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Kan Mukai

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Kan Mukai

#1

Post by TajSamKojiJesam » September 14th, 2018, 9:27 am

Has anyone heard of this director? I haven't until recently, but apparently he's an important one. The Wikipedia article on him is unusually detailed and the critics loved him. It seems that he directed nearly 200 films and produced around 500, which is pretty insane!

He was a pioneer of pinku films who often employed gimmicks to attract audiences - for example, Japan Virgin Rape (1970) had the first lady of Indonesia in its cast.

Now, I've only been able to find one movie by him - The Bite (1966), and I was quite impressed. It's an engaging and dark little psychosexual drama with some outstanding B&W cinematography. The only surviving copy has a crappy English overdub, but the movie is good nonetheless (the best pinku films are always the depressing ones anyway). It made me want to see more from him, but the rest of his opus seems impossible to find.

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#2

Post by fori » September 14th, 2018, 3:37 pm

Yeah I’ve only seen that one as well, pretty tame compared to even its contemporaries. Maybe it’s worth looking into his filmography in more depth. However, I would note I am the only iCM user to give a Kan Mukai film a thumbs up.
This sounds a bit too dismissive so I’ll add this: The Bite is probably one of the more atmospheric pink films I have seen.

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#3

Post by TajSamKojiJesam » September 15th, 2018, 8:16 am

Yes, it's tame compared to something like The Embryo Hunts in Secret, which came out the same year, but as you said there's a very lovely atmosphere of bitterness. So I don't think the comparisons with Wakamatsu are ungrounded.

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#4

Post by flaiky » September 15th, 2018, 4:30 pm

TajSamKojiJesam wrote:
September 14th, 2018, 9:27 am
He was a pioneer of pinku films who often employed gimmicks to attract audiences - for example, Japan Virgin Rape (1970) had the first lady of Indonesia in its cast.
That's seriously the name of a film?

:down:
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#5

Post by RBG » September 15th, 2018, 4:36 pm

lol flaiky. i've only seen one pinku, for a film cup on another forum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoom_In:_Rape_Apartments

it's a sequel to this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoom_Up:_Rape_Site

you don't want to watch these. then there's the ever popular

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape!_13th_Hour
A man sporting a red jacket seeks shelter at the gas station where he works. He is an anonymous serial rapist known as "Crimson" and is fleeing a vigilante group which has been pursuing him. "Crimson" and the younger gas station attendant later leave together and attack and rape a young ballerina. The incident has a life-altering affect on the younger man, who has now become addicted to rape. He also goes on a raping spree, and is joined with "Crimson" for further attacks. Together the men rape waitresses in an abandoned movie theater. Due to the inability of the police to catch the criminals, vigilante groups have been pursuing "Crimson". Eventually the duo are tracked down, captured, and taken to an empty swimming pool by a homosexual gang. There the gang sodomizes "Crimson", bashes out his teeth with a hammer, and forces him to perform fellatio on them
the japanese even have a rape video game :facepalm:

i've heard the arguments but i decline to view any more of it in search of artistic merit. i have a couple of wakamatsus laid away tho

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#6

Post by flaiky » September 15th, 2018, 5:10 pm

Jesus. That one you quoted is even in the Kinema Junpo official list (and has a 6-year-old comment/"joke" from MightySparks that, based on what she's shared on this forum, I'm sure she now deeply regrets).

And this Mukai guy, some his other film titles:

Rape Me! Big Battle
Torturing a Sensitive Spot
Raped Virgin's Diary: Female Beast

Yeah, fuck this guy.

To be honest, I find the idea that critics and film buffs treat this stuff with any sort of credibility pretty disgusting.
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#7

Post by TajSamKojiJesam » September 15th, 2018, 7:15 pm

Have people here never heard of the pink film genre? Nearly all of these films have rape either in their title or in their plot, and there's hundreds or thousands of them. That's nothing new.
flaiky wrote:
September 15th, 2018, 5:10 pm
To be honest, I find the idea that critics and film buffs treat this stuff with any sort of credibility pretty disgusting.
Very valuable input from someone who's never seen any of Mukai's movies.

