iCM Forum's Favourite Silent Movies, 2nd edition : Nomination - Closed - Processing Results

Tim2460 · #1

iCM Forum's Favourite Silent Movies

Nominations topic

6 years ago, for the first time, we chose our favorite Silent movies, now it's (about) time to do so again.

The deadline for submitting your list is going to be set @ Sunday 29 November 2020

- Movies must obviously be ... Silent. As Alison said on the first instance of the Poll :
- Films should be from the silent period. The "silent" Brakhage films usually have no sound and The Artist has some dialogue at the end, so these films are disqualified. If there's any question, feel free to discuss it here.
-

IMDb-lists or

iCM-lists are accepted. (If you can't make one of those, ask another user to help you out.)
- Lists can be any length.
- Each nominee can only be named once (of course)
- Your list may be ranked, unranked, or partially-ranked. In a partially-ranked list, the top X films are ranked and everything after that point is unranked. When not specified I will consider a list as ranked.

Some help :

The 2014 Nomination Thread, Hosted by Mighty

The Old 300 List

54 Participants : click to toggle

Please check if your list is stated, ordered and linked correctly. And is set to public. For iCM lists you can also set it to "Friends" and befriend me.

pitchorneirda · #2

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/pitc ... horneirda/

Ranked.
I know it's short but I don't want to list films I don't really care about.

Perception de Ambiguity · #3

https://www.imdb.com/list/ls086222756/

rnilsson19 · #4

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/stum ... /greennui/

Torgo · #5

Wow, I actually participated in the 2014 poll and can just enhance my old list .. cool. Might post it later, turning this edition into another "popularity poll"

[edit]Interesting, I see that Modern Times (1936) got a 100ish rank in our last edition, an unexpectedly late silent film - or is it, really?
In the German Wikipedia, there are two paragraphs discussing if it is. The English version stays -

- rather silent concerning that.

gromit82 · #6

Torgo wrote: ↑November 8th, 2020, 4:49 pm Wow, I actually participated in the 2014 poll and can just enhance my old list .. cool. Might post it later, turning this edition into another "popularity poll"

[edit]Interesting, I see that Modern Times (1936) got a 100ish rank in our last edition, an unexpectedly late silent film - or is it, really?
In the German Wikipedia, there are two paragraphs discussing if it is. The English version stays - - rather silent concerning that.

I wasn't around for that poll, but apparently the eligibility of Modern Times was disputed. If it had been definitely eligible, it would probably have placed much higher, and if it had been definitely ineligible, it wouldn't have placed at all.

Torgo · #7

Yep, that's why I felt to stress that it was ranked 100ish. I think people would naturally not vote for it, I mean there are enough undisputed worthy candidates to choose from.

Mysterious Dude · #8

https://www.imdb.com/list/ls086087526/ (all ranked)

I was born for this!

joachimt · #9

Can we agree on a year when the silent period ended? Modern Times?

Torgo · #10

joachimt wrote: ↑November 8th, 2020, 7:39 pm Can we agree on a year when the silent period ended? Modern Times?

When you sort our last edition by year of release, out of 300 titles, only 5 are newer than from 1933 and Modern Times is already debatable.
Sure, why not. I guess most of the users understand the idea of the poll and don't start voting for experimental shorts from the 1980s or Minuscule.

joachimt · #11

Torgo wrote: ↑November 8th, 2020, 7:45 pm
joachimt wrote: ↑November 8th, 2020, 7:39 pm Can we agree on a year when the silent period ended? Modern Times?
When you sort our last edition by year of release, out of 300 titles, only 5 are newer than from 1933 and Modern Times is already debatable.
Sure, why not. I guess most of the users understand the idea of the poll and don't start voting for experimental shorts from the 1980s or Minuscule.

Sure, but at least agreeing on a year helps me to know where to cut off my ratings to start working on my list.

rnilsson19 · #12

Chaplin sings in Mordern Times, no? I'd file it with The Artist as ineligible.

beavis · #13

https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/favo ... is/beavis/

iCheckMovies · #14

rnilsson19 wrote: ↑November 8th, 2020, 7:51 pm Chaplin sings in Mordern Times, no? I'd file it with The Artist as ineligible.

This is a really weird view to me. I don't understands how elements of sound stops a film from being a silent. I can see the case clearer for Modern Times, but The Artist is a silent through and through - it is only at the final second where a word is uttered to mark the passage into the sound period. Claiming The Artist is not a silent is like claiming Yellow Submarine is not animation - on the basis that in the final seconds the real Beatles are seen.

It may be because I view silent as a genuine genre/aesthetic as opposed to a limitation, but if a film is predominantly a silent, with silent it should be counted as silent - just as animation films, with elements of live action - should not be disqualified from an animation list - hell - Who Framed Roger Rabbit even gets listed as animation without too many complaints.

