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New Official List Discussion

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Nathan Treadway
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#5441

Post by Nathan Treadway »

Fergenaprido wrote: April 5th, 2021, 6:37 pm
sol wrote: April 5th, 2021, 4:08 pm
Fergenaprido wrote: April 4th, 2021, 8:34 pm Three adoption request messages have been sent out.
I still don't know what to make of this.

Possibility #1 - the mods are adopting three lists and add IMDb's 2020s Top List as fourth

Possibility #2 - the mods are adopting three lists from others and one from themselves (I'm sure Ferg has a great Canadian list or two)

Possibility #3 - the mods are replacing a list without asking us for feedback on it (I hope that this isn't the case) *

Possibility #4 - the mods want to drive us nuts by having an odd number of lists and uneven columns on the Progress page :lol:

* Did they asking us about replacing a list recently? As in more recently than Russia? I vaguely recall something but not sure. :shrug:
I can confirm that one of those four possibilities is correct.
Probably the 4th one.
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#5442

Post by Nathan Treadway »

So, the TIFF list is definitely one of them?

Also, any clues to the rest?
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#5443

Post by dirty_score »

Yes, I think I've narrowed it down guys! (In b4 more cannes lists) :sweat:

Edda Award Best Film (Bíómynd ársins)
Stockholm International Film Festival: Bronze Horse
Jussi Awards

San Sebastián Film Festival: "Golden Shell"
Fantasporto Grand Prix - Best Film Award
Annecy Film Festival - Grand Prize / Annecy Cristal
David di Donatello - Best Film
International Film Festival Rotterdam - Tiger Award

Karlovy Vary Film Festival - Crystal Globe
Gdynia Film Festival - Golden Lions
Pula Film Festival - Big Golden Arena Award - Best Film

Thessaloniki international film festival - Golden Alexander
The International Antalya Golden Orange Film Festival
Nika Awards for Best Film

Cairo International Film Festival - Golden Pyramid
Ophir Award - Best Film

Montreal World Film Festival - Grand Prix des Amériques
Toronto Film Festival - People's Choice Award :ICM:
Canadian Screen Awards/Genie Awards: Best Motion Picture

Sundance Film Festival - Documentary Grand Jury Prize
Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature winners
Seattle International Film Festival - Golden Space Needle

Havana Film Festival - Grand Coral

Mar del Plata Film Festival - Ástor Piazzolla de Oro Winners
Cartagena Film Festival - Golden India Catalina Award - Best Film

Ottawa International Animation Festival Grand Prize Winners
Tokyo Film Festival - Sakura Grand Prix Winners
Blue Ribbon Awards Best Film
Mainichi Film Award Best Film
Blue Dragon Film Awards - Best Film
Motion Pictures Association of Korea - Grand Bell Award - Best Film
Taipei Golden Horse Film Festival and Awards - Best Film

AACTA Award for Best Film
Last edited by dirty_score on April 7th, 2021, 10:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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#5444

Post by Panunzio »

I should note that sadly I didn't receive any adoption requests this round, so at least 5 of those from that list aren't getting adopted.
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#5445

Post by mjf314 »

I received an adoption request for BIFF's Asian Cinema 100.
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#5446

Post by Onderhond »

mjf314 wrote: April 7th, 2021, 5:55 pm I received an adoption request for BIFF's Asian Cinema 100.
That would be thoroughly disappointing. Coverage of Asian cinema is clearly lacking, but that list brings nothing new to the table. Except more coverage of Asian cinema, which dulls the original argument :shifty:

Edit: would be worse still if it would replace the Tom Vick list :unsure:
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#5447

Post by mjf314 »

No, it's not replacing the Tom Vick list.

