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What do numerical ratings mean?

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Onderhond
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Re: What do numerical ratings mean?

#81

Post by Onderhond » June 22nd, 2020, 8:16 am

mightysparks wrote:
June 22nd, 2020, 7:53 am
I think opinions do become more meaningful when we can explain them (at least to some degree)
Well, the discussion becomes more meaningful, but the opinion itself doesn't change.

I mean, whether someone writes a 1000 words trying to explain why they gave The Godfather 1/10 or they simply rate and move on, the experience that 1/10 represents is still the same. For those who are offended by that rating though, a review is something that gives them more control (often just to be dismissive of it and restoring their faith in their own judgement, but hey ...).

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cinewest
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#82

Post by cinewest » June 22nd, 2020, 8:29 am

It might be useful to learn something about an art form and the ways it can be used, as well as how it can express things before one opinionates or judges something with a paltry a number that has been created by someone who actually knows how to use that art form.

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#83

Post by Onderhond » June 22nd, 2020, 8:36 am

cinewest wrote:
June 22nd, 2020, 8:29 am
It might be useful to learn something about an art form and the ways it can be used, as well as how it can express things before one opinionates or judges something with a paltry a number that has been created by someone who actually knows how to use that art form.
You mean Coppola should be ashamed for delivering a conventional crime narrative instead of using the film medium to its full, raw, creative potential?

If you don't (or don't want to) accept that art is different for everyone, even 2000 words won't help the discussion along.

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#84

Post by cinewest » June 22nd, 2020, 11:42 am

Yes, art, politics, the way people want to live, and What they like to eat is different for everyone, but that isn’t what’s being discussed is it?
We were talking about the meaning and usefulness of rating those things numerically, and I added to that discussion by questioning the “righteousness” of people’s opinions, as well as the “quality“ of people’s opinions in some cases.

If people who don’t know how to make films have the right to judge/rate a filmmaker’s work, then surely people have the right to judge/ rate those opinions wouldn’t you say?

So, for example, if someone wants to rate The Godfather a 1 without offering anything interesting to say as to why, I am inclined to rate their opinion a 1.

What’s more annoying to me are people who “rate” things they don’t even understand without even trying to educate themselves about it, but that’s another sidetrack that’s probably best not to get into, here.

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#85

Post by Onderhond » June 22nd, 2020, 12:13 pm

cinewest wrote:
June 22nd, 2020, 11:42 am
So, for example, if someone wants to rate The Godfather a 1 without offering anything interesting to say as to why, I am inclined to rate their opinion a 1.
Well, nobody is stopping you I guess? Personally I would rephrase that to "rating their contribution" rather than "rating their opinion" though, especially since it's you who want people to educate themselves before rating.

What it contributes ... one rating won't contribute much, but if that person rates a lot of films you do get some feel for their taste in films, which might come in handy. And it also contributes to an average (if the platform allows that), which gives you an idea about intersubjective appreciation of a certain film. Both seem very much in line with the core idea behind most sites where people post or add their ratings, so a 1:10 rating for their contribution would still be kind of silly in that regard.
cinewest wrote:
June 22nd, 2020, 11:42 am
If people who don’t know how to make films have the right to judge/rate a filmmaker’s work
Well, you say how people interpret art isn't the point of the discussion here, but you keep dragging it into it. Whether you think skills/know-how is important is very much a personal interpretation and hardly something to go by if you want to discuss the general benefits of rating.

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#86

Post by cinewest » June 22nd, 2020, 12:28 pm

Onderhond wrote:
June 22nd, 2020, 12:13 pm
cinewest wrote:
June 22nd, 2020, 11:42 am
So, for example, if someone wants to rate The Godfather a 1 without offering anything interesting to say as to why, I am inclined to rate their opinion a 1.
Well, nobody is stopping you I guess? Personally I would rephrase that to "rating their contribution" rather than "rating their opinion" though, especially since it's you who want people to educate themselves before rating.

What it contributes ... one rating won't contribute much, but if that person rates a lot of films you do get some feel for their taste in films, which might come in handy. And it also contributes to an average (if the platform allows that), which gives you an idea about intersubjective appreciation of a certain film. Both seem very much in line with the core idea behind most sites where people post or add their ratings, so a 1:10 rating for their contribution would still be kind of silly in that regard.
cinewest wrote:
June 22nd, 2020, 11:42 am
If people who don’t know how to make films have the right to judge/rate a filmmaker’s work
Well, you say how people interpret art isn't the point of the discussion here, but you keep dragging it into it. Whether you think skills/know-how is important is very much a personal interpretation and hardly something to go by if you want to discuss the general benefits of rating.
Let me rephrase: Assuming people believe they have the right to "rate" art, it baffles me that they believe their opinion shouldn't be judged, likewise.

