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Is Netflix Destroying Cinema? [TALKING IMAGES]

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Onderhond
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#81

Post by Onderhond »

It is a bit akin to saying that the music industry is struggling because the e-sports culture is not contributing, or would be obviously better/more formatically interesting if tik-tokers or vtubers (or their fans) were involved.
But ... they are contributing/involved? Young kids are making music all the time.

I'm not expecting some famous e-Sporter or VTuber to suddenly change professions and start making films, what I'd like to see is people embedded in that culture to contribute to the film medium. So not like Korine making a film about the "YouTube generation" as a 40-year-old outsider, but someone from within that generation making films about (and for) its own generation.
but a consumer culture jumping in and revolutionising the medium has never happened - and does generally not happen anywhere in art.
I believe you're confusing timelines there, as many of the examples I've talked about (like hiphop or EDM) only became commercialized after they'd proven to be popular for a specific audience.
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St. Gloede
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#82

Post by St. Gloede »

Onderhond wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 11:17 am
It is a bit akin to saying that the music industry is struggling because the e-sports culture is not contributing, or would be obviously better/more formatically interesting if tik-tokers or vtubers (or their fans) were involved.
But ... they are contributing/involved? Young kids are making music all the time.

I'm not expecting some famous e-Sporter or VTuber to suddenly change professions and start making films, what I'd like to see is people embedded in that culture to contribute to the film medium. So not like Korine making a film about the "YouTube generation" as a 40-year-old outsider, but someone from within that generation making films about (and for) its own generation.
But are they e-Sporters or VTubers or fans? And does it at all matter? I'm sure there are plenty of directors interested in sports, chess, backgammon, pottery, etc. Does it matter? Is this a relevant point of interest? I really don't see/understand how it could be.

You are conflating young people and various sub-cultures
but a consumer culture jumping in and revolutionising the medium has never happened - and does generally not happen anywhere in art.
I believe you're confusing timelines there, as many of the examples I've talked about (like hiphop or EDM) only became commercialized after they'd proven to be popular for a specific audience.
[/quote]

I don't see how this is relevant to what we are talking about.

(And I don't think it's true - Hip Hop, as we know it, grew out of Rap and a whole range of other established music styles - and looking up Electronic Music, which I know nothing about, Wikipedia lists the 20s as the origins, and that thew rise of popular electronic music started in the late 60s, finishing in the early 80s. Under 60s-80s they list: Electronic rock, Synth-pop, Electropop, Electro music, and House music + Progressive rock, Krautrock, Space rock, and Contemporary electronic music)

Anyhow:

How I'm understanding what you are saying is: "Hey, wouldn't it be great if (young people) who like e-sports, vtubers, etc. got involved with films - that would drastically change the medium" - and I don't see how or why this is relevant. I'm not opposed to it, and I certainly want more young people involved - but what you are presenting feels betond irrelevant.

Looking at Hip Hop, EDM, etc. these things did not grow from a different consumer group. It is not like sports fans didn't think music was made for them and created EDM or Hip Hop. Both grew out of long-established music styles and cultures and then gained popularity to the point that we started to use different labels and sub-genres.

None of this has anything to do with what you are advocating for - i.e. people with entirely different interests and lack of familiarity with the medium getting involved - and then suddenly: an incredible innovation that changed the artform. This just doesn't (generally) happen. This is not the way an artform (generally) evolves. I personally can't think of a single time it has. I'm sure it may have, especially on a small scale - but in general, no, it is not happening - and in general, innovation comes from people who have a strong connection to the medium (or a strongly adjacent medium, like say an aeroplane manufacturer getting involved in cars, theatre people doing films, etc.).
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Onderhond
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#83

Post by Onderhond »

St. Gloede wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 2:26 pm You are conflating young people and various sub-cultures
Well yes, because I'm talking about youth-specific culture :D. Or "scenes" if you will. Maybe "scenes" is a better word? I dunno about the chess scene and their culture though, might be interesting too for cinema.
St. Gloede wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 2:26 pm (And I don't think it's true - Hip Hop, as we know it, grew out of Rap and a whole range of other established music styles - and looking up Electronic Music, which I know nothing about, Wikipedia lists the 20s as the origins, and that thew rise of popular electronic music started in the late 60s, finishing in the early 80s. Under 60s-80s they list: Electronic rock, Synth-pop, Electropop, Electro music, and House music + Progressive rock, Krautrock, Space rock, and Contemporary electronic music)
Again, it's all just primates banging on a tree. If 90s EDM is described as an evolution of Krautrock or Progressive rock, I must've lived in a different dimension when it all came to happen. I know there are traces there of older genres (we covered that before), but it has absolutely nothing to do with the culture/scene that developed back then, nor with the music that came from it. But clearly I'm unable to explain what it's like to live through such a thing. :)
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Torgo
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#84

