And I'm really liking it. I tried listening to episode 1 early on but was having some weird sound problems - I'm going to go back and listen to all the earlier ones over the next day or two. Not really a podcast guy so it's a little bit of a weird experience for me - I find it hard to do anything else while listening but I'm used to doing stuff at this hour of the day. Maybe I"ll wait till night for the others. And now I wish I had better than kindergarten-level understanding of technology and could join in on future podcasts (I don't think I've ever even tested out the microphone on any of the 4 laptops I've owned). Maybe time for a crash course.

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#136

Post by jvv » May 27th, 2020, 2:47 pm

cinewest wrote:
May 27th, 2020, 2:16 pm
Though I am advocating that more attention be paid to the structure of the podcast, I don't think it needs to be complicated, or overly planned, as the most enjoyable quality is the feel of it being a spontaneous discussion, and perhaps some thought could be given for how to promote more back and forth among participants rather than just turn taking.
The main problem with more back and forth is that the participants aren't in one room, but all over the world. This means that they can't use body language to see when someone is finished speaking and there is a high chance that they interrupt each other (this happened quite often in the first episode). We "solved" this by taking turns (and keeping mikes mute when not speaking), but this does indeed inhibit the spontaneity.

Maybe we could try a more back and forth podcast again, now people are getting to know each other better. If an unwanted interruption occurs someone could just repeat what they just said, so the editors can fix the problem. More work for the editors, but they are getting more proficient as well. It might be worth a try.

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#137

Post by Onderhond » May 27th, 2020, 2:49 pm

Do you have your cameras on though? I figured it was due to the not being in the same room, but it might help if everyone at least sees the other people who are taking part. It's not a perfect solution for picking up body language signs, but it helps.

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#138

Post by St. Gloede » May 27th, 2020, 2:57 pm

That is definitely worth a try if everyone are comfortable with it. Adam and I did it for the pilot.

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#139

Post by St. Gloede » May 27th, 2020, 2:59 pm

OldAle1 wrote:
May 27th, 2020, 2:39 pm
I'm listening to the 4th episode right now! And I'm really liking it. I tried listening to episode 1 early on but was having some weird sound problems - I'm going to go back and listen to all the earlier ones over the next day or two. Not really a podcast guy so it's a little bit of a weird experience for me - I find it hard to do anything else while listening but I'm used to doing stuff at this hour of the day. Maybe I"ll wait till night for the others. And now I wish I had better than kindergarten-level understanding of technology and could join in on future podcasts (I don't think I've ever even tested out the microphone on any of the 4 laptops I've owned). Maybe time for a crash course.
(l) (l) (l) (l)

Yes, would love to have you on or involved!

Really happy you are enjoying the quality increase.

The first episode was particularly clunky, and some of us had poor equipment + notifications were not turned off. It mas a massive learning experience overall. This is our best editing yet, but Kinski and onwards are a lot better. Kinski was also the ep we had the most fun with.

And no worries about doing other things, this is what podcasts are largely for.

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#140

Post by OldAle1 » May 27th, 2020, 3:15 pm

Thanks Gloede. I'm just not a multi-tasking person when it comes to anything art - movies, music, reading, or even podcasts. I can't read fiction when there is much noise for example - certainly no music - and I won't watch movies, even terrible movies, unless I can give them 100% attention. If you're doing dishes or texting while you're watching a movie or listening to an album, you are not watching a movie or listening to an album IMO. I'm sure most people don't engage in that level of purity but it's what works for me; curiously most of my jobs have involved a lot of multitasking so maybe I just have to see my leisure time activities as something different from that. But anyway, I finished the episode and it's pretty solid and worthwhile; one thing you guys get into a little, but not enough for my taste, is how personal feelings, experiences, etc, influence your choices - this is what I like about Rosenbaum and Ebert for example as critics, they often will bring up personal history stuff when discussing why something works or doesn't work for them. It's not typical for critics, for some reason, but I"m not sure why it isn't - our responses to art are as conditioned by our own personal life experiences as much as our responses to food, sex, nature or anything else, and yet so many of us (including me much of the time) try to assert some level of "objectivity" in our views - or at least we aren't willing to discuss much where our subjective tastes come from. Maybe that's a bridge too far for many people, or maybe it's just the way we've been trained as cineastes?

Anyway that was a little diversion there, I'll maybe go on more on the other thread about favorite movies, and leave this until I've listened to other episodes.