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#8

Post by flaiky » September 15th, 2018, 7:58 pm

TajSamKojiJesam wrote:
September 15th, 2018, 7:15 pm
Have people here never heard of the pink film genre? Nearly all of these films have rape either in their title or in their plot, and there's hundreds or thousands of them. That's nothing new.
Oh lovely, that makes it okay then. :facepalm:

Can you not see how using rape as a selling point of a film is incredibly wrong? How about the film RBG linked to, in which the woman apparently becomes attracted to her rapist? Using the expression "Rape Me"?? Specially focussing on the rape of virgins??? That is dangerous, fucked up stuff and if I need to explain why then I despair. I don't need to see any of these films to make that judgement. Even the acclaimed Wakamatsu films have accusations of sadist misogyny and I'm not remotely surprised.

Porn is bad enough at objectifying women but the idea of this actually being promoted and accepted as "art" is maybe even more damaging.
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#9

Post by TajSamKojiJesam » September 15th, 2018, 8:30 pm

flaiky wrote:
September 15th, 2018, 7:58 pm
Oh lovely, that makes it okay then. :facepalm:
I don't see anyone claiming it's okay. I'm just surprised that others are surprised at this. I thought the existence of films like this was common knowledge in these circles?
flaiky wrote:
September 15th, 2018, 7:58 pm
Can you not see how using rape as a selling point of a film is incredibly wrong?
Again, I don't see anyone arguing that Japanese porn industry is run by saints or anything. We're talking about the quality of the films. No need to be a moral pillar regarding something that anyone can see is clearly fucked up.
flaiky wrote:
September 15th, 2018, 7:58 pm
I don't need to see any of these films to make that judgement. Even the acclaimed Wakamatsu films have accusations of sadist misogyny and I'm not remotely surprised.
If you haven't seen any Wakamatsu films, then don't discuss them as if you know what you're talking about. Go Go Second Time Virgin (1969) for instance, has a scene that criticizes the Japanese pornography industry's obsession with rape. His films also use sensationalist tactics, rape and violence to make a larger, usually social or political point and aren't just your usual porn. There's a reason why his films are critically acclaimed, beyond his technical prowess.

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#10

Post by themagician » September 15th, 2018, 8:55 pm

Here are excerpts from an interview with Wakamatsu by Romain Slocombe that may open up his films a bit:

On sex:
RS: Have you noticed any recent changes, watching the work of young
film-makers? Do you intend to try other styles of film?

KW: I often note that young directors show naked women in a solely
commercial purpose. I find them quite superficial. That’s why I rarely see
their movies. My director friends and I, if we made pinku eiga, it was to
express some kind of serious feeling. As for other film styles, I’d say I’ve
already tried them all.

EDITOR: So, if I understood you right, even in your pinku eiga, the main
subject wasn’t sex.

KW: Right. First, at the time, I wasn’t accepted by big production
companies. To make a movie, I was forced to work in the field of pinku
eiga. And my films had to be seen by the largest audience possible, so I
put some rather scandalous titles to attract a greater public, like Yuke,
Yuke, Nidome No Shojo. Reading the word “virgin”, people imagine
pornographic things and rush into the cinemas. What’s important is that
they are happy with what they saw, even if it wasn’t at all what they
expected, don’t you think?
RS: This intrigues me: in France or in England, a film or a comic showing
S/M and violence towards women, faces censorship. While the depiction
of sex scenes is widely tolerated. In Japan it’s the reverse situation isn’t it?

KW: Yes, to show S/M and violence in a film is perfectly OK. But for
love scenes, some limits have been fixed. Which means one can’t show
everything, you understand? At European film festivals, people often
laugh at Japanese movies, because the camera makes bizarre motions not
to show certain things. I feel sort of embarrassed each time a European
asks me: “What is the meaning of that rather brutal camera movement?”
Why must one hide sexual organs? I believe that in Japan sex is the
privilege of men who have power, like politicians, very rich people, etc.
They all have girlfriends, don’t they? In the past we Japanese were told:
“You the poor people, be content with eating rice.” And even now they say
to us: “Be content without seeing images of sex.” In the Edo period
everything was more broad-minded, from what I heard. It is after the Meiji
and Taisho periods that the authorities became very strict.