It brings something new in the sense that it'll be the only official list which is a general introduction to Asian cinema, but if you're talking about new official checks, then it doesn't bring much new.
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#5448

Post by Lilarcor »

It says in the description that the list will be updated every five years, I guess they never did that? Or is there a newer version of the list somewhere.
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#5449

Post by mjf314 »

They didn't update the list in 2020. They might have cancelled the update because of the pandemic, but I'm not sure.
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#5450

Post by pitchorneirda »

Lilarcor wrote: April 7th, 2021, 6:50 pm It says in the description that the list will be updated every five years, I guess they never did that? Or is there a newer version of the list somewhere.
This should have been updated last year, I'm not sure the festival took place at all with the pandemic.
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#5451

Post by Fergenaprido »

pitchorneirda wrote: April 7th, 2021, 6:59 pm
Lilarcor wrote: April 7th, 2021, 6:50 pm It says in the description that the list will be updated every five years, I guess they never did that? Or is there a newer version of the list somewhere.
This should have been updated last year, I'm not sure the festival took place at all with the pandemic.
The festival took place in a reduced format, but there was no list update. We were checking every few days in October to see.
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#5452

Post by Onderhond »

mjf314 wrote: April 7th, 2021, 6:20 pm It brings something new in the sense that it'll be the only official list which is a general introduction to Asian cinema, but if you're talking about new official checks, then it doesn't bring much new.
Ah yes, for the truly lazy among us!
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#5453

Post by kongs_speech »

Onderhond wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:04 pm
mjf314 wrote: April 7th, 2021, 6:20 pm It brings something new in the sense that it'll be the only official list which is a general introduction to Asian cinema, but if you're talking about new official checks, then it doesn't bring much new.
Ah yes, for the truly lazy among us!
I'm actually very grateful for this list. I want to explore the basics of Asian cinema, so this list is a hell of a lot less intimidating than the Vicks one. I can understand hardcore Asian cinephiles wanting a list that goes deeper, but this is great for novices and should be a fairly attainable platinum for anyone willing to invest the time.
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#5454

Post by Torgo »

Maybe would have appeared more natural to adopt them the other way round, but there we are, right. The Honds of this world can still thrive on completing Tom Vick (and waiting for the new Japan-one to become official ;) ).
I generally like user-friendly, manageable lists. Can see myself happily completing the 100 Essential Noirs, definitely not 900, the overblown list is completely useless for me. Now "Asian cinema" isn't a (niche) genre but still a rather exotic blind spot for some .. maybe it helps them.
Although it's really heavy on titles which stand in so many lists already. Well.
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#5455

Post by mjf314 »

Torgo wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:19 pm Maybe would have appeared more natural to adopt them the other way round, but there we are, right.
The Tom Vick list was adopted a few months before the BIFF list was published.
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#5456

Post by Onderhond »

There's always this. Just filter out the Asian-looking titles in the unchecked tab, there's your introduction.

But thank God you can now finally discover the wonderful world of Miyazaki, this magical creature nobody ever talked about except us odd Asian adepts. Or Ozu and Kurosawa. Who dat?

Even as an "introduction to Asian cinema" it's a pretty big failure, as it offer mostly (exclusively?) festival/arthouse favorites.
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#5457

Post by Ebbywebby »

kongs_speech wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Onderhond wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:04 pm
mjf314 wrote: April 7th, 2021, 6:20 pm It brings something new in the sense that it'll be the only official list which is a general introduction to Asian cinema, but if you're talking about new official checks, then it doesn't bring much new.
Ah yes, for the truly lazy among us!
I'm actually very grateful for this list. I want to explore the basics of Asian cinema, so this list is a hell of a lot less intimidating than the Vicks one.
Good thing it's being made official, because it's impossible to work on unofficial lists or use them as reference.

I hate redundant official lists.
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#5458

Post by mjf314 »

The whole point of lists is to make it easy to discover films. No one wants to spend hours browsing a list of 4000 films trying to figure out which ones are Asian. Especially not someone who's looking for an introduction.

The list includes both well known and lesser known films, just like I would expect from any country or region list. BIFF also covers 20 different countries, something that you wouldn't get from watching the top 100 Asian films on the most official lists.
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#5459

Post by kongs_speech »

Onderhond wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:25 pm There's always this. Just filter out the Asian-looking titles in the unchecked tab, there's your introduction.

But thank God you can now finally discover the wonderful world of Miyazaki, this magical creature nobody ever talked about except us odd Asian adepts. Or Ozu and Kurosawa. Who dat?