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#141

Post by cinewest » May 27th, 2020, 3:28 pm

jvv wrote:
May 27th, 2020, 2:47 pm
cinewest wrote:
May 27th, 2020, 2:16 pm
Though I am advocating that more attention be paid to the structure of the podcast, I don't think it needs to be complicated, or overly planned, as the most enjoyable quality is the feel of it being a spontaneous discussion, and perhaps some thought could be given for how to promote more back and forth among participants rather than just turn taking.
The main problem with more back and forth is that the participants aren't in one room, but all over the world. This means that they can't use body language to see when someone is finished speaking and there is a high chance that they interrupt each other (this happened quite often in the first episode). We "solved" this by taking turns (and keeping mikes mute when not speaking), but this does indeed inhibit the spontaneity.

Maybe we could try a more back and forth podcast again, now people are getting to know each other better. If an unwanted interruption occurs someone could just repeat what they just said, so the editors can fix the problem. More work for the editors, but they are getting more proficient as well. It might be worth a try.
a very good point. As I suggested, one way to win some of the spontaneity back might be to respond to something another speaker said when it comes to your turn

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#142

Post by cinewest » May 27th, 2020, 3:31 pm

OldAle1 wrote:
May 27th, 2020, 3:15 pm
Thanks Gloede. I'm just not a multi-tasking person when it comes to anything art - movies, music, reading, or even podcasts. I can't read fiction when there is much noise for example - certainly no music - and I won't watch movies, even terrible movies, unless I can give them 100% attention. If you're doing dishes or texting while you're watching a movie or listening to an album, you are not watching a movie or listening to an album IMO. I'm sure most people don't engage in that level of purity but it's what works for me; curiously most of my jobs have involved a lot of multitasking so maybe I just have to see my leisure time activities as something different from that. But anyway, I finished the episode and it's pretty solid and worthwhile; one thing you guys get into a little, but not enough for my taste, is how personal feelings, experiences, etc, influence your choices - this is what I like about Rosenbaum and Ebert for example as critics, they often will bring up personal history stuff when discussing why something works or doesn't work for them. It's not typical for critics, for some reason, but I"m not sure why it isn't - our responses to art are as conditioned by our own personal life experiences as much as our responses to food, sex, nature or anything else, and yet so many of us (including me much of the time) try to assert some level of "objectivity" in our views - or at least we aren't willing to discuss much where our subjective tastes come from. Maybe that's a bridge too far for many people, or maybe it's just the way we've been trained as cineastes?

Anyway that was a little diversion there, I'll maybe go on more on the other thread about favorite movies, and leave this until I've listened to other episodes.
Love your comment about criticism / response, here, Ale. In fact it might be my favorite thing you have said over the years....

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#143

Post by Onderhond » May 27th, 2020, 3:39 pm

OldAle1 wrote:
May 27th, 2020, 3:15 pm
If you're doing dishes or texting while you're watching a movie or listening to an album, you are not watching a movie or listening to an album IMO. I'm sure most people don't engage in that level of purity but it's what works for me.
I surely hope people here aren't doing the dishes when watching movies. Music is a bit different for me, mostly because it's an ear-only experience and doing the dishes doesn't get in the way of that, but unless something can do the dishes blindly, a film requires you to look at the screen at all times.

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#144

Post by OldAle1 » May 27th, 2020, 3:46 pm

Onderhond wrote:
May 27th, 2020, 3:39 pm
OldAle1 wrote:
May 27th, 2020, 3:15 pm
If you're doing dishes or texting while you're watching a movie or listening to an album, you are not watching a movie or listening to an album IMO. I'm sure most people don't engage in that level of purity but it's what works for me.
I surely hope people here aren't doing the dishes when watching movies. Music is a bit different for me, mostly because it's an ear-only experience and doing the dishes doesn't get in the way of that, but unless something can do the dishes blindly, a film requires you to look at the screen at all times.
Oh sure, music isn't quite the same as reading or watching something, but I still find it challenging to do it in concert with other activities - except driving, which is second nature to me, though even then I frequently have to have silence, if there's any level of traffic or I'm unsure where I'm going. And at the best of times I don't feel like I'm getting all I can out of the music, and much of what I listen to doesn't work with traffic noises. I actually have a theory that the rise of pop music, and rock and roll in particular, has a lot to do with it being easier to listen to while driving than jazz, classical, or other forms of music that pre-date the 1950s and the car culture boom in America.