EDITOR: While S/M and violence still remained tolerated, as always in
Japan.

KW: Yes. Perhaps because authorities believe these things to be
absolutely normal.

EDITOR: I find that idea interesting, power monopolizing sex.

KW: That’s why in my films I enjoy making fun of power, by associating
it with sex.
On women:
KW: [...] Spectators of my films often notice my Oedipus complex. I wonder if this
personal tendency comes from my family situation during childhood. But
apart from that, I feel admiration towards womanhood in general.

ASSISTANT: Or rather, a complex of the “Holy Virgin”?

KW: Exactly. I seek comfort in womanhood as in the Holy Mother, or in
the Goddess Kannon [feminine incarnation of the Buddha of
mercifulness].

RS: Precisely, I was able to see your film Eros Eternal, or The Great
Goddess Of Mercifulness [Seibo Kannon Daibosatsu, 1977]. There too
one finds this woman, who appears from the sea.

KW: Yes. I admit to be a big admirer of women, if I reflect on the subject.
For me a woman is a being who understands me and accepts me totally
without me needing to explain myself. In my films one always finds a
yearning for a woman of infinite grace and kindness.

RS: This is perhaps a very Japanese theme?

KW: Yes. It certainly comes from the surroundings and situation during
my childhood.

EDITOR: There must exist some gap between that idealised woman, and
those of the real world...

KW: Yes, of course. There are plenty of differences. But I prefer to
continue seeking this ideal, rather than live in resignation.
On violence:
RS: Your films often deal with the relationship between a man and a
woman, and you always show it (evolving) in a rather violent way. In an
interview long ago, you said: “Between a man and a woman, there can be
nothing but war.” [Laughter]

KW: But yes, it’s like war, their relationship! Actually the relation lasts
longer when it’s more tense and when there is a distance between two
beings, don’t you think so?
On filmmaking:
EDITOR: Mr Slocombe, you mentioned the purity of the hero of Yuke, Yuke... ;
it’s purity which brings the hero to his death, isn’t it? Mr Wakamatsu, why does your hero
die at the end?

KW: ...That’s because I thought it was a more stylish resolution. For
example, I find Che Guevara very chic – I would have liked to live and die
like him! Unfortunately, I’m going to end as a mere film director. That’s
why I went as far as Palestine to shoot a film. Following the principles of
the film, the hero shouldn’t die. But I thought it would be a finer ending if
he died.

EDITOR: I believe the hero had to die in order to preserve his purity.

KW: I wasn’t conscious of it. Because I don’t use my brain much to do a
film. I only respect my feelings and my sensitivity. And very often, actors
don’t understand what I want. I find myself very instinctive, like an
animal. Never been to a cinema school, never learnt the cinematographic
technique. It’s by chance that I entered this profession. I had never
dreamed of it! Simply, I had the urge to create something, either a text,
either a film, by any means. I wished my desires to come true, for example
the desire to kill cops! [Laughter] I cannot do this in real life, of
course. But in a film I can exterminate a huge number of cops all at once.
There you are, I started making movies for a very crude motive.

On audience:
KW: Yes. But what matters is to attract as many people as possible into
the cinemas. After that, once they’ve realised it’s a success, then they
don’t complain any more.

RS: The more outré the movie was, the more it attracted an audience?

KW: Yes, students mainly but not the general public. People in general
would think my films were “dirty”. My main audience was therefore an
intellectual one, most of them being university students. On the other hand,
quite a lot of poor workers from the Sanya ghetto would come.
The full interview can be read in the book POP AVANT-GARDE VIOLENCE by Jack Hunter.

