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Genre Cup - Initial Discussions

500<400, Favourite 1001 movies, Doubling the Canon, Film World Cup and many other votes
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Genre Cup - Initial Discussions

#1

Post by Gorro »

After the recent discussion in the final of the World Cup thread about a new World Cup, the consensus seems to be to wait, which I agree on.

I was wondering however whether there is enough animo here to start a different take on the competition to fill the void, namely a Genre Cup. My idea would be that a manager choses a subgenre which doesn't have a specific list representing it on iCM - think Superhero, Giallo, Adult or anything else that regularly shows up in discussing potential new lists for iCM or someone feels like managing.

The audience of this cup might be slightly different that the World Cup, since choosing genre films usually is a risk in the World Cup, but here it is the name of the game. That can make it a good fit to fill the gap between the World Cups. The people that need / want a break can do so, or just sporadically vote and some other people that don't participate in the World Cup might want to join this cup.

Some rules I have in mind, but up to debate:

- No limitations on amount of votes. This would potentially limit the need for specific new watches to put less strain on the watch priorities of participants in between World Cups
- Maximum 180 minutes runtime
- Only one film per director per season per manager
- 16 participating genres (to keep it a bit shorter that the World Cup and it is the first time, unless it is popular enough to expand)

So, anyone up for participating in this? Any other ideas on the rules?
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#2

Post by Onderhond »

This sounds like fun to me.
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#3

Post by beavis »

yes I would like to participate in something like this
(maybe first get an idea of general interest, before fleshing out ideas further)

one thing I would NOT hope for is a lot of discussions about genre definitions and what can be included, what not...
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#4

Post by sol »

I would participate and would be happy to manage a subgenre.

That said, I disagree with getting rid of 1000 check cap. Maybe increase it to 1500 or 2000, but a cap is is needed. Otherwise, whoever puts up their hand for space exploration (for example) could too easily win their first round simply by nominating the forum's #1 film. :shrug:
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#5

Post by Gorro »

sol wrote: March 9th, 2021, 11:06 am That said, I disagree with getting rid of 1000 check cap. Maybe increase it to 1500 or 2000, but a cap is is needed. Otherwise, whoever puts up their hand for space exploration (for example) could too easily win their first round simply by nominating the forum's #1 film. :shrug:
What about a maximum number of official lists cap instead? A number of checks cap might vary too much per genre?
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#6

Post by sol »

Gorro wrote: March 9th, 2021, 11:09 am
sol wrote: March 9th, 2021, 11:06 am That said, I disagree with getting rid of 1000 check cap. Maybe increase it to 1500 or 2000, but a cap is is needed. Otherwise, whoever puts up their hand for space exploration (for example) could too easily win their first round simply by nominating the forum's #1 film. :shrug:
What about a maximum number of official lists cap instead? A number of checks cap might vary too much per genre?
That works - and might even be better. Especially if we set the bar a number that will force punters to look beyond the obvious choices. I think a 2 Official Lists maximum might work.
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#7

Post by Coryn »

I'd like to join as a participant, not as a manager.
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#8

Post by joachimt »

I'll play. I agree on a limit of official lists. Good idea.
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#9

Post by Onderhond »

I agree with the limit too. Not an issue for me, but it's nice to make the competition a bit fairer I guess.
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#10

Post by Lakigigar »

I'd like to join too, but i've never participated in the "world cup". I also agree with the limit, although i also think we need a checks cap on top of that, because a lot of superhero movies really aren't on a lot of official lists (although I suppose few will pick mediocre Marvel superhero blockbusters for a genre cup, and if they will, it will quickly lose it's first round because it's not really an original pick).

That being said, a 1000 checks cap feels very restrictive. A movie like Doctor Strange has 13000+ checks. I suppose 2500 or even 5000 checks cap would work.
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#11

Post by Onderhond »

Will the managers be allowed to pick a genre, or will we discusses genres first and assign managers to the list of 16 we end up with?
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#12

Post by Gorro »

Onderhond wrote: March 9th, 2021, 1:38 pm Will the managers be allowed to pick a genre, or will we discusses genres first and assign managers to the list of 16 we end up with?
Haven't thought about that. Any preferences?