Also, if we want to be strict like this we'd need to exclude Sunrise too (and whenever this debate comes up no one seems to want to exclude sunrise - despite having a sound scene - being overwhelmed by honking cars/yells in town).

Lonewolf2003 · #15

joachimt wrote: ↑November 8th, 2020, 7:39 pm Can we agree on a year when the silent period ended? Modern Times?

Problem is that the end of the silent period differs in different countries. Japan f.e. continued to make silents longer than the USA did.

Mysterious Dude · #16

Lonewolf2003 wrote: ↑November 8th, 2020, 10:20 pm
joachimt wrote: ↑November 8th, 2020, 7:39 pm Can we agree on a year when the silent period ended? Modern Times?
Problem is that the end of the silent period differs in different countries. Japan f.e. continued to make silents longer than the USA did.

Still, if it's going to be a rule that "films should be from the silent era," that era should probably be defined.

I'm in favor of using 1936 as the cutoff, and Modern Times being eligible, but anything post-1936 would be disqualified.

iCheckMovies · #17

Just to clarify, is this a silent movie poll or a silent era poll?

(Won't make a major difference either way, there are so few post-silent era silents, and most are not particularly well-known, but a few would get into my list. The wording was a little odd as Brahage films are just avant garde/experimental films without sound, not what I would consider silent, and The Artist was excluded for having a line of dialogue - what about Dr. Plonk, Juha, Blancanieves, etc.).

Lonewolf2003 · #18

Mysterious Dude wrote: ↑November 8th, 2020, 11:06 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: ↑November 8th, 2020, 10:20 pm
joachimt wrote: ↑November 8th, 2020, 7:39 pm Can we agree on a year when the silent period ended? Modern Times?
Problem is that the end of the silent period differs in different countries. Japan f.e. continued to make silents longer than the USA did.
Still, if it's going to be a rule that "films should be from the silent era," that era should probably be defined.

I'm in favor of using 1936 as the cutoff, and Modern Times being eligible, but anything post-1936 would be disqualified.

I think it’s not necessary, cause people can decide for themselves well enough in the spirit of the rule if a silent is part of the silent era or non-silent era silent. But if you really want to put a cutoff date on it, I would put it later, at the end of the 30s, so 1939. Everything before that can still be seen a (very) late silent era entries.

Lonewolf2003 · #19

St. Gloede wrote: ↑November 8th, 2020, 11:17 pm Just to clarify, is this a silent movie poll or a silent era poll?

(Won't make a major difference either way, there are so few post-silent era silents, and most are not particularly well-known, but a few would get into my list. The wording was a little odd as Brahage films are just avant garde/experimental films without sound, not what I would consider silent, and The Artist was excluded for having a line of dialogue - what about Dr. Plonk, Juha, Blancanieves, etc.).

Silent era. At least that’s how I understand what it says in the OP:

Films should be from the silent period.

Lonewolf2003 · #20

joachimt wrote: ↑November 8th, 2020, 7:48 pm
Torgo wrote: ↑November 8th, 2020, 7:45 pm
joachimt wrote: ↑November 8th, 2020, 7:39 pm Can we agree on a year when the silent period ended? Modern Times?
When you sort our last edition by year of release, out of 300 titles, only 5 are newer than from 1933 and Modern Times is already debatable.
Sure, why not. I guess most of the users understand the idea of the poll and don't start voting for experimental shorts from the 1980s or Minuscule.
Sure, but at least agreeing on a year helps me to know where to cut off my ratings to start working on my list.

You can advance search on “silent” sound mix on IMDb. That might help.

iCheckMovies · #21

Lonewolf2003 wrote: ↑November 8th, 2020, 11:26 pm
St. Gloede wrote: ↑November 8th, 2020, 11:17 pm Just to clarify, is this a silent movie poll or a silent era poll?

(Won't make a major difference either way, there are so few post-silent era silents, and most are not particularly well-known, but a few would get into my list. The wording was a little odd as Brahage films are just avant garde/experimental films without sound, not what I would consider silent, and The Artist was excluded for having a line of dialogue - what about Dr. Plonk, Juha, Blancanieves, etc.).
Silent era. At least that’s how I understand what it says in the OP:
Films should be from the silent period.