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#11

Post by flaiky » September 15th, 2018, 9:33 pm

You forced me to be a "moral pillar" by dismissing how disturbing those titles are and normalising this whole thing. Which I'm afraid you are continuing by saying "I don't see anyone arguing that Japanese porn industry is run by saints or anything. We're talking about the quality of the films." So some arty angles and nice lighting is more important than the dangerous messages and content? And linking sexual violence with erotica is absolutely, unequivocally dangerous.
If you haven't seen any Wakamatsu films, then don't discuss them as if you know what you're talking about. Go Go Second Time Virgin (1969) for instance, has a scene that criticizes the Japanese pornography industry's obsession with rape. His films also use sensationalist tactics, rape and violence to make a larger, usually social or political point and aren't just your usual porn. There's a reason why his films are critically acclaimed, beyond his technical prowess.
I can imagine that his films are the "better" version of this strange genre, which is why I emphasised "even Wakamatsu". But it only took googling his name and films to quickly find that multiple people have accused him of misogyny. I've read the plot points of his best known films, and why is he so obsessed with brutal violence towards women? And why are these included as "pink" films if they are not rooted in erotica (unlike, for example, Shohei Imamura, who also explores sexual deviancy to make wider points but would never be placed in this category (and also, might I add, never feels exploitative towards women)).

Those are mostly rhetorical questions as I can sense a "going round in circles" situation.
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#12

Post by flaiky » September 15th, 2018, 9:42 pm

@TheMagician - thanks, I made sure to read through those quotes. But sorry, to me they still include all sorts of problematic responses. Can highlight my issues tomorrow if we want to continue this.
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#13

Post by RBG » September 15th, 2018, 10:40 pm

wakamatsu and his pals were radical leftists and his films are very political. it doesn't make any of this ok but as you say, it will be a circular argument. for myself i'm not much for giallos or slasher genre either but i've seen feminists defend both

i'm not claiming most fans are watching pinku films for the political angle ofc. fwiw possession of child pornography was legal in japan until 2014

japan is ...different

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#14

Post by St. Gloede » September 15th, 2018, 10:59 pm

A have viewed a solid amount of Wakamatsu films, and unlike many other pink filmmakers his sex scenes and rape scenes seem to be shot in a very dead and repugnant way. His films are incredibly bleak, and are more self-aware. That said, they are still following the formula. The visuals are often great, but the content usually feels flat, gratuitus, silly and disturbing, but not in the way of Salo, and other films intending to be horrifying (even those with a darkly comedic wink), like most pink films there is still the clear idea that this should be for pleasure - at least that's my take.

Having said that, the hypernormalization of rape in Japanese cinema is extreme outside of this niche as well. Most of the new wavers kept using it in their films to the point that it is expected, and while I love the Japanese New Wave, this is a very off putting part about this period.

(Not seen anything from Mukai)

As for the interview hearing him talk about how the ideal woman is this all accepting and understanding foreign entity does explain quite a bit ...

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#15

Post by fori » September 16th, 2018, 12:05 am

I think the thing here is this: why are we so eager to condemn these sorts of films? Substitute sexual violence for regular old violence and most people would suddenly be all for violence glorifying action films.

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#16

Post by RBG » September 16th, 2018, 12:22 am

*sigh* most people might. i'm not all for films glorifying violence against women. as i said above

is this the part where you start calling us snowflakes and asking if we're triggered :/ let's not ok

you don't have the right to tell us how we should feel about things. i'm not calling for censorship; i just prefer not to watch them

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#17

Post by fori » September 16th, 2018, 12:31 am

I’m not deciding how you should feel, but flaiky is outright condemning those who watch this sort of stuff. I think people should think more carefully before they agitate against things they don’t like in this way.

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#18

Post by RBG » September 16th, 2018, 12:36 am

well i can understand why she finds it disturbing. if you can't then i don't know what to say

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#19

Post by fori » September 16th, 2018, 2:58 am

I didn’t say I don’t find this stuff disturbing. But that doesn’t mean I don’t think people should be able to watch it.

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#20

Post by TajSamKojiJesam » September 16th, 2018, 5:58 am

flaiky wrote:
September 15th, 2018, 9:33 pm
Which I'm afraid you are continuing by saying "I don't see anyone arguing that Japanese porn industry is run by saints or anything. We're talking about the quality of the films." So some arty angles and nice lighting is more important than the dangerous messages and content?
It's precisely the content which separates people like Wakamatsu, Adachi and (judging from that one film I've seen) Mukai from pointless exploitative pieces of crap like Zoom In: Rape Apartments and such. It's not like a movie's quality is judged just by "arty angles and nice lighting". Like I said, if you're not familiar with the movies, don't act holier-than-thou because you're put off by the titles or because you've read their plot outlines.