I'm leaning towards letting the managers choose.
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#13

Post by OldAle1 »

I think I might be too lazy to want to be a manager but I think I might be up for participating as a viewer at least. Certainly it depends to some extent on the actual genres. And I agree that an official check cap would help; as far as the blockbusters go, a lot of them just have 1 or 2 (the box office lists) so some of them would still probably get through as possibilities if we don't have a total # of checks cap as well. Guess I don't much care about that, I don't really expect most managers would be picking films with 10k checks, and if one or two slip through I don't see it as a big deal.
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#14

Post by Onderhond »

Gorro wrote: March 9th, 2021, 1:42 pm Haven't thought about that. Any preferences?

I'm leaning towards letting the managers choose.
Me too (of course :D), but I don't know what others are thinking.
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#15

Post by Gorro »

OldAle1 wrote: March 9th, 2021, 1:44 pm And I agree that an official check cap would help; as far as the blockbusters go, a lot of them just have 1 or 2 (the box office lists) so some of them would still probably get through as possibilities if we don't have a total # of checks cap as well. Guess I don't much care about that, I don't really expect most managers would be picking films with 10k checks, and if one or two slip through I don't see it as a big deal.
I feel the same way about the blockbusters. I don't expect too many to show up as choices as well and if they do, they might increase participation a little since it is easier for a passerby to just watch one movie to be able to vote than two (or more). And number of votes doesn't correlate that much with quality (when limited by # of official checks), especially with this forum's audience.

I usually get burnt out by a World Cup by the end, since I have to watch 80% of the movies that are selected and I have other watching priorities. So I'm usually glad if I see a matchup where I've already seen a film.
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#16

Post by mightysparks »

Too lazy to be a manager but it sounds super fun and I’d definitely participate. Cool idea :thumbsup: I think there should be a vote cap though just to keep things interesting. I haven’t participated in a cup for a long time but it’s much nicer to have films to discover rather than just voting on films you’ve already seen.
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#17

Post by pitchorneirda »

I thought that if we ever had a "genre" cup, it would be like a regular cup but restricted to one genre only, not that the genres would compete between them. And the latter would bring way more long and tiring discussions.

Also I fear that holding a smaller cup would delay even further the holding of the "main" cup because everyone would want a long break between 2 cups, even if one is smaller.
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#18

Post by Onderhond »

pitchorneirda wrote: March 9th, 2021, 2:53 pm but restricted to one genre only
So what would be competing? Niches within a main genre? Or the managers themselves?
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#19

Post by pitchorneirda »

Onderhond wrote: March 9th, 2021, 2:55 pm
pitchorneirda wrote: March 9th, 2021, 2:53 pm but restricted to one genre only
So what would be competing? Niches within a main genre? Or the managers themselves?
Still countries I guessed
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#20

Post by Onderhond »

Oh ... that could be an option too of course. Shows how little I participated in the regular World Cup :whistling:
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#21

Post by joachimt »

pitchorneirda wrote: March 9th, 2021, 2:56 pm
Onderhond wrote: March 9th, 2021, 2:55 pm
pitchorneirda wrote: March 9th, 2021, 2:53 pm but restricted to one genre only
So what would be competing? Niches within a main genre? Or the managers themselves?
Still countries I guessed
This was brought up now and then in the WC indeed: country cup with only one genre for all movies. It's been monty's running joke for years to do a sex comedy cup.

I think Gorro's idea works better to get enough participation, although you might wonder what the winner actually means. Is that the genre we love the most?
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#22

Post by Onderhond »

joachimt wrote: March 9th, 2021, 3:05 pm I think Gorro's idea works better to get enough participation, although you might wonder what the winner actually means. Is that the genre we love the most?
Much like the regular WC cup, it has more to do with the choices of the manager than anything else, no?
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#23

Post by Gorro »

pitchorneirda wrote: March 9th, 2021, 2:53 pm I thought that if we ever had a "genre" cup, it would be like a regular cup but restricted to one genre only, not that the genres would compete between them. And the latter would bring way more long and tiring discussions.
I don't think that works. For that to work you either have to choose very general genres, or only have countries with very broad film industries. I fear combining the two would force some managers to submit the only movie that fits the genre criteria (or bend the genre definition too much to even find a fitting movie leading to the same discussions you fear here). It would lead to managers submitting a movie they themselves do not even recommend, wasting everybody's time.
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#24