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#87

Post by peeptoad » June 22nd, 2020, 12:29 pm

My ratings are purely subjective and for me to use so that I can keep track and classify things appropriately for my viewing habits and preferences. I don't expect anyone else to either agree with my rating or use my ratings for any meaningful purpose at all.
I personally consider many factors when rating a film, but I am using all of those factors (camerawork, photography, artistic style, mood, sound, characters, plot, etc.) in a completely subjective manner since I don't consider art/film viewing to be objective at all, except that someone can objectively form their own opinion and never be "wrong". I.E. there are no rules, mode of conduct or anything else one must subscribe to when viewing works of art. If a person sees or feels something completely different than what the director intended then there is nothing wrong with that... even if the film is considered to be some sort of masterpiece for the ages. Just because a film was revered by people who watched it 50 years ago doesn't mean I have to love it today. Mind sets change over time and generations, which can completely change peoples' perceptions about an idea or theme or stylistic tendencies. Shit, some stuff I thought was the bomb back in middle school I consider tripe today.

Anyway, blah blah blah.... my rating scale-

10: perfect or nearly perfect (considering I can find fault in my fav film of all time there is no "perfect")
9: excellent, one of my all-time favorites, but 1 or 2 little things keep it from perfection
8: a great film, with some aspect that held me back from giving it a higher rating
7: a good, solid film, but usually not as entertaining or memorable as 8-10
6: a decent film, slightly above average
5: an average film, not terrible but far from great
4: below average, with one or two redeeming qualities in there somewhere
3: decidedly below average, with very little to redeem, getting close to bad
2: a poor film, nothing to redeem, but not totally bottom of the barrel
1: piss-poor, nothing I enjoyed about it and I want my lost time back

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#88

Post by Onderhond » June 22nd, 2020, 12:38 pm

I guess it has to do with norms and expectations.

Critiquing art is much more of a norm than critiquing people is, unless we're talking politicians (or whoever has a very public function/job). Mostly because art is a thing and doesn't have feelings, whereas people do. Art will never be offended, feel shut out, get depressed, ...

Also, putting out a movie means you'll get critiques for it, that's expected and known behavior. If you don't want that as a creator, it's best to keep your work away from the public. When people go to (movie) review sites, the whole point of these platforms is that people things. It's why they were made or why that bit of functionality was specifically added. These people don't come there to put their opinion on display and be critiqued though, so it's a bit weird to start doing that. It's about as relevant as going to a BLM rally and start talking to people about how blind people are being neglected by our society. You may be right, but it's just not the time and place to bring it up.

I guess you could always make a platform for that (like an IMDb for opinions, where people would gather to discuss an opinion), but I think it's either going to be very unpopular or very, very toxic.

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#89

Post by cinewest » June 22nd, 2020, 2:08 pm

Onderhond wrote:
June 22nd, 2020, 12:38 pm
I guess it has to do with norms and expectations.

Critiquing art is much more of a norm than critiquing people is, unless we're talking politicians (or whoever has a very public function/job). Mostly because art is a thing and doesn't have feelings, whereas people do. Art will never be offended, feel shut out, get depressed, ...

Also, putting out a movie means you'll get critiques for it, that's expected and known behavior. If you don't want that as a creator, it's best to keep your work away from the public. When people go to (movie) review sites, the whole point of these platforms is that people things. It's why they were made or why that bit of functionality was specifically added. These people don't come there to put their opinion on display and be critiqued though, so it's a bit weird to start doing that. It's about as relevant as going to a BLM rally and start talking to people about how blind people are being neglected by our society. You may be right, but it's just not the time and place to bring it up.

I guess you could always make a platform for that (like an IMDb for opinions, where people would gather to discuss an opinion), but I think it's either going to be very unpopular or very, very toxic.
Seems to me that we're starting to talk past one another.

I never said "critiquing art" wasn't or shouldn't be "a norm." My issue from the start has been the application of numerical ratings to art, especially when that is all that is offered as opinion.

I don't disagree with your second paragraph apart from the last part which is not analogous to what I have been saying at all. Why would it be strange to encounter disagreement when giving an opinion about a film on a film board? Seems to me that if you offer an opinion about something, you should be willing to handle, even face disagreement, or at least be willing to discuss your opinion, without which your opinion would be nothing more than a pronouncement.