Even as an "introduction to Asian cinema" it's a pretty big failure, as it offer mostly (exclusively?) festival/arthouse favorites.
I get that you're disappointed, but that's unnecessarily rude to those of us who don't live and breathe Asian cinema. Everyone on this site knows who Miyazaki, Ozu and Kurosawa are. You're not presenting your case well at all.

As for "festival/arthouse favorites," that just tends to be what cinephiles prefer in general. They might not necessarily be "better" than more obscure genre films, depending on how one even measures such a subjective thing, but if you look at the poll we've just completed, it seems like what the user base of this site (the forum, anyway) overwhelmingly wants.
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#5460

Post by Torgo »

Ebbywebby wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:30 pm I hate redundant official lists.
Hate is a strong word.
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#5461

Post by mjf314 »

Ebbywebby wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:30 pm Good thing it's being made official, because it's impossible to work on unofficial lists or use them as reference.
You can't work on a list that you don't know about. Not everyone knows about every list. One of the purposes of official lists is to promote a variety of lists that people might be interested in.
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#5462

Post by Onderhond »

kongs_speech wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:33 pm I get that you're disappointed, but that's unnecessarily rude to those of us who don't live and breathe Asian cinema.
If you're truly interesting in Asian cinema, you don't need this list at all, unless, like I stated earlier, you're lazy and don't want to make any effort. The big names on this list are already adequately represented in other lists and have been arthouse staples for years. The lesser-known films are hardly essentials and are only there because they got people like Rosenbaum on board.
kongs_speech wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:33 pm but if you look at the poll we've just completed, it seems like what the user base of this site (the forum, anyway) overwhelmingly wants.
Well yes, if you only cater to a singular audience, you'll only end up with a singular audience on your website. Also, I wouldn't call something like Miike obscure, but clearly he isn't essential enough for this list, though multiple directors get 2 (even 3) entries on this list.
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#5463

Post by kongs_speech »

Onderhond wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:41 pm
kongs_speech wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:33 pm I get that you're disappointed, but that's unnecessarily rude to those of us who don't live and breathe Asian cinema.
If you're truly interesting in Asian cinema, you don't need this list at all, unless, like I stated earlier, you're lazy and don't want to make any effort. The big names on this list are already adequately represented in other lists and have been arthouse staples for years. The lesser-known films are hardly essentials and are only there because they got people like Rosenbaum on board.
kongs_speech wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:33 pm but if you look at the poll we've just completed, it seems like what the user base of this site (the forum, anyway) overwhelmingly wants.
Well yes, if you only cater to a singular audience, you'll only end up with a singular audience on your website. Also, I wouldn't call something like Miike obscure, but clearly he isn't essential enough for this list, though multiple directors get 2 (even 3) entries on this list.
Okay, I guess I'm lazy because I've only been doing the cinephile thing seriously for a couple years and because I try to watch films from all over the globe and not concentrate too much on one area. I don't know if you see how judgmental you're coming across, but it is seriously off-putting.
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#5464

Post by mjf314 »

Onderhond wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:41 pm
kongs_speech wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:33 pm I get that you're disappointed, but that's unnecessarily rude to those of us who don't live and breathe Asian cinema.
If you're truly interesting in Asian cinema, you don't need this list at all, unless, like I stated earlier, you're lazy and don't want to make any effort.
Couldn't you say the same thing about any list? If you're truly interested in anime, you don't need Paste. If you're truly interested in HK cinema, you don't need LoveHKFilm. If you're truly interested in modern Japanese cinema, you don't need Mark Schilling.

But what people need and what people find useful isn't the same thing.
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#5465

Post by Onderhond »

kongs_speech wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:54 pm I don't know if you see how judgmental you're coming across, but it is seriously off-putting.
I do see it, I just don't think I'm wrong.

If you want to get into Asian cinema, ICM already offers better tools to do so. On top of that this list is highly insufficient for that specific purpose, as it gives you a poor representation of the various aspects of Asian cinema. Using ICM it shouldn't take more than 5-10 minutes for everyone interested to create his own, personal recommendation list. If that's really too much trouble and you really need another superfluous list for that purpose, then yes I'm sorry, I think that's lazy.
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#5466

Post by Onderhond »

mjf314 wrote: April 7th, 2021, 9:00 pm Couldn't you say the same thing about any list? If you're truly interested in anime, you don't need Paste. If you're truly interested in HK cinema, you don't need LoveHKFilm. If you're truly interested in modern Japanese cinema, you don't need Mark Schilling.
Paste: Unique officials 57/104 (54.81%)
LoveHK: Unique officials 89/203 (43.84%)
Schilling: Unofficial films 166/236 (70.34%)

What these lists offer is unexplored territory for those using ICM as a discovery/introduction tool. They added something to the site that wasn't there before.