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#21

Post by TajSamKojiJesam » September 16th, 2018, 6:03 am

fori wrote:
September 16th, 2018, 12:05 am
I think the thing here is this: why are we so eager to condemn these sorts of films? Substitute sexual violence for regular old violence and most people would suddenly be all for violence glorifying action films.
This is an interesting question. It's obvious why sexual violence is off-putting, but why are movies which fetishize violence and murder so popular and beloved? Take Tarantino as an obvious example. His films are completely vacuous and the only thing they communicate is that violence looks cool and that throwbacks to older violent movies also look cool. And yet everybody loves him.

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#22

Post by maxwelldeux » September 16th, 2018, 6:43 am

Perhaps a bit off topic, but this has to be the single worst sales pitch for a director that I've ever heard.

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#23

Post by Ivan0716 » September 16th, 2018, 7:36 am

TajSamKojiJesam wrote:
September 14th, 2018, 9:27 am
He was a pioneer of pinku films who often employed gimmicks to attract audiences - for example, Japan Virgin Rape (1970) had the first lady of Indonesia in its cast.
Also slightly off topic, but I would assume that was before she became the First Lady? I mean they didn't just call up the First Lady of Indonesia and be like "Good afternoon ma'am, we would like to offer you a part in a movie called Japanese Virgin Rape." and got her to say yes, right!? :blink:

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#24

Post by mightysparks » September 16th, 2018, 7:43 am

flaiky wrote:
September 15th, 2018, 5:10 pm
Jesus. That one you quoted is even in the Kinema Junpo official list (and has a 6-year-old comment/"joke" from MightySparks that, based on what she's shared on this forum, I'm sure she now deeply regrets).
No? For a film tackling a dark and taboo topic like rape, you'd expect it to be engaging somehow. I don't remember the film anymore, but clearly I was not engaged.

And ok, my comment is maybe a little dark, but I knew what to expect going into the film, and it's exploitation cinema, so you know, you expect that it's going to at least be shocking or disturbing. And rape is still one of my favourite film themes, it's just that it makes me cry every time now instead of just being disturbed.
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#25

Post by TajSamKojiJesam » September 16th, 2018, 7:46 am

Ivan0716 wrote:
September 16th, 2018, 7:36 am

Also slightly off topic, but I would assume that was before she became the First Lady? I mean they didn't just call up the First Lady of Indonesia and be like "Good afternoon ma'am, we would like to offer you a part in a movie called Japanese Virgin Rape." and got her to say yes, right!? :blink:
Wikipedia's source for that claim is the book Japanese Cinema Encyclopedia: The Sex Films, by Thomas Weisser and Yuko Mihara Weisser, page 70. I haven't read the book, so I don't know the details. But I'd also like to know, it sounds too bizarre to be true.

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#26

Post by 3rd » September 16th, 2018, 8:11 am

"Japanese Cinema Encyclopedia: The Sex Films, by Thomas Weisser and Yuko Mihara Weisser, page 70."

"BLUE FILM:
ESTIMATION (1968)
[Aoi Film Shinasadame]
aka Woman In A Blue Movie

director: Hiroshi Mukai

Mitsugu Fujii . Noribiro Ohtani
Mari Nagisa . Risa Minakami
Mukai

**
An office girl (Mitsugu Fujii) inad-
vertently gets sucked into the world
of porn films by her boss (Noribiro
Ohtani). This was a hit movie, most­
ly due to a strong publicity campaign
focusing on the "shock" of a famous
movie star like Ms Fujii playing the
lead role in a pinku eiga. Director
Mukai often employed "hype" to sell
a film. He understood controversy
well and used it to give his films a
commercial edge. For example, he
hired the wife of the Indonesian pres­
ident to star in Japan Virgin Rape
(1970) and his Flesh 2 (1969) be­
came a whisper-hit due to the sex
scene between a Korean girl and a
black American GI on leave from
Viet Nam. His most notorious feature
is Deep Throat In Tokyo (1975)
{see separate entry}. Japanese critics
have often called Mukai "the only se­
rious rival of Koji Wakamatsu.""
Last edited by 3rd on September 20th, 2018, 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#27