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#90

Post by Onderhond » June 22nd, 2020, 2:30 pm

cinewest wrote:
June 22nd, 2020, 2:08 pm
I never said "critiquing art" wasn't or shouldn't be "a norm." My issue from the start has been the application of numerical ratings to art, especially when that is all that is offered as opinion.
Well yes, consider a rating the most basic form of critique.
cinewest wrote:
June 22nd, 2020, 2:08 pm
Why would it be strange to encounter disagreement when giving an opinion about a film on a film board? Seems to me that if you offer an opinion about something, you should be willing to handle, even face disagreement, or at least be willing to discuss your opinion, without which your opinion would be nothing more than a pronouncement.
Because for many people it is a pronouncement, not an invitation to a discussion. Especially not on the internet.

I think most people are actually quite open to disagreement, not so much the toxicity and reproach that usually comes with it though. These discussions quickly devolve into right/wrong arguments, accusations, ridicule and whatnot. They rarely play out nicely or come from an openness to learn from each other's views, which is a big reason why people, especially those not looking to work through all that negativity, act rather defensively when challenged.

On a personal level I don't really disagree with how you see things, as it's how I try to present myself online, but I don't think it's something you can ask everyone to do.

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#91

Post by RogerTheMovieManiac88 » June 22nd, 2020, 2:32 pm

xianjiro wrote:
June 22nd, 2020, 12:04 am
ratings seem like a shorthand to me - I wonder if we've just been trained to use them over so many years or if it's a desire that comes 'naturally'. Clearly a lot of people have more trouble writing more than a couple sentences for comments let alone a full-blown (if concise) review. Not sure about things like World Cup, but I've been a bit disappointed how little discussion happens on FotW. So if you make it easier - ratings (whichever format), thumbs up/down, etc - then people participate on some level.

The one thing I'd change on Roger's ratings:

06 - Fair to middling
05 - Average :down:

seems backwards to me

06 - Average
05 - Fair to middling :thumbsup:
A 6/10 is fairly good in my book, whereas a 5/10 is decidedly average (i.e. less than fairly good).

I think I'll stick with my scale, haahaa.
That's all, folks!

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#92

Post by mathiasa » June 22nd, 2020, 3:19 pm

I use the 14-18 point system that imdb + icm offer me when used together. If have the 10 points given me by imdb and then theoretically for every point a 3 point qualifier from icm wich would give me theoretically 30 points. But I never use an 8/10 rating with a thumbs down or a 2/10 with a thumbs up. What is common for me is to have 8/10 and either thumbs up or neutral. Most of my 9/10 have a thumbs up but not all. All my 10/10 have a thumbs up because this is reserved for ultimate favorites only. Some of my 7/10 do have a thumbs up, these are typically movies I find highly sympathetic but not done very good (eg a funny splatter/slasher movie), or nice shorts where an 8/10 would be too much, but usually a 7/10 won't get a thumbs up. Rarely do I have 6/10 ratings with a thumbs up, but it can happen. 5/10 are for mediocre movies so no thumb ups here or lower. But I might use a thumbs down on a 5/10, but that's a rare occasion and I never use a thumbs down on a higher rating. I do have 4/10 with thumbs down from time to time, usually these are movies with good production values but which I couldn't get into or that got on my nerves (Shame comes to my mind). For 3/10 I think it's about 50/50 whether I use a thumbs down. Especially trash movies that didn't set out to be anything else than trash movies won't get a thumbs down from me, or if the idea was good but the realization bad, or if it was a very short movie. Almost all of my 2/10 get a thumbs down, but there are some exceptions. All of the 1/10 get a thumbs down because they are the worst of the worst.

Not saying this way of using the qualifiers is the correct one, but it works for me. Anyway, I find it much more fun und helpful to use the 3 point system of icm as qualifier for the 10 point rating of imdb (or the other way round), than to simply downscale imdb's rating to icm's (or the other way round). Because that's a mechanical task yielding no additional information. While with my system, though I don't have the 100 point system that I'd ideally want, I get additional points to imdb's 10 points for free. And that's giving me a lot. Especially the 8 and 8.5 (8/10 plus thumbs up) and 3 and 2.5 (3/10 plus thumbs down) are important discriminations in my system.