BIFF: Unofficial films 4/115 (3.48%)

This new list (virtually) doesn't. Pretty much every film on there has already been covered and is easily discoverable. And again, ICM itself already does a better job if you're really interesting in an introductory list.
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#5467

Post by mjf314 »

iCM doesn't have an "Asian movies" filter, so no, iCM does not do a better job.
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#5468

Post by Onderhond »

mjf314 wrote: April 7th, 2021, 9:20 pm iCM doesn't have an "Asian movies" filter, so no, iCM does not do a better job.
It does not indeed. But it takes about 5-10 minutes of work to get around that. If that's really too much, I call that lazy and hardly worth an official list.
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#5469

Post by mjf314 »

If you've already watched most of the movies and can recognize the titles, maybe it would take 5-10 minutes. For someone who's new to Asian cinema, maybe an hour.

And if you take the top 100 Asian films on the most official lists, it would cover about 8 countries. The BIFF list covers 20.
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#5470

Post by Mulholland »

dirty_score wrote: April 7th, 2021, 3:58 pm Yes, I think I've narrowed it down guys! (In b4 more cannes lists) :sweat:

Ophir Award - Best Film
Tokyo Film Festival - Sakura Grand Prix Winners
Sadly didn't get a request for either of mine.

Nice to see me on your list though :)
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#5471

Post by Onderhond »

mjf314 wrote: April 7th, 2021, 9:39 pm The BIFF list covers 20.
Yeah, but don't ask about Hong Kong, because you'll only get 3 Kar-Wai's and half a King Hu. Great introduction that :facepalm:

Looking at the list (and the introduction above the list), it's not even meant as an "introduction to ..." list though, so I'll just take that as sloppy paraphrasing. It's just another "by and for cinephiles" list, only centered around Asian cinema.
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#5472

Post by Timec »

It’s not this one (or anything else of mine.)
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#5473

Post by Torgo »

Oh man, Ondo :ermm:
Onderhond wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:25 pm But thank God you can now finally discover the wonderful world of Miyazaki, this magical creature nobody ever talked about except us odd Asian adepts. Or Ozu and Kurosawa.
Then would the list really come off better if they didn't include Miyazaki, Ozu and Kurosawa? Come on. It's obviously a short list of some of the most renowned, important, essential, acclaimed titles. Just what else would you expect?
mjf314 wrote: April 7th, 2021, 9:00 pm
Onderhond wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:41 pm
kongs_speech wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:33 pm I get that you're disappointed, but that's unnecessarily rude to those of us who don't live and breathe Asian cinema.
If you're truly interesting in Asian cinema, you don't need this list at all, unless, like I stated earlier, you're lazy and don't want to make any effort.
Couldn't you say the same thing about any list? If you're truly interested in anime, you don't need Paste. If you're truly interested in HK cinema, you don't need LoveHKFilm. If you're truly interested in modern Japanese cinema, you don't need Mark Schilling.
Of course this, also Kong made quite clear that he's not taking a deep dive into the cinematic landscape of that gigantic continent, just that it would/could be a helpful rough guide for a start, because that's what it is. (And not for the regular Joe, but the typical ICM crowd, which we know you like to derogate.) And it might be a neat feeling to get some pretty easy silver or gold medal while exploring, even if you don't go mainly by the BIFF list. That is part of the reason why we have the whole official and unofficial thing, after all.
Onderhond wrote: April 7th, 2021, 9:23 pm
mjf314 wrote: April 7th, 2021, 9:20 pm iCM doesn't have an "Asian movies" filter, so no, iCM does not do a better job.
It does not indeed. But it takes about 5-10 minutes of work to get around that. If that's really too much, I call that lazy and hardly worth an official list.
By that logic, who needs a silent film list? Just filter out everything 1896-1927 on TSPDT, the other 100(1)-lists and there you go.
I can also type "best anime" into Google and be fit for weeks of excessive viewing within 10 minutes.
That's not how the ICM list canon works.