Post by Gershwin » September 16th, 2018, 9:13 am

Making rape the unique selling point of a film is morally dubious, I agree. You don't have to see a film to make that judgement. Of course, it can turn out to be a good film in the end, but that doesn't justify the premise of making rape a sales technique. So you can still say "that's totally wrong" without actually judging people who decide to see the film.
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#28

Post by flaiky » September 16th, 2018, 1:12 pm

St. Gloede wrote:
September 15th, 2018, 10:59 pm
As for the interview hearing him talk about how the ideal woman is this all accepting and understanding foreign entity does explain quite a bit ...
THANK YOU that was one of the main things that disturbed me. Your (Wakamatsu) female characters always turn out to be kind and loving...What, after they've been violently raped? Uh.
fori wrote:
September 16th, 2018, 12:05 am
I think the thing here is this: why are we so eager to condemn these sorts of films? Substitute sexual violence for regular old violence and most people would suddenly be all for violence glorifying action films.
Actually, I'm increasingly turned off by films that glorify violence, especially slasher horrors. Watching Funny Games a year ago really opened my eyes to how bizarre it is that we get a thrill out of watching that stuff.

But yes, overall I'm far less troubled by horror films than I am by this pinky crap. I can believe that 99.999% of viewers will watch Halloween or Saw and not be tempted to duplicate the actions, or be influenced to any degree; I'm afraid that I don't have that same trust in men watching sexploitation. We still have a huge problem in society with women being viewed as sex objects. Me and all my female friends have a story of, at best, a partner getting too rough in sex, at "medium" of being groped by a stranger (which is still totally wrong and pretty traumatic), or at worst, being legitimately abused by a man. There's a reason it's called the "me too" movement - it has happened to practically every woman. Evidently there's a lot of men out there who think women exist for their pleasure, and some clearly get it in their heads that we secretly love it and are desperate for their cocks. Any resistance or "no" doesn't matter. A lot of the men caught up in the recent scandal swore they had no idea they were causing any pain. Where are these ideas coming from? Anything that perpetuates and normalises this attitude needs to stop.
fori wrote:
September 16th, 2018, 2:58 am
I didn’t say I don’t find this stuff disturbing. But that doesn’t mean I don’t think people should be able to watch it.
Why do you think people should watch it?
Last edited by flaiky on September 16th, 2018, 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#29

Post by fori » September 16th, 2018, 1:17 pm

I just want people to look at their own house before they make these kind of blanket statements. Let the individual who condemns the morals of every exploitation film cast the first stone.
Also whaaaaat? So you think these films should be banned? And your hyperbole with regard to film violence doesn’t go unnoticed. The fact is that violence is as real a problem as rape in society, and suggesting that people don’t commit violence as frequently as sexual assault based on personal experience is not credible. Yes rape is terrible, but other forms of violence are no walk in the park, and are very much present everywhere in society.

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#30

Post by flaiky » September 16th, 2018, 1:25 pm

My comments are not meant to undermine the seriousness of other crimes. You are just using whataboutism to deflect my points.
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#31

Post by fori » September 16th, 2018, 1:27 pm

No, I’m not, I’m exposing a double standard. You yourself just said violent films couldn’t possibly inspire violence. (Or rather in “99.999%” of cases it doesn’t)

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#32

Post by flaiky » September 16th, 2018, 1:54 pm

Well it's not really a double standard, is it, when I said I *am* bothered by films glorifying violence? Only recently I mentioned that I didn't like Django Unchained on a rewatch, and the comedy graphic violence was a part of it. It really doesn't jive with me anymore. But yes, I am more worried about the legitimate ramifications of films that fetishise sexual violence. Almost every women I know has experienced behaviour related to this; I don't know anyone who has been shot or stabbed. And before you continue this line of argument: yes, there is way too much gun and knife violence. That doesn't disprove my point.
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#33

Post by fori » September 16th, 2018, 2:03 pm

Well hold on just a minute. You said it is flat out wrong for people to watch those films and you implied they should be banned. Should we also ban Funny Games and Django Unchained? Or at the very least, should we scorn those who watch them? You may not know anyone who has been shot or stabbed, but I certainly know more than a few who have been put in the hospital.