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#145

Post by blocho » May 27th, 2020, 4:50 pm

OldAle1 wrote:
May 27th, 2020, 3:46 pm
I actually have a theory that the rise of pop music, and rock and roll in particular, has a lot to do with it being easier to listen to while driving than jazz, classical, or other forms of music that pre-date the 1950s and the car culture boom in America.
Very intriguing. Can you explain this theory more thoroughly? Why is pop or rock easier to listen to while driving?

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#146

Post by OldAle1 » May 27th, 2020, 5:01 pm

blocho wrote:
May 27th, 2020, 4:50 pm
OldAle1 wrote:
May 27th, 2020, 3:46 pm
I actually have a theory that the rise of pop music, and rock and roll in particular, has a lot to do with it being easier to listen to while driving than jazz, classical, or other forms of music that pre-date the 1950s and the car culture boom in America.
Very intriguing. Can you explain this theory more thoroughly? Why is pop or rock easier to listen to while driving?
Two reasons, the first of which I think is more important if probably less obvious:

1) significantly more restricted dynamic range. Most pop music - particularly the earlier pop music from the beginnings of car culture, the interstate highway system, etc - is pitched at close to the same volume level throughout. You listen to a Beatles or Chuck Berry or Hank Williams song and it's quite easy to adjust the volume so that you can hear everything without blowing your ears or speakers out. Try to do that with a Mahler symphony and it's pretty much impossible - I know because I listened to Mahler's 1st-3rd while on my last trip to Vermont in December; every time I try to listen to most classical music, and a good bit of jazz, while driving I get frustrated, because either I can't hear the soft parts at all, or the loud parts are ear-splitting, or I have to keep fucking with the volume every few seconds - which of course defeats the purpose. The first movements of Mahler's 1st or Beethoven's 4th - the two best examples I can think of offhand - are supposed to be so quiet you can barely hear them and then slowly build into towering crescendos. The effect is totally lost in a car; even driving late at night with an empty highway it doesn't quite work. In jazz I had a similar experience trying to listen to Monk. Whereas Bruce Springsteen or The Grateful Dead or Dolly Parton, or whatever, don't lose nearly so much.

2) pop music is generally relatively short songs - 2-5 minutes - and easy to concentrate on, and digest, even when other stuff is going on around you. A half-hour or hour-long jazz or classical piece, not so much. And an opera, forget it.

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#147

Post by Teproc » May 27th, 2020, 7:37 pm

Pop music is designed to be popular, therefore it is, at least the ones that succed. That's why they call it pop music. Instrumental jazz isn't popular for the same reason that Lav Diaz films aren't popular. They aren't meant to be.

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#148

Post by blocho » May 27th, 2020, 9:57 pm

Well, there was a time when instrumental jazz (along with vocal jazz) was the most popular music in the country. I think if I had been alive in 1937 and heard this for the first time, my head would have exploded:


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#149

Post by Opio » May 27th, 2020, 11:22 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
May 26th, 2020, 4:26 pm
FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!

In this episode we cover two great existential questions:

1. What is your all-time favourite film?
2. And why?

Listen here: https://talkingimages.sounder.fm/show/talking-images
Or here: https://open.spotify.com/show/3GhRXnb6OzOnfae2Uvkvus
I just listened to this while I was working on my 1966 nominations list. Nice job, guys!

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#150

Post by cinewest » May 28th, 2020, 2:19 am

OldAle1 wrote:
May 27th, 2020, 5:01 pm
blocho wrote:
May 27th, 2020, 4:50 pm
OldAle1 wrote:
May 27th, 2020, 3:46 pm
I actually have a theory that the rise of pop music, and rock and roll in particular, has a lot to do with it being easier to listen to while driving than jazz, classical, or other forms of music that pre-date the 1950s and the car culture boom in America.
Very intriguing. Can you explain this theory more thoroughly? Why is pop or rock easier to listen to while driving?
Two reasons, the first of which I think is more important if probably less obvious:

1) significantly more restricted dynamic range. Most pop music - particularly the earlier pop music from the beginnings of car culture, the interstate highway system, etc - is pitched at close to the same volume level throughout. You listen to a Beatles or Chuck Berry or Hank Williams song and it's quite easy to adjust the volume so that you can hear everything without blowing your ears or speakers out. Try to do that with a Mahler symphony and it's pretty much impossible - I know because I listened to Mahler's 1st-3rd while on my last trip to Vermont in December; every time I try to listen to most classical music, and a good bit of jazz, while driving I get frustrated, because either I can't hear the soft parts at all, or the loud parts are ear-splitting, or I have to keep fucking with the volume every few seconds - which of course defeats the purpose. The first movements of Mahler's 1st or Beethoven's 4th - the two best examples I can think of offhand - are supposed to be so quiet you can barely hear them and then slowly build into towering crescendos. The effect is totally lost in a car; even driving late at night with an empty highway it doesn't quite work. In jazz I had a similar experience trying to listen to Monk. Whereas Bruce Springsteen or The Grateful Dead or Dolly Parton, or whatever, don't lose nearly so much.