Post by OldAle1 »

Mmm the more I think about this the more I think that yeah, putting a bunch of disparate genres against each other is pointless. What does it mean, or "prove" or really even say about those genres? Although I do agree that you'd have to have fairly broad genres for it to be workable to use just one. Besides comedy, drama, romance and animation - which are all fairly universal, though animation is certainly a bit more restricted, I think you could get away with

Action - which could include martial arts, samurai, some westerns and war movies, some gangster films, blaxploitation - pretty wide range there and I'm leaving out lots of areas I'm sure

Horror - don't need to go into all the subgenres here, pretty popular almost everywhere - even the middle east and Africa have some

Science fiction/fantasy - could include kaiju films, "epic" fantasy like LOTR, lots of animated stuff of course, afterlife fantasies, metaphysical/cerebral SF like Tarkovsky or Lopushansky

I don't really think in other words that it would be that hard to stick to one broad genre, plenty of variation among these. I could also add musical but I think I'd be the only one, or one of only a couple of people, interested in that.
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#25

Post by Gorro »

OldAle1 wrote: March 9th, 2021, 4:06 pm Mmm the more I think about this the more I think that yeah, putting a bunch of disparate genres against each other is pointless. What does it mean, or "prove" or really even say about those genres?
To me not any more pointless than pitting countries against each other. I thought the appeal of the cup competitions is to discover recommendations from a manager that you normally wouldn't prioritize. I don't see a meaningful difference in restricting managers based on country vs subgenre.
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#26

Post by OldAle1 »

Gorro wrote: March 9th, 2021, 4:14 pm
OldAle1 wrote: March 9th, 2021, 4:06 pm Mmm the more I think about this the more I think that yeah, putting a bunch of disparate genres against each other is pointless. What does it mean, or "prove" or really even say about those genres?
To me not any more pointless than pitting countries against each other. I thought the appeal of the cup competitions is to discover recommendations from a manager that you normally wouldn't prioritize. I don't see a meaningful difference in restricting managers based on country vs subgenre.
Well, maybe that's why I never participated in the country world cup. :lol:

I do get your point; I guess it'd just be more interesting to me, personally, if all the films have at least a little something in common. I guess that isn't an issue for a lot of people, given the popularity of the WC but it's just the way my mind works, "anything goes" just isn't my jam.
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#27

Post by Onderhond »

Dunno, with just 16 participating genres you only need 4 entries to win, so I think it should be easy enough to work with smaller niches? If you pick martial arts, it shouldn't be very hard to find four good recommends for it as a manager. Even something distinct and limited like Kaiju or Cyberpunk should be fairly easy to play. My vote would go to playing smaller genre niches, but I'm okay if we go for something broader. I'll even take on Asian music/musical if need be :D

It proves nothing of course, then again the WC didn't prove anything either. If you put me in charge of Japan there, I can tell you right now it's not going to reach the finale. That doesn't reflect on Japan as a country, it just says something about me as a manager.
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#28

Post by joachimt »

Gorro wrote: March 9th, 2021, 4:14 pm
OldAle1 wrote: March 9th, 2021, 4:06 pm Mmm the more I think about this the more I think that yeah, putting a bunch of disparate genres against each other is pointless. What does it mean, or "prove" or really even say about those genres?
To me not any more pointless than pitting countries against each other. I thought the appeal of the cup competitions is to discover recommendations from a manager that you normally wouldn't prioritize. I don't see a meaningful difference in restricting managers based on country vs subgenre.
You might be right, but "Poland wins" sounds a lot more logical than "blaxploitation wins". :lol:
In the end it's indeed about discovering movies and the rest is just a bit of silly internet fun.

I agree with OH: smaller niches. Don't pick action or romance as a genre.
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#29

Post by mjf314 »

I like the idea, but I'm not sure if I'll participate. Recently I haven't had much time for movies, because I've been having so much fun watching anime series.
Gorro wrote: March 9th, 2021, 11:09 am
sol wrote: March 9th, 2021, 11:06 am That said, I disagree with getting rid of 1000 check cap. Maybe increase it to 1500 or 2000, but a cap is is needed. Otherwise, whoever puts up their hand for space exploration (for example) could too easily win their first round simply by nominating the forum's #1 film. :shrug:
What about a maximum number of official lists cap instead? A number of checks cap might vary too much per genre?
I prefer a checks limit, because it tells you which films aren't well-known, and therefore which films need promotion.