I think we get there's not much value for you in the BIFF selection, alright. But why trash it for things it is not trying to be? Because ..
Even as an "introduction to Asian cinema" it's a pretty big failure, as it offer mostly (exclusively?) festival/arthouse favorites.
.. it's probably just this - a critics' selection from the Asiasphere with regards to several countries.


I just hope it doesn't push the still needed 2nd Japan list much more behind .. That's where I would feel cheated, too.
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#5474

Post by dirty_score »

Mulholland wrote: April 7th, 2021, 9:43 pm
dirty_score wrote: April 7th, 2021, 3:58 pm Yes, I think I've narrowed it down guys! (In b4 more cannes lists) :sweat:

Ophir Award - Best Film
Tokyo Film Festival - Sakura Grand Prix Winners
Sadly didn't get a request for either of mine.

Nice to see me on your list though :)
One day your time will come, too :cheers:
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#5475

Post by Lonewolf2003 »

iCM; the site for people who are too lazy to use google. :D :lol:
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#5476

Post by Torgo »

And got sick of having various .txt files and Excel spreadsheets when you can just work through everything in that great 2010-designed website :D
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#5477

Post by Onderhond »

Torgo wrote: April 7th, 2021, 10:04 pm Then would the list really come off better if they didn't include Miyazaki, Ozu and Kurosawa?
No, but is there a need to included multiple films of each director?

Look at the list again and you'll see it's really not an introductory list. The introduction of the list even mentions "hidden gems". There's no point coining it that way, so I don't think there's much point discussing that aspect of the list :)
Torgo wrote: April 7th, 2021, 10:04 pm By that logic, who needs a silent film list?
Both "silent" lists offer 15-20% uncovered territory. I'm no expert on the matter though, so I'm not going to make any snap judgement there.
Torgo wrote: April 7th, 2021, 10:04 pm .. it's probably just this - a critics' selection from the Asiasphere with regards to several countries.
Exactly, which is a super random priority if you ask me. With so many areas still not covered by ICM, let's do a random "what (Asian) arthouse folk like" list?
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#5478

Post by kongs_speech »

Torgo wrote: April 7th, 2021, 10:04 pm Of course this, also Kong made quite clear that he's not taking a deep dive into the cinematic landscape of that gigantic continent, just that it would/could be a helpful rough guide for a start, because that's what it is. (And not for the regular Joe, but the typical ICM crowd, which we know you like to derogate.) And it might be a neat feeling to get some pretty easy silver or gold medal while exploring, even if you don't go mainly by the BIFF list. That is part of the reason why we have the whole official and unofficial thing, after all.
I'm a trans chick, actually, but otherwise you've nailed it. I appreciate someone articulating my POV better than I did. :cheers:
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#5479

Post by Teproc »

I'm curious what you think the point of official lists is, Onderhond? A hint: the goal is not to give you, specifically, official checks so you can rise up in the rankings. I fail to see what else it is you're seeking, since clearly you don't seem to think the curation aspect is even worth talking about, seeing as anyone who could possibly need it is either stupid or lazy. I mean, I see why you're not interested in the BIFF list, that's fine. But in what sense would a more comprehensive list achieve anything more, by your own logic, since people can already find everything they need to in other ways?
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#5480

Post by mjf314 »

Onderhond wrote: April 7th, 2021, 10:15 pm No, but is there a need to included multiple films of each director?

Look at the list again and you'll see it's really not an introductory list. The introduction of the list even mentions "hidden gems". There's no point coining it that way, so I don't think there's much point discussing that aspect of the list :)
It's not like they were sitting at a table discussing how many Miyazaki films to include. It was a poll. 2 Miyazaki films got enough votes, so 2 Miyazaki films made the list.

It's an introduction in the sense that it's a non-overwhelming size (100), and includes essential films from a variety of countries. There's no rule that says an introduction can't include any hidden gems. If you're trying to make a list that covers all of Asia, then you have to include hidden gems, because some of those countries don't have any well-known films.
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