2) pop music is generally relatively short songs - 2-5 minutes - and easy to concentrate on, and digest, even when other stuff is going on around you. A half-hour or hour-long jazz or classical piece, not so much. And an opera, forget it.
I never thought about the relationship between pop music and the car, before, but it makes a certain amount of sense (they have certainly gone together for generations).

I do think classical forms (music and novels, for sure) have suffered with the post television, fast food, and even more so, with the post computer age. People (in general) just don't seem to have the time or the wiring for these kinds of time consuming, complex things anymore, and seem to prefer readily recognizable and consumable bites. Life, nowadays, seems to be more about how much one can do or accomplish with usable bits than how deep one can immerse oneself and reflect on a single thing.
Last edited by cinewest on May 28th, 2020, 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#151

Post by prodigalgodson » May 28th, 2020, 7:15 am

cinewest wrote:
May 28th, 2020, 2:19 am
Life is more about how much one can do or accomplish with usable bits than how deep one can immerse oneself and reflect on a single thing.
Well put.

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#152

Post by cinewest » May 28th, 2020, 7:31 am

prodigalgodson wrote:
May 28th, 2020, 7:15 am
cinewest wrote:
May 28th, 2020, 2:19 am
Life is more about how much one can do or accomplish with usable bits than how deep one can immerse oneself and reflect on a single thing.
Well put.
I didn't mean that as necessarily a good thing, but more about the world we are now living in, which not only determines who we are becoming, but how our values are changing.

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#153

Post by prodigalgodson » May 28th, 2020, 8:55 am

cinewest wrote:
May 28th, 2020, 7:31 am
prodigalgodson wrote:
May 28th, 2020, 7:15 am
cinewest wrote:
May 28th, 2020, 2:19 am
Life is more about how much one can do or accomplish with usable bits than how deep one can immerse oneself and reflect on a single thing.
Well put.
I didn't mean that as necessarily a good thing, but more about the world we are now living in, which not only determines who we are becoming, but how our values are changing.
Oh yes I took it as a comment on the sad state of modern life.

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#154

Post by Onderhond » May 28th, 2020, 9:30 am

prodigalgodson wrote:
May 28th, 2020, 7:15 am
cinewest wrote:
May 28th, 2020, 2:19 am
Life is more about how much one can do or accomplish with usable bits than how deep one can immerse oneself and reflect on a single thing.
Well put.
It does contradict the heavy fandom we're seeing nowadays though.

Also don't agree with this at all. I see evidence of both, and having both options is much better than being forced to do only one. The main difference is that fandom is much more fragmented and you can live a full life/being as connected as you want without being aware of entire sub cultures and fandom ecosystems.

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#155

Post by cinewest » May 28th, 2020, 1:32 pm

Onderhond wrote:
May 28th, 2020, 9:30 am
prodigalgodson wrote:
May 28th, 2020, 7:15 am
cinewest wrote:
May 28th, 2020, 2:19 am
Life is more about how much one can do or accomplish with usable bits than how deep one can immerse oneself and reflect on a single thing.
Well put.
It does contradict the heavy fandom we're seeing nowadays though.

Also don't agree with this at all. I see evidence of both, and having both options is much better than being forced to do only one. The main difference is that fandom is much more fragmented and you can live a full life/being as connected as you want without being aware of entire sub cultures and fandom ecosystems.
Fandom for what? Not sure you're getting the point, but I do agree that many more people have many more options than they have had in the past, and my own life is probably a prime example of someone who has not only explored and been enriched by diverse cultural realities, but in some sense has lived multiple lives, even at the same time.