Post by Torgo »

What about Blade (1998)? Popular big popcorn film, lots of electronic music (and no, not Krautrock or Kraftwerk :P ). Not particulary about "the scene", so not a raver film or something like that.
Intro
Blade's Entrance/the First Fight Scene (this surely sounds like The Prodigy, but it's Junkie XL)
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St. Gloede
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#85

Post by St. Gloede »

Onderhond wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 2:59 pm
St. Gloede wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 2:26 pm You are conflating young people and various sub-cultures
Well yes, because I'm talking about youth-specific culture :D. Or "scenes" if you will. Maybe "scenes" is a better word? I dunno about the chess scene and their culture though, might be interesting too for cinema.
St. Gloede wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 2:26 pm (And I don't think it's true - Hip Hop, as we know it, grew out of Rap and a whole range of other established music styles - and looking up Electronic Music, which I know nothing about, Wikipedia lists the 20s as the origins, and that thew rise of popular electronic music started in the late 60s, finishing in the early 80s. Under 60s-80s they list: Electronic rock, Synth-pop, Electropop, Electro music, and House music + Progressive rock, Krautrock, Space rock, and Contemporary electronic music)
Again, it's all just primates banging on a tree. If 90s EDM is described as an evolution of Krautrock or Progressive rock, I must've lived in a different dimension when it all came to happen. I know there are traces there of older genres (we covered that before), but it has absolutely nothing to do with the culture/scene that developed back then, nor with the music that came from it. But clearly I'm unable to explain what it's like to live through such a thing. :)
:lol: :lol: :lol:

If it is any consolation I'm clearly not speaking your language either - because something is completely lost in translation.

Your claim: We need unrelated "scenes" to get involved in artforms to bring on innovation. This is the main way this happens. It does not come from those already interested in film, music, etc.

My claim: No! This is completely irrelevant. Almost all innovation comes from people who are already invested in the medium, and they build on/react to influences/trends in the medium.

-

I am in other words attempting to refute your entire thesis - as I find it to be completely and thoroughly wrong. There just are no cases - not Hip Hop, not EDM, etc. where a subculture that was not overly interested in music felt that, to quote you, "the music being made was not for them" and then went out and made it based on their aesthetics - and created a new, large music scene. Same in film. This never happens. These interests can work in some minor notes here and there - especially in representation/depiction - but none of your examples show what you are talking about.

I don't think you get my critique.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I have stated your position back to you, as I understand it - and you seem to confirm what I believe: "i.e. infuse these scenes into an artform = evolution" and generally, this just does not happen - especially on a large, mainstream scale.
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Onderhond
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#86

Post by Onderhond »

Torgo wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 3:41 pm What about Blade (1998)? Popular big popcorn film, lots of electronic music (and no, not Krautrock or Kraftwerk :P ). Not particulary about "the scene", so not a raver film or something like that.
Intro
Blade's Entrance/the First Fight Scene (this surely sounds like The Prodigy, but it's Junkie XL)
I gave that one a 1.5*, so yeah. The opening scene is kinda nice, but even then it's pretty sloppy and hardly a good example of the case I'm trying to make. I mean, it sounds like they've dimmed the kicks to make the music less aggressive, the editor clearly didn't know what he was supposed to be doing (even though it's music that hits on the millisecond), the scene itself does not match the flow of the music at all ... it's a good example of dipping your teabag just once in hot water though :D

I think one 90s movie that did a very good job is Aronofsky's Pi, though that's more related to the IDM scene than the harder electronic dance styles that originated on our side of the Canal. The problem with a film like Pi as that it's just a one-off. B)

St. Gloede wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 4:39 pm Your claim: We need unrelated "scenes" to get involved in artforms to bring on innovation. This is the main way this happens. It does not come from those already interested in film, music, etc.
Well ... no. I'm not expecting some hiphop fan who has no interest in cinema at all to go out and make a movie :D

I'd want the hiphop fan who likes movies, but doesn't see their scene reflected in the movies - and has ideas about how to inject them into movies, to be able to go out and make movies. The hiphop fan who is deeply enbedded into the hiphop scene and thinks movies are great, but their individuals aspects are just 7s and 8s. Someone who has an idea how to bring the graffitti aesthetic into it. And toy with the editing so scenes flow more like hiphop rhymes. And take the angles and shots from hiphop videos and bring that into the game. And work in a soundtrack that flows flawlessly together with all these other elements. Bring the slang and raps into the dialogs.