--

To all the people who don't see a point in rating movies: Unless you have some other sort of keeping notes of movies I guess you're probably very young and haven't yet learned about the frailty of human existence. Every indebted movie fan/cineast who has ever experienced malfunction of the brain understands the need to keep tokens of memory. Suffering from chemo brain for the last three years, I regret that I didn't take down more information than only the ratings. But still, and even though as jvv has pointed out, the ratings are constantly on the move as we develop/change, they are still a far greater help than what one might think at first glance. I, for one, would not be able to participate in the polls anymore without having access to my ratings. They also help you remember the movie itself in some instances.
Last edited by mathiasa on June 22nd, 2020, 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#93

Post by cinewest » June 22nd, 2020, 3:21 pm

Onderhond wrote:
June 22nd, 2020, 2:30 pm
cinewest wrote:
June 22nd, 2020, 2:08 pm
I never said "critiquing art" wasn't or shouldn't be "a norm." My issue from the start has been the application of numerical ratings to art, especially when that is all that is offered as opinion.
Well yes, consider a rating the most basic form of critique.
cinewest wrote:
June 22nd, 2020, 2:08 pm
Why would it be strange to encounter disagreement when giving an opinion about a film on a film board? Seems to me that if you offer an opinion about something, you should be willing to handle, even face disagreement, or at least be willing to discuss your opinion, without which your opinion would be nothing more than a pronouncement.
Because for many people it is a pronouncement, not an invitation to a discussion. Especially not on the internet.

I think most people are actually quite open to disagreement, not so much the toxicity and reproach that usually comes with it though. These discussions quickly devolve into right/wrong arguments, accusations, ridicule and whatnot. They rarely play out nicely or come from an openness to learn from each other's views, which is a big reason why people, especially those not looking to work through all that negativity, act rather defensively when challenged.

On a personal level I don't really disagree with how you see things, as it's how I try to present myself online, but I don't think it's something you can ask everyone to do.
I hear you about the "negativity," but then isn't there a fair amount of negativity to rating any film a 1? Personally, I try to stay away from films I probably won't like, and rarely finish those that are playing like certain sub 5's (so I don't rate them).

Granted, there are some that I somehow sit through, usually those that have been so lauded that I feel like I owe them a complete opportunity to make their case, which only upsets me more when they don't, if only because I prize what little free / movie time I have. I don't generally rail against movies unless I think they have been way over appraised, even as most of these usually do have something going for them or they wouldn't be so popular (Oscar bait, or certain popular arthouse directors are often the guilty parties that sucker me , but it isn't that often, and I am genuinely interested in hearing points of view about them that might prompt me to reconsider my own.

When I get upset on a film blog it is usually due to the disregard of a film I really love, or think highly of, but I am not likely to sling any arrows, much less attack anyone personally unless provoked in some way, and though I have gone there once or twice, I have tried to learn from those experiences how best to avoid them while at the same time continuing to voice my opinion about what interests me on these boards, and I have enjoyed quite a few lively, respectful discussions that haven't always ended in agreement, even some of those with you I believe.

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#94

Post by mathiasa » June 22nd, 2020, 3:52 pm

cinewest wrote:
June 22nd, 2020, 11:42 am
Yes, art, politics, the way people want to live, and What they like to eat is different for everyone, but that isn’t what’s being discussed is it?
We were talking about the meaning and usefulness of rating those things numerically, and I added to that discussion by questioning the “righteousness” of people’s opinions, as well as the “quality“ of people’s opinions in some cases.

If people who don’t know how to make films have the right to judge/rate a filmmaker’s work, then surely people have the right to judge/ rate those opinions wouldn’t you say?

So, for example, if someone wants to rate The Godfather a 1 without offering anything interesting to say as to why, I am inclined to rate their opinion a 1.

What’s more annoying to me are people who “rate” things they don’t even understand without even trying to educate themselves about it, but that’s another sidetrack that’s probably best not to get into, here.
This reminds me of an Ayn Rand thread we once had here. Everybody was wildly speculating about her views, putting nasty and uncalled things in her mouth, making fun of her in a disrespectful manner while nobody except me had read any of her philosophic/political/pedagogical work. I was very upset by those attitudes so I can relate to what you're saying (The more so as some, rather than facing their incompetence and at least learning the utter basics of philosophical tenets, were even trying to get to me for having admitted that I haven't read her famous novels).

On the other hand, a movie like Godfather matters, no matter whether one likes it or not, this is why people rate it. A single rating, be it a 1/10 or any other rating doesn't hardly matter. So why would you want to waste time rating that rating?

It's the same with my example. The work of Ayn Rand matters, that's why people are talking about her even on movie forums. But what these laymen and -women (in the negative sense) project into her doesn't really matter, so there would have really been no reason for me to lose my cool.

Never overestimate the common people. I think it leads to nothing good if we put a common movie watcher on the same pedestal as film makers. I think you take him far too serious if you bother about his rating.

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#95

Post by Onderhond » June 22nd, 2020, 4:00 pm

cinewest wrote:
June 22nd, 2020, 3:21 pm
I hear you about the "negativity," but then isn't there a fair amount of negativity to rating any film a 1?
Well yes, but films are inanimate things that don't get offended if you rate them 1/10, so it's fairly safe to be 100% truthful about your feelings towards them.
There are of course people who identify very strongly with a film and get offended in its place, but nobody has time to deal with such sensitivities.
cinewest wrote:
June 22nd, 2020, 3:21 pm
When I get upset on a film blog it is usually due to the disregard of a film I really love, or think highly of, but I am not likely to sling any arrows, much less attack anyone personally unless provoked in some way, and though I have gone there once or twice, I have tried to learn from those experiences how best to avoid them while at the same time continuing to voice my opinion about what interests me on these boards, and I have enjoyed quite a few lively, respectful discussions that haven't always ended in agreement, even some of those with you I believe.
I know you play nice enough, but you are the exception to the rule. For every one of you, there's a dozen others who'll gang up on you and get very toxic for disliking something they love. For me personally these discussions are worth having too, but I fully understand people who don't want to spend their time on such things. The takeaway from these types of discussions is very specific and rather minimal, and they can cause lots of frustration if you don't read them right.

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#96

Post by cinewest » June 22nd, 2020, 5:05 pm

@mathiasa,

Like Onderhond, I think you took me a little too literally when I spoke about rating the judgments of others. I said this in order to point out that those who judge the work of others shouldn't get upset if someone else calls their judgment into question, especially when its limited to a numerical rating.

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#97

Post by tommy_leazaq » June 22nd, 2020, 7:18 pm

I started with 5 star rating like almost everyone. Then 10 point like every IMDb users. Then 15. Now I am on to 100 points and I guess I have a work-in-progress for definition for each number from 0 - 100. :P

Image

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#98

Post by xianjiro » June 23rd, 2020, 6:57 pm

RogerTheMovieManiac88 wrote:
June 22nd, 2020, 2:32 pm
xianjiro wrote:
June 22nd, 2020, 12:04 am
ratings seem like a shorthand to me - I wonder if we've just been trained to use them over so many years or if it's a desire that comes 'naturally'. Clearly a lot of people have more trouble writing more than a couple sentences for comments let alone a full-blown (if concise) review. Not sure about things like World Cup, but I've been a bit disappointed how little discussion happens on FotW. So if you make it easier - ratings (whichever format), thumbs up/down, etc - then people participate on some level.

The one thing I'd change on Roger's ratings:

06 - Fair to middling
05 - Average :down:

seems backwards to me

06 - Average
05 - Fair to middling :thumbsup:
A 6/10 is fairly good in my book, whereas a 5/10 is decidedly average (i.e. less than fairly good).

I think I'll stick with my scale, haahaa.
end of day? it's all semantics (and those words seem to have different subtle meaning shifts for us)

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#99

Post by DareDaniel » June 27th, 2020, 1:46 pm

Movies are entertainment to me. Anything I can finish will get at least a 5/10. Life is too short to finish a movie that is wasting my time just for the sake of finishing it. I'll just skip through the scenes to get an idea of the rest of the movie (and I never regret doing it). Also, I must watch at least 50% of it. I'll rate anything that I can't finish from 1/10 to 4/10, depending on how early I gave up on it.

I don't believe that certain ratings that must be given to certain movies in order to keep my "cinephile card". Despite its many flaws, Ghostbusters (2016) entertained me for what it was, I didn't get mad. Gave it a 5/10. I found it a much better movie than The Passion of Joan of Arc (1928) which I watched recently. That movie had me like "oh this must be that iconic shot!" in every scene with Joan of Arc, didn't find any reason to finish it. Gave it a 2/10, tiring stuff. Again, I don't believe in such a thing as the common sense that The Passion of Joan of Arc is a superior movie because that's what the internet told me.

My ratings go like this:

10/10- Masterpiece. Only my favourite movie gets this rating.
9/10- Great. This is a movie is featured in my list of favourite movies. Right now only 110 out of 4280 movies watched got this rating.
8/10- Very good.
7/10- Good.
6/10- Fine.
5/10- Average.
4/10- Bad.
3/10- Very bad.
2/10- Horrible.
1/10- Shit.

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