What's the point of excluding a film that's on 3 official lists, if it only has 200 checks? If there's a good film with 200 checks, then it needs the promotion.
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#30

Post by mjf314 »

pitchorneirda wrote: March 9th, 2021, 2:53 pm I thought that if we ever had a "genre" cup, it would be like a regular cup but restricted to one genre only, not that the genres would compete between them. And the latter would bring way more long and tiring discussions.

Also I fear that holding a smaller cup would delay even further the holding of the "main" cup because everyone would want a long break between 2 cups, even if one is smaller.
I think both ideas are interesting.

For example, a comedy-only cup is interesting because a lot of people avoid picking comedies in the main cup. But if it's only 1 genre, it needs to be a popular genre. Otherwise there won't be enough participants.

A cup with many genres competing is interesting because it gives people a chance to explore different genres (or sub-genres) that they might not be familiar with. It also gives the manager a chance to try to convince the forum that a particular genre is interesting.
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#31

Post by Mario Gaborović »

I see this cup as a perfect chance to promote films that otherwise wouldn't win in a World Cup, which IMO should be reserved for the best. Like a place for interesting stuff too risky to compete with in a long-running tournament.

I mainy think of comedies and horrors, but also something I'm not fan of, such as blockbusters and sci-fi.
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#32

Post by zzzorf »

I'm in. I like the ideas thrown up above and will compete in any of them as a manager. Another thought though, why not just make a Manager's Cup, not representing anything in particular just putting manager vs manager. Anything is free game to choose as long as say it is under 500 checks and no official lists, a way to get underseen things promoted for things like 500<400 and DtC but also allowing us the freedom to get movies we want seen across.
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#33

Post by sebby »

OldAle1 wrote: March 9th, 2021, 4:06 pm Mmm the more I think about this the more I think that yeah, putting a bunch of disparate genres against each other is pointless. What does it mean, or "prove" or really even say about those genres? Although I do agree that you'd have to have fairly broad genres for it to be workable to use just one. Besides comedy, drama, romance and animation - which are all fairly universal, though animation is certainly a bit more restricted, I think you could get away with

Action - which could include martial arts, samurai, some westerns and war movies, some gangster films, blaxploitation - pretty wide range there and I'm leaving out lots of areas I'm sure

Horror - don't need to go into all the subgenres here, pretty popular almost everywhere - even the middle east and Africa have some

Science fiction/fantasy - could include kaiju films, "epic" fantasy like LOTR, lots of animated stuff of course, afterlife fantasies, metaphysical/cerebral SF like Tarkovsky or Lopushansky

I don't really think in other words that it would be that hard to stick to one broad genre, plenty of variation among these. I could also add musical but I think I'd be the only one, or one of only a couple of people, interested in that.
This idea is what I would prefer. The disparate genre idea feels a little scattershot, lacking some kind of connective element. To add to your list there's neo-noir/crime, documentaries, even shorts though they are not technically a genre, etc.
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#34

Post by Mario Gaborović »

zzzorf wrote: March 18th, 2021, 4:55 am I'm in. I like the ideas thrown up above and will compete in any of them as a manager. Another thought though, why not just make a Manager's Cup, not representing anything in particular just putting manager vs manager. Anything is free game to choose as long as say it is under 500 checks and no official lists, a way to get underseen things promoted for things like 500<400 and DtC but also allowing us the freedom to get movies we want seen across.
Yeah! That means anything from any country by any director from any genre, and something we still care about. Also good opportunity for those who never get to manage big countries in the WC because of the 'top 8 from previous cup' rule.
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#35

Post by blocho »

joachimt wrote: March 9th, 2021, 3:05 pm It's been monty's running joke for years to do a sex comedy cup.
I didn't think he was joking!
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#36

Post by joachimt »

blocho wrote: March 18th, 2021, 3:57 pm
joachimt wrote: March 9th, 2021, 3:05 pm It's been monty's running joke for years to do a sex comedy cup.
I didn't think he was joking!
You never knew with monty.
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