And then ideally, he won't be making a film about the hiphop scene, but he'd match it with a type of film of which your more typical film buffs would say "this would never work together". Like ... some social drama? Sci-fi thriller? I dunno, the sky's the limit.

I mean, putting it like this ... we are generally convinced that lack of representation is hurting the medium, right? This is just about more niche and more targeted groups, rather than "race" or "gender". Which I think is even more interesting, as the would bring clearer and more developed cultures into cinema.
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Onderhond
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#87

Post by Onderhond »

As an example of this actually happening: Flying Lotus' Kuso.
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St. Gloede
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#88

Post by St. Gloede »

Onderhond wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 6:32 pm
St. Gloede wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 4:39 pm Your claim: We need unrelated "scenes" to get involved in artforms to bring on innovation. This is the main way this happens. It does not come from those already interested in film, music, etc.
Well ... no. I'm not expecting some hiphop fan who has no interest in cinema at all to go out and make a movie :D

I'd want the hiphop fan who likes movies, but doesn't see their scene reflected in the movies - and has ideas about how to inject them into movies, to be able to go out and make movies. The hiphop fan who is deeply enbedded into the hiphop scene and thinks movies are great, but their individuals aspects are just 7s and 8s. Someone who has an idea how to bring the graffitti aesthetic into it. And toy with the editing so scenes flow more like hiphop rhymes. And take the angles and shots from hiphop videos and bring that into the game. And work in a soundtrack that flows flawlessly together with all these other elements. Bring the slang and raps into the dialogs.

And then ideally, he won't be making a film about the hiphop scene, but he'd match it with a type of film of which your more typical film buffs would say "this would never work together". Like ... some social drama? Sci-fi thriller? I dunno, the sky's the limit.

I mean, putting it like this ... we are generally convinced that lack of representation is hurting the medium, right? This is just about more niche and more targeted groups, rather than "race" or "gender". Which I think is even more interesting, as the would bring clearer and more developed cultures into cinema.
If that's all, sure - representation and some aesthetic inspiration is positive (and I never claimed otherwise) - it is just that it has "never" really lead to revolution in any artform or medium before (as far as I can tell). Or, at the very least, that is not the way artforms usually develop. Which is at the heart of my confusion - i.e. how could this be key/important/be expected to lead to big changes when this doesn't happen?

Anyways, I hope this discussion has not turned people off talking Netflix. :D
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Torgo
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#89

Post by Torgo »

St. Gloede wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 8:26 pm Anyways, I hope this discussion has not turned people off talking Netflix. :D
.. :ph43r: ..
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cinewest
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#90

Post by cinewest »

My own take on the Netflix discussion is that they have been much more of a positive influence on cinema than a negative one (at least up until now), though I'm not sure that goes for the copycat producers like Amazon, and Apple, etc.

my argument rests on these observations.

1) There have been fewer and fewer movies beyond mainstream ones making it into theaters for quite a few years, and the "arthouse" movies that have gotten theatrical releases have become more and more mainstream, as well, which has meant that the only venues for films not included in this market are film festivals, and releases on dvd, which are not always easy to secure.

2) Netflix started out as a dvd rental company turned streaming service, turned film / video producer, and essentially filling a void with each step that they took. They have produced a wide variety of stuff in recent years in an attempt to reach all kinds of audiences, and in the process have not only provided well known names with opportunities to make dream films, but also supported many worthwhile projects of various sizes that might not have been made without them. In the process, they have given opportunities to scores of international filmmakers, as well as women and minority filmmakers. And a substantial portion of their productions have offered a real alternative to what has been produced elsewhere.
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#91

Post by Torgo »

Sounds agreeable :)
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Onderhond
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#92

Post by Onderhond »

So after Netflix restored that Welles film, Shudder now helped distribute a lost Romero (The Amusement Park). Can someone call Crunchyroll and ask them to finish Kon's Dream Machine?
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