Yes, that's why I asked. It did not seem to be a conscious decision but based on an idea that silent films made after X date aren't silent films (i.e. Brakhage and the one line in The Artist).

rnilsson19 · #22

St. Gloede wrote: ↑November 8th, 2020, 9:56 pm
rnilsson19 wrote: ↑November 8th, 2020, 7:51 pm Chaplin sings in Mordern Times, no? I'd file it with The Artist as ineligible.
This is a really weird view to me. I don't understands how elements of sound stops a film from being a silent. I can see the case clearer for Modern Times, but The Artist is a silent through and through - it is only at the final second where a word is uttered to mark the passage into the sound period. Claiming The Artist is not a silent is like claiming Yellow Submarine is not animation - on the basis that in the final seconds the real Beatles are seen.

It may be because I view silent as a genuine genre/aesthetic as opposed to a limitation, but if a film is predominantly a silent, with silent it should be counted as silent - just as animation films, with elements of live action - should not be disqualified from an animation list - hell - Who Framed Roger Rabbit even gets listed as animation without too many complaints.

Also, if we want to be strict like this we'd need to exclude Sunrise too (and whenever this debate comes up no one seems to want to exclude sunrise - despite having a sound scene - being overwhelmed by honking cars/yells in town).

To me Modern Times and The Artist aren't really silents but films (comedies/drama) in the style of a silent film. A silent film for me is a film from the
silent era and it was over in the US by the time Chaplin made Modern Times. So, both are essentially homages to an era that had already passed.

1935 (Ozu's last silent) is where I would personally draw the line.

prodigalgodson · #23

What about ones like Vertov's Enthusiasm, which has no dialogue or diegetic sound (? -- that I remember), but does have a built-in score on its sound track?

Carmel1379 · #24

https://www.imdb.com/list/ls086249424/

iCheckMovies · #25

St. Gloede wrote: ↑November 8th, 2020, 11:42 pm
Lonewolf2003 wrote: ↑November 8th, 2020, 11:26 pm
St. Gloede wrote: ↑November 8th, 2020, 11:17 pm Just to clarify, is this a silent movie poll or a silent era poll?

(Won't make a major difference either way, there are so few post-silent era silents, and most are not particularly well-known, but a few would get into my list. The wording was a little odd as Brahage films are just avant garde/experimental films without sound, not what I would consider silent, and The Artist was excluded for having a line of dialogue - what about Dr. Plonk, Juha, Blancanieves, etc.).
Silent era. At least that’s how I understand what it says in the OP:
Films should be from the silent period.

Yes, that's why I asked. It did not seem to be a conscious decision but based on an idea that silent films made after X date aren't silent films (i.e. Brakhage and the one line in The Artist).

I don't remember how we decided on the reasoning for The Artist, but the intent of the original poll was silent era.

Edit: also the OP says I hosted the original poll, but it was allisoncm...

iCheckMovies · #26

https://www.imdb.com/list/ls055848409/

Apparently I haven't loved a silent film since I watched Spione in February 2014...

prodigalgodson · #27

Carmel1379 wrote: ↑November 9th, 2020, 1:00 am https://www.imdb.com/list/ls086249424/

No go on Revelateur or Meshes, it seems.

Teproc · #28

Why would this poll be using explicit restrictions when basically every other poll is just people coming up with their own list with whatever restrictions they believe and seeing how it all turns out in the end?

Tim2460 · #29

mightysparks wrote: ↑November 9th, 2020, 1:02 am Edit: also the OP says I hosted the original poll, but it was allisoncm...

Hmmm True : as you were the one uploading the ICM List i Assumed wrongly you were the host as well. I'll corect OP.

I agree with Teproc on the subject : it's hard to create 100% bulletproof set of rules for an pool, and too complicated rules could frighntened people to not post their List.

This Silent question should be easier to manage than the Mini Series argument Or the 40's films filmed on the 40's but released after.

I could extract the proposed Lists @ the end of a week and monitor film that seems really off so we could talk about them here ?

Not sure i can extract the sound Mix from IMDB or OMDB easily but i could check the obvious errors there.

The artist is IMDB "DTS Sound Mix" for ex

Tim2460 · #30

Got to read the 2 originals Threads to feel the ambiance back then, i usualy read them before starting a Pool but was short of time this time.

iCheckMovies · #31

Yes, I agree as well. It is better to open it up to all silents/voter discretion, rather than exclude 20ish films, most of which have nowhere near the views to make it.

joachimt · #32

But at least let's agree that it's about the silent era and not about movies without sound. Don't leave that to the voters discretion. Carmel already voted for Revelateur and Meshes for example.

Onderhond · #33

Teproc wrote: ↑November 9th, 2020, 8:07 am Why would this poll be using explicit restrictions when basically every other poll is just people coming up with their own list with whatever restrictions they believe and seeing how it all turns out in the end?