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#156

Post by Onderhond » May 28th, 2020, 1:49 pm

cinewest wrote:
May 28th, 2020, 1:32 pm
Not sure you're getting the point
I think you mean that people take less time to (for example) explore a music album to its fullest. Sitting down, doing nothing else and listening to it over and over again with headphones? I just don't think that's true. I still believe (and see) people do that, only they've become more critical of when to do that (and so it becomes less visible to others). The rest they probably consume less attentively (ie while being on their phone or doing the dishes), but that's because you have to wade through a lot more these days to get to the things you truly love.
cinewest wrote:
May 28th, 2020, 1:32 pm
Fandom for what? I do agree that many more people have many more options than they have had in the past, and my own life is probably a prime example of someone who has not only explored and been enriched by diverse cultural realities, but in some sense has lived multiple lives, even at the same time.
Fandom for whatever. From people who write Harry Potter fanfiction to people knowing every single thing about underground industrial techno.

In a way it has made some people lonelier I think, because it's much harder (even on the internet) to find others who share your exact same taste. Even at niche levels there seems to be much more discord on what is good and what isn't. On the other hand it has propelled fandom of other (more popular) things, because people still want to have that communal feeling (Star Wars, Game of Thrones, or, dare I say it ... film canon). What's kinda lost for the moment is much of the middle field.

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#157

Post by Lonewolf2003 » May 28th, 2020, 1:59 pm

Listened to the last episode. It was an interesting listening again.
And I'm very happy the podcast is on Spotify now. Makes it easier accessible and easier to listen to.

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#158

Post by cinewest » May 28th, 2020, 3:27 pm

Onderhond wrote:
May 28th, 2020, 1:49 pm
cinewest wrote:
May 28th, 2020, 1:32 pm
Not sure you're getting the point
I think you mean that people take less time to (for example) explore a music album to its fullest. Sitting down, doing nothing else and listening to it over and over again with headphones? I just don't think that's true. I still believe (and see) people do that, only they've become more critical of when to do that (and so it becomes less visible to others). The rest they probably consume less attentively (ie while being on their phone or doing the dishes), but that's because you have to wade through a lot more these days to get to the things you truly love.
cinewest wrote:
May 28th, 2020, 1:32 pm
Fandom for what? I do agree that many more people have many more options than they have had in the past, and my own life is probably a prime example of someone who has not only explored and been enriched by diverse cultural realities, but in some sense has lived multiple lives, even at the same time.
Fandom for whatever. From people who write Harry Potter fanfiction to people knowing every single thing about underground industrial techno.

In a way it has made some people lonelier I think, because it's much harder (even on the internet) to find others who share your exact same taste. Even at niche levels there seems to be much more discord on what is good and what isn't. On the other hand it has propelled fandom of other (more popular) things, because people still want to have that communal feeling (Star Wars, Game of Thrones, or, dare I say it ... film canon). What's kinda lost for the moment is much of the middle field.
Ok, more or less on the first part, and I totally agree on the second, and among other things have my own personal experience to draw upon. It almost makes me want to join a church and embrace more popular communal practices and sensibilities.

I think we're all caught up with our own sense of individualism and freedom of opinion / choice.... And look where that has taken us in America, now.
I think there is also something else going on that is more noble, and has to do with an expression of authenticity, though honestly one can do this much more effectively through one's life choices and actions than through one's pursuit of entertainment.

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#159

Post by Onderhond » May 28th, 2020, 4:30 pm

cinewest wrote:
May 28th, 2020, 3:27 pm
I think we're all caught up with our own sense of individualism and freedom of opinion / choice.... And look where that has taken us in America, now.
I don't think the outcome of greater individualism should be negative per sé, but it surely hasn't helped the current situation in the US.
cinewest wrote:
May 28th, 2020, 3:27 pm
I think there is also something else going on that is more noble, and has to do with an expression of authenticity, though honestly one can do this much more effectively through one's life choices and actions than through one's pursuit of entertainment.
Definitely (if I understand you correctly that is). While there is no doubt a link between taste and personality, I don't think it's as obvious as many think it is and it's not something you can derive yourself unless you know a person really, really well. Personally I never understood people who tried/wanted to express themselves through their choice of entertainment, on the other hand I do enjoy very particular and extrovert subcultures.

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#160

Post by St. Gloede » May 29th, 2020, 7:14 am

Lonewolf2003 wrote:
May 28th, 2020, 1:59 pm
Listened to the last episode. It was an interesting listening again.
And I'm very happy the podcast is on Spotify now. Makes it easier accessible and easier to listen to.
Thanks Lonewolf, means a lot!

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