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#34

Post by flaiky » September 16th, 2018, 2:32 pm

The whole point of Funny Games is to condemn people who watch it and to make you feel that shame. It's very effective and that's what makes it an important film. Would I rather Django-style violence in films stopped? Yes, I would actually.

Why do I judge people who watch pink films more than people who watch horror films, or gangster films? Because sex is meant to be a beautiful, mutually enjoyable thing and it's an inevitable part of life for almost everyone. Indulgently turning it into something abusive, and as a way of undermining 50% of the population, is sad and disturbing. I don't know why anyone would want to be a part of that.

As I said, this is going round in circles. You can have the last word fori, it's fine.
Last edited by flaiky on September 16th, 2018, 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#35

Post by themagician » September 16th, 2018, 2:55 pm

flaiky wrote:
September 16th, 2018, 2:32 pm
Why do I judge people who watch pink films more than people who watch horror films, or gangster films? Because sex is meant to be a beautiful, mutually enjoyable thing and it's an inevitable part of life for almost everyone. Turning it into something abusive, and as a way of undermining 50% of the population, is sad and disturbing. I don't know why anyone would want to be a part of that.
I feel very offended by such a statement and I want you to apologize to me and everyone else in this thread who watches pink films. To even insinuate I don't respect women as human beings is ignorant and reprehensible. I do not know how you can sleep well making such accusations about people you do not know. You should be ashamed.

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#36

Post by flaiky » September 16th, 2018, 3:05 pm

I think it's entirely possible that you're all lovely guys who would never disprespect a woman. I didn't say otherwise. I still think you should all reflect on the implication of these films.

For what it's worth, a lot of women would also watch these without considering how messed up they are. I might have a few years ago. We all internalise this sexism because it's so prevalent in society, but I'm desperate for it to change.
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#37

Post by RBG » September 16th, 2018, 10:00 pm

yikes i'm surprised no one said "men get raped too" :unsure:
We all internalise this sexism because it's so prevalent in society
this is the truth. a lot has changed in some ways and in others not much at all. we deal with it every day and it gets old

anyways not to start this up again :ph43r: i was involved in too many of these fights in the mubi forum

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#38

Post by cinephage » September 16th, 2018, 11:25 pm

I find it so strange, that one would accept movies with torture, murder, embezzlement or theft, but would frown on rape. Movies are fiction, stories, they sometimes describe dramatic and extreme situations, which can be fantasized. But you don't have to take it litterally. People can love the Towering Inferno, yet not approve of burning buildings. Fiction and reality are two different things, and their relationship is anything but binary.

One does not become a serial rapist because they have seen one too many pinku eiga...

Watching japanese movies from the seventies implies having the ability to put it into context. I'm not really into pinku, but I usually enjoy horrific movies with gory murders, yet I am absolutely non-violent. Why would watching a pinku turn me into a misogynistic pig ??? I don't feel comfortable with moral stances where one disowns viewers of their ability to form an opinion...

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#39

Post by RBG » September 16th, 2018, 11:38 pm

maybe the point is these films are made by and for men

i mean, you'll allow that these films couldn't be made today, at least outside of japan, right? and do you think that's because of political correctness gone too far or some shit. i did watch 'irreversible' which was really the last straw for me and now i avoid films with rape if possible. i also won't watch those cannibal holocaust movies. i did enjoy female prisoner scorpion. watched the whole 'yakuza papers' series and enjoyed it a lot. don't remember it being very rapey. i remember at mubi forum one guy said 'a boy & his dog' should be banned. i made a mental note. it's just a personal choice.

please allow that we may have different views on this subject as they are films made to exploit US

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#40

Post by fori » September 17th, 2018, 12:41 am

For all the moral posturing around this issue, the fact that these films are made “by men, and for men”, or saying that sex is “meant” to be good so that makes rape worse than physical violence (such a blanket statement I find cringeworthy, I can just imagine what a quadriplegic would think), there is no real justification for condemning people for watching a movie, or for saying said genre should be banned.

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