Maybe because some prefer polls with restrictions and don't trust voter discretion

Lonewolf2003 · #34

@Tim: It's poll, not pool

Teproc · #35

Onderhond wrote: ↑November 9th, 2020, 11:35 am
Teproc wrote: ↑November 9th, 2020, 8:07 am Why would this poll be using explicit restrictions when basically every other poll is just people coming up with their own list with whatever restrictions they believe and seeing how it all turns out in the end?
Maybe because some prefer polls with restrictions and don't trust voter discretion

I disagree but sure, that's reasonable... but why would this poll break the norm all of a sudden? What's different this time that the rules should be different?

I have absolutely no idea why this would be restricted to the silent era, that makes no sense to me.

Onderhond · #36

Teproc wrote: ↑November 9th, 2020, 11:40 am I disagree but sure, that's reasonable... but why would this poll break the norm all of a sudden? What's different this time that the rules should be different?

I have absolutely no idea why this would be restricted to the silent era, that makes no sense to me.

Dunno? The revolution has to start somewhere?

(also, it seems the rules were just copied from the original poll, which ran 6 years ago?)

As for why, I assume most people would consult the results of a poll like this to find films from the silent era they missed, not to be reminded of The Artist. Or the be confronted with some Brakhage.

joachimt · #37

Teproc wrote: ↑November 9th, 2020, 11:40 am
Onderhond wrote: ↑November 9th, 2020, 11:35 am
Teproc wrote: ↑November 9th, 2020, 8:07 am Why would this poll be using explicit restrictions when basically every other poll is just people coming up with their own list with whatever restrictions they believe and seeing how it all turns out in the end?
Maybe because some prefer polls with restrictions and don't trust voter discretion
I disagree but sure, that's reasonable... but why would this poll break the norm all of a sudden? What's different this time that the rules should be different?

I have absolutely no idea why this would be restricted to the silent era, that makes no sense to me.

Every poll has restrictions. A poll about the 60's is restricted to movies from the 60's. A poll about shorts has a runtime restriction. We don't leave everything to the voter's discretion.
Maybe we shouldn't decide on a year, like I asked earlier, but at least be clear whether it's a poll about the silent era or a poll about movies without sound. Don't leave that open. This is no different from other polls. The scope should be clear.

joachimt · #38

Teproc wrote: ↑November 9th, 2020, 11:40 am I have absolutely no idea why this would be restricted to the silent era, that makes no sense to me.

A poll about movies without sound would make no sense to me.

Lonewolf2003 · #39

Tim2460 wrote: ↑November 9th, 2020, 10:47 am
mightysparks wrote: ↑November 9th, 2020, 1:02 am Edit: also the OP says I hosted the original poll, but it was allisoncm...
Hmmm True : as you were the one uploading the ICM List i Assumed wrongly you were the host as well. I'll corect OP.

I agree with Teproc on the subject : it's hard to create 100% bulletproof set of rules for an pool, and too complicated rules could frighntened people to not post their List.

This Silent question should be easier to manage than the Mini Series argument Or the 40's films filmed on the 40's but released after.

I could extract the proposed Lists @ the end of a week and monitor film that seems really off so we could talk about them here ?

Not sure i can extract the sound Mix from IMDB or OMDB easily but i could check the obvious errors there.

The artist is IMDB "DTS Sound Mix" for ex

I don't think you will have to make the rules to complicated (assuming it's still about Silents from the Silent era); a small edition that the silent era ended in the mid-late 30s, will in my view give users enough of a guideline to make their list, while having also enough leeway to decide for themselves.

joachimt wrote: ↑November 9th, 2020, 11:33 am But at least let's agree that it's about the silent era and not about movies without sound. Don't leave that to the voters discretion. Carmel already voted for Revelateur and Meshes for example.

I think almost all voters understand that Silent movie doesn't equal Movie without sound, and experimentall movies without sounds aren't what we're voting/looking for in this poll. Besides with the addition I suggested above this would already be solved (mostly). There might still be a few stubborn voters who vote for no sound experimental movies, but those most probably won't make the list. And if they do Tim could discuss such questionable entries.

Teproc · #40

We have a 1920s poll, and may soon have a "pre-1920s" poll. I don't see the point of a Silent Era poll then. I very much see the point of a Silent Movies poll in looking at what are our favorite films that are silent... whatever era they were made in? I'm not sure what's so wrong about people being "reminded of The Artist" aside from you not liking it (presumably), but it's not like it's the only post-1928 silent either, not to mention the difficulty of pinpointing the end of the "silent era" is a way that isn't US-centered.

The hypothetical person browsing the list would, in my mind, be interested in seeing what the "best" silent films are. That seems pretty straightforward to me. Films like Modern Times and The Artist are debatable not because of the era they were made in, but because they do use sound at some points, that is an issue I do think is a little thornier.

ETA: I was responding to Onderhond there, a few posts